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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Garlak said:
    Actually hold on, this might technically be viable...

    Okay, we have one "IOU A Nascent Soul Tribulation" voucher from the Heaven's Shadow, right?

    What if we save it for our THIRD Nascent Soul?

    What if we try to have one of our Councillors reach Nascent Soul using just our, and their, own efforts and treasures and wealth. And if they fail, we go for one of the other 2 candidates and then use the gauranteed-tribulation Boon on it.

    But if they succeed. If they succeed on their own merits? Then we save the Tribulation IOU.

    And have the candidate spend the next 300 years trying to reach Twin-Soul Core Formation, and use the Boon on their Tribulation.

    It's a gamble. It's gambling that our Elder can succeed on their merits and with our help and our gathering of tribulation treasures. But if we pull off the gamble? We could have a Twin-Core Nascent Soul as our 3rd Nascent Soul.


    Or not even that! We just keep it as a super-important Strategic Reserve. We keep it as an "Press button in case you need an immediate Nascent Soul" strategic reserve.
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    Twin-Core is really fucking hard though? It takes an extra 300 years of cultivation on top of what it takes to get to GC Core, and we don't have that kind of time.
     
    Alectai said:
    Yeah, that's kind of the issue, if we get Not!Balefire, the correct move is to save it for Old Cannibal, because he's too canny to go down any other way.

    But that means we have to take Jingshen on the chin.
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    I mean, I don't think the best balefire line is to hold on to it longer than a turn. Its greatest power as a deterrent is AFTER it's been used. So on that line we'd probably take advantage of having Yao with us (and so temporarily immune to the Jingshen) to spend 1-2 nascent actions next turn assassinating Old Cannibal immediately.

    Then rely on a combination of Yao and the deterrent of having used Balefire once to ward off Jingshen aggression till second Nascent arrives naturally.

    It's really not a terrible line, but it's certainly more risky. We basically gain a guaranteed kill on Old Cannibal in exchange for keeping our current risky position vs. Jingshen instead of hitting guaranteed detente.
     
    So basically on Discord I was musing that depending on how far along Jingshen are in their prep, we can bait them out by having Manuel fake injury as a consequence of getting another Nascent. The situation becomes relatively even between us between Nascent Wills and Cultivators taking into account wounded Manuel and two Earlies versus Old Jingshen and his possible two Earlies. The draw is that if we're given time to heal Jingshen loses their opportunity to act and so they either push now or fold and sue for peace. Either way we win by forcing a conflict on our terms or settling into a status quo that favors us in everything but outright war.
     
    People are throwing around using the droplet to kill late-nascent souls. Would that even work?

    It says : " The first droplet would sever the future of any of similar power to the user."

    Manuel is FAR below in power relative to either Altar Lord or Wei princess.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    People are throwing around using the droplet to kill late-nascent souls. Would that even work?

    It says : " The first droplet would sever the future of any of similar power to the user."

    Manuel is FAR below in power relative to either Altar Lord or Wei princess.
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    from our point of view yes, from the point of view of the Shadow of Heaven, perhaps not.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    People are throwing around using the droplet to kill late-nascent souls. Would that even work?

    It says : " The first droplet would sever the future of any of similar power to the user."

    Manuel is FAR below in power relative to either Altar Lord or Wei princess.
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    Thing is, Sparse, Occi said in Discord that the difference between an Early Nascent and a Mid Nascent is basically nonexistent from the perspective of the Shadow. (which was the explanation behind the Blind the Watcher thing raising the ally to Early.)

    It's basically a matter of an ant and a slightly larger ant. (that was the comparison used.) As far as they're concerned, it's the same category.

    Therefore, it's safe to assume that it can slay all in Nascent.

    Also, from a different perspective, last time, the Will granted a 2 Shiny level ability. There's a 2 Shiny Treasure, the Ice Volcano spear, that explicitly could kill anyone in Nascent. I think this is a reflavored version with an added bonus of erasing the recent past actions of the Nascent in question.
     
