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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • no. said:
    I mentioned it in the discord but I'll put it here too:

    If we want to make use of Manuel's intrigue in a really devastating way, we should CREATE a Casus Beli. We should launch a false flag attack on ourselves, blowing up a major fortress and possibly even killing some willing volunteers. If we play our cards right, that could be enough cause to bite a big chunk out of Jingshen's core territories after taking their vassal and Cannibal lands. If we can take that much land, then we might put them below the two-Nascent threshold.
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    That's very hard to do, incidentally--for one very good reason.

    Jingshen are jokes in conventional War. To the point where nobody even bothers to ask for them to send troops to the Demon Annihilating War--because they'd be liabilities.

    There's basically no circumstance in which they successfully sack one of our forts before a Nascent Soul pays a visit.

    It's a ludicrously obvious False Flag, it won't fly.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    I don't know what you mean by that but remember this, last coalition was caused by us making the Divine Saber Sect lose face (it also caused a long lasting enemity). Do you really want to make the much more powerful and influential SPS lose face?



    We refused the Altar Lord's offer and just sent our best array masters, a few legions and some of our best Good Seeds to help on the front line. Plus, we've been suppliying the Righteous Powers with spirit stones and providing them passage to the Oasis to heal their wounded.

    We are pretty much doing all we can to win the war presto short of sending Manuel to the front.
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    The Good Seeds ain't shit dude. Any seed below Core is a background extra, notable only for their potential. Giving Strength Purity some military assistance isn't gonna wipe out the fucking Demonic Altar Sect. Hell, the Righteous Powers are STILL LOSING as we speak.

    All our benefits are doing is keeping the balance from swinging too far in the Demonic direction. When the Righteous Powers start winning we're going to withdraw all of our support for the same reasons. And again, "start winning" doesn't mean they've won. The Demonic factions are an even match for them even when not united.
     
    no. said:
    I mentioned it in the discord but I'll put it here too:

    If we want to make use of Manuel's intrigue in a really devastating way, we should CREATE a Casus Beli. We should launch a false flag attack on ourselves, blowing up a major fortress and possibly even killing some willing volunteers. If we play our cards right, that could be enough cause to bite a big chunk out of Jingshen's core territories after taking their vassal and Cannibal lands. If we can take that much land, then we might put them below the two-Nascent threshold.
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    I don't like this approach because it introduces a dynamic of honesty which is quite frankly unnecessary. If Jingshen had come over our border, he doesn't need to demonstrate his righteousness only his strength
     
    Alectai said:
    If we luck out and discover a good CB though... Well...
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    I think taking it in the FDG's name is the best CB we can hope for.

    We ensure our ally in based near us (which while not as good as raising a great elder of our own, is still pretty great) and we probably can get access to some of the land's bounty since the FDG don't strike me as very interested in administration.

    And most importantly, the SPS get to keep face since we are merely helping the FDG, not taking land of our own.

    It leaves us in a position were the Jingshen are strongly encouraged to sue for long term peace (especially if we have Great Elder Casia to negotiate it) and then we turn on the bees and show once more how reliable we are to the SPS.


    no. said:
    Playing do-gooder will do nothing but get us either wiped out or sent back into a slow decline. We have to scheme, manipulate and play dirty to keep growing.
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    When we were given the choice to do those things, we didn't. At least when it mattered.
     
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    Sparsebeard said:
    I think taking it in the FDG's name is the best CB we can hope for.

    We ensure our ally in based near us (which while not as good as raising a great elder of our own, is still pretty great) and we probably can get access to some of the land's bounty since the FDG don't strike me as very interested in administration.

    And most importantly, the SPS get to keep face since we are merely helping the FDG, not taking land of our own.

