Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

[Formerly]

The problem with humans vs Servants is that apparently humanity still occasionally produces an absolute monster that can do that, and not every Servant is particularly impressive.
Lorelei can fight on equal footing with DAAs and DAAs are about on par with Servants. The Aoko thing was in regards to Aoko not using the 5th Magic.
And Rin of all people managed to bring things into a punch out with Medea that she was winning until Souichiro intervened. Now imagine if instead of Medea she fought Medea Lily or some other Servant with equally unimpressive physical abilities, combat skill, and warrior spirit. And for all the flowery language about how good Angry Mango is at killing humans there are humans that have put up better showings than him. Including a good portion of the Masters from the 5th HGW.
Don't even get me started with the sheer shenanigans of the Crypters. Wodime was awesome and deserved better, Pepe was awesome and deserved better, Baryl deserves to die needing to scream but having no mouth, and at this rate I expect Daybit to magically suplex ORT so hard the Planet registers it as an attack and expels it into the Sun with Excalibur.
TLDR:

 

[zadcap]

A Human never beat a Servant, every time a human has fought a Servant in Fate/Stay Night the human almost always died but got saved by ether Luck of timely intervention. It's even been stated that some of the most broken Humans, Shiki Ryougi and Ao can't beat servants 1v1.

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Yeah, that's why I'm not talking anywhere about her beating a Servant. But putting up enough of a fight to make a meaningful difference when working with Servants on her own side? That's what enough Masters have done throughout the Fate series to be worth mentioning. And also, you know, Grand Order does a lot, unintentionally, to remind us that not all Servants are that great. Like for real, go and look through the list of one and two star servants and tell me Shiki and Ao really lose those fights.
Not that I want to see Taylor on the level of Shiki or Ao. I want to see her closer to Emiya or Rin- able to do enough to matter, not a chance of winning on her own.


Speaking of-

And Rin of all people managed to bring things into a punch out with Medea that she was winning until Souichiro intervened.

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Didn't she also actually kill Hercules one time? Like, Rin herself hit him with enough magic to take one of his lives? Rin, a human magus of the current era, did actually manage to pull off a magic attack powerful enough to kill a Berserker class Servant. His self resurrection ability aside, this is actually a thing that happened.

 

[Formerly]

Speaking of-


Didn't she also actually kill Hercules one time? Like, Rin herself hit him with enough magic to take one of his lives? Rin, a human magus of the current era, did actually manage to pull off a magic attack powerful enough to kill a Berserker class Servant. His self resurrection ability aside, this is actually a thing that happened.

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While it is very impressive I feel like pulling one over on a Berserker doesn't really count. There's really nothing special about landing a kill shot on the raging murderbeast running dick first into a pike line other than having an old enough pike and being strong enough to hold it. And Berserker ostensibly let it happen because to him it was inconsequential. We've seen what he does when he actually feels threatened. At any time he could've dashed Rin's genius brains against a rock and been done with her. Probably including between her blowing his head off and his head growing back because Berserkacles Stronk.

 

[buli-buli]

Eh. The 5th Fuyuki Holy Grail War is a joke if you are looking to compare feats.

Saber is functionally crippled for most of it between Shirou's terrible abilities as a Master and her own accumulating injuries.

Rider is functionally crippled for most of it, thanks to having Shinji as a repeated temp Master.

Lancer is under orders not to kill his opponents and (judging by the home invasion murders) is being forced to supplement the mana he gets from Kirei (probably for shits and giggles).

Berserker is in his weakest class.

Archer describes himself as weak, but diverse. And he is jobbing a lot.

False Assassin is a fake heroic spirