Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

Good Seed and Omake Spreadsheet Rules:

Firstly, if you have questions about Good Seeds and the like please read here. If that doesn't answer your question please ping me in thread, or on Discord.

If you write a new Good Seed, or write an omake, please update the spreadsheet if you have access.

If you do not have access, please ping a collaborator (Swordomatic, Alectai, Quest, TehChron, Insane-Not-Crazy, Humbaba, ReaderOfFate, Kaboomatic, no., BungieONI) letting them know what you want and they will update the spreadsheet here. To gain access, you will need a gmail account of some kind. Throwaway emails are fine (I'm using one for the spreadsheet), but to gain access it's as simple as sending me either your email via PM, via DM in Discord, or just in Discord's #spreadsheet-requests channel.

This is mandatory. If a Good Seed does not record their omake by pinging collabs (or just requesting access and editing things themselves - this is the preferred option), I won't give out awards. If a new Good Seed is not recorded here, they won't advance. By doing this it makes the whole thing manageable for me - it's gotten pretty unwieldy!

-----------------------

Omake Writer Instructions:

There are four fields you need to fill out.

Omake Link, which is just a link to your first omake for the turn. This makes it easier for me to read them as I do the update - without this it's tough to know off the bat which omake were written this turn, and to properly

Requested Bonus, which is your requested bonus for your omake. You can leave it up to me if you like. You can see more info in the Good Seed infopost here.

Cultivation Aims. For those following unorthodox paths - higher than 9th Heavenstage or later than 7th Dao Pillar paths. Please put in what you are aiming for before you break through. I have left it as 'default'. If you do not edit it, I'll go with that.

Turn Notes - Do you want to do something specific? Enter a Secret Realm? Help the Clan out in some way? If you have something specific you want to accomplish on this turn, put it in turn notes so I can adjust your Fate around it.

All other fields are for QM use to record character information to properly run the flow of the game.

 

[Insane-Not-Crazy]

I don't doubt that we would still win, but I'm worried that with a substantially weakened force we'd either take grievous losses among our army to achieve victory, or we'd risk one of our Nascents being crippled or killed. Why not mitigate those risks and attack with as strong a force as possible?

Click to shrink...

I'm honestly not wedded to the idea because we have some other mitigation. The main reason I'm considering it is that our conventional forces aren't what is going to decide the battle. Even with those Legions we're looking at a timeline of about a century. Honestly we're not concerned with losses by our forced but the speed of their advance. Pound for pound even at the start of the quest our baseline troops beat out Jingshen's without all the general boosts. Our Nascents hold absolute superiority in the mid small realm and enough ability to retreat at early. Nothing our conventional forces do can change that dynamic

 

[Katana1515]

Can someone tell me why people think it's a good idea to start a war with the Jingshen whilst deploying our best Array-Engineers and several legions on another front? I'm not being snarky or anything, it's just that I genuinely don't understand the rationale here.

Click to shrink...

Its definitely a riskier play, but the pay off is not inconsiderable. Word on the Discord from Occi confirms none of those legions are the ones our Marshal has earmarked for the invasion, so its not depleting our initial attack force.

If the war drags on, lacking those fighters might become a problem, but the gamble is that our new Nascent strength is going to bring things to a conclusion relatively quickly.

Plus, the reward for that action is pretty amazing. The intel, legitimacy, and influence that will come with that council seat is hefty. Moreover, that diplomatic cred is likely to make securing a profitable peace deal and ensuring stable relations with the RP after the war much more likely.

Its walking a fine line, but thats what we have been doing since turn 1.

 

[Algalon]

I don't doubt that we would still win, but I'm worried that with a substantially weakened force we'd either take grievous losses among our army to achieve victory, or we'd risk one of our Nascents being crippled or killed. Why not mitigate those risks and attack with as strong a force as possible?

Click to shrink...

I don't think we need to worry too much about them. Remember our recent few forays into their lands -

The Scorpion Cavalry managed to raid and cripple their forts at our borders without a modicum of resistance. These were supposed to be the hardpoints that should hold off an invasion from us. Instead we found the garrison undermanned, unmotivated, rampant corruption, and the massive Spirit Cannons either requiring maintenance or not having sufficient Spirit Stones to fire.

Their intrigue crit-fail later on then revealed that this seems to be a regular sight across the Jinshen lands. Old Man Jingshen suffers from some serious nepotism and suppresses all servants and vassals of his clan, while leaving his own children free reign with their frivolities.

The Jingshen have gotten complacent to holding two aces that we could not content with - 1. They had the Nascent Soul advantage, and 2) They had the Righteous Path ensuring their independence
Now neither of these two aces hold true anymore. We have three to their two Nascent Souls now, turning it into our favor, and the Righteous Path is too busy with the Demon Annihilating War and cannot afford to intefere without either risking the flow of Spirit Stones being cut off, or the Golden Devils recalling their contribution to the Verdant South, which would leave it undefended to the Cannibals.

While it would be foolhardy to think of this as a "Back by Christmas" situation, I do not think it's going to turn into a "Trenches of Verdun" either.

 

[TehChron]

Can someone tell me why people think it's a good idea to start a war with the Jingshen whilst deploying our best Array-Engineers and several legions on another front? I'm not being snarky or anything, it's just that I genuinely don't understand the rationale here.

Click to shrink...

In a conventional fight it doesnt matter if you bring a world champion boxer or just a regular professional one to fight a baby.

Either way it's going to be disgustingly one sided. That's how weak the Jingshen infamously are in a fight.

This fights going to be decided at the Nascent level regardless, so it doesnt matter if we bring our best when we hold the advantage there anyway. Thus. We deploy in such a way to maximize our benefits and up our exit strategy as much as possible.

 

[Insane-Not-Crazy]

While it would be foolhardy to think of this as a "Back by Christmas" situation, I do not think it's going to turn into a "Trenches of Verdun" either.

Click to shrink...

While Jingshen are honestly bad at fighting word from Occipitallobe is that we're not very mobile ourselves so while we can handily beat them it's more like an inexorable advance rather than a steamroll. Thus we're aiming to decapitate or cripple their Nascents so that ours can come out to play freely massively speeding up the attack.

 

[Garlak]

So. You know how at the start of the game, we picked one Combat Skill and one Profession for the Sect or Clan? To denote what our Clan's strength and expertise would be in?

I wonder if in the future, if we spend Clan actions and spend money on it, and do well on Missions to integrate Jingshen people and lands and infrastructure and organizations, if we'd be able to add the "Merchants" secondary profession to our Clans assets and strength?

Of course, combat alone doesn't define you. What sorts of profession do you and your juniors engage in to make money?

Pick from one of the below as a Sect or Clan profession. You will have other professions in your Clan or Sect, but this one is your primary accomplishment.

Click to shrink...

[ ] Merchants - A simple path, but good merchants make a good amount of money, and have access to many goods at decent prices. The merchant path offers no great bonuses, but the moneymaking potential is high and there are no penalties otherwise.

Click to shrink...

I know, I know. The reason the Combat Skill and Profession can't really change over the course of the game is because it's not just what you have a legacy and tradition for, but also 'What does your Sect or Clan spend all its focus on, all its time on?' If you make a Clan or Sect split its focus and time, you simply get less effective.

But. If you conquer an entirely new Sect or Clan... well then. That has the potential to change things, doesn't it?

Now, there's the obvious caveat of course. If you don't make an effort to integrate or make use of the people and their well-practiced and ancient professions and skills... if your people look down on the newly-conquered territories as just barbarians or look down on them for not having the skills and values and traditions that your own people have... Not to mention the whole goddamn issue of the whole "huge war of conquest" thing; they're going to be at "subjugated enemy" rather than "vassal" for a while.

But. Assuming the war goes well. Assuming we win.

And assuming we can afford to take the time and focus and money to devote to this endeavor... Could it be possible?

I am picturing it as being difficult and requiring dedication and sacrifice -- of spending focus on one thing and missing out on other things. Because if we're trying to convert the Jingshen or make use of their strength without doing so in a way that's just "Yeah we're the overlords and we're making you work for us and taxing all your shit" way...

Well that, or, I guess we do go the "Look at me, I am the Captain now" path and have them focus on the merchant profession and just tax them lots. That'll be faster and require less work. And "less work and less focus" is important when we have an impending Great Era to deal with.

It's just, it also sort of leaves the sort of cultural and demographic issue. Of having conquered a population, and then how do you treat it, or etc.


All this of course pre-supposes we win and take over their lands and avoid all the diplomatic SNAFU from it.

 

[Sparsebeard]

We can only take land as fast as our armies can take it.

Even, if we defeat or contain both Jingshen Nascent Souls, but still have take send our armies to take city by city. Which, by word of our Elder, we are not ready to do in a short war unless we make it targeted. So we basicly have the choice of a short targeted war or a long slog that will almost certainly impact spirit stones deliveries to the great battlefield.

Plus, by sending our best array-masters to the front we are basicly giving the Righteous Path the way to make a point and cripple our foundation if they feel like we stepped over their line in the sand.

And it's very possible for Old Jingshen to still have some nasty cards to play we don't know about.

 

[TehChron]

And it's very possible for Old Jingshen to still have some nasty cards to play we don't know about.

Click to shrink...

That's why we kill him first tbh.

There's no way hes going to be ready for Manuel wielding the Stone Spear, running straight to him.

His trump card is assuredly the intended flash raising of Nascent Souls, but ascendance takes time. He might have other stuff to try and reverse things in a straight fight, but theres no way they're a match for the Stone Spear.

 

[no.]

We can only take land as fast as our armies can take it.

Even, if we defeat or contain both Jingshen Nascent Souls, but still have take send our armies to take city by city. Which, by word of our Elder, we are not ready to do in a short war unless we make it targeted. So we basicly have the choice of a short targeted war or a long slog that will almost certainly impact spirit stones deliveries to the great battlefield.

Plus, by sending our best array-masters to the front we are basicly giving the Righteous Path the way to make a point and cripple our foundation if they feel like we stepped over their line in the sand.

And it's very possible for Old Jingshen to still have some nasty cards to play we don't know about.

Click to shrink...

You've got it backwards; we're doing them yet another huge favor after having already done them several. Sending them our array-masters is how we say "Shut up and bear with it for a bit, we'll do this as cleanly as we can."

If they choose to kill the guys we sent, that will require Nascent intervention, which will mean less hands to suppress the Devil Bees and even more rampaging across the Verdant South.

Besides, a smooth, unstoppable advance is better than a blitzkrieg when it comes to a clean transition of power. There's less needless destruction, we simply push them back over and over until they collapse, seizing and making use of their assets as we go.

 

[Algalon]

We can only take land as fast as our armies can take it.

Even, if we defeat or contain both Jingshen Nascent Souls, but still have take send our armies to take city by city. Which, by word of our Elder, we are not ready to do in a short war unless we make it targeted. So we basicly have the choice of a short targeted war or a long slog that will almost certainly impact spirit stones deliveries to the great battlefield.

Plus, by sending our best array-masters to the front we are basicly giving the Righteous Path the way to make a point and cripple our foundation if they feel like we stepped over their line in the sand.

And it's very possible for Old Jingshen to still have some nasty cards to play we don't know about.

Click to shrink...

This is cutting the nose to spite the face, though.

The Righteous Path are in a stalemate with the Noble Devil Alliance (although in a slighly favorable position). Now the Cannibals are raising a new Regional Power in the Verdant South, risking a new front opening. This is why they're asking for our masters - so we can hold the Verdant South while they deal with the Alliance.

Killing our masters not only leaves the Verdant South undefended (this is why they are asking for them in the first place), it would also leave the Righteous Path out of position (because they need an army to deal with our army), which the Noble Devil Alliance is certain to capitalize on.

Also, there is the threat of us cutting off the Scorpion Road. This would spell the doom of the Demon Annihilating War - the Righteous Path would no longer be able to sustain the current tempo of campaigning without Spirit Stones and start suffering tremendous attrition, while the Blood Path would be unaffected because they do not need Spirit Stones to replenish their Qi or use their artifacts.

They do not care nearly enough about the Jingshen - or hate the Golden Devils enough - to seriously consider committing what is essentially suicide. This whole Jingshen-Optimatoi conflict is just a nice system they set up to keep the Spirit Stone prices low.

 

[afterthought53]

I thought it was stupid too, but TehChron makes a good point about how if the Righteous Powers interfere we can backstab them in turn with the forces we sent out.

