Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

[readerdreamer]

So it was never really meant to be an arc for Ritsuka then? That's... disappointing. Because that still leaves the issue of how long the fic has already gotten and one of the original protagonists is somehow still out of focus. It has been what, 128 threadmarks now according to SV? And despite that Ritsuka has still gotten very little focus overall, and the most he has gotten would be an Interlude that ultimately won't even show much of what is happening to him?

That's... yeah, I really can only say that it's pretty sad. I hoped for too much I suppose.

 

[James D. Fawkes]

So it was never really meant to be an arc for Ritsuka then? That's... disappointing. Because that still leaves the issue of how long the fic has already gotten and one of the original protagonists is somehow still out of focus. It has been what, 128 threadmarks now according to SV? And despite that Ritsuka has still gotten very little focus overall, and the most he has gotten would be an Interlude that ultimately won't even show much of what is happening to him?

That's... yeah, I really can only say that it's pretty sad. I hoped for too much I suppose.

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It was meant to be part of an arc for Ritsuka, but really only the beginning. An "inciting incident" for what he's going to be getting up to soon enough.

 

[Morket]

I kinda wanna see an omake of what-if where the twins died and Taylor had to do the Grand Order herself and subsequently fails to grow enough to be the kind of person that can defeat Goetia,

My money's on a party wipe by London like every Crypter except for Daybit and Wodime, or her chaffing under Gilgamesh too much that they die to Tiamat

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Spoiler: Crypters Spoilers

If my memory serves me correctly, according to the canon, when Wodime went through visions of the Alien God in order to revive other Crypters, where he was going through Solomon Arc with other members of Team A, all the other Crypters died for the same reason — Solomon killed an additional other member of Team A, since for him the presence of two holders of the Sirius Light at the same time was a great threat to his end goal.

The only reason why Daybit is the only exception, is that due to the fact that he, through some connection with the Angels, made a combo of Artifacts from all previous singularities in Oceania, which defeated Solomon before London.

By the way, this is a rather funny reason why Wodime's buffs in Olympia only go for Orleans, Septem and Oceania, and London gives him a Debuff (since in all his walkthroughs it was there that he lost the rest of his friends).

FGO spits on it.

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I don't particularly like how the only Worm here is Taylor. I mean, I understand that you don't want to use any of the characters or worldbuilding from Worm here, making it more of a "Worm is not canon except for the plot, because everything else is Natsuverse", but really…
Isn't it possible to take at least some elements from Worm besides Taylor?

I don't know how to put it correctly, but it seems to me that because the world around Taylor works by different rules, she becomes less and less herself, and more and more some kind of OC that takes her backstory and a few abilities.

This is why Cookiesndip refers to Ryuuji. In his works, Ryuuji doesn't make the world completely separate from the Worm or completely rewrite it, but more… Complementary to it. Ryuuji takes the original message of both works and puts them on roughly equal levels of importance, which makes Taylor's changes there seem more logical, since it doesn't completely switch the world around Taylor to the other record. There is a smooth transition from Worm, where everything is just terrible, to a more balanced level, aka everything is not terrible, but not very good either.

This is just my subjective opinion(with BIG amount of bias), so don't take it completely seriously.

---

Partially separate from the above post, but the more I think about how Taylor going through this story's psychological therapy arc will interact with Chaldea in Cosmos in the Lostbelt, the more I want to see it.

Simply due to the fact that this entire story arc has a very high chance of causing Taylor to relapse into her old thinking and be even more traumatized than she already is.

Spoiler: Lostbelt Spoilers

For first, give up some degree of control, because this is required by not very good authorities, in the person of the Magic Association. Afterward, the situation worsened due to the behind-the-scenes work of the Apostles. Then the appearance of an incompetent representative of the authorities, who will now order her in the person of Goredolf. Then the murder of most of the former personnel of Chaldea, except for Holmes, Meuniere and a couple of other minor characters (Most likely Maria will die, because, as with Goetia, she is too in the way of they plan).

And here the real fun begins in the form of:
1) Bleaching of Earth, which even the death of the Alien God cannot cancel
2) Information that her former team betrayed all of humanity and now works for Alien God to create they personal "kingdoms"
3) The presence of the Alien God himself which may be a second coming of Scion but worse
4) Clearing of the Lostbelts, which will clearly beat Taylor's sense of nostalgia for Earth Beth and what could have happened to it
5) And many, MANY other different kind of situations, that definitely would jump on every Taylor's trauma like a kid on trampoline(especially Avalon la Fey, because this place is, by the end, literally Golden Morning 2.0 Electric Bugaloo, now with more Assholes who refuse to cooperate with each other).

And this is without thinking that with the presence of Taylor, the Alien God's plan itself could be completely different, for Taylor could become both a problem that would need to be eliminated and an advantage, for the presence of a potential Beast could be a path to faster and more confident victory of the Alien God.

For additional psychological trauma, I just see how in the prologue to Lostbelts, when the NFF and Oprichniki kill everyone in Chaldea, Taylor has to hide in some narrow place, under the corpses of her former colleagues, and she knows that no one can help her, for it is SHE who must help everyone in this situation, as a result of which she receives additional psychological damage from repeating her trigger trauma and her moral injury "is obligated to help everyone, because no one should be in my place when I was in the locker."

Lord, how gorgeous the second FGO Arc is, in comparison with the first, and how much more in the spirit of the Worm it is…

 

[Pinklestia]

these frustrations

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Cut the fat. We already saw Chaldea doing what they can, so just jump to what our dear boy is doing and stay there. Brevity is wit.

Do we really need more chapters of Taylor wanting to jump the gun and nothing is happening? Nope the point was made, cut to the action.

