Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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Omake Writer Instructions:

There are four fields you need to fill out.

Omake Link, which is just a link to your first omake for the turn. This makes it easier for me to read them as I do the update - without this it's tough to know off the bat which omake were written this turn, and to properly

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All other fields are for QM use to record character information to properly run the flow of the game.

 

[uri]

Just like it was last time, when we bought the palace, it kicked in that turn. This war isn't going to finish up this turn, we're still at the start of it.

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Last time the effect kicked in the trials which were at the end of turn 5 and the start of turn 6

 

[seraph12]

[X] Plan For An Ace Up The Sleeve(?)

 

[Olivebirdy]

Last time the effect kicked in the trials which were at the end of turn 5 and the start of turn 6

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The increase in strength will happen by the end of this turn - you'll buy it in Year 1 and it'll be largely complete by Year 20 of the turn.

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This is what the QM said last time. We bought it at the end of year 80.

It's just such a waste to put Manuel and 11 Wealth on Fu Tong, not when we could be preparing for the Trials as well as increasing the chance of killing Old Cannibal by getting the Palace.

 

[TehChron]

Yes, it does. Pumping up our forts, pumping up our warriors do in fact tip the conflict between us and Old Cannibal. It says so in the text, that the longer we can hold them off, the more unfavorable fights we can lure Old Cannibal into, because he's more pressed for time than we are.

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You say that like Old Cannibal.cant be proactive

It's just such a waste to put Manuel and 11 Wealth on Fu Tong, not when we could be preparing for the Trials as well as increasing the chance of killing Old Cannibal by getting the Palace.

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How is mitigating risk on a potential existential crisis a waste?

 

[nothingtoseehere]

So on this argument, here's an actual plan on investing in the Palace

[X] The best defense is a Well-Trained Army
-[X] Take the Loan. Permanent -1 Wealth per turn, +10 Wealth now.
-[X] Training Soldiers - Raising Disciples to higher Realms is all well and good, but training them to be perfect members of Formations is better. Ensure your Clan is trained and ready for war. Your readiness to go to war will increase significantly, though this fades over time.
-[X] Investigate Fu Tong personally
-[X] Build the Ten Thousand Forts (5 Wealth)
-[X] Attempt to improve the Technique Palace (14 Wealth)


All that burning 11 wealth on the Array does is give us a glimpse about what is going on in Fu Tong. It doesn't destroy it, it doesn't give us a detailed diagram of what Old Cannibal is planning. It gives us a satillie can image over the place - and in doing so, it's risking destroying our satellite capacities for the rest of this war.

Meanwhile, the Foundation Technique palace will be making our Foundation experts better in combat in all later war turns, it will be decreasing their causalities next trials (which also helps them protect juniors better), it will be making our defences against future devil bee and Jingshin and Sabre Palace raids better.

 

[TehChron]

It gives us a satillie can image over the place - and in doing so, it's risking destroying our satellite capacities for the rest of this war.

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Based on what?

 

[wrecksalot]

[X] The best defense is a Well-Trained Army
-[X] Take the Loan. Permanent -1 Wealth per turn, +10 Wealth now.
-[X] Training Soldiers - Raising Disciples to higher Realms is all well and good, but training them to be perfect members of Formations is better. Ensure your Clan is trained and ready for war. Your readiness to go to war will increase significantly, though this fades over time.
-[X] Investigate Fu Tong personally
-[X] Build the Ten Thousand Forts (5 Wealth)
-[X] Attempt to improve the Technique Palace (14 Wealth)

 

[Olivebirdy]

You say that like Old Cannibal.cant be proactive

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I'm just saying what Manuel says. "As long as the Cannibals could be held sufficiently at bay, he could lure Old Cannibal out and into a series of unfavorable fights."

How is mitigating risk on a potential existential crisis a waste?

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That's hyping it up quite a lot. And it's a waste because otherwise we'd have to spend 80 Wealth to get what we can get now for 14, at the low, low cost of not doubling up on looking into a city in Cannibal territory.

Yes, there's absolutely something going on there. Old Cannibal has been fighting tooth and nail to keep our spies out. Manuel investigating or spending 11 to check out the most heavily-defended city is a good idea. I just don't think it's worth missing out on this deal to do both.