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    Adhoc vote count started by TheCount on Jul 1, 2021 at 11:26 PM, finished with 115 posts and 55 votes.
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    Insane-Not-Crazy said:
    So basically on Discord I was musing that depending on how far along Jingshen are in their prep, we can bait them out by having Manuel fake injury as a consequence of getting another Nascent. The situation becomes relatively even between us between Nascent Wills and Cultivators taking into account wounded Manuel and two Earlies versus Old Jingshen and his possible two Earlies. The draw is that if we're given time to heal Jingshen loses their opportunity to act and so they either push now or fold and sue for peace. Either way we win by forcing a conflict on our terms or settling into a status quo that favors us in everything but outright war.
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    I'm a bit confused how this would help. Are you proposing to have Manuel feign injury before, or after, we gain our second Nascent Soul?

    Could you unpack how you expect this plan to go down? Especially given that Manuel's reputation for being a really sneaky bastard of an old monster means that Old Jingshen is going to be super-de-duper suspicious that Manuel might be faking it?

    After all, there's a reason Jingshen's current strategy is to just keep econ-booming until he's got such an overwhelming firepower advantage that it makes no real difference whether we're faking a weakness or not.
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    I'm a bit confused how this would help. Are you proposing to have Manuel feign injury before, or after, we gain our second Nascent Soul?

    Could you unpack how you expect this plan to go down? Especially given that Manuel's reputation for being a really sneaky bastard of an old monster means that Old Jingshen is going to be super-de-duper suspicious that Manuel might be faking it?

    After all, there's a reason Jingshen's current strategy is to just keep econ-booming until he's got such an overwhelming firepower advantage that it makes no real difference whether we're faking a weakness or not.
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    This would be after. I'm assuming that our Nascent Soul tribulation is going to be obvious and noticeable in that it was easier than the norm. It costs us nothing to have Manuel feign an injury as the price paid for smoothing out the tribulation since in setting no one knows that the Shadow of Heaven supplied the boon. Of course Jingshen is going to be suspicious but the thing about suspicion is that it isn't certainty. After the tribulation, Jingshen will know that his Gambit has either failed or is on the verge of such. We would have gained a second Nascent which renders the advantage he sought to build null AND also have an alliance with a third Nascent making us the stronger. It depends on how risk averse Jigshen is, does attacking first with whatever Nascent he can raise pose less risk than letting us recover and have the strength to squeeze them out economically since there's no third desert power to distract us. Manuel's injury is to make the Gambit a bit more attractive in that a Normal Mid Nascent can handle 3 Earlies, so a weakened Manuel allows one last opportunity for attack.
    If he doesn't bite, since the weakness is feigned we could fluff the time sins seclusion as Wealth creation or Helping our Second Nascent firm her foundations
     
    I'm pretty sure Old Jingshen will just not attack in that situation. Right now he's not willing to attack when the odds are two-on-one. He's not going to be willing to attack when it's three-on-two, let alone three-on-three. Remember that he can go right on playing the long game and re-fortify his border.

    Manuel has a reputation for feigning injury, or being cunning enough to feign injury. Old Jingshen's not going to gamble on what might turn into a Nascent fight at equal odds if Manuel's playing cagey.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    I'm pretty sure Old Jingshen will just not attack in that situation. Right now he's not willing to attack when the odds are two-on-one. He's not going to be willing to attack when it's three-on-two, let alone three-on-three. Remember that he can go right on playing the long game and re-fortify his border.

    Manuel has a reputation for feigning injury, or being cunning enough to feign injury. Old Jingshen's not going to gamble on what might turn into a Nascent fight at equal odds if Manuel's playing cagey.
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    I think that that's a valid prediction of Old Jingshen which means that we are free to go full on brinkmanship, flexing our weight. If all goes well it will be three-on-two since without a quick win Jigshen can't support a third Nascent.

    Lady Yao can raid their less built up new territories while the clan and Manuel focus on subverting their vassals and applying economic strangulation. If we can carve Jingshen down to their core territories and fortify our backs we can focus on other threats like Abyssal Bees.
     