 

[HeWhoLurks]

Spoiler: Lostbelt Spoilers

For first, give up some degree of control, because this is required by not very good authorities, in the person of the Magic Association. Afterward, the situation worsened due to the behind-the-scenes work of the Apostles. Then the appearance of an incompetent representative of the authorities, who will now order her in the person of Goredolf. Then the murder of most of the former personnel of Chaldea, except for Holmes, Meuniere and a couple of other minor characters (Most likely Maria will die, because, as with Goetia, she is too in the way of they plans).

And here the real fun begins in the form of:
1) Bleaching of Earth, which even the death of the Alien God cannot cancel
2) Information that her former team betrayed all of humanity and now works for Alien God to create they personal "kingdoms"
3) The presence of the Alien God himself which may be a second coming of Scion but worse
4) Clearing of the Lostbelts, which will clearly beat Taylor's sense of nostalgia for Earth Beth and what could have happened to it
5) And many, MANY other different kind of situations, that definitely would jump on every Taylor's trauma like a kid on trampoline(especially Avalon la Fey, because this place is, by the end, literally Golden Morning 2.0 Electric Bugaloo, now with more Assholes who refuse to cooperate with each other).

And this is without thinking that with the presence of Taylor, the Alien God's plan itself could be completely different, for Taylor could become both a problem that would need to be eliminated and an advantage, for the presence of a potential Beast could be a path to faster and more confident victory of the Alien God.

For additional psychological trauma, I just see how in the prologue to Lostbelts, when the NFF and Oprichniki kill everyone in Chaldea, Taylor has to hide in some narrow place, under the corpses of her former colleagues, and she knows that no one can help her, for it is SHE who must help everyone in this situation, as a result of which she receives additional psychological damage from repeating her trigger trauma and her moral injury "is obligated to help everyone, because no one should be in my place when I was in the locker."

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Olga being alive here should heavily change the opening part of the Lostbelt arc, particularly the Magus Association's response and will also impede Goredolf from becoming Chaldea's new director, as she's still one of the Lords of the Clocktower.

 

[Morket]

Olga being alive here should heavily change the opening part of the Lostbelt arc, particularly the Magus Association's response and will also impede Goredolf from becoming Chaldea's new director, as she's still one of the Lords of the Clocktower.

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Not entirely sure. Even if Olga is alive, she can hardly oppose anything to the behind-the-scenes dealings of the Alien Apostles because, let us remember, that Chaldea was literally auctioned off, in the canon, to Goredolf in no small part thanks to Koyanskaya's manipulation.

An organization that has almost the greatest firepower in the world, thanks to the presence of more than a hundred servants, some of whom are capable of single-handedly destroying an entire planet, such as Gilgamesh or Karna.

And this is not counting the fact that according to the spoilers we have, the Alien God was somehow part of Marysbury's plan, which means that, most likely, the elimination of Olga's political power will be offset by the political power of Marysbury himself (and we know that he is much more dangerous his daughter, both as a magician and as a politician).

 

[famfrit]

Spoiler: Crypters Spoilers

If my memory serves me correctly, according to the canon, when Wodime went through visions of the Alien God in order to revive other Crypters, where he was going through Solomon Arc with other members of Team A, all the other Crypters died for the same reason — Solomon killed an additional other member of Team A, since for him the presence of two holders of the Sirius Light at the same time was a great threat to his end goal.

The only reason why Daybit is the only exception, is that due to the fact that he, through some connection with the Angels, made a combo of Artifacts from all previous singularities in Oceania, which defeated Solomon before London.

By the way, this is a rather funny reason why Wodime's buffs in Olympia only go for Orleans, Septem and Oceania, and London gives him a Debuff (since in all his walkthroughs it was there that he lost the rest of his friends).

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Spoiler: Crypters Spoilers

The way I heard it the Crypters did the singularity simulations on easy mode with several big threat like Tiamat and Goddess Rhon removed along with the huge advantage of getting to start them all on their first day so the enemies weren't all set up with things like the huge wyvern army or Camelot.

Regarding how far Taylor would get on her own either in it or in actuality it depends on a lot of things for example if she gets to contract to Mash because ignoring the obvious stuff the importance of her as a tank especially in Fuyuki Mash's contract grants her master the poison immunity which is vital for surviving the smog in London.

 

[Young Pyromancer]

I don't know how to put it correctly, but it seems to me that because the world around Taylor works by different rules, she becomes less and less herself, and more and more some kind of OC that takes her backstory and a few possibilities.

Click to shrink...

So you're saying that as the story goes on she's changing as a person?

I think that's half the point of the fic. Taylor experiencing character development and changing as a person. It's both something a perfectly valid approach to and exceptionally well suited to post-gm fics.

 

[Notspecialdude]

Regarding how far Taylor would get on her own either in it or in actuality it depends on a lot of things for example if she gets to contract to Mash because ignoring the obvious stuff the importance of her as a tank especially in Fuyuki Mash's contract grants her master the poison immunity which is vital for surviving the smog in London

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I personally believe that Taylor would not fail any of the physical trials of Part 1 in a solo run. Her experience as a cape will see her through.

I'd put her fail point in Camelot. Not because of any one trial, but because that's where Atlas revealed Romani had a secret. There's no way a Post GM, solo Taylor would trust Romani after Holmes' reveal. She would force the truth out. Inadvertently revealing the final ring of Solomon Romani was hiding and killing the only win condition Chaldea had.

Her beating Babylon wouldn't matter because Goetia would be prepared and kill Romani the instant he could. Making the Temple of Solomon completely unwinable.

 

[Morket]

So you're saying that as the story goes on she's changing as a person?

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Partially yes, partially no.

My problem is... I don't know how to put it into words, but her development seems…

Not entirely natural? Yes, this probably makes the most sense.

My issue with the story seems to be that Taylor doesn't develop in the way that she could have developed without a number of limitations imposed by the author.

Like Taylor's lack of obsession with preparing for the next confrontation. And I'm not even talking about studying the primordial runes or trying to learn ancient martial arts, but trying to make the most of the situation. For example, why isn't she more actively trying to take advantage of the combined knowledge and capabilities of both El-Melloi and Juge Liang?

He is the owner of Item Construction B and Territory Creation A along with the knowledge of simultaneous modern magical practices and ancient Chinese magical practices, why doesn't he help Da Vinci with restoring Chaldea's capabilities? Why doesn't he create a set of magical items for our team to help them on their journeys, like his fan or other legendary items from his history? Why does he, with Discerning Eye A, not see that in front of him is a naturally born genius of tactics and strategy in the person of Taylor, a girl who, literally at the age of 16, demonstrated developed tactics sufficient to confront opponents who were qualitatively and quantitatively superior to her, thanks to which she won about fifty villains and heroes, captured an entire city, survived combat with at least 4 S-class threats and was an important part in defeating 3 of them? He is the owner of unique experience in fighting ancient magicians and warriors, noted in history as a brilliant strategist, as well as one of the most qualified teachers in the entire Nasuverse. Why doesn't she try to exploit him like a real caster, who is also relatively constantly free (because he has an additional 8 hours a day, and is different from normal people)? Or why doesn't he try to get the most out of her, like a teacher who specializes in using the slightest advantage to get the maximum result?

And this is the first of many problems that stand out to me about the problems with Taylor's development as a character.

Upd:
And these are just abilities, but there is also a social part.

For example, why doesn't Taylor try to remember her mistake when interacting with the Chicago Wards and doesn't try to make a slightly closer friendship with Romani or Da Vinci (although Da Vinci can be left for later — she still has something to do besides socialization)? Trying to get to know Maria better in order to help her with her impostor complex and feelings of abandonment caused in her by Marysbury? Why not, for example, make a casual friendship with someone from the Chaldea workforce, such as Meuniere(to equally use Taylor to went beside the Chaldea curtains to help as understand how this organization works and maybe prepare some ground for theoretical Lostbelt continuation), and use her leadership skills to relieve Mary of some burden of responsibilities and help speed up the restoration of Chaldea? After all, she has experience in organizing reconstruction after a disaster, not only due to Brockton Bay, but also, most likely, the experience she gained while being Ward.

Taylor has tremendous organizational and leadership skills, so why is it that out of everything Taylor does, the only thing we've seen her do during breaks is teaching Mash to swim and study the history of the next singularity to be kinda prepared, because as we have seen — most of the knowledge that she finds not so helpful as it could have been?

Because of this, it seems to me(highly subjectively) that Taylor's development as a character does not look completely natural. She is like a wild flower that has gone through a lot in the wild, and now, having found herself in conditions that will help her bloom, but the Author trims her leaves, like a bonsai, so that she grows not like she would naturally grow, but the way the master wants to give his bonsai its own unique and beautiful, but unnatural shape.

 

[Cookiesndip]

So you're saying that as the story goes on she's changing as a person?

I think that's half the point of the fic. Taylor experiencing character development and changing as a person. It's both something a perfectly valid approach to and exceptionally well suited to post-gm fics.

Click to shrink...

The problem is the FGO (bland) power of friendship ethos and message is entirely overriding Worm's and Taylor's existing ethos, and is always championed entirely above her own, something to replace and be constantly derided for possessing, a mere problem to be solved rather than actually being treated with any sort of respect or fairness by the narrative at all. This is a major problem, because it kills the sole aspect of Worm Taylor even carries here, her unique ethos built over half a decade of hellish conflict, and further homogenizes her with Ritsuka, when there is already so little to even differentiate her. She has the exact same role, the exact, same level of skill, the exact same lack of improvement in anything, the exact same abilities (except Ritsuka gets Servant shadows instead of useless bugs that never do anything), the exact same level of agency changing nothing, the exact same usefulness, and the exact same passivity, the exact same (seemingly) nonexistent talent. Point being, there's already pretty much nothing to actually differentiate her from canon Ritsuka in the slightest at this point, literally the only thing that remained was her personality and unique ethos born from half a decade, which is also slowly being replaced wholesale. Just rename her Ritsuka at this point, if that's the direction things are going, that Taylor is always wrong, and she should feel bad for not being Ritsuka.

Sure, she spent a couple years healing with Olga, but that literally changes nothing about her awareness that she has a proven solution to an apocalypse, and she's in one, fighting beings just like Zion with a bunch of heroes to throw at them. The Crypters is what should hopefully seal the deal, a betrayal from her allies and the death of her friends.

And I call bullshit about unity. Fate is a shithole, the Clock Tower are nigh-universally amoral sociopaths, Chaldea, despite being UN, aren't even the product of any actual unity, but by Animusphere having infinite money cheats. Just see the bullshit that happens post-Arc.

So, the question remains, what is even left of Taylor, or Worm in this crossover at this point? She isn't being proactive, she isn't trying to improve herself so she can actually do anything beyond cheerlead and offer useless strategy and tactics that most Servants are vastly better at (learn something from the heroic servants, christ almighty), she isn't exerting any agency, she isn't even applying her ethos.

FGO spits on it.

Click to shrink...

Not exactly.

The only reason all the HS could even work together in canon, despite the widely varied ethos between chaotic evil world-destroying Avengers, and lawful good paladins, was because of Ritsuka's sheer cheat-level charisma and distorted mentality. Not to mention that none really have any sort of choice here, or even have anywhere to go but Chaldea, and even if they did, they're still HS supported solely by the Fate system and are thus are tied there. So yes, all Servants have a boot on their necks, with nowhere to go, nothing to do, and nowhere to hide, they have no choice but to fight, and Ritsuka is merely the velvet glove.

Furthermore, Olga, despite being a close friend to Taylor, and having good intentions still has one core problem. She's acting exactly like the PRT and other authority figures did in Worm. See, don't you remember all the numerous times Taylor was told to shut up and do nothing in Worm for reasons? About supporting the shitty status quo because it's dangerous and could fuck things up, that's it's better to maintain the status quo and wait instead. Olga is doing the exact same shit, she should be jumping to save Ritsuka regardless of the risks or orders, it's the utmost core of Taylor's ethos to never be a bystander, and that is exactly what she has been made to do here for the exact same reasons that other people gave her in Worm as a rationale to never do anything - risk. Without that core aspect, what's even left her? She should be jumping in to save Ritsuka, not sitting on her ass and sucking her thumb.

Because of this, it seems to me(highly subjectively) that Taylor's development as a character does not look completely natural. She is like a wild flower that has gone through a lot in the wild, and now, having found herself in conditions that will help her bloom, but the Author trims her leaves, like a bonsai, so that she grows not like she would naturally grow, but the way the master wants to give his bonsai in its own unique and beautiful, but unnatural shape.

Click to shrink...

So much this.

 

[Notspecialdude]

Snip...

Click to shrink...

So what you're saying is. You want her to be doing nothing... in the brig.

You also forget that Taylor isn't the biggest dog here. She doesn't have her bugs, and several powerful people are against that rash action. Including several SERVANTS. If Taylor went rogue, she would be captured by several Servants and FORCED to stay put. Her going in is a risky last resort and everyone agrees. Taylor is not stupid. She knows the consequences for a direct insubordination like that. She can't be a tyrant in Chaldea like she was in a bay. Even under the lens of pragmatism, her best option is to stay put.

Also, Ritsuka having a distorted mentality? Bullshit. It's said over and over that he is an ordinary kid with no mention issues. WoG says it outright.

 

[Cookiesndip]

Also, Ritsuka having a distorted mentality? Bullshit. It's said over and over that he is an ordinary kid with no mention issues. WoG says it outright.

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It's said pretty damn explicitly by multiple characters that Ritsuka is a distorted individual in canon. Yes, they're not Emiya Shirou-level twisted, but they don't have a normal mentality.

Their alignment is Neutral Good,[10] but the Lion King, one of Chaldea's enemies, defined them as a soul who "knows good but commits evil, and allows evil while being good."[11] James Moriarty similarly describes the protagonist as "good, yet not hating evil, tormented by evil, yet carrying on doing good".[12] They are highly empathetic and have a gift when it comes to dealing with Servants, in no small part because they believe that everyone has something about them that deserves respect even if their views are irreconcilable, and are able to form strong ties with even the most dangerous and unstable of Servants summoned by Chaldea. While they are aware that their own skill as a magus is questionable at best, they trust in their Servants to act as their strength in their stead.

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[Morket]

Also, Ritsuka having a distorted mentality? Bullshit. It's said over and over that he is an ordinary kid with no mention issues. WoG says it outright.

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He makes friends with such characters as Douman, Koyanskaya, Oberon, Lovecraft Foreingners and Moriarty. And at the same time with people like Gilgamesh, Artoria, many berserkers, Oni, Angra Mainyu, Kiara and others servants from all over the alignment spectrum.

At the same time, they all see his friendship with them as frank. And this does not cause him any mental dissonance.

In my opinion, he was definitely hit on the head by something heavy. In a good way, of course.

 

[Notspecialdude]

It's said pretty damn explicitly by multiple characters that Ritsuka is a distorted individual in canon. Yes, they're not Emiya Shirou-level twisted, but they don't have a normal mentality.

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Fair enough, but I attribute that to the requirements of the job. At the very least, at the start, he/she was normal. At some point that changed. I'll give you that.

 

[rafuki22]

The way I heard

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Only Rhongomyniad didn't appear, and that was because she was considered an anomaly by the Alien God. It isn't said that the simulation singularities were easier than the real deal. Having into account the extent of what the Lostbelts can simulate, The simulated Tiamat and Goetia were probably the same as the real deals.

The only reason why Daybit is the only exception,

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That was never said?

since for him the presence of two holders of the Sirius Light at the same time was a great threat to his end goal.

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Even though that's possible, that wasn' really said or implied.

I personally believe that Taylor would not fail any of the physical trials of Part 1 in a solo run. Her experience as a cape will see her through.

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Experience isn't enough, personality for the moral trials is what matters, in my opinion, and i may be wrong, but i would say that she would fail in America more likely than not, but yes, Camelot is also more probable to be her game over.

She should be jumping in to save Ritsuka, not sitting on her ass and sucking her thumb.

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And when that makes things worse and Ritsuka ends up dead what will she say to Rika?

And I call bullshit about unity.

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So yes, all Servants have a boot on their necks, with nowhere to go, nothing to do, and nowhere to hide, and Ritsuka is merely the velvet glove.

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Cynical much?

but that literally changes nothing about her awareness that she has a proven solution to an apocalypse

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You are assuming that she would use it, and that it would even work in a completely different type of apocalypse.

It's said pretty damn explicitly by multiple characters that Ritsuka is a distorted individual in canon. Yes, they're not Emiya Shirou-level twisted, but they don't have a normal mentality.

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I don't see anything distorted about that, and Shirou isn't twisted, he just has PTSD, something that Ritsuka will have later on.

naturally born genius of tactics and strategy in the person of Taylor

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Natural born genius? Yeah, no.

 

[readerdreamer]

It's said pretty damn explicitly by multiple characters that Ritsuka is a distorted individual in canon. Yes, they're not Emiya Shirou-level twisted, but they don't have a normal mentality.

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Not so much as "distorted" - how I hate how Fate fanon has abused that word so much, especially involving EMIYA - as he is at first, absurdly friendly in a "your friendly neighborhood guy" kind of way. Several Servants have My Room lines on how the protag is so normal that it is almost abnormal at times, and how it helps them bond with their Servants to an overwhelming degree.

Then comes Part 1.5 onward. From there, the aftermath of Part 1 has repeatedly been stated to have lasting effects on the protag. Kiara comments on it, EMIYA Alter comments on it, Summer BB comments on it, heck even Raum comments on it. Part 2 makes this even worse, where it literally starts with the protag having to confront destroying the Lostbelts on LB1, and the canonical Mnemosyne event where Da Vinci's forgotten mental health AI straight up considers them "so broken you can't even feel the cracks anymore".

Trauma and Guilt are both repeating themes of the Lostbelts, and every LB is paved with deaths and sacrifices, both perpetuated by and made for the sake of the protagonist to push onward. Good grief, any single LB would be enough to drive a man insane by guilt, much less all of them in such a short timespan. At least Kiritsugu never had to destroy entire civilizations, and EMIYA could at least claim that Alaya forced him to do things. Ritsuka has neither grace. Considering all that, is it really a surprise that Ritsuka is a not exactly "normal" anymore?

 

[Morket]

Natural born genius? Yeah, no.

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Um... On her first night, she used effective tactics, which allowed her to inflict high damage on Lung, although she would have lost if not for the intervention of Bitch, but for the first attempt — superb.
A bank where her effective use of insects guaranteed Undersiders victory against Wards (she single-handedly guaranteed victory against Clockblocker and was an indispensable opponent against Vista).
Collision with Bakuda — saved the Undersiders from certain death, just by taking a grenade to the face.
Second battle with Lung — defeated him solo, through the creative use of Insects and the surrounding area, aka Newter.
Again, it was a major help in saving the Undersiders from the Empire of 88.
During the battle with Leviathan, having no way to resist him, she nevertheless survived sabotage from Armsmaster and even gave Leviathan a new ass, scaring him away from the shelter.

About the Nine arc... There she became simply a goddess, who, almost single-handedly, caused the fall of a group of psychopaths with more than 20 years of history, with personal notes: 1) Capturing Cherish and further depriving Siberia of its main advantage 2) Defeating the Mannequin , both physically and in the public field 3) Organizing the rescue of all parahumans from the pathogen Riley, being herself under the influence of the pathogen.

Then, of course, she defeated an entire group of Dragon suits assigned to fight the Nine. She also survived Coil's ambush and even took revenge on him by killing one of the most dangerous Thinkers in Brockton Bay.
Echidna... There Taylor's actions were also invaluable, from generally warning everyone about her threat and eliminating the clones to literally organizing the most dangerous attacks on her.
The battle with Tagg and the pact/dominance of new villains in Brokton is known to have ended. Taylor became Warlord of American City at age 16.

Just a few months later - she would become the person with the greatest influence on the battle against Behemoth, both protecting all of India from the Phir Sē bomb and causing the most damage to Endbringer in history by creating the plan to cut off Behemoth's leg.

And in the end, of course, Taylor's greatest achievement is the murder of the creature closest to God (and according to the crossover, actually god), with the loss of somewhere around 500 fighters to her action(and a third to they own stupidity), against the owner of the "I win" button, the destruction of many future threats (according to Ward, many A and S threat class were destroyed by Taylor) and all of this when she was going crazy from merging with Foreigner shard and losing all her basic human knowledge, from speech to understanding of any human forms of information transfer.

And all this — literally from the age of 15-16 until a week after 18 years.

Many of the actions she performed were classified as difficult, even for seasoned tacticians and strategists, right in the heat of battle, and some of them were impossible in principle. But she did it all.

No one, before the Wards, taught her how to manage resources and people during a battle to obtain maximum results and achieve goals. She, simply by being herself, defeated even professional military personnel with experience and training in the form of the PRT, the Protectorate and the Coil Mercenaries, with the support of the Thinkers.

And who is she after this, if not a naturally born genius in tactics and somewhat in strategy?

This is the same naturalness as her Cult Leader Charisma. She knows what to tell people when the situation is serious and the more serious the situation, the more hopeless it is, the more people begin to follow her.

 

[CCMax]

t's really, really slow, so it might have wound up too subtle, but if you read through the whole thing in one go, you might notice that learning to connect with the twins is part of what's helping Taylor grow out of that mindset. She's still got a ways to go yet, and as the breaks between Singularities grow larger and longer, she should start making bigger strides, but she's getting there.

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I can't really answer that without spoiling things. Like, spoiling things for stuff I haven't even written yet.

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You know what, that brings up a very interesting point. In the traditional works of fiction that I'm familiar with (books), the entire story (book) is given to you as one complete whole. You then read through the entire thing from start to finish. Whatever pacing within the story has been set to work for the entire book.

However, in serial works, you are releasing these chapters every week (or whatever timeframe for other works). And this absolutely conflicts against the pacing that is normally defined by a book. Do you ignore the week per week pacing to maintain the pacing of the story? Or do you adjust the story to ensure that the pacing for the readers is maintained?

The reason I bring this up is because, this is the second time where you brought up how this is important for something that is going to happen in the future. And not the immediate future, but a part of the story that hasn't been written yet. Aife's dream sequence, that happened in January, and this current arc in November. That is almost an entire year has passed between these two plot points.

Just how important are these story points? Because, the way I see it, by the time you get to writing that future story over a year would pass (at least) and all of the current readers aren't even going to remember about either of those story arcs. And a brand new reader, going through the story in one lump sum, will they remember? We've got Okeanos to completely distract the reader of Aife's dream sequence and then London to distract the reader on both Aife's dream sequence and Ritsuka's curse.

To me personally, I can't tell if you are over-inflating the importance of whatever plot point Aife's/Ritsuka's dream/curse sequence is supposed to do. Or if you are stuck on scope creep, where you keep adding more and more plot because you think it is important to the story you are trying to tell.

I completely understand that you can't keep things at high intensity and that you do need to slow things down, to bring calm before the next high intensity sequence. But when you, the author, is saying that most of the readers are going to hate this entire story arc? That is a problem, a problem that you seem to be actively ignoring. You know it is a problem, you've actively suggested people just skip the next few weeks and just come back to read it all in one lump sum. And yet, instead of fixing the problem, you are sticking to your guns. Sure, as the creator, sticking to your guns is important but if a lot of people (including yourself) says it is a problem? Maybe you should be fixing it instead.

I've personally enjoyed the character interactions. I see some development wise in Taylor but you don't do subtle well. Meaning it is so subtle that it doesn't exist to the reader, or you hammering it over the reader's head with a hammer. So, you made some mentions and implied some development for Taylor but if this development is important, maybe you should emphasize it more.

So, at this point, I don't know whether to suggest you cut out these story points because they aren't important at all. Or rewrite them so that they complete quicker. But, seriously, when I read a book where I think it is going over really boring/uninteresting stuff? I start to skim past them because they aren't important.

And both Aife's dream and Ritsuka's curse story arcs? They are both so unimportant that they are skim worthy. And it isn't because they may or may not contain important plot points. It is because the way the story is being told to the reader fails to grab's the reader's attention. There is practically nothing there to make me go, I should pay attention! Nothing to say, pay attention because this is important! Or nothing to say, pay attention because it is funny or exciting!

And yes, when I reread the story a few weeks ago (I mostly forgot the early parts of the story) I actually did just skip past Aife's dream. Because in my experience, it was just character development for Aife and I just didn't care for her because she wasn't important to the story. She was the heavy stick to fight against the other servants, and that is all she is.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe my memory is bad and I'm mixing things up. But right now, I can see Ritsuka's arc as being the same. Nothing important happens and I can just skip right past it because it doesn't affect the story in any way. And that is because all we have to do is just wait for Ritsuka to fix the problem off-screen. Where exactly is the hook, the grab, that is supposed to make the reader pay attention?

Edit - forgot to add this part. But, maybe we're wrong and it is incredibly vital for these plot points to exist. That James is incredibly right to keep both of these plot points. However, that doesn't fix the problem that the author failed to provide these plot points to the reader in a way to keep their attention.

 

[Cookiesndip]

This is the same naturalness as her Cult Leader Charisma. She knows what to tell people when the situation is serious and the more serious the situation, the more hopeless it is, the more people begin to follow her

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Agreed with everything you pointed out.

Also, why is cultist Taylor not a thing? I remember like one story with that, and it was a SI Endbringer if memory serves, she wasn't even the focus. I guess there's that ancient dead 40k fic, but nothing else.

 

[Barghest Blue]

Taylor knew convincing Marie to let her in wasn't gonna pan out, but the moment she heard Emiya's possible solution she was going for it, she only stopped herself because she knew Emiya wouldn't risk it, not because she wasn't willing to risk Ritsuka's soul being ripped out and undergoing degradation

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What story were you reading, because it wasn't this one.

Not only did Taylor immediately decide that it wasn't worth the risk if it left Ritsuka's soul stranded, considering that the entire point of her going to Emiya was to find a way to get Ritsuka back, at no point would she have been fine with leaving Ritsuka's soul stranded.

He is an ally and someone who relies on her, she would rather her soul be the one that's stranded than his.

The only time she could have possibly been fine with doing so was Gold Morning, and then only, ONLY, if it had provided some tangible method of defeating Scion.

Kehpri was never so wasteful nor careless, Weaver would have always sacrificed herself first, and Skitter would have never given up on him. Taylor's problem is that she cares too much, and simultaneously just doesn't give a damn about anything standing in her way.

So you're saying that as the story goes on she's changing as a person?

I think that's half the point of the fic. Taylor experiencing character development and changing as a person. It's both something a perfectly valid approach to and exceptionally well suited to post-gm fics.

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I'm not complaining about the fact that she's changing, I'm complaining that she's regressing

She is becoming a worse person and a worse character with every change forced upon her.

As Taylor is now, she could never have saved the world during Gold Morning, and she can't save the world now now if she's now the type of person who is willing to let Ritsuka die because someone told her too.

Marie said it herself, the greatest risk is to Taylor herself, and when was the last time that stopped her? s

Taylor should be the type of person willing to shoulder the consequences so that Ritsuka won't have to, instead she is sacrificing him to go through this alone so that she doesn't suffer.

15-year old Taylor would be disgusted with her right now

And when that makes things worse and Ritsuka ends up dead what will she say to Rika?

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The greatest risk would be to Taylor, if Ritsuka somehow doesn't make it out, what makes you think Taylor would? What makes you think she would leave him behind, or allow him to die if there is literally anything she could do about it?

If she goes in, there's a high chance that Ritsuka would get out fine but Taylor dies or is bedridden or something.

Natural born genius? Yeah, no.

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She ran rings around and made fools of people who had been involved with Cape stuff fro longer than she's been alive, who have had training or experience she didn't have, who had resources she couldn't even think of.

 

[famfrit]

snip

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I'm afraid I'm going to have to inform you you've been reading too many fanfics that wank Taylor and are ignoring her failures, mistakes and downsides. In canon Taylor is not that impressive until way later because well lets start with background. People like to say that Taylor only has bug control and act like it's a weak power but it's really not because it has a decent radius of control (the size of blocks in that part of America is a lot smaller than elsewhere so logically her range should be a lot smaller but I doubt Wildbow actually looked that up) comes with like a dozen add ons such as the multitasking, sense tappings, pushing them past their limits and knowing of their locations which functionally gives her localised clairvoyance which combined with how much she can do at any time is the key to a lot of her big moments.

In such an unbalanced setting like worm where the majority of capes are base human that's a huge deal as shown when Glen makes her look at all the lingering injuries the Bay's prt had. Brockton Bay also has a perfect climate for insects to survive especially over winter and also has insects like brown recluses and black widows.

Covering it as you did entirely off the top of my head it needs to be said she didn't have tactics at all at first until the second Lung fight because before then she stuck with cover them in bugs that work their way into places they really shouldn't be and mass bite and sting.

During the Bakuda fight she also got massively caught out because until then she'd been heavily reliant on having a huge swarm brought to the fight but in that case she didn't have any on hand and there weren't many around.

During the second battle with Lung she got the final blow but it was nowhere near solo heck you even credit using Newter's fluids for it in her first example of the kind of thinking people claim she used all along which shows he was there as were a lot of other participants who amongst other things helped distract Lung and keep him off her which includes giving her time to set that up.

Next is actually the fundraiser where she did actually continue such thinking including stalling and atking their pr when they were on the back foot including Regent having been beaten and Miss Militia having her power in the form of a machete to his throat. However, even here her showing was very mixed with Armsy and Velocity both giving her a very hard time plus they actually needed bailing out by the travelers and all the independants when Dauntless and Armsy chased them during the escape and cornered them.

I can't remember much about the fights when the empire got unmasked beyond Lisa being the mvp there so I can't really say anything on it.

For the levi battle you are also overselling things Arsmy used the EMP on her band to stop her communicating their location but that was all so didn't effect her personal abilities. She also took his nanothorn halbeard after he lost since she saw how effective it was which he what she used to give him the minor wound from it but in exchange got wrecked including having her spine broken which you omit.

During the nine arc you ignore that during their planning the nine walk in and the undersiders couldn't really do anything to them with Lisa even getting a scar for getting lippy with Jack, the plan that captured Cherish got Brian captured and was Noelle's plan and Mannequin fight wasn't just her she was losing and had to be bailed out by civillains who were actually the ones to take his head. Hookwolf was also able to outplay them and get them excluded from the united effort. Her performance during the Agnosia plague also was mixed since she also got duped by Jack and Bonesaw, leading them to Amy and giving them info along with letting Battery die.

Somewhere around here are also events you skip where she atks the mayor's house and Triumph and Prism were there in civvies and still nearly beat them with Taylor also messing up and nearly killing Triumph because she wasn't paying attention to the bugs she was chocking him with. There's also their atk on the prt base where Taylor nearly got herself killed because she stole and misused a tinker tech gun which meant it blew up as is normal which to be fair is only because Rachel punted her into containment foam intending for her to be captured but literally the only reason she survived was Dragon's chains made her lie on it sacrificing her suit. They also went to try and save someone from the merchants and got extremely lucky Faultline atked and got them out of a corner tho it meant they had to give up the few page of vial info they got when Newter cornered them.

The dragon suits are also overblown they got away from them solely because the suits didn't chase them when they ran intending to just keep them out of their claimed territory plus in Taylor's specific case she got lucky that Brian happened to be visiting her when it arrived. Even after that when they counter atked they didn't defeated the group and merely went after and destroyed one or two which gave Dragon enough of an excuse to pull out of the operation she didn't want to be a part of to begin with.

She narrowly survived Coil's ambush but it was Lisa and her flipped mercenaries who actually took Coil down where she also showed she'd been doing things like arranging for Noelle to be disturbed at night to cut down on the amount of sleep he'd gotten. Echidna is broadly fair enough since she pulled out several key big saves even if she wasn't alone in the warning about her Lisa was struggling with her issues and so acting stupidly but I would also point out how during it Clockblocker wrecked her in a morality debate and tore apart her I'm doing good stance though as par for the course for Taylor at the time she promptly forgot about it after.

For the managing of the warlord it really needs to be said a huge part of it was how literally since wildbow did it with dice rolls lucky they got during Levi where none of the undersiders, travelers or Coil's group died but every other faction took major losses plus Coil having all the independents on his payroll and then paying them to leave. Though in several events you omit like dealing with Accord and the Teeth plus the ambush at Arcadia she did show how much she'd grown.

For the Behemoth fight you are being a bit unfair Phir Se's atk took out 90 % of Behemoth's body so that outclasses chopping off what remained of a leg. We also don't really know much about past fights in general but we know Tohu/Bohu got wrecked hard once plus Ziz has lost wings before. It also bears saying but Chev probably outclasses this too since he got a trump boost to withstand the kill aura and then went and cut his way right to to and hit Behemoth's core. While a bit unfair there's also how Scion finished off Behemoth along with killing buffed Levi during gm and Sleeper got Ziz in Ward who was also cut in half by Dragon.

I'm going to skip gm because I've spoken about it extensively before including her but I will again say her choice to get her power jailbroken was with what she knew at the time tactically a bad one because she knew it would kill her and probably not do anything when she had other ways to contribute, by the end QA was in control not Taylor and it relied on a ton of other people from doormaker's power running out alone over a dozen people outside of her control had to come in with clutch saves to keep it all falling apart. Scion's I win button also doesn't really count because he only had it set to be used to avoid sting hitting his avatar and never used it on her being he was messing around the whole time. Heck at one point he gets right in her face then pulls back.

I'm also not sure where you are getting this about the A and S class threats beyond a few like Nilbog being defanged (tho that wasn't by Taylor) but there were a ton left including a ton the Wardens apparently dealt with but thing like Goddess being on Gimmel because of her, Teacher who she let go, the machine army broke out and a ton of tinker tech apparently caused huge messes from being left unattended.

Additionally, if you want to talk about her leadership prowess the downsides need to be brought up. Taylor herself is a control freak and a crusader who has major self worth issues from the bullying. Due to this she desires to be worth something which is problematic because her definition of it is for her personally, directly achieving and accomplishing things with a tendency to pick a big goal (prove worth as a hero, find out the undersiders boss, free dinah, stop the nine from ending the world) and can even be listless without one.

For the people under her that can be a huge problem because for the Chicago wards who she was in charge of she was extremely distant and a harsh taskmaster to them. The main problem there was she had lost her civ id and had her big crusade against the nine she was always working on and pushing herself to be ready for which she forced on them. That caused huge issues because they had personal lives and weren't as driven for example it's known one of them resented Taylor because she drove them hard enough she couldn't maintain a romantic relationship outside of the wards due to lack of time and energy. It also dragged them and the Bay wards because Taylor knew them best into fighting the nine's clone army which they couldn't really refuse because of the whole Jack is going to set off the end of the world and they were all the backup she had.

Even before that though Lisa and Brian also had complaints about her. For Brian it was her being a control freak meant she kept usurping command from him and pushing the group to do what she wanted which he couldn't complain about because of how suited for field command her power had shown itself to be. However, that was a problem in itself because of her power letting her excel in the chaos simply by being able to monitor and process it before setting up a board flip with multiple hidden moves she aimed to be in those situations which was extremely stressful and tiring for him.

Lisa too had the issues as recently said in how she doesn't ask for help unless she had a gun to their heads or they couldn't refuse without seeming unreasonable. This extended into doing things like surrendering to Tagg and using them as part of her plan but without actually telling them beforehand and forcing them to work out what she wanted and act as she expected or screw her over.

 

[Formerly]

I kinda wanna see an omake of what-if where the twins died and Taylor had to do the Grand Order herself and subsequently fails to grow enough to be the kind of person that can defeat Goetia,

My money's on a party wipe by London like every Crypter except for Daybit and Wodime, or her chaffing under Gilgamesh too much that they die to Tiamat

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Taylor determinators to the end and goes Khepri 2 Titan Boogaloo. The Shards recognize that the Host species are all dead, and it's time to pack up and leave. Goetia vs Ward's Second End of the World. No matter who wins humanity loses.

 

[The-Chained-One]

For the managing of the warlord it really needs to be said a huge part of it was how literally since wildbow did it with dice rolls lucky they got during Levi where none of the undersiders, travelers or Coil's group died but every other faction took major losses plus Coil having all the independents on his payroll and then paying them to leave.

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this is actually partially fanon, he didn't roll and then decide that's that, he rolled for inspiration, to see if he could work with that outcome, basically fishing for potential ways the leviathan battle could end up and seeing if that worked with the plot he was looking for. to my knowledge, coils group didn't really participate in the battle either, so of course he didn't really lose any people in that fight, the undersiders and travelers making it was pretty lucky tho, but for the other factions, armsmasters actions killing several important people was a pretty major contributer there, and to my knowledge, the independents who left after leviathan did so entirely unrelated to coil, if he had them on his paycheck he'd have kept them i think, given how he used the independents we see, like circus, trainwreck, barker and biter etc.

 

[Raiseth]

I don't have the energy for a long take, but if everyone's sharing an opinion, I've got mine, too.

I've read stories where the chapters drag on and on and on, agonizingly long, where nothing important happens, where cutting it out of the story would change nothing whatsoever.

So I gotta say, I don't feel the same way about the most recent arc. The crux of the matter for me is that I'm not strictly looking at what is happening in the chapter— nothing much, duh. For me, the most important parts are three people most affected by this crisis and how they deal with it: Rika shuts down, Taylor immediately wants to try a personally risky potential solution, and Olga is one bad day away from collapsing in a foetal blob of abject misery, but she still manages to convince Taylor to wait. There, those are the parts I'm delighted to have read, and they wouldn't be possible without the framework of the protracted crisis.

As for Taylor and how she, perhaps unrealistically, becomes different in works of fiction post GM… honestly, as long as the chain of cause and effect is established and remotely believable, it can only be a good thing for me. This is very much a matter of personal taste: I don't like who Taylor is at the end of Worm, not as a character and not as a person, but the most realistic way she would behave given a second chance is… more of the same, sadly.

This isn't even me having an ax to grind against her, people have trouble changing even after shattering revelations and world-changing events. To be more trite, domination is a drug and Taylor is an addict. Stories where Taylor backslides into her old behavior and mindset are usually well written and thought out, deal with a lot of mature themes and raise important questions and are absolute horror for me to read.

So yeah, tldr; this was a lot of words to say I'm enjoying the current arc and Taylor slowly learning about magic of friendship and jolly cooperation in general.