"Archegetes. Things are.. indecisive. I don't think we're going to see much of an information war now. Too many troops. I've pulled a lot of my informants back, and I'm building my forces in the places I can hold them. I'm aiming to push two cities into open revolt, but whether I succeed will remain to be seen. Most of my other spies in Cannibal territory are dead. I spent a lot of lives to build a sort of map. One of the northern cities, Fu Tong... it's impenetrable. I don't know what's happening there, but anyone I send there dies."

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[nothingtoseehere]

Based on what?

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Fair enough - I rechecked the description and the line I thought about risking damage to the array isn't there. It might just be a huge suction of wealth instead.

 

[TehChron]

I'm just saying what Manuel says. "As long as the Cannibals could be held sufficiently at bay, he could lure Old Cannibal out and into a series of unfavorable fights."

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And how do we hold Old Cannibal at bay when hes scheming something behind his own lines? Hidden from most prying eyes?

That's hyping it up quite a lot

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So you're saying this war isnt a potential existential crisis then?

Old Cannibal has been putting a lot of effort into keeping us blind in his terri

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Which will necessitate Manuel investigating

Making it perfect bait for Manuel specifically.

Fair enough - I rechecked the description and the line I thought about risking damage to the array isn't there. It might just be a huge suction of wealth instead.

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Which brings us back to the question of "What does that accomplish that makes it worth expending what little resources the Cannibals have to bear on such an expensive red herring?"

 

[Olivebirdy]

And how do we hold Old Cannibal at bay when hes scheming something behind his own lines? Hidden from most prying eyes?

So you're saying this war isnt a potential existential crisis then?

Which will necessitate Manuel investigating
Making it perfect bait for Manuel specifically.

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Well for one, it is behind his own lines. That is, not right up next to us, it's a base up north. Old Cannibal needs to play offense, he doesn't have the Formations expertise needed to use Fu Tong as some sort of megadeath laser to destroy the bases on our side of the battlefield, which he'll need to get past in order to get to our squishy mortals.

Yes, we generally don't have enough money to spend on our Eye to see inside Fu Tong, which would mean that it's predictable we would need to send Manuel to have a look. It is perfect bait. I know it, you know it, Manuel knows it and is wise enough to take necessary precautions because he's paranoid and capable. All he needs to do is investigate.

 

[TehChron]

Well for one, it is behind his own lines. That is, not right up next to us, it's a base up north. Old Cannibal needs to play offense, he doesn't have the Formations expertise needed to use Fu Tong as some sort of megadeath laser to destroy the bases on our side of the battlefield, which he'll need to get past in order to get to our squishy mortals.

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He doesnt need to. Dudes an Archery Spec. He is the laser. If he gets a lock on Manuel's location and ample supplies to go ham on sniping Manuel?

That could be enough.

 

[Rakuhn]

[X] TehChron

If people are really worried about 'wasting' Manuel's action on doubling down on Old Cannibal's gambit, we could have him doing a training action instead.

I am strongly against gambling on the technique palace given that
1) We don't know that the "90% chance of success" estimate is accurate
2) That is still a 10% chance of massive waste when we need all our resources for the war
3) Improving our FE individual capabilities over the next 20 years is going to have a minimal impact on the war, especially given that our forces are slow and our strategy relies heavily on mass combat

 

[Olivebirdy]

He doesnt need to. Dudes an Archery Spec. He is the laser.

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And if it's as simple as 'Fu Tong is well-fortified', we don't need to use both huge amount money and Manuel on scoping it out. Not when instead Manuel could be working on [ ] Weaken an Enemy: Blood Cannibals, for instance.

1) We don't know that the "90% chance of success" estimate is accurate
2) That is still a 10% chance of massive waste when we need all our resources for the war

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Fair point on #2, that would be incredibly painful, but #1, having the QM give a percentage in the text and then not using that percentage for rolls is generally not what happens.
Edit: Still, a 90% chance of getting a Palace upgrade for 14 is much better than a 100% chance of getting one for 80. It's a good gamble.

3) Improving our FE individual capabilities over the next 20 years is going to have a minimal impact on the war, especially given that our forces are slow and our strategy relies heavily on mass combat

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I'm not seeing this. We've got 5,200 FE, that's enough to matter. They are part of mass combat, they will be helping to defend the bases, their strength or lack of it will make an impact.
It's also worth considering what happens after the war, too. During the Harrowing, we want each level to be as strong as possible, as the harassers don't attack those under their level. Stronger FEs means that more of them will survive the Trials.