    It leaves us in a position were the Jingshen are strongly encouraged to sue for long term peace (especially if we have Great Elder Casia to negotiate it) and then we turn on the bees and show once more how reliable we are to the SPS.
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    Again, the Flood Dragon Gang are a crime syndicate, not a nation. The Heavenly Bandit Kingdoms are kingdoms that sponsor a lot of banditry, not kingdoms made of nothing but bandits. The Flood Dragons are a loosely connected alliance of honorable criminals who steal from various nations but also protect civilians when the Righteous Powers don't. Settling down in one area actively goes against their mission statement, which requires them to spread themselves out.

    Sparsebeard said:
    When we were given the choice to do those things, we didn't. At least when it mattered.
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    We rejected the Altar Lord's offer of a formal alliance… but we also rejected the SPS' offer to change our alignment. We are not a Righteous faction; we use almost everything at our disposal in order to survive and thrive. You could call us anti-heroes, in as much as such a label can apply to a nation-state.
     
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    There's the blatant fiction of some bandits in Jingshen vassals being ganked who was under the Flood Dragons. As boss, Yao'er has to show that you can't stomp her minions without consequence. Jingshen being a Great power she had to rope in her allies the Golden Devils and offer them a share to help extract reparations from the other party
     
    no. said:
    Again, the Flood Dragon Gang are a crime syndicate, not a nation. The Heavenly Bandit Kingdoms are kingdoms that sponsor a lot of banditry, not kingdoms made of nothing but bandits. The Flood Dragons are a loosely connected alliance of honorable criminals who steal from various nations but also protect civilians when the Righteous Powers don't. Settling down in one area actively goes against their mission statement, which requires them to spread themselves out.
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    We don't have to ask the Flood Dragons to change their MO. A kingdom who sponsors bandits who pay tribute to their boss in a syndicate fits into the Gang just fine. We're trying to get the already existing native bandits to pay into the syndicate for protection
     
    Insane-Not-Crazy said:
    There's the blatant fiction of some bandits in Jingshen vassals being ganked who was under the Flood Dragons. As boss, Yao'er has to show that you can't stomp her minions without consequence. Jingshen being a Great power she had to rope in her allies the Golden Devils and offer them a share to help extract reparations from the other party
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    Exactly, I fully expect us to do most of the fighting, the important thing is to let SPS keep face. Nobody will force Lady Yao and her crew to stay in their new territories all the time.

    She gets most of the ressources from the land and in exchange she's the nearby ally we can count on. Most importantly, Jingshen loses the land and ressources.
     
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    Insane-Not-Crazy said:
    There's the blatant fiction of some bandits in Jingshen vassals being ganked who was under the Flood Dragons. As boss, Yao'er has to show that you can't stomp her minions without consequence. Jingshen being a Great power she had to rope in her allies the Golden Devils and offer them a share to help extract reparations from the other party
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    Or even make it real send a young master of the Flood dragons to the Jingshen with orders encouraging him to be as obnoxious as possible.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    Exactly, I fully expect us to do most of the fighting, the important thing is to let SPS keep face. Nobody will force Lady Yao and her crew to stay in their new territories all the time.
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    They're not going to want the territory. It's all going to us either way. Strength Purity's face doesn't matter if we can use the spirit stone industry to grab them by the balls, then draw out the Demon Annihilating War for another hundred years or even more.

    Using the Flood Dragons as part of our excuse to invade could work, but doing that won't give us a get out of jail free card wrt the SPS situation. They're going to feel pissed and betrayed either way, because the Devils running the whole desert is less favorable to them than letting the Jingshen control the mining.
     
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    Sparsebeard said:
    I don't know what you mean by that but remember this, last coalition was caused by us making the Divine Saber Sect lose face (it also caused a long lasting enemity). Do you really want to make the much more powerful and influential SPS lose face?
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    Last time they wanted our various legacies and treasures in the mountains, and werent in the middle of fighting a massive war.