    Insane-Not-Crazy said:
    Lady Yao can raid their less built up new territories while the clan and Manuel focus on subverting their vassals and applying economic strangulation. If we can carve Jingshen down to their core territories and fortify our backs we can focus on other threats like Abyssal Bees.
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    Yeah, generaly I'm not a fan of war with Jingshen, but considering how they got their new lands by bullying us after a war with the Cannibals where they did nothing at all to help and how they threat their southern vassals, I'd be okay with trying to land Lady Yao into the "New Jingshen Lands" and get her to subvert the southern Jingshen vassals. It would make for a pretty small territory, but still probably enough to support early nascent soul Lady Yao...

    Plus, if the Flood Dragon Gang is the one to do the conquering and we are only there to support them, it's bound to be less aggravating to the righteous path...
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    Yeah, generaly I'm not a fan of war with Jingshen, but considering how they got their new lands by bullying us after a war with the Cannibals where they did nothing at all to help and how they threat their southern vassals, I'd be okay with trying to land Lady Yao into the "New Jingshen Lands" and get her to subvert the southern Jingshen vassals. It would make for a pretty small territory, but still probably enough to support early nascent soul Lady Yao...

    Plus, if the Flood Dragon Gang is the one to do the conquering and we are only there to support them, it's bound to be less aggravating to the righteous path...
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    The Flood Dragons don't really hold territory but Lady Yao has committed to showing the flag in our holdings for the next 60 years. That's enough time for the Jingshen vassals to declare independence and hire the Dragon's as Dao Protectors writ large. Besides some of the Bandits therein could join in the loose structure of the Dragon gang and form an offshoot to the syndicate. Lady Yao herself won't care so long as they pass her tests for admission and pay tribute and having us next door at full strength should keep coward Jingshen to himself
    He can't really go complaining to the Righteous Path if he can't hold land that was literally given to him for nothing
     
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    Insane-Not-Crazy said:
    The Flood Dragons don't really hold territory but Lady Yao has committed to showing the flag in our holdings for the next 60 years. That's enough time for the Jingshen vassals to declare independence and hire the Dragon's as Dao Protectors writ large. Besides some of the Bandits therein could join in the loose structure of the Dragon gang and form an offshoot to the syndicate. Lady Yao herself won't care so long as they pass her tests for admission and pay tribute and having us next door at full strength should keep coward Jingshen to himself
    He can't really go complaining to the Righteous Path if he can't hold land that was literally given to him for nothing
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    Just because they didn't have land in the past doesn't mean the Flood Dragons wouldn't like to have some. And landing the Flood dragons in the "New Jingshen Lands" would mean a nearby ally when the 60 years have past which would be great.

    As for taking the lands ourselves, no thank you. It would pretty much be a slap in the face to the Strenght Purity Sect that mediated the agreement. So yeah, I very much think that Jingshen could go complain to the SPS sect, especially since they gave up the Oasis in order to make sure they would be in the neighbourhood. I see no reason to be greedy and expand in the desert ourselves when we can expand in the Abyssal Bees and be thanked for lessening the brunt of their assault in the plains.

    Plus, even if Lady Yao only takes the land in name as a back-up bandit base, it still allows the SPS to keep face and we can always send a few elders to administrate and defend the lands when Lady Yao leaves for some righteous crusade or mercenary work. And it binds the Flood Dragon Gang much more closely and indefinitely.
     