Edit: Putting too much money and time into investigating a city is also something Old Cannibal would happily bait us into, we don't actually know how much it cost him to make Fu Tong airtight. If all he needed to do was make really good wards, that might have been cheap for him.

Old Cannibal frowned, or at least Manuel thought he did. It was so hard to tell with the man completely covered up. The frustrating part was that this was clearly designed for him to exert his Dao, a place in which he'd easily win. It was an obvious trap... but on what level? A simple trap to ensnare him? A second-level trap that did nothing but made him overly wary? A third-level trap that did in fact trap him but was designed to instil wariness later? He couldn't know, but finding out secrets here would only offer him so much.

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[TehChron]

And if it's as simple as 'Fu Tong is well-fortified', we don't need to use both huge amount money and Manuel on scoping it out. Not when instead Manuel could be working on [ ] Weaken an Enemy: Blood Cannibals, for instance.

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So you'd rather bet against wasting money then betting against Old Cannibal actually having a potential free shot?

We already know that Old Cannibal can attach slivers of his Nascent Will onto stuff without them catching him, it's even commented on in the update. Should Old Cannibal do that and get a way to nullify Manuels stealth or evasion techniques even a little bit, he'll have won the only fight that mattered.

For me, that's a genuinely unacceptable risk. Wealth can be replaced. Manuel can not.

 

[Olivebirdy]

Old Cannibal is not going to kill Manuel with an investigation into a city that's clearly suspicious. That's just not going to happen. We might have a battle, Manuel might be wounded, which may very well make the rest of this war much harder, that's possible. But fights between Nascents happen with battle after battle after battle of subtle fights, catastrophizing about 'If Manuel looks into this city without also spending lot of money on scouting with the Eye, he'll die!' isn't convincing.

Not to mention the fact that Fu Tong might be a decoy in the first place, meant to distract Manuel or have us spend lots of money investigating it. A lot of your argument is based on how expensive and hard it would be to ward the city that well, that there's no waaaaay that Old Cannibal would go to that expense without having some sorta dangerous trump card in it. How do you know how expensive it was?

 

[RebelYell]

[X] Plan For An Ace Up The Sleeve(?)

 

[TehChron]

Old Cannibal is not going to kill Manuel with an investigation into a city that's clearly suspicious. That's just not going to happen.

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I never said that he'd kill him.

Even a major wound from an incredibly effective Alpha Strike would be enough to end the war for us, as it would give Old Cannibal free reign to act as he pleased while Manuel simply wouldn't be able to stop him without extensive preparation to mitigate the wound on top of his already severely handicapped combat capability.

And it goes without saying that no one else would be able to stop Old Cannibal either.

That's just the cut and dry fact of the matter. Whoever eats the disadvantage first, loses.

 

[no.]

I also just don't think it's very likely at all that whatever's going on in Fu Tong would be valuable enough intel to deserve 11 wealth, Manuel's action and the risk of damaging the golden eye. One of those things would be fine, but all three is too much.

I never said that he'd kill him.

Even a major wound from an incredibly effective Alpha Strike would be enough to end the war for us, as it would give Old Cannibal free reign to act as he pleased while Manuel simply wouldn't be able to stop him without extensive preparation to mitigate the wound on top of his already severely handicapped combat capability.

And it goes without saying that no one else would be able to stop Old Cannibal either.

That's just the cut and dry fact of the matter. Whoever eats the disadvantage first, loses.

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In what way is Manuel "severely handicapped"? His stamina is on the low side for a Nascent Soul but he's an incredibly skilled fighter.

 

[TehChron]

I also just don't think it's very likely at all that whatever's going on in Fu Tong would be valuable enough intel to deserve 11 wealth, Manuel's action and the risk of damaging the golden eye. One of those things would be fine, but all three is too much.

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It's valuable enough for the broke and starving Blood Cannibals to invest in an array that is on the same level of occluding as a Nascent Souls own efforts.

Ive also edited the Manuel action write-in to switch to just a general interference with the Blood Cannibals should the Golden Eye reveal that it was ultimately a bluff, as unlikely as that is. So even in the scenario where you're correct, only the 11 Wealth would be lost.