    Once again, the point of our diplomacy with them up until now was precisely to have the leeway for a stunt like this.

    fictionfan said:
    If Manuel's economic actions work out and we get some nice tribulation treasures would it make sense to go for 4 and go all in on the war?
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    If its feasible I dont mind spamming economic actions for that purpose.

    no. said:
    I mentioned it in the discord but I'll put it here too:

    If we want to make use of Manuel's intrigue in a really devastating way, we should CREATE a Casus Beli. We should launch a false flag attack on ourselves, blowing up a major fortress and possibly even killing some willing volunteers. If we play our cards right, that could be enough cause to bite a big chunk out of Jingshen's core territories after taking their vassal and Cannibal lands. If we can take that much land, then we might put them below the two-Nascent threshold.
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    And like I said we dont need to.

    We can just drum up some perceived abuse by the Jingshen to the Bandits in the area, then have Yao swear vengeance on their behalf and well GOSH DARN IT TURNS OUT WE HAVE A TREATY WITH THIS RIGHTEOUS POWER WE JUST GOTTA FOLLOW GUYS

    Nothing personal about it, I'm afraid. What're you going to do, deny Lady Yaos inherent Righteousness and upstanding moral character after she risked her life on the Righteous Paths behalf?
     
    no. said:
    They're not going to want the territory. It's all going to us either way. Strength Purity's face doesn't matter if we can use the spirit stone industry to grab them by the balls, then draw out the Demon Annihilating War for another hundred years or even more.
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    I think you strongly underestimate how important face is for Righteous Powers. Last coalition was because we made the Divine Saber Sect lose face.

    And why wouldn't the FDG gang want the land if we help administrate it for them? It's free money and a safe place to R&R.
     
    TehChron said:
    And like I said we dont need to.

    We can just drum up some perceived abuse by the Jingshen to the Bandits in the area, then have Yao swear vengeance on their behalf and well GOSH DARN IT TURNS OUT WE HAVE A TREATY WITH THIS RIGHTEOUS POWER WE JUST GOTTA FOLLOW GUYS

    Nothing personal about it, I'm afraid. What're you going to do, deny Lady Yaos inherent Righteousness and upstanding moral character after she risked her life on the Righteous Paths behalf?
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    That pretty much exactly what I'm saying (not that I came up with the idea). Have Lady Yao come in and liberate those bandits as her new vassals and take the "New Jingshen Territories". We can act as mere helpers and let the SPS keep face.

    TehChron said:
    Because they're wandering bandits?
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    They can still wander all they want lol. With a base to fall back on if needed.

    If anything, considering the solid we just did her I doubt Lady Yao would refuse even if it goes against her instinct.

    And when we had an option to set up a righteous power in the desert, Occi said that other powers wouldn't want that power to be the FDG, not that the FDG woulnd't be interested
     
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    TehChron said:
    And like I said we dont need to.

    We can just drum up some perceived abuse by the Jingshen to the Bandits in the area, then have Yao swear vengeance on their behalf and well GOSH DARN IT TURNS OUT WE HAVE A TREATY WITH THIS RIGHTEOUS POWER WE JUST GOTTA FOLLOW GUYS

    Nothing personal about it, I'm afraid. What're you going to do, deny Lady Yaos inherent Righteousness and upstanding moral character after she risked her life on the Righteous Paths behalf?
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    It really is the standard young master plot of a Xianxia. Of course in most Xianxia the plot isn't actively staged by the young master's family.

    But it really does explain the young master determined to be offended by everything.
     
    no. said:
    They're not going to want the territory. It's all going to us either way. Strength Purity's face doesn't matter if we can use the spirit stone industry to grab them by the balls, then draw out the Demon Annihilating War for another hundred years or even more.