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    This is a land where might rules. Note that when we were considering the Jingshen offensive we didn't argue that Jingshen was bound to their agreement to not attack us and and take our territories including the new lands. Unless Strength Purity wants to take on the role of overlord to Jingshen, they and everyone in the Righteous Path expect Jingshen to defend and hold on to what they have. We might have to pay some concessions but we've bought enough goodwill and we really aren't aiming at threatening the main spirit stones trade. It would look awkward given the current status of the Demon War for Strength Purity to send out strength to support a weakling who can't even show up for the rest of the Righteous Path in their need

    We don't have to take the land wholesale just present enough of a threat over our borders that lady Yao can run wild without Jingshen risking their core territories sending one of their two Nascents away to lands they haven't invested in. We'd basically be the Young Master's guard threatening off retaliation while our ally bullies a weakling
     
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    Sparsebeard said:
    As for taking the lands ourselves, no thank you. It would pretty much be a slap in the face to the Strenght Purity Sect that mediated the agreement.
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    Insane never said anything about 'taking the lands ourselves' though? He's suggesting the same idea you're supporting, of carving up Jingshen's new lands into independent friendly powers, like a Flood Dragon/Heavenly Bandit off-shoot.
     
    TehChron said:
    No ones going to believe we have more than one of those things on hand

    It's just too potent
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    I mean, sure, but noone believes we have ONE of those things in hand to start with. Every time Manuel pulls an impossible win through preparation, it increases the deterrence of his reputation. That's the biggest deterrence we can get out of this; merely announcing that we have a single charge of balefire is actually less effective deterrence since A) it's not especially credible, and B) a known threat like that could motivate a unified action against us, where 'Manuel is a scary bastard and too dangerous to corner' wouldn't.

    I'm not pushing to take the Balefire, but I'm pretty sure we would get the most value from immediate use if we did.
     
    To be fair, if Manuel did pull a Nascent Disintegrating Bazooka out of his hat and casually one-shot Old Jingshen, or some other Nascent Soul whose continued existence we find inconvenient, it would definitely add to his rep.

    If we hit him specifically it would... actually be interesting. Jingshen Clan wouldn't cease to exist, but Lady Jiao almost certainly wouldn't be able to hold the clan together in its present state. There's a fair chance they'd swear vassalage to some other stronger Righteous faction, I think?
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    To be fair, if Manuel did pull a Nascent Disintegrating Bazooka out of his hat and casually one-shot Old Jingshen, or some other Nascent Soul whose continued existence we find inconvenient, it would definitely add to his rep.

    If we hit him specifically it would... actually be interesting. Jingshen Clan wouldn't cease to exist, but Lady Jiao almost certainly wouldn't be able to hold the clan together in its present state. There's a fair chance they'd swear vassalage to some other stronger Righteous faction, I think?
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    Considering her dao of "acceptance", I wonder how she would take her dad's death... Either she rages and go against her dao or she just accepts it.

    Insane-Not-Crazy said:
    This is a land where might rules. Note that when we were considering the Jingshen offensive we didn't argue that Jingshen was bound to their agreement to not attack us and and take our territories including the new lands. Unless Strength Purity wants to take on the role of overlord to Jingshen, they and everyone in the Righteous Path expect Jingshen to defend and hold on to what they have. We might have to pay some concessions but we've bought enough goodwill and we really aren't aiming at threatening the main spirit stones trade. It would look awkward given the current status of the Demon War for Strength Purity to send out strength to support a weakling who can't even show up for the rest of the Righteous Path in their need

    We don't have to take the land wholesale just present enough of a threat over our borders that lady Yao can run wild without Jingshen risking their core territories sending one of their two Nascents away to lands they haven't invested in. We'd basically be the Young Master's guard threatening off retaliation while our ally bullies a weakling
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    Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing, I think I misread you and thought you wanted to directly take over Jingshen's land which might be risky diplomaticly, but so long as Lady Yao is the one waging the war in name and taking land over I don't think it would be as bad.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    Considering her dao of "acceptance", I wonder how she would take her dad's death... Either she rages and go against her dao or she just accepts it.
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    True true. On the other hand, "acceptance" can take many forms. The key thing here is that Lady Jiao is still in Early Nascent and, based on past precedent of encounters between her and Manuel, is ill equipped to best Manuel directly in a confrontation. So assuming she doesn't (uncharacteristically) become revenge-obsessed and rageful... she's not really equipped to pursue a strategy of "go it alone" anymore. At least not for the foreseeable future.
     
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