The Golden Eye being damaged only occurs if it eats a blowback that had been intended for Manuel anyway, which means itd have more than paid for the 11 Wealth anyway.

Not to mention the fact that Fu Tong might be a decoy in the first place, meant to distract Manuel or have us spend lots of money investigating it. A lot of your argument is based on how expensive and hard it would be to ward the city that well, that there's no waaaaay that Old Cannibal would go to that expense without having some sorta dangerous trump card in it. How do you know how expensive it was?

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The Blood Cannibals dont mine Spirit Stones, and theyre already starving as is. So considering so much of their stuff is tied into Blood Path shenanigans, any sacrifice of mortals is going to be expensive for them unless they crack our defenses.

It literally makes no sense to sacrifice an entire city on getting us to waste spirit stones on them.

As far as how we know it would be expensive?

"Lady Sarantapechos has her thoughts, but Archegetes, listen. Goodwill is ephemeral, wealth is forever. A proper Array Spire in the Burnished Crags will mean that not even Old Cannibal will be able to block our viewing of the warfront if it comes, and will allow us efficiency on the battlefield. Yes, yes, one of my relatives owns the best land to build it on, but I'm still right. It'll be cheaper, too. Sending a whole team to find materials and construct things in Strength Purity would cost far more."

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Whatever that occluding effect is, it surpasses the ability estimated of a Mid-Nascent Soul.

A working beyond Mid-Nascent Soul isn't something casually or cheaply done. Let's assume that this isn't some kind of array or ritual or mercenary Blood Path practitioner.

That means it's a Nascent Soul Divine Treasure that enables stealth relevant to Manuel's own ability to occlude stuff.

Under any conceivable interpretation, 11 Wealth to figure out what it is is a bargain compared to the asking price of whatever set this up in the first place. Whether that be objectively, or relatively speaking.

In what way is Manuel "severely handicapped"? His stamina is on the low side for a Nascent Soul but he's an incredibly skilled fighter.

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That is a severe handicap against a peer opponent.

Which Old Cannibal is. So having low stamina exacerbated by a serious wound basically means he wouldn't be able to keep up at all.

 

[no.]

It's valuable enough for the broke and starving Blood Cannibals to invest in an array that is on the same level of occluding as a Nascent Souls own efforts.

Ive also edited the Manuel action write-in to switch to just a general interference with the Blood Cannibals should the Golden Eye reveal that it was ultimately a bluff, as unlikely as that is. So even in the scenario where you're correct, only the 11 Wealth would be lost.

The Golden Eye being damaged only occurs if it eats a blowback that had been intended for Manuel anyway, which means itd have more than paid for the 11 Wealth anyway.


The Blood Cannibals dont mine Spirit Stones, and theyre already starving as is. So considering so much of their stuff is tied into Blood Path shenanigans, any sacrifice of mortals is going to be expensive for them unless they crack our defenses.

It literally makes no sense to sacrifice an entire city on getting us to waste spirit stones on them.

As far as how we know it would be expensive?

Whatever that occluding effect is, it surpasses the ability estimated of a Mid-Nascent Soul.

A working beyond Mid-Nascent Soul isn't something casually or cheaply done. Let's assume that this isn't some kind of array or ritual or mercenary Blood Path practitioner.

That means it's a Nascent Soul Divine Treasure that enables stealth relevant to Manuel's own ability to occlude stuff.

Under any conceivable interpretation, 11 Wealth to figure out what it is is a bargain compared to the asking price of whatever set this up in the first place. Whether that be objectively, or relatively speaking.



That is a severe handicap against a peer opponent.

Which Old Cannibal is. So having low stamina exacerbated by a serious wound basically means he wouldn't be able to keep up at all.

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Alright, you've convinced me, I'll change my vote. But if we're not upgrading the palace now, then I'm hoping that in turns after this one the two of us can start a voting bloc to save up at least 3-4 wealth toward the palace per turn. More than that if we reach that mythical no-crisis zone.

edit: I'm also not sure the Blood Cannibals are as broke and/or starving as you say. I'm sure they've improved their situation in the past century in some way.

 

[TehChron]

Alright, you've convinced me, I'll change my vote. But if we're not upgrading the palace now, then I'm hoping that in turns after this one the two of us can start a voting bloc to at save up at least 3-4 wealth toward the palace per turn. More than that if we reach that mythical no-crisis zone.