Click to shrink...

Or they can destroy our best and most veteran legions piecemeal which would be caught strung out along the frontline. We need our best and brightest here supporting the clan in this war not off on the Frontline relieving pressure from the Righteous faction or being used as hostages if they aren't obliterated openly or due to 'blood path' enemies.

 

[no.]

Or they can destroy our best and most veteran legions piecemeal which would be caught strung out along the frontline. We need our best and brightest here supporting the clan in this war not off on the Frontline relieving pressure from the Righteous faction or being used as hostages if they aren't obliterated openly or due to 'blood path' enemies.

Click to shrink...

The only way the Righteous Powers could do that is if they were to 1. Send in a Nascent, causing them to lose battles elsewhere. Or 2. Abandon them to fight by themselves, in which case the survivors of the initial betrayal can just abandon the war effort and march home, leaving the Hedge Maze to expand. Either of those options hurt them in the short-term, whereas accepting our help assists them in the short-term.

The legions we're sending there also aren't our frontline fighters. They are specifically defensive warfare and array-crafting specialists, whereas the invasion forces are our offensive specialists. So this action will not weaken our initial push into Jingshen.

 

[TehChron]

Or they can destroy our best and most veteran legions piecemeal which would be caught strung out along the frontline. We need our best and brightest here supporting the clan in this war not off on the Frontline relieving pressure from the Righteous faction or being used as hostages if they aren't obliterated openly or due to 'blood path' enemies.

Click to shrink...

You kinda vastly misunderstand that we already endure those types of losses every 5 turns or thereabouts.

And no, we dont need those legions here right now. Also you misunderstand who would be held as a hostage here.

 

[Sirrocco]

Or they can destroy our best and most veteran legions piecemeal which would be caught strung out along the frontline. We need our best and brightest here supporting the clan in this war not off on the Frontline relieving pressure from the Righteous faction or being used as hostages if they aren't obliterated openly or due to 'blood path' enemies.

Click to shrink...

If they turn on and destroy a force that was sent to aid them in response to SPS's desperate plea, we cut the scorpion road. Simple as that. The SPS loses quite a lot of face, the Devil Bees get some sort of opportunity handed to them, and the poison-crushing siege goes from "bad" to "brutal".

Now, losing those guys will hurt if it comes down to a coalition coming after us... but it's also going to be kind of brutal for them. Also, we'll still have a seat on that council... assuming the SPS aren't going to break their word twice. That will, at the very least, allow us to point out to them what they're doing, and probably sow some dissension within the ranks.

 

[afterthought53]

You kinda vastly misunderstand that we already endure those types of losses every 5 turns or thereabouts.

And no, we dont need those legions here right now. Also you misunderstand who would be held as a hostage here.

Click to shrink...

Our centennial losses are spread throughout our cultivators not just our best and brightest. I'd even say the best and brightest survive more than our average guys baring outliers like the super foundation cultivator that showed up last time.

As for hostages, our guys aren't strong enough or concentrated enough to be the ones taking hostages. Unless you mean we're the ones holding the Scorpion Road hostage, in which case I agree with you.

 

[TehChron]

As for hostages, our guys aren't strong enough or concentrated enough to be the ones taking hostages. Unless you mean we're the ones holding the Scorpion Road hostage, in which case I agree with you

Click to shrink...

...This is the same force that BTFOd the Thousand Song Siege.

In the Sorrowful.Blacksmiths - actual noncoms - they're not gonna be able to do anything without diverting a Nascent to taking them out or engaging in a protracted siege...

Leaving either option easy prey to the Devil bees. So we've got two methods of leverage over the Righteous Path going into this. And with being given a seat at their Righteous Path Elder Council, we'll have a method to engage in direct negotiation with them.

And we have cards to play to appease them as well.

 

[Insane-Not-Crazy]

We can only take land as fast as our armies can take it.

Even, if we defeat or contain both Jingshen Nascent Souls, but still have take send our armies to take city by city. Which, by word of our Elder, we are not ready to do in a short war unless we make it targeted. So we basicly have the choice of a short targeted war or a long slog that will almost certainly impact spirit stones deliveries to the great battlefield.

Plus, by sending our best array-masters to the front we are basicly giving the Righteous Path the way to make a point and cripple our foundation if they feel like we stepped over their line in the sand.