    Using the Flood Dragons as part of our excuse to invade could work, but doing that won't give us a get out of jail free card wrt the SPS situation. They're going to feel pissed and betrayed either way, because the Devils running the whole desert is less favorable to them than letting the Jingshen control the mining.
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    Why would they not want free tribute that they don't have to work to maintain? It's not a free pass but it sets the dynamics at a different time than we outright advancing. A Demonic tool and a Demonic aggressor might be the exact same ploy under different colors but the colors are flags with meaning
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    That pretty much exactly what I'm saying (not that I came up with the idea). Have Lady Yao come in and liberate those bandits as her new vassals and take the "New Jingshen Territories". We can act as mere helpers and let the SPS keep face.
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    No, your problem is that you want this overly complicated land scheme with half a dozen unnecessary extra steps that miss the point of the Flood Dragons in the first place.

    All Yao needs is an excuse to commit violence, and violence will then be committed on her behalf.

    That is, quite literally, what she prefers to do.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    And why wouldn't the FDG gang want the land if we help administrate it for them? It's free money and a safe place to R&R.
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    For the same reason the Italian Mafia never conquered Cicily as their own personal nation: that's not how organized crime works. They don't have industry. They don't have a stable pool of civilians(they recruit mortals from all over the Sea, and also Cultivators who want to go rogue). They don't have traditional techniques or styles, they don't have a signature cycling technique. They are very different from a Sect.
     
    no. said:
    For the same reason the Italian Mafia never conquered Cicily as their own personal nation: that's not how organized crime works. They don't have industry. They don't have a stable pool of civilians(they recruit mortals from all over the Sea, and also Cultivators who want to go rogue). They don't have traditional techniques or styles, they don't have a signature cycling technique. They are very different from a Sect.
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    I agree that the Gang are a loose pile of sand which makes it perfect. We're looking for an excuse to be invited into an attack, period. Everything else is just fortunate happenstance of being the closest power to a decapitated territory.
     
    The only problem now is "Do the Flood dragons have young masters?". We need someone who can go in an credible say "Don't you know who I am!" And generally make an ass of themselves until the Jingshen finally have enough and retaliate. It is a dangerous job with a very specific skill set. LST don't always work in universe.
     
    TehChron said:
    Because they wouldn't be interested.

    They arent interested now, and they very likely wont be in the future.
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    no. said:
    For the same reason the Italian Mafia never conquered Cicily as their own personal nation: that's not how organized crime works. They don't have industry. They don't have a stable pool of civilians(they recruit mortals from all over the Sea, and also Cultivators who want to go rogue). They don't have traditional techniques or styles, they don't have a signature cycling technique. They are very different from a Sect.
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    Here is the quote form the discord when mochinator asked if the FDG could be the new Desert Power :

    Mochinator - Xiao Yi/Jin Muyi — Today at 22:01
    IF we can get the Flood Dragons In, we already have a slight advantage on the influence front

    @Mochinator - Xiao Yi/Jin Muyi
    Any chance of there being a negotiation involved? Like if we can trade stuff/bribe so that it's Flood Dragon, i think it;s worth it
    Occipitallobe — Today at 22:02
    Yes, but it's unlikely to be Flood Dragon. You could win a concession and have the Flood Dragons offered a bunch of elder positions, for instance.
    [22:02]​
    But the Sect would be a tripartite sort of thing.

    Occipitallobe — Today at 22:02
    Realistically it would be centuries before it reached any sort of real coherency.

    Mochinator - Xiao Yi/Jin Muyi — Today at 22:02
    Like offhand, giving spirit stones, lowering tarrifs etc

    @Mochinator - Xiao Yi/Jin Muyi
    Hmmm, no bribing to make things lean more heavily towards the Flood Dragons?
    Occipitallobe — Today at 22:03
    Jingshen have no reason to heavily compromise on this, though Strength Purity happily would.
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    Note that the reason it wouldn't have worked is political. I'd think that if the FDG were just uninterested in being landed, Occi would have mentionned it as it would have closed the whole argument.

    Instead, he said that the Flood Dragons could at best be Elders which implies they'd possibly be opened to such a thing, else, why mention it.
     
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