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We've already started this turn, if this plan wins!

edit: I'm also not sure the Blood Cannibals are as broke and/or starving as you say. I'm sure they've improved their situation in the past century in some way.

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To be honest the cost of the previous Child Gulper thing was that the Blood Cannibals lost most of their most mortal-rich territories on top of extracting the value that Corpse Gulpers own corpse represented

They may have improved over the past century, but the Cannibals being in dire straits was by deliberate design on our end, as Corpse.Gulper had fueled his own ascendancy by massively harvesting mortals beyond the point of sustainability on the Blood Cannibals.end.

 

[LordEdric]

[X] The best defense is a Well-Trained Army

 

[Olivebirdy]

Alright, you've convinced me, I'll change my vote. But if we're not upgrading the palace now, then I'm hoping that in turns after this one the two of us can start a voting bloc to save up at least 3-4 wealth toward the palace per turn. More than that if we reach that mythical no-crisis zone.

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I'm highly dubious it'll happen. 80 Wealth is a lot of wealth, voters are notoriously bad at saving up, and if you do settle for 4 Wealth a turn, it'll take twenty turns to get there, four Trial cycles. Many quests don't even last that long. And you'd have to convince the voters that spending 80 Wealth on a Technique Palace is worth the cost in order to get there. You'd have to convince me, I'm not convinced it's worth 80 Wealth to get.

We won't have the powered up FE as this war starts. We won't be able to upgrade the Palace before the next Trial, or the one after that, or the one after that, or the one after that. That's a lot of FE cultivators to lose.

It's lucky that we got the offer to upgrade it so cheaply and with such a low chance of failure. I have doubts we're going to get the same offer again, as Destasia's core flaw is that she's flighty and doesn't repeat offers.

Whatever that occluding effect is, it surpasses the ability estimated of a Mid-Nascent Soul.

A working beyond Mid-Nascent Soul isn't something casually or cheaply done. Let's assume that this isn't some kind of array or ritual or mercenary Blood Path practitioner.

That means it's a Nascent Soul Divine Treasure that enables stealth relevant to Manuel's own ability to occlude stuff.

Under any conceivable interpretation, 11 Wealth to figure out what it is is a bargain compared to the asking price of whatever set this up in the first place. Whether that be objectively, or relatively speaking.

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Are you sure of that? The Eye is capable of piercing that occlusion. That is, with the infusion of a lot of power. For all we know, she meant 'Not even Old Crow can block our sight... if we spend power on it.'

Edit: No wait. The Golden Eye Array Spire isn't one single scrying tower. You place each GEAS in each battlefield you want coverage over. Fu Tang isn't in the Burnished Crags. Fu Tang isn't in the targeted area, that's why it costs more to spy on it, not because of some superpowered warding.

[ ] Build a Golden Eye Array Spire in the Strength Purity Sect (6 Wealth)

"Archegetes, the Strength Purity Sect have allowed us to build a Golden Eye Array Targeting Spire in their lands, in return for the use of the Array during the war. It extends the range of the Array by some measure, and makes it more efficient over long distances. Moreover, allowing Strength Purity to use it to track and defeat our enemies will win much goodwill. It will inform them of any use of the Array in their territory, though, making it harder to spy on them directly.'

Xie Xinya wants to...

[ ] Build a Golden Eye Array Spire in the Burnished Crags (4 Wealth)

"Lady Sarantapechos has her thoughts, but Archegetes, listen. Goodwill is ephemeral, wealth is forever. A proper Array Spire in the Burnished Crags will mean that not even Old Cannibal will be able to block our viewing of the warfront if it comes, and will allow us efficiency on the battlefield. Yes, yes, one of my relatives owns the best land to build it on, but I'm still right. It'll be cheaper, too. Sending a whole team to find materials and construct things in Strength Purity would cost far more."

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@occipitallobe, how hard is it in Manuel's opinion, how much of an investment would it take for the Blood Cannibals to ward an area this strongly? Is the Eye working as intended? How dangerous does he think checking out Fu Tong would be?

 

[TehChron]

Uh, "The Warfront" was always going to extend over the borders and land surrounding the Crags, the Molds, and the Xi Kingdom

We knew that when we set up that Array and the various defenses in the first place?