Archer was an alternate version of him, not literally him from the future.
Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]
- Thread starter James D. Fawkes
- Start date
- Crossover
Well theoretically this Taylor is an alternate version of the Canon Taylor that is dead. So theoretically there is a dead version of Taylor.
Besides the throne of heroes theoretically exists outside of time, therefore it is possible to summon servants of the future, even if they have not died, they only need to eventually die.
And there was something very wrong with the summoning method in question by that point in time. Divine spirits were also supposed to be impossible to summon as well.
In contrast, in spite of the quick rebuild, Chaldea's summoning system is relatively intact and uncontaminated by evil curses. Of course this limits those who can't be summoned to the surviving crew of Chaldea.
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JadeKaiser
Uninspired Custom Title
- Location
- Under Your Bed
There was something wrong, yes, however that was not one of the effects of said wrong thing. The Throne of Heroes stands outside of time. Except where it doesn't with Dr. Roman using Ars Nova and such, but that's a whole 'nother thing. Also, the thing with divine spirits isn't really relevant; Medusa in particular having her own separate excuse for how she could be summoned, related to who and what she was. Namely, that she doesn't qualify as a Divine Spirit to begin with in that form, merely as a mortal spirit with a bit of Divinity. Much like Herk, who could be summoned as his demigod self despite his story ending with him becoming a full god, just by a different path. Using 'divine spirits were supposed to be impossible to summon' is pointless, because the Fuyuki Grail never actually did summon any divine spirits.
Additionally, from what we see of Chaldea's summoning system in canon is has far less restrictions of that sort compared to even the damaged Fuyuki Grail system. Chaldea's summoning system grabs all kinds of weird one-off situations and manages to summon them anyways. Heck, it even is capable of grabbing Scathach despite her not actually being capable of landing in the Throne proper (she literally cannot die), simply because she did the metaphysical equivalent of bumming on the Throne's front porch while her Land of Shadows was missing due to the incineration of human history.
It's perfectly fine that James D Fawkes isn't going to have her be summoned, but that's not a valid barrier to it. Kind of like "they don't have a catalyst" is a patently ridiculous thing to say when they have the living woman herself there, as well as all her earthly belongings. At least one of which (the knife) was something she had used and continues to use in the act of forming her actual legend. They have more catalysts for her than they know what to do with. Doesn't mean that James D Fawkes has to have her get summoned, especially because that's a whole mess of wibbly-wobbly that's just not worth it unless it's supposed to be a main factor in the story, but they absolutely do.
EDIT: Seriously, arguing that anything is impossible in the Nasuverse, unless directly stated, is an exercise in pointlessness. Or even if it is, half the time. It's possible if Nasu thinks it's cool. If the previously established rules say it shouldn't be, that just makes it cooler and means he'll have to throw more magibabble at it to make it work. If he even bothers with the magibabble. Trying to logic such things from previous instances of magibabble-flinging is especially pointless. He can and will retcon or "that's how it works in that timeline, but this one is different" it, or whatever else he has to do. Up to and including ignoring the contradiction outright.
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Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Stuff
James D. Fawkes
Court Scribe
- Location
- Avalon (Isle of Mists)
This is the trouble with Fate as a series, but this is also a peril of crossovers. One, Fate is so huge, there's no telling how any individual person got into it, which means that there's no way to know who has read the original VN and who hasn't, or who has just forgotten some of the things brought up in it. Two, the people who come into a crossover don't always know that much about the other half of it, so some people came here for Worm and maybe know a little bit about FGO, but aren't familiar at all with the greater Fate series.
So let me clarify a little bit: Heroic Spirits exist outside of time and space. You don't have to involve alternate world versions to start talking about Servants from the future being summoned to a time before their living selves died. Saber references this specifically right before Emiya and Shirou duke it out in the Einzbern mansion during the Unlimited Blade Works route. Because Heroic Spirits are atemporal, King Arthur could be summoned as Grand Saber to Atlantis in 12000 BC to fire a no-limits Excalibur at the White Titan. (EDIT: Saber doesn't reference this specific event, but this specific event is another example of what she does mention. She's saying that the whole reason Emiya can even be there is because Heroic Spirits are outside of time, and therefore can be summoned to a time before their own legend, so trying to kill his past self won't mean anything. Emiya himself acknowledges this and says it's true, but that the paradox might be enough if the Heroic Spirit of Emiya Shirou goes back and kills Emiya Shirou before Emiya Shirou can become a Heroic Spirit.)
That's it. There's no caveats to that.
Necessarily, it would have to be that way for Khepri to be summoned at any point at all, because QA is still going to be alive for the next few millennia, and if it enters powersaving mode, it could probably last until the sun swallows up the Earth it's perched on.
So while it might not happen here, in this story, yes, Heroic Spirit Khepri can be summoned to a point where Taylor is still actually alive, or even to a point before Taylor was even born. Khepri couldn't be summoned at all if it didn't work that way, because QA's lifespan is measured with too many zeroes otherwise.
So let me clarify a little bit: Heroic Spirits exist outside of time and space. You don't have to involve alternate world versions to start talking about Servants from the future being summoned to a time before their living selves died. Saber references this specifically right before Emiya and Shirou duke it out in the Einzbern mansion during the Unlimited Blade Works route. Because Heroic Spirits are atemporal, King Arthur could be summoned as Grand Saber to Atlantis in 12000 BC to fire a no-limits Excalibur at the White Titan. (EDIT: Saber doesn't reference this specific event, but this specific event is another example of what she does mention. She's saying that the whole reason Emiya can even be there is because Heroic Spirits are outside of time, and therefore can be summoned to a time before their own legend, so trying to kill his past self won't mean anything. Emiya himself acknowledges this and says it's true, but that the paradox might be enough if the Heroic Spirit of Emiya Shirou goes back and kills Emiya Shirou before Emiya Shirou can become a Heroic Spirit.)
That's it. There's no caveats to that.
Necessarily, it would have to be that way for Khepri to be summoned at any point at all, because QA is still going to be alive for the next few millennia, and if it enters powersaving mode, it could probably last until the sun swallows up the Earth it's perched on.
So while it might not happen here, in this story, yes, Heroic Spirit Khepri can be summoned to a point where Taylor is still actually alive, or even to a point before Taylor was even born. Khepri couldn't be summoned at all if it didn't work that way, because QA's lifespan is measured with too many zeroes otherwise.
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It is, however, easier to summon a hero at a time past their life if you're someone else cribbing the ritual to summon them that Gaia/Alaya/The Counter Force uses, so it's harder to summon Khepri if Taylor is still alive unless you take very deliberate actions to summon specifically her. It's just more likely you'll get someone else.
James D. Fawkes
Court Scribe
- Location
- Avalon (Isle of Mists)
Yes. Because catalysts for Heroic Spirits of the future are likely either to not yet exist or not yet have known significance, it's more common for Heroic Spirits summoned from "the future" to be summoned by the World itself to handle a problem in the past. Hence Marie Antoinette and Mozart in 15th century France, Tesla in Victorian London, or Scathach and Edison in 18th century America.
It is still possible to use catalysts for future servants, they just tend to be entirely accidental. Like rin using the gem to power the ritual i believe, or she just had it on her, regardless it was used as a catalyst before it could reasonably be seen as a catalyst by her. So that's a neat thing
- Location
- Philadelphia
Rin was actually some special bullshit since she had left the gem with Shirou after using up its power to give him a new heart and in that timeline he just... Kept it as a keep sake to the point it became a part of his Saint Graph and thus it was effectively a reverse catalyst that made him "attuned to bring summoned by Rin".
- Location
- Belgium
But there is an extra requirement.
That one is told to us in FGO, by Merlin during the Babylon Singularity, and is confirmed during the SIN Lostbelt.
To be a Heroic Spirit, the base personality in the Throne can only reach the Throne by dying.
Merlin complained that he is not a real Heroic Spirit, because he never died in the first place. He is still alive, imprisoned in his tower in Avalon.
(Also trolling Romani with giving advice using the Magi*Mari website, while humanity was burned away...)
He claimed that he could be summoned as a Servant because he cheated, as during the era of Babylon, he wasn't born yet, and thus could be considered as being dead.
Well, Merlin does tend to break lots of rules just for the fun of it, but this one has to be a record.
And in the SIN Lostbelt, Chaldea was pretty much incapable of summoning a Servant, because the Throne was empty.
All the Heroes of the SIN Lostbelt were still alive, being in stasis until China had need of them, but not dead.
And because of the fact the Throne was empty in that Lostbelt, Servants of Proper Human History weren't reachable either.
Since Taylor isn't dead, and QA isn't either, she can not be truly summoned as a Servant.
An alternate of her could be summoned, and those can be vastly different. Just look like Shirou and Counter Guardian Emiya.
And since I believe in Ward people try to turn Khepri into a boogieman story, or a tall tale, there is a good chance there already is a Phantom Spirit Khepri somewhere in the Throne.
Since Servants such as Nursery Rhyme and Hessian Lobo exist, well, chances are Khepri might be present as well.
But even so, I strongly doubt any version of Khepri can be summoned, mainly because Earth Bet is strongly on the way of becoming a Lostbelt, if it isn't one already. Or at least a pruned timeline.
And I think even the Alien God would consider Earth Bet a lost cause. Although an Earth Bet Lostbelt might be pretty scary, even for Chaldea. Especially for Chaldea.
thing is tho, earth bet has been basically evacuated, pruning it would do little, except maybe just remove threats like the machine army. But as said earlier, since servants are atemporal, taylor doesn't need to die for a future khepri to be summonable, eventually she and qa will die, the same cannot be said for merlin.
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James D. Fawkes
Court Scribe
- Location
- Avalon (Isle of Mists)
As I recall, the actual reason summoning was so hard in SIN (LB3) wasn't that the heroes were all alive, but that because those who would have become Heroic Spirits were all still alive, the foundation for the mystery of "summoning the spirits of the celebrated dead" was virtually nonexistent. Because those who would become Heroic Spirits remained alive, the acceptance of "these people still live" weakened the foundation for summoning Heroic Spirits. It had nothing to do with the Throne being empty (because the Throne is never empty) and everything to do with the "software" for Servant Summoning being outdated, clunky, and hard to boot up.
I think there was also something about the Throne having trouble connecting to LB3 because there were no recognized "dead" heroes? It's been a hot minute.
The problem with the way you're trying to frame it here is that it would necessarily mean that Scathach couldn't have been there in the American Myth War. After all, Scathach only "dies" when the "outside" of the world is destroyed during the Incineration of Humanity, which would mean that she was still alive during the American Revolution, and therefore couldn't be summoned to deal with Cu Alter.
Again, this was established ages ago, and while we've had a few cases like Merlin and Scathach that give us some new perspective on it, the fundamental basis hasn't changed. Heroic Spirits exist outside of time and space. They exist regardless of past or future or present. As long as you have a catalyst and the ritual for the summoning of Heroic Spirits is properly supported, it is possible to summon the Servant of a hero that hasn't even been born or one that hasn't yet died.
- Location
- USA
Don't forget Sherlock too. Unless I'm misremembering, part of his deal is that any timeline in which he could have existed as a real person is one that had been purged, but that doesn't stop him from being a hero that existed in those timelines that got recorded to the throne. Or, you know, Arturia, who is maybe kind of explicitly not actually dead because she made a wish slash deal as she was dieing so is sitting in limbo between summonings as a still living person.
A major consistent theme in Fate- no, in all of Nasu's works- is building a very detailed and thought out set of rules for how everything works, everything, and then start introducing characters to break every single rule sooner or later. Any and every argument about how things work or don't work in this setting really can be responded to with a "you're right, except," because that's how rules work with Nasu.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If i remember correctly...
In Lostbelt 3 everything was peaceful and heroes weren't needed, meaning that the Counterforce can only summon Servants like Mordred and Spartacus, servants that incarnate rebelion.
Then Spartacus sacrificed himself and the flame of rebelion awakened in the hearts of the Lostbelt inhabitants of the village he saved, allowing the Counterforce to summon more servants.
- Location
- The High Ground (Advantageous Position)
I completely forgot that Shakespeare had that... it is an utterly broken ability in the right circumstances if you think about it. I can not wait to see how Taylor will munchkin this to her advantage.
floppy_seal99
D-O-G-A-R-S DOGARS!
- Location
- snooping as usual
Taylor hooks up with Cu, summons Heroic Spirit Benjamin Terrell
"You didn't have to summon YOUR Teacher as well, Princess."
Axel
Tenno Wax
- Location
- Italy
- Pronouns
- He
No, it was because in SIN the people didn't have needs to be fullified, or desires (and obviously no heroes that died)
QIN made them content in their ignorance.
So the throne distanced itself from that world
Spartacus, with his rebellion, lighted a spark in these people, a burning want to know more, to become more
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- Location
- Some City
I don't really have the knowledge and context to enter into a debate on whether or not it should be possible for Taylor to summon her own Heroic Spirit, so instead i'm going to take the statement from the author that at least within this story it is technically possible and run through what forms she could be summoned in, because i have been thinking about this all day and you all now get to suffer with me
Absolutely:
Ruler- this one should be obvious. From her baseline personality to her Skitter phase, moving up to the Warlord, to Weaver, and especially in regards to Khepri Taylor did not desire power for herself but simply pursued the dominance of her surroundings in order to save lives because nobody else would. makes sense to me, though it could probably be argued by some
Assassin- the mirror to the above, in pursuit of her goals Taylor reeeeally doesn't fight fairly, because she was relatively weak in a straight fight and her story was not particularly glorious. instead she fought dirty and unfairly, taking advantage of anything she could exploit to defeat the enemy, and worked particularly well from positions of concealment and trickery. and...hoonestly this one might fit her more, since Taylor herself is afraid that this is the type of Servant that would synergize with her
Rider- somewhat more limited but Taylor was known for some time during her career for her transportation, most of her career riding around in a personalized Dragoncraft but most famously riding around on a giant beetle (a giant beetle that was so beloved by the people she protected/her allies that after HIS death they encased his body in bronze as a memorial). a bit weaker but still notable.
Berserker- i guess this one is a question of how prominent singular but perhaps notable events affected her legend. one might make the argument that by her status as a parahuman she was not all that sane regardless but i can think of a couple of points where she was lost to madness/bouts of questionable sanity. first her bout of memory loss courtesy of Bonesaw at the tail end of the S9 arc, and more memorably her willing dismissal of sanity for the sake of power during the battle against Scion.
Questionable:
Lancer- much like the above but with a single memorable event, that that one time she took up Armsmaster's halberd and shoved it up Leviathan's ass. very small and ironically a very quiet moment for Taylor personally (which is why it's kind of questionable) but to me this one sticks out, because it is perhaps Taylor at her most 'heroic'. she had every reason to run in that moment; it was the smart idea, it was the wise idea, nobody would have blamed her for running in that moment when she could do nothing. but Taylor had a moment of reflection, realized that despite everything she wanted to save people even if it meant sacrificing her life, took up the weapon of someone she respected and had since betrayed her and fought a monster she had no hope of killing in order to save a couple of civilians. to me? that sticks out a lot. on the whole though, this one moment was nothing compared to the rest of her legend, so this would probably be one of if not the weakest form she could be summoned in
Archer?- like, i get it, she had a few critical moments where she used guns and did so with distinction and accuracy (and some of her more infamous acts were performed with her gun) but it doesn't really jive with the rest of what she did. i guess this one kind of begs to question whether or not you accept the Lancer argument. if yes, then you could probably see an instance of Archer. if not, then same here
Avenger- much like with Jeanne Alter i could see an instance of Taylor that embodies the rage and bitterness of her constant betrayal at the hands of superiors and authority figures and people she respected and looked up to, angry at the derisions and skepticism she faced constantly despite her best (and to her mind obvious) attempts to do the best for the most people, and finally snapped, gave a resounding 'screw it' and went full biblical plague. strikes me as more of an antagonist to the party than a summoned Servant, and we've also kinda seen this character setup in Jalter herself, so unless it serves a larger narrative purpose (which i'm mostly certain Shakespeare himself will already fill) it's kind of unnecessary
Absolutely not:
the ones i don't really see her fitting are Saber and Caster, because she was not really a melee fighter and she really didn't have any access to magic. fair enough
what do you guys think? Do you agree? disagree? why or why not? i'll admit this is only my personal interpretation so i'd love to hear yours
Absolutely:
Ruler- this one should be obvious. From her baseline personality to her Skitter phase, moving up to the Warlord, to Weaver, and especially in regards to Khepri Taylor did not desire power for herself but simply pursued the dominance of her surroundings in order to save lives because nobody else would. makes sense to me, though it could probably be argued by some
Assassin- the mirror to the above, in pursuit of her goals Taylor reeeeally doesn't fight fairly, because she was relatively weak in a straight fight and her story was not particularly glorious. instead she fought dirty and unfairly, taking advantage of anything she could exploit to defeat the enemy, and worked particularly well from positions of concealment and trickery. and...hoonestly this one might fit her more, since Taylor herself is afraid that this is the type of Servant that would synergize with her
Rider- somewhat more limited but Taylor was known for some time during her career for her transportation, most of her career riding around in a personalized Dragoncraft but most famously riding around on a giant beetle (a giant beetle that was so beloved by the people she protected/her allies that after HIS death they encased his body in bronze as a memorial). a bit weaker but still notable.
Berserker- i guess this one is a question of how prominent singular but perhaps notable events affected her legend. one might make the argument that by her status as a parahuman she was not all that sane regardless but i can think of a couple of points where she was lost to madness/bouts of questionable sanity. first her bout of memory loss courtesy of Bonesaw at the tail end of the S9 arc, and more memorably her willing dismissal of sanity for the sake of power during the battle against Scion.
Questionable:
Lancer- much like the above but with a single memorable event, that that one time she took up Armsmaster's halberd and shoved it up Leviathan's ass. very small and ironically a very quiet moment for Taylor personally (which is why it's kind of questionable) but to me this one sticks out, because it is perhaps Taylor at her most 'heroic'. she had every reason to run in that moment; it was the smart idea, it was the wise idea, nobody would have blamed her for running in that moment when she could do nothing. but Taylor had a moment of reflection, realized that despite everything she wanted to save people even if it meant sacrificing her life, took up the weapon of someone she respected and had since betrayed her and fought a monster she had no hope of killing in order to save a couple of civilians. to me? that sticks out a lot. on the whole though, this one moment was nothing compared to the rest of her legend, so this would probably be one of if not the weakest form she could be summoned in
Archer?- like, i get it, she had a few critical moments where she used guns and did so with distinction and accuracy (and some of her more infamous acts were performed with her gun) but it doesn't really jive with the rest of what she did. i guess this one kind of begs to question whether or not you accept the Lancer argument. if yes, then you could probably see an instance of Archer. if not, then same here
Avenger- much like with Jeanne Alter i could see an instance of Taylor that embodies the rage and bitterness of her constant betrayal at the hands of superiors and authority figures and people she respected and looked up to, angry at the derisions and skepticism she faced constantly despite her best (and to her mind obvious) attempts to do the best for the most people, and finally snapped, gave a resounding 'screw it' and went full biblical plague. strikes me as more of an antagonist to the party than a summoned Servant, and we've also kinda seen this character setup in Jalter herself, so unless it serves a larger narrative purpose (which i'm mostly certain Shakespeare himself will already fill) it's kind of unnecessary
Absolutely not:
the ones i don't really see her fitting are Saber and Caster, because she was not really a melee fighter and she really didn't have any access to magic. fair enough
what do you guys think? Do you agree? disagree? why or why not? i'll admit this is only my personal interpretation so i'd love to hear yours
- Location
- Colorado
The only thing off the top of my head is that like half the Caster class didn't actually have magic in life. When you get right down to it she has the qualifications for relatively low ranked item creation, territory creation, has swarms of minions, and even has limited clairvoyance. She's a better fit for Caster than Lancer, and given how Medusa, Parvati, and even Karna qualify for that class; using Armsmaster's halberd that one time is definitely enough to qualify her if an author wants.
JadeKaiser
Uninspired Custom Title
- Location
- Under Your Bed
Perhaps instead of Berserker, Taylor at the moment of defeating Scion but before Contessa gave her 9mm surgery would probably qualify as a Beast. Not a Beast candidate, but a full-on Beast. A threat to all humanity, become that way out of her love for the same. She might also get Berserker for other reasons and parts of her career, though.
That is sorta confirmed with how she gets along with Fou.
Really, a lot of those incidents would fit just as easily if not better into the Berserker category - when you get angry enough at someone that you snap and murder them so hard that the PRT has to issue a press statement blaming an endbringer (Alexandria and Tagg), you're in a good position to be a Berserker. A Berserker with an Anti-Army noble phantasm strong enough to kill the supposedly invulnerable. Not someone I'd want to have summoned on the same planet I was trying to live on.
Stahor
BookWorm
- Location
- Russia, Moscow
1. As noted, Caster is a good fit, due to item and territory creation and combat style.
2. Archer with broad interpretation "long range fighter" and also clairvoyance pretty iconic for the class.
3. Rider, but not for reasons you mentioned. Khepri is not widely known to loose her sanity, so it may be not a part of her legend, so to speak. So she can have Alexander-like NP where she summons capes under her control or more direct copy where she drags target into Reality Marble of Golden Morning.
4. "True Khepri" would not be Berserker, but a Foreigner, due to very... close connection to QA.
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The version of QA connecting to Taylor is one that already had uploaded Taylor into itself by merging personalities.
This will have an impact.
This will have an impact.