And it's very possible for Old Jingshen to still have some nasty cards to play we don't know about.

Click to shrink...

The main delay in our advance is breaking their hardpoints and securing them behind us. We can do that with great skill but it takes time. Three Nascents running amok means that we don't have to bother because there's nothing that can stand up to them. Getting the freedom for our Nascents to act as mobile nukes is a massive win. That was basically Jingshen's entire plan for attacking us and it would have worked even with their poor conventional forces.

Strength Purity Sect for all that we rib on them have some regard for power and the willingness to show up to the battlefield. They won't kill out legions out of hand. Ransom them or demand extreme concessions are more likely as their go to

 

[Insane-Not-Crazy]

...This is the same force that BTFOd the Thousand Song Siege.

In the Sorrowful.Blacksmiths - actual noncoms - they're not gonna be able to do anything without diverting a Nascent to taking them out or engaging in a protracted siege...

Leaving either option easy prey to the Devil bees. So we've got two methods of leverage over the Righteous Path going into this. And with being given a seat at their Righteous Path Elder Council, we'll have a method to engage in direct negotiation with them.

And we have cards to play to appease them as well.

Click to shrink...

Could you word a greeting to elder Scarletglyph or Glorious Strike in the flair for the Verdant expedition? Someone has to sit in our seat and having known introductions might be interesting

 

[TehChron]

Could you word a greeting to elder Scarletglyph or Glorious Strike in the flair for the Verdant expedition? Someone has to sit in our seat and having known introductions might be interesting

Click to shrink...

I'd rather leave that to Occi.

Flavoring the text towards a reverse hostage taking situation is more important from my perspective.

 

[occipitallobe]

I just don't like that using the treasure would make Kleisthenes hideous. I know it's petty, but she's our Elder of Diplomacy. We already are considered demonic, having our main diplomat be a hideous hag just isn't to my liking.

Click to shrink...

It only makes her hideous if used to save her life. Despite this, it's an unpopular enough treasure that we can actually buy it, unlike most Nascent-tier LSTs. Nobody wants to become irreversibly grotesque.

The Jingshen straight up have the most useless foot soldiers in the righteous path.

Even without our veterans, the issue is the speed of our advance, not an ability to meet them in pitched battle

Calling it difficulty is vastly exaggerating things.

Click to shrink...

The Jingshen aren't about to meet you in pitched battle (nobody who has the option is), but while they're bad at combat they're not useless. They're by no means your equals at fortifying cities, but they are exceptionally wealth, and most of their cities (especially those built over major Spirit Mines) are strong hardpoints. Your veterans would let you besiege and take more cities

Is this supposed to be the Yu clan? Yuan are in the mountain's to the north.

Click to shrink...

This is! I've written Yuan so many times over the course of the Fates that I guess my fingers just autocompleted it for me. I'll fix that.

 

[Sparsebeard]

It only makes her hideous if used to save her life. Despite this, it's an unpopular enough treasure that we can actually buy it, unlike most Nascent-tier LSTs. Nobody wants to become irreversibly grotesque.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I get that but I can see how my comment might be read differently.

I know ugly is better than crippled or dead but... I'd just rather risk it and keep the gold. I did say I was being petty to be fair.

 

[Sirrocco]

So... the "send our troops to back up SPS, then assault the Jingshen" means that the Righteous types can deal with the Devil Bees better (ie, faster) and that we go through the Jingshen slower, which, I'm sure, the SPS would prefer. After all, it would put them in a position to pull another one of those negotiated settlements, where we go to war with the Jingshen, and after we're done the SPS walks away with something for nothing (probably because the Jingshen bribed them with it) while finagling a peace into place that maintains enough of the balance of power to ensure that we're still competing with the Jingshen over who gets to sell spirit stones to the SPS.

On the flip side, we could go heavy demon. We don't support the SPS, we grab the plant-beasts, and we roll heavy assault into the Jingshen lands. This is going to make the SPS very unhappy with us, but it also puts them in a position where they don't have as much they can do about it. We make significantly faster inroads, and the SPS is locked up fighting their own fights for longer. Also, our best defensive forces are adjacent to our own territories, if it turns out that we need to turn around and start running a defensive war. We breed plant servitors on the bodies and cultivation of the fallen. When the Princess shows up to try to force a truce in her own favor, we look at her and shrug and ask what she's going to do about it.

The first preserves more of our diplomatic position with the Righteous sects (such as it is). The latter gets us a significantly larger slice of the pie

 

[TehChron]

The first preserves more of our diplomatic position with the Righteous sects (such as it

Click to shrink...

Yeaaaaaah

This is a patently false binary

 

[Sirrocco]

Yeaaaaaah

This is a patently false binary

Click to shrink...

Way to make bald, forceful assertions while not backing it up in any way. What part are you attempting to dispute here?

- Are you saying that sending our siege specialists south won't make our assaults on the Jingshen hardened positions take longer? That's a bold move if so, because QM has pretty much stated outright that it will.
- Are you saying that the SPS won't swoop in if they can to turn "war where the Golden Devils eat the Jingshen, thus gaining a monopoly on spirit stone sales and a significantly stronger bargaining position" into "negotiated truce where the SPS gets to conserve something resembling a balance of power, this keeping their own prices lower, and also gets to walk away with a bag full of goodies for themselves personally"?
- Are you saying that us contributing more to the issues the SPS cares about won't help them finish up there faster, thus being able to intervene in the Devil/Jingshen War sooner?
- Are you saying that a slower war (which the SPS can thus more easily intervene in to shift in ways that are more favorable to them) plus increase contribution to the Righteous cause (thus freeing them up faster) won't result in the Righteous sects liking us more than if we instead pull back our contribution to attempt to annihilate the Jingshen properly?

I mean, you can't just call BS and then not back it up. It doesn't work in general, and to the degree that it does work it requires a significant level of credibility. So explain, please, what you mean by that. Or were you just saying that we could, say, withdraw our troops but not make the plant servitors? Or perhaps vice versa? I mean, we could, but I think there's some synergy here to going all one way or all the other. If we piss off the SPS and then don't at least severely cripple Jingshen before the SPS can afford to intervene, then that's likely to be reflected in the position they try to hold at the peace talks, and we won't be able to tell them to just suck it up and deal. Going with the version where we sink everything into the attack is kind of high-risk that way, and if we go for that, I don't think we can afford to hold anything back.

 

[no.]

Way to make bald, forceful assertions while not backing it up in any way. What part are you attempting to dispute here?

- Are you saying that sending our siege specialists south won't make our assaults on the Jingshen hardened positions take longer? That's a bold move if so, because QM has pretty much stated outright that it will.
- Are you saying that the SPS won't swoop in if they can to turn "war where the Golden Devils eat the Jingshen, thus gaining a monopoly on spirit stone sales and a significantly stronger bargaining position" into "negotiated truce where the SPS gets to conserve something resembling a balance of power, this keeping their own prices lower, and also gets to walk away with a bag full of goodies for themselves personally"?
- Are you saying that us contributing more to the issues the SPS cares about won't help them finish up there faster, thus being able to intervene in the Devil/Jingshen War sooner?
- Are you saying that a slower war (which the SPS can thus more easily intervene in to shift in ways that are more favorable to them) plus increase contribution to the Righteous cause (thus freeing them up faster) won't result in the Righteous sects liking us more than if we instead pull back our contribution to attempt to annihilate the Jingshen properly?

I mean, you can't just call BS and then not back it up. It doesn't work in general, and to the degree that it does work it requires a significant level of credibility. So explain, please, what you mean by that. Or were you just saying that we could, say, withdraw our troops but not make the plant servitors? Or perhaps vice versa? I mean, we could, but I think there's some synergy here to going all one way or all the other. If we piss off the SPS and then don't at least severely cripple Jingshen before the SPS can afford to intervene, then that's likely to be reflected in the position they try to hold at the peace talks, and we won't be able to tell them to just suck it up and deal. Going with the version where we sink everything into the attack is kind of high-risk that way, and if we go for that, I don't think we can afford to hold anything back.

Click to shrink...

When will the SPS swoop in?
Where will they find the time?
Where will they find the Nascents?
Which battlefront should they compromise to do this hypothetical maneuvering?
You can't just say the SPS will shut down the fun without explaining how such an occurrence is possible.