Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

[readerdreamer]

In summation the two counterarguments that have stood since this subject first came up in the thread-
1: "No, you don't need to know. It's private, and does not effect you. You already know all that is relevant to you, and that is that I can do it."
2: "This secrecy is as much for your safety as mine, and Chaldea's in general. This is operational security 101; what you do not know you won't have to lie about or risk leaking. If not to the enemy then certainly the authorities after this whole mess is over. There is a reason the Director classified it. Ignorance sometimes is a viable defense. You have plausible deniability."
-Still stand.

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Didn't Arash give counterarguments in the story itself on those very arguments?

First was that just because it doesn't affect them now doesn't mean that it won't affect them later. Given what Taylor knows of the origin of her powers, at the very least she should be warning Roman and Da Vinci of the extraterrestrial threat that her powers originated from, because ignorance to a problem isn't always a viable defense and may in fact become a detriment. The twins saying they don't know anything about Taylor's powers won't always protect them, and god knows what might happen if someone from Worm gets summoned.

Second is that so long as Taylor puts a barrier between herself and her allies, understanding will become difficult and to truly understand the person that is Taylor Hebert, you have to know what turned her that way - even if it's just a quick and dry summary. Right now in comparison, Taylor is so mysterious and separated from her teammates that they don't even have an idea that she might not react well to some things that will remind her of what she's been through, like mental attacks that are rather rife in FGO. The excuse of professionalism only lasts so far, especially when they're the only humans left alive outside of the Singularities.

I'm not saying that she has to basically revisit the entirety of Worm. But she should at least warn them of any threats that her very existence could mean and/or could compromise her.

 

[Moliblazer]

Grand Foreigner isn't a thing. Grands only exist for the main og Servant Classes. Saber, Archer, Lancer, Rider, Assassin, Berserker, Caster.

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You realize that by saying something in the Nasu multiverse isn't a thing, you just confirmed it is in fact a thing. It's the first rule of Nasuverse. Everything is an exception!

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Funnily enough, there is a canon Grand Foreigner now: ORT Xibalba.

...on an unrelated note, I now realize that Khepri, as a Servant, would probably qualify as a (kinda-sorta) legitimate candidate for Grand Foreigner. Given that she was a legendary hero who saved humanity/Earth using power that came from a non-human/non-Earth source, was incredibly powerful, and was nevertheless full of mystery...

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Well, Khepri does seem to be Grand material thanks to the whole 'saving humanity' bit, but the one Grand Servant we know about is an Ultimate One from another planet, which is kinda very much above Khepri in every way, so not sure she actually makes the cut.

First was that just because it doesn't affect them now doesn't mean that it won't affect them later. Given what Taylor knows of the origin of her powers, at the very least she should be warning Roman and Da Vinci of the extraterrestrial threat that her powers originated from, because ignorance to a problem isn't always a viable defense and may in fact become a detriment. The twins saying they don't know anything about Taylor's powers won't always protect them, and god knows what might happen if someone from Worm gets summoned.

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As far as Taylor knows, the extraterrestrial threat is handled.

Second is that so long as Taylor puts a barrier between herself and her allies, understanding will become difficult and to truly understand the person that is Taylor Hebert, you have to know what turned her that way - even if it's just a quick and dry summary. Right now in comparison, Taylor is so mysterious and separated from her teammates that they don't even have an idea that she might not react well to some things that will remind her of what she's been through, like mental attacks that are rather rife in FGO. The excuse of professionalism only lasts so far, especially when they're the only humans left alive outside of the Singularities.

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Characters are allowed to not act optimally.

Taylor's distance from everyone/difficulty opening up is a clearly established character flaw, one that's exacerbated by the practical reasons to not tell anyone the truth.

Even if it's technically not the best course of action, it's completelly logical for Taylor to act like this.

 

[Formerly]

Didn't Arash give counterarguments in the story itself on those very arguments?

First was that just because it doesn't affect them now doesn't mean that it won't affect them later. Given what Taylor knows of the origin of her powers, at the very least she should be warning Roman and Da Vinci of the extraterrestrial threat that her powers originated from, because ignorance to a problem isn't always a viable defense and may in fact become a detriment. The twins saying they don't know anything about Taylor's powers won't always protect them, and god knows what might happen if someone from Worm gets summoned.

Second is that so long as Taylor puts a barrier between herself and her allies, understanding will become difficult and to truly understand the person that is Taylor Hebert, you have to know what turned her that way - even if it's just a quick and dry summary. Right now in comparison, Taylor is so mysterious and separated from her teammates that they don't even have an idea that she might not react well to some things that will remind her of what she's been through, like mental attacks that are rather rife in FGO. The excuse of professionalism only lasts so far, especially when they're the only humans left alive outside of the Singularities.

I'm not saying that she has to basically revisit the entirety of Worm. But she should at least warn them of any threats that her very existence could mean and/or could compromise her.

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The former hardly works. It might become relevant is not the same as it will become relevant or even has a high probability of becoming relevant. I mean I could ask Congress to read me in on national security secrets because it might become relevant to me one day and it'd be better for me to know before then, but they, rightfully so, wouldn't do it.
As it stands it is not relevant and is foreseeably staying that way. If Shardnanigans starts happening, a Worm-verse Sub-Singularity pops up, an impromptu dream sequence in Taylor's dreams, or somebody from Worm/Ward shows up in a Singularity or at Chaldea it'd probably necessitate some explanation, but hardly "I have a Shard of a now dead alien god-thing direct wired to my brain" levels of it in most cases except probably Shardnanigans. "Alternate world. We have superheroes and villains. I was one. Parahumans and superpowers are weird." will suffice.
As for the latter; that just reeks of entitlement. Professionalism might only go so far, but it does go at least this far. It is something that they don't need to know on information and operational security grounds, it is information that they are not entitled to, and it is information that Taylor personally does not wish to disclose. That is not grounds for serious distrust that would negatively impact Chaldea's mission or interpersonnel relations. That's "don't ask the Ol' Bobby about Vietnam. He doesn't want to talk about it, and neither does the government."

 

[readerdreamer]

As far as Taylor knows, the extraterrestrial threat is handled.

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Except she knows that it isn't. Zion is dead, and so is the Thinker. But they were only individual members an extraterrestrial race of existential threats to humanity. Plus, if her Shard could find its way to her, then it's still possible that more Shardnanigans can happen in her perspective of what happened to the rest of the shards - she doesn't have to experience Ward to know that.

Characters are allowed to not act optimally.

Taylor's distance from everyone/difficulty opening up is a clearly established character flaw, one that's exacerbated by the practical reasons to not tell anyone the truth.

Even if it's technically not the best course of action, it's completelly logical for Taylor to act like this.

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Except I'm merely pointing out why she should tell them. I'm not saying that it has to happen now, or even anytime soon. I'm just saying that there are very logical reasons to why Taylor should tell more of her story eventually, and given this is a Worm crossover, it will crop up at some point. It's just that from how you guys were talking, it was like it was a done deal and none of the circumstances would change - you guys may hate the idea that Taylor would tell more of her story, but in my perspective, if this fic would ever try to incorporate more of Worm then this is the bare minimum. As it is, Taylor hasn't actually changed anything much of FGO's plot aside from Marie's revival.

 

[Moliblazer]

Except she knows that it isn't. Zion is dead, and so is the Thinker. But they were only individual members an extraterrestrial race of existential threats to humanity. Plus, if her Shard could find its way to her, then it's still possible that more Shardnanigans can happen in her perspective of what happened to the rest of the shards - she doesn't have to experience Ward to know that.

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Except, this is the Nasuverse. Extraterrestrial races of existential threats to humanity are dime a dozen.

I'm not sure Taylor even knows Zion and Eden were part of a larger species, much less that they're implied to be pretty populous as per WoG. But even if she did, this is a world where ORT exists, Velber, Type-Moon, Machine Gods, Ultimate Ones, True Demons, etc, all exist. Entities aren't special, nor are they pressing threats rn by any metric. Plus, I'm pretty sure she told OMA about them already, so Chaldeas technically already knows.

As for Shard shenanigans. Shards tend to stick to Earth Bet, with more distant Earths having as few as one or two Parahumans total. As Khepri, Taylor should have learned that better than anyone. If QA buds or something, then she'd have to open up, but right now, at least, the possibility of Shard shenanigans aren't really a threat.

And again even if most characters don't know, Chaldeas as an organization already does.

(Remember that Taylor is, in fact, following Olga's orders in not telling anyone the details of her past and abilities)

The former hardly works. It might become relevant is not the same as it will become relevant or even has a high probability of becoming relevant. I mean I could ask Congress to read me in on national security secrets because it might become relevant to me one day and it'd be better for me to know before then, but they, rightfully so, wouldn't do it.
As it stands it is not relevant and is foreseeably staying that way. If Shardnanigans starts happening, a Worm-verse Sub-Singularity pops up, an impromptu dream sequence in Taylor's dreams, or somebody from Worm/Ward shows up in a Singularity or at Chaldea it'd probably necessitate some explanation, but hardly "I have a Shard of a now dead alien god-thing direct wired to my brain" levels of it in most cases except probably Shardnanigans. "Alternate world. We have superheroes and villains. I was one. Parahumans and superpowers are weird." will suffice.
As for the latter; that just reeks of entitlement. Professionalism might only go so far, but it does go at least this far. It is something that they don't need to know on information and operational security grounds, it is information that they are not entitled to, and it is information that Taylor personally does not wish to disclose. That is not grounds for serious distrust that would negatively impact Chaldea's mission or interpersonnel relations. That's "don't ask the Ol' Bobby about Vietnam. He doesn't want to talk about it, and neither does the government."

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This ^

Taylor's past is classified on a 'need-to-know' basis.

And so far, from Taylor's pov, there's no need to know.

Except I'm merely pointing out why she should tell them. I'm not saying that it has to happen now, or even anytime soon. I'm just saying that there are very logical reasons to why Taylor should tell more of her story eventually, and given this is a Worm crossover, it will crop up at some point. It's just that from how you guys were talking, it was like it was a done deal and none of the circumstances would change - you guys may hate the idea that Taylor would tell more of her story, but in my perspective, if this fic would ever try to incorporate more of Worm then this is the bare minimum. As it is, Taylor hasn't actually changed anything much of FGO's plot aside from Marie's revival.

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Meh, I agree that it'd probably for the best for her to tell them, but I also enjoy people's reactions to her mysterious act too much for me to want for it to happen soon. Personally I'm hoping things come out in America when she meets someone from her past, but that's just me.

As for her not changing too much of FGO's plot... Honestly, FGO's plot is pretty much impossible to meaningfully change. I mean, it's pretty much built to be as modular as possible, and the only way to change it on a real scale is to change Solomon's actions somehow. Which is literally impossible for pretty much any character that's a part of the plot. Especially since they're not even close to meeting him yet.

Honestly, part I of FGO is not the sort of setting you enjoy for the big plot developments, but for the minute-to-minute way things happen, the character interactions, etc... which Taylor's current attitude is pretty good for imo.

 

[Young Pyromancer]

I think people are misunderstanding the argument of why Taylor should reveal her situation soon.

The original argument wasn't that she should reveal it so that it can be resolved. Rather, she should reveal it because if someone hasn't read worm, the story makes it pretty difficult to understand her character and motivations, which is NOT a trait you want in your protagonist.

 

[zadcap]

if someone hasn't read worm,

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That's a weird stance to take on a crossover fanfic where the main PoV character and most of the draw of this particular fic happens to be the Worm character.

 

[famfrit]

I think people are misunderstanding the argument of why Taylor should reveal her situation soon.

The original argument wasn't that she should reveal it so that it can be resolved. Rather, she should reveal it because if someone hasn't read worm, the story makes it pretty difficult to understand her character and motivations, which is NOT a trait you want in your protagonist.

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That was understood however as I pointed out it isn't true that Taylor revealing it to everyone is necessary for the fic and would arguably harm it's quality because it would be out of character and not something Taylor would actually do as is. This is why I provided several other possibilities the information could be covered in a way that wouldn't go against things that have already been established such as it being discussed with Olga between singularities or a Shakespeare interlude given his territory creation gives him info on the participants and the author confirmed he has basically read worm or a dream cycle as has already happened with Aife.

 

[Windborne]

That's a weird stance to take on a crossover fanfic where the main PoV character and most of the draw of this particular fic happens to be the Worm character.

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Assumptions and how that makes an ass out of all involved aside, you'd be surprised at how many might not be familiar with her, but are purely Fate fans who don't really understand Taylor's story beyond what they learned here. So yes that was one of the reasons that no one really addressed when they took umbrage with my suggestions, which I specifically stated both of my recent posts in this thread were, and it's not like I didn't give a basic framework for a workable solution for James to use in the form of interludes from other perspectives.

But yeah the unexplained nature of Taylor's backstory is very much a weakness, narratively speaking. The Fate side gets more leeway because it started at the beginning of the story of Grand Order, but Taylor and Worm are in the exact opposite position given how this occurs Post-GM, and that prior story wasn't expanded on much in story, yet.

It isn't true that Taylor revealing it to everyone is necessary for the fic and would arguably harm it's quality because it would be out of character and not something Taylor would actually do as is.

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My other more pertinent reason was the fact that EMIYA is probably internally freaking out and not in the mood for any more deflections or half truths regardless of Taylor's personality and trust issues; given how potentially dangerous Taylor is now given she just proved herself to be capable of controlling Phantasmal Beasts (which is something no modern Magecraft practitioner can accomplish so thoroughly like Taylor has given the inherent nature of such creatures if I remember correctly) with an unexplained power, the current situation where the rest of the team being unaware of the mechanics of her control and her history just became unacceptable. For someone like EMIYA, given his extremely cynical nature, him not learning how this is all possible would be extremely out of character.

Taylor might have his personal respect, but he's still a Counter Guardian who was summoned by a different person without a catalyst. That doesn't happen without Alaya's approval. Even if he's in a Class Container at the moment, it's not unheard of for the Counter Force to summon Servants to resolve situations, since that happens in literally every Singularity and Lostbelt barring Fuyuki (and Chaldea arriving and being able to operate is likely still a Counter Force approved influence). Him being unaware of his purpose isn't a new thing for him it's probably happened thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of times in his past. Again that's not unprecedented, it occurs all the time for people acting on behalf of the Counter Force, knowingly or not.

This is exactly the sort of situation EMIYA finds himself called upon for all the time by Alaya. Sure Taylor might be very against opening up, but frankly that's not exactly pertinent now. Even if EMIYA is biding his time at the moment, and that would be completely in character, theres plenty of potential opportunities for this event to occur in the very near future and he would jump at any opportunity, again perfectly in character. Unfortunately given Taylor's nature it'd be an extremely ugly confrontation that won't stay private for long, if at all, most likely, but that's just an opportunity for a clever writer to induce character development.

So yeah Taylor might not be willing to talk about it, but EMIYA wouldn't care. This situation is already a clusterfuck of epic proportions, but Taylor's unwillingness to talk isn't something EMIYA would give a second thought of forcing if the situation demanded it, which it now is. Taylor was unaware she could control such creatures, EMIYA just saw that, and that new capability just became a major liability. No one other than Taylor (and even she doesn't know for sure) is certain of how long it'll last, nor are they certain how effective it is. Does it have more strict range limits? Could there be growing resistance in controlled Phantasmals to the control itself? Given the nature of Phantasmal Beasts those are all very likely possibilities. He's going to want details, no matter what.

Orders, Personality, Trust Issues, Rika's respect for Taylor, his respect for Taylor, none of that will make a difference to Counter Guardian EMIYA. He's still Emiya Shirou at his core, he's just as stubborn as Taylor and this situation just shifted dramatically in this latest chapter. The Status Quo isn't acceptable in terms of team dynamics anymore.

But again these are just my personal suggestion and thoughts, potential issues that I foresee being a problem. James can ignore it if he wants to.

 

[famfrit]

So yes that was one of the reasons that no one really addressed when they took umbrage with my suggestions, which I specifically stated both of my recent posts in this thread were, and it's not like I didn't give a basic framework for a workable solution for James to use in the form of interludes from other perspectives.

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So you know this and the Emiya thing were mentioned in my original post where it was specifically said it would be hypocritical for him which while not said there is how the secrets he is personally withholding which his interactions with Taylor have already indicated about them not really being able to press the other without having to open up themselves but also the post right above you.

That was understood however as I pointed out it isn't true that Taylor revealing it to everyone is necessary for the fic and would arguably harm it's quality because it would be out of character and not something Taylor would actually do as is. This is why I provided several other possibilities the information could be covered in a way that wouldn't go against things that have already been established such as it being discussed with Olga between singularities or a Shakespeare interlude given his territory creation gives him info on the participants and the author confirmed he has basically read worm or a dream cycle as has already happened with Aife.

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Your point about the worm lore for pure fate fans is acknowledged but your suggested and pushed for solution is what's debated because there are other ways for it to come up and which are better. If Emiya presses about it then if he actually got conceded to then he likely would only get passenger info not about Taylor personally because in that situation or if she somehow did turn around and suddenly feel like telling Rika she would get interrupted a ton and go on tangents. Heck even just her current actions with gunboat diplomacy could be used to introduce worm lore like thinking about how she's using tactics from her past or how Lisa accused her of being unable to ask for help unless she had a gun to the persons head or it was in a situation they'd look unreasonable to say no so she wasn't really asking.

As for specifying them as suggestions as I said originally you came off as pushy. To expand on that it's due to phrasing due to multiple statements like how the fic really needs to address it as soon as possible with words like really being both underlined and bolded along with the ping. Compare this to phrasing it like "I think the fic would be better if..." or "something that I think should be considered is.. " which aren't as forceful.

 

[Impstar]

So yeah Taylor might not be willing to talk about it, but EMIYA wouldn't care. This situation is already a clusterfuck of epic proportions, but Taylor's unwillingness to talk isn't something EMIYA would give a second thought of forcing if the situation demanded it, which it now is. Taylor was unaware she could control such creatures, EMIYA just saw that, and that new capability just became a major liability. No one other than Taylor (and even she doesn't know for sure) is certain of how long it'll last, nor are they certain how effective it is. Does it have more strict range limits? Could there be growing resistance in controlled Phantasmals to the control itself? Given the nature of Phantasmal Beasts those are all very likely possibilities. He's going to want details, no matter what.

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I mean it'd be likely to Taylor would clam up harder faced with an inquisition like this. Remember, Emiya is still a Servant. Short of killing Taylor, which is an absurdly ridiculous overreaction for something that might not actually be a problem at all and is just a sensitive subject, there is no way he can force her to do anything. By far the best way to get Taylor to say anything is to logically point out how it's important for everyone to be on the same page with the specifics of her powers and not just "they control insects and stuff, don't worry about it." And if she refuses or disagrees, what else is there to do? Rika can just command seal him to drop it if it gets to be too much.

 

[Hawkwing123456]

Does Taylor still have her Shard? I assumed since her very first summon failed, and because she didn't use a catalyst, it meant she had summoned the hero most like herself, i.e., Khepri or Skitter, and had become a Demi-Servant like Mash.

 

[ninjabunny66]

Does Taylor still have her Shard? I assumed since her very first summon failed, and because she didn't use a catalyst, it meant she had summoned the hero most like herself, i.e., Khepri or Skitter, and had become a Demi-Servant like Mash.

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We don't know.

Given the fact that summoning can cross time/space and Shardspace is a dimension where space is inconsistent, it is plausible that the failed summon acted as a sort of beacon for QA, who proceeded to reconnect to Taylor following the rayshift back to Chaldea. Similarly, it is plausible that Taylor has become a Pseudo/Demi/Random Nasuverse Bullshit-Servant by summoning her Heroic Spirit self into her body.

 

[JadeDemilich]

Personally i agree that Taylor does need to come clean to her team about who she is and where she comes from

BUT

she's getting there. she really is. it's slow, but Taylor is slow to trust people
this is a slow-burn story. we should know that by now. it might be frustrating but as people have pointed out it makes perfect sense considering the characters involved.
-Magi in general are well-known to horde secrets, and given that when secrets are uncovered they tend to be dissected (sometimes quite literally) there is great reason for them to become ever-more reclusive
-Marie is one such Magi, with the added problem that Taylor is her ace, the one thing she thinks she's done right. like hell does she want to lose Taylor, as an asset or as a friend. And while she will also eventually have to bow to the reality that people need to know...guys, she just woke up from being spiritually disembodied. give her a minute
-Taylor? Taylor is secretive and untrusting; even at the very end with teammates she trusted she held people at arm's length. but she too has acknowleged that Mash and the Twins and all the Servants need to know something, and has already confirmed that when the Director clears it she will explain things. but is it going to be an info dump? doubtful

and honestly? That would be far less interesting and lose us opportunities for fun anecdotes.

really my own main complaint on the Taylor end of things is that while James has allowed for Taylor to be badass without rolling over everybody...there has really been any gap filling. very little of her time training under Marie has been brought up, and no new info from her time in the Wards either, which is kind of a shame because that's where he really has room to play around.



like, right now, we have an opportunity for Taylor drinking and how she handles it to provide her team with more information about her as a person or her prior job history

example: for the first, i've always loved this one particular story (can't remember the name) where Taylor shares a bottle of whiskey with Madison, much to the other girl's surprise. Taylor scoffs and says something to the effect of, 'I'm a Dockworker's kid, of course i can drink'. which given her background, i can definitely see. And it wouldn't even be restricted info!


or for the second i came up with this awhile back and might fit this version better since she might actually abstain from drinking
"come on, not even a little bit"
"I don't drink, not after the fight in the distillery."
"...the what?"
"...guess it's not all that big a deal. had a fight with a...magus, let's say, got dragged into a whiskey distillery. bad move on our part, as it turns out, because once we were inside he flipped a switch and aerosolized the entire stock."
"i have not idea what that means"
"it means all the liquid alcohol turned to gas, senpai"
"that. drinking? that can be fun. But when it absorbs straight into your skin and your bloodstream becomes more booze than plasma? not so much."
"so what happened?"
"we caught the guy. roughly, since well, lowered inhibitions and all that."
"and?..."
"-I was drunk for two days, hungover for three, and honestly I don't remember most of it"
"you don't remember anything??"
"Apparently I wove several tapestries in that timeframe though I never saw them. Someone had them burned. Apparently they were an unsettling cross between surrealist and eldritch"

"…Senpai…"




Probably won't happen, but it was a fun thought

 

[CCMax]

And if she refuses or disagrees, what else is there to do?

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I'm just going to play devil's advocate really quickly, cause it is a bit of an escalation that I don't think is going to happen. But, Emiya can decide to act as a Counter Guardian and eliminate the possible threat to humanity? Cause, you know, Taylor might actually be a possible backup plan that nobody knows of, to keep the extinction of mankind on track just in case Chaldea manages to save it?

It isn't every day that a person can have absolute control over a phantasmic creature. Between that, and how it seems the 72 Demons succeeded to kill humanity, it would make sense for them to leave a just in case plan behind.

And with Taylor not saying anything, it doesn't take much for a paranoid counter guardian who is sent to kill everything and everyone in the area when deployed, to be proactive and kill off a potential threat. Of course, this is just me being a devil's advocate.

Honestly, having Taylor able to gain complete control over a phantasmal creature is a very clear issue. It needs to be resolved somehow because a normal person can't just simply gain absolute control over a phantasmal creature. Sure, Chaldea might be in a rather unique situation but this is a bit beyond. Some type of an explanation is needed, unless Taylor is hoping that the Twins will fail to note this in their after action report.

 

[Impstar]

I'm just going to play devil's advocate really quickly, cause it is a bit of an escalation that I don't think is going to happen. But, Emiya can decide to act as a Counter Guardian and eliminate the possible threat to humanity? Cause, you know, Taylor might actually be a possible backup plan that nobody knows of, to keep the extinction of mankind on track just in case Chaldea manages to save it?

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This is barely even worth considering. I almost don't even want to respond to this, devil's advocate position or no. Taylor is the leader of Chaldea's field team. Her death, as far as anyone is concerned, could seriously mean the failure of Chaldea and the destruction of humanity. Compared to that, a hypothetical threat that no one has confirmed? Yeah Taylor can control a weak Phantasmal. How does that possibly compare to Goethia's plan? In the absolute most extreme case, Emiya would wait until after Goethia's death to try and kill Taylor, and even that would be ridiculously extreme (especially since odds are they'll know more about her powers by then).

 

[Rem]

Taylor isn't even the most suspicious person on the A Team.

Granted, aside from her and Mash they're all comatose, but my point is that Chaldea being full of anomalies has the simple explanation that it recruited anomalies. Weird bug powers and a mysterious backstory fall into the category "huh, might keep an eye on that just in case but it's probably not relevant, I can see why the Director recruited her" not "crapcrapcrap nuke it from orbit."

Even Ritsuka eventually ends up being a suspicious weirdo, and they're a normal human.

 

[zadcap]

but Taylor and Worm are in the exact opposite position given how this occurs Post-GM,

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Given the opening description of this fic is, and I quote;
"Gold Morning was supposed to be the end. The capstone of a short, frenetic career. Taylor Hebert's fight was supposed to be over. But the end of one story is often the beginning of another, and when she's offered the chance to take part in a mission whose scale and scope feel so very familiar, there's only one answer she could give."
This was billed as a Taylor Hebert fic set in the Grand Order, not the other way around. The material that the character comes from is available, wikis are available, claiming that not knowing the main character's backstory is pulling the fic down, when the main character's backstory is the point of using them at all and doing nothing but complaining that the author hasn't given the in story summary yet so she's still a big mystery figure... Well-

Assumptions and how that makes an ass out of all involved aside,

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Yeah, all sides here are looking like asses, but I'm only doing it because I'm not having much luck coming up with a more polite way of saying it. It's starting to look like every chapter has a response of "Author, you need to do things this way or the whole story is going to be a failure," which I don't know how what to say, is a bit cringey?

So yeah Taylor might not be willing to talk about it, but EMIYA wouldn't care. This situation is already a clusterfuck of epic proportions, but Taylor's unwillingness to talk isn't something EMIYA would give a second thought of forcing if the situation demanded it, which it now is.

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On the other hand, she's got no reason to care about him trying to force the issue, and he doesn't have much of a way to do so anyway, even less a leg to stand on. He can demand all he wants, she's got no reason to answer a thing, and there's not much he can do to force the issue that would get any response but a fight, which doesn't actually help him at all in this situation.

But, Emiya can decide to act as a Counter Guardian and eliminate the possible threat to humanity?

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Emiya, as a counter guardian, who has had to deal with working with the lesser evil how many times, would decide that the best move is to kill the person leading the charge against the destruction of humanity because they might be a threat themselves? He would wait until the bigger issue has been handled, looks like it can be handled without her, or she actually does something to be a threat. "I can control most things insectile, apparently even including some phantasmal, and am currently unwilling to explain how to everyone who asks" is far from the strangest thing to be encountered in the Nasuverse and still pretty low on both the power and danger scale.

 

[Raiseth]

Ah yes, Emiya "Noble Phantasms out of my ass" Shirou, killing people for displaying unusual abilities that have no clear analog, that's just the way this guy rolls.

 

[CCMax]

This is barely even worth considering.

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Emiya, as a counter guardian, who has had to deal with working with the lesser evil how many times,

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Oh no, I agree, I doubt that this would happen. However, at no point did I say that he would immediately go to the kill option. What would most likely happen is that he'd be keeping an eye and the instant he thinks Taylor is a real threat (or if he's decided that the twins can work alone) will then try to take her out at that time.

Like I said, I was just playing devil's advocate. Honestly, Emiya should be thinking that Taylor is suspicious and should be keeping an eye on her. Any more than that, I doubt it because there should be some type of resolution to all this by the time anything like this becomes a concern.

 

[Windborne]

Not going to reply individually since you all still haven't paid attention to exactly what I wrote, which is that EMIYA's paranoia and lack of information on Taylor's past is the problem, so I feel no need to reciprocate by doing likewise when reading responses.

I never said EMIYA would kill her, particularly not immediately. But his experiences of seeing the literal worst of humanity for eons as a Counter Guardian would push him to demand answers to questions that Taylor has been deflecting or answering with half truths up to this point, precisely because this situation is so very serious. He's a master of telling half truths and misdirection exactly like Taylor's been doing up till now, so he knows bullshit when he sees it.

He's seen the potential danger she now represents and prior orders from Marie be damned now that it's plain to see that Taylor is getting into brand new territory with control of Phantasmals. Not knowing exactly what she can control and how is the issue. His job is to protect humanity, mission critical info like how exactly Taylor got her ability and the details of her experiences with it up till now are clearly things that just became highly needed information to prevent potential failures or fatalities in combat.

Would EMIYA kill Taylor if he felt it was needed? Absolutely, but he loathes his job as a Counter Guardian even if he's still faithfully doing it despite that because on occasion, like the current situation, he gets to save people. So it'd be a last resort that is highly unlikely to occur. Taylor is still very integral to saving humanity, but her secretive nature just became unacceptable in their circumstances regardless of whether she wants to open up or not.

Can he be forced to ignore it or drop the subject, sure; and maybe Taylor won't open up at all regardless of any potential future inter-team conflicts that occur because James has a future plot point where Taylor's nature ends up doing serious harm to Chaldea's mission by getting one of the Twins killed in combat. That's pure speculation on my part, really it's up to James, but I'd hope that he wouldn't have characters hold the idiot ball to that point. Even with all of that, Command Seals and what not, EMIYA could get around all of that easily if he felt it necessary to get Taylor to talk, and at least to me EMIYA would be extremely out of character not pursuing such info, one woman's feelings be damned if it saved more lives. The stakes couldn't be higher now, this is where I see his inner stubborn nature causing him to not let go of the issue.

But I'm done participating in this thread beyond hitting the reactions to chapters, at least for a few months, since clearly my insight into potential narrative pitfalls or characterization issues is not wanted. Good luck James, I'll still be reading, but clearly me posting further in this thread, at least for now, is of no use to anyone.

 

[zadcap]

Not going to reply individually since you all still haven't paid attention to exactly what I wrote,

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You're not wrong, but that's because my main point is calling out how you're calling James out in so aggressively telling him how to write his story, the topic that you're focusing on in any given rant is less important. That you think the story should be written differently, to the point it wouldn't even be this story anymore, is clear by now, but the way you phrase it all as demands and that the story must do this or that thing, has moved past constructive and into the realm of 'why not write your own fic if you feel this strong about it?' Having read the same general comment following every chapter, seeing someone else mention it too, I felt motivated to finally say something. Not sure why, I fully expect to see another post next week telling James what he needs to do to stop the story from being an absolute failure, but oh well, I'll keep enjoying it anyway.

Oh no, I agree, I doubt that this would happen. However, at no point did I say that he would immediately go to the kill option. What would most likely happen is that he'd be keeping an eye and the instant he thinks Taylor is a real threat (or if he's decided that the twins can work alone) will then try to take her out at that time.

Like I said, I was just playing devil's advocate. Honestly, Emiya should be thinking that Taylor is suspicious and should be keeping an eye on her. Any more than that, I doubt it because there should be some type of resolution to all this by the time anything like this becomes a concern.

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It's an interesting idea because now you have to ask, to what is Taylor a real threat that he would actually consider taking her out? It's a hilarious mirror of the Gold Morning and Cauldron debates, what could she possibly do that would weigh against the active and ongoing human existing extinction threat, that would justify taking her out? We've only just hit the first hint of it with Jalter, but when the alternative is "all humanity forever is gone," Chaldea will work with truly terrible people who do still just want to continue existing.

It doesn't really actually matter what her power is, how powerful it is, what it's source may be, or what she wants to or can do with it. Unless she turns around and kills the other two masters and disables Chaldea from being able to save all of humanity, she can genuinely be the worst monster to have ever existed and it would still be a net gain to keep her on the team.

If she tortures puppies for fun and drinks blended baby for her breakfast protein but is fighting for the survival of humanity(have to get those babies from somewhere, you know), then the Counter Guardian, servant of Humanities Desire to Continue, he's still going to defend her to the death. A power and history that she doesn't want to talk about... Don't really rate on the scale of things to put up with when saving the world, especially when she still seems to be the leading candidate for "person still alive most likely to succeed in saving the world."

 

[Raiseth]

Y'know, lots of people talk about Emiya the Heroic Spirit like he's some kinda ruthless, baby-shooting machine willing to kill thousands to save millions any day, any time.

Not only he disproves this self-characterization in the very work he's introduced in, he actually kinda deliberately self-sabotages his stated goal of killing his own younger self, so much so you almost have to actively try to get killed by him. There's only one bad ending from dying to him out of about 40. Just about everyone else participating in the war kills him more times than that.

As a special mention, in the endings where Shirou gets his memory erased and stops participating in the war, absolutely nothing prevents Archer from killing him and arranging it to look like some other Servant did it, he can even imitate wounds made by other Noble Phantasms by projecting them ffs. Yet he doesn't. He leaves himself alone.

Emiya is Rin's compatibility summon, lol, since he's a massive tsundere.

Leaving that aside, I have two points to make.

First. This Emiya isn't summoned by the Counter Force. He's not a stray, he's not a Counter Guardian, he's a Servant. Nothing at the moment is compelling him to kill in the name of the greater good except maybe his fucked up conscience and ingrained habits.

Second, Heroic Spirits might be the entirety of someone's existence, but Servants aren't. They are interpretations. This Emiya might even have the memories of FSN, and it doesn't change anything, because they are separate instances of the liminal being residing in the Throne. They might share opinions, likes and dislikes, cooking skills, but they still have differences, like you from a previous year is different from you in this year, if you are also an incorporeal transhuman avatar of a spiritual being storing the majority of your consciousness in a magical apparently atemporal fortress.

Summarizing this wankery, that Emiya was an angsty self-hating gyaruo chuuni, this Emiya is a long-suffering chef extraordinaire gyarou chuuni, who gets the closest he realistically can get in his life to playing a morally unambiguous Ally of Justice.

This crisis is depressingly the high point of Emiya's immortal existence. Will he make hard calls, betray allies, kill people, I dunno, kick puppies? Yeah, probably. Will he get out of his way to do this when it still looks like it can be resolved in another way? No.

Taylor demonstrates ability to control Phantasmal Beasts? How terrifying. Emiya is shuddering in horror and consternation. He might just soil himself. Ah no, wait, he's laughing. If anything, Taylor already demonstrated she's dangerous by being competent and having combat experience, along with willingness to get her hands dirty if she has to.

That's what makes her dangerous, her resourcefulness and determination, not the ability to control bugs and magical crabs. Emiya fought Arthur, Gilgamesh and Heracles, his soul is made of fucking swords, he met the goddamned Kotomine, he's not a stranger to threatening people and situations, he himself is a threatening person who refuses to disclose much of his past.

In conclusion, I don't believe there is anything Taylor has done or demonstrated that makes her an outstanding threat to humanity Emiya would seriously consider eliminating, and she's to boot leading the field team that is trying to save it. He's not going to sabotage her to satisfy his curiosity or paranoia, due to however many reasons you can get out of the previous five hundred words.

 

[Parks_98]

Echoing cries of alarm spilled out of the pirates, who all backpedaled away from the giant hermit crab that was making its way towards us. Someone pulled out a pistol, but a fly buzzing up in front of his face made his shot go wide, and the lead ball hit the sand instead of the crab.

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Ohhh shit its the damn crabs

Wait a second if Taylor can control Phantasmal creatures I wonder if she can control famous creatures like the Karkinos

"Well then," she said, as casual as the weather. "Looks like I'm at your mercy, Chaldea. The great Francis Drake is yours to do with as you please."

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*Cue Careless whisper*

"Did…" Ritsuka began incredulously, "she just say what I think she did?"

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Yes. Yes she did.

Man both Orion and David are going to be so damn jelly if they hear about that.

So, what's Rika's nickname for Drake going to be? Back Pain? Can't do anything butt related, she already did that with Boudica. Floatie (because her boobs double as flotation devices)?

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Francis D Drake

Cause DD and one piece references

 

[Faralis]

He was a pioneer who circumnavigated the globe for the first time in history

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Magallanes & Elcano: "What are we, chopper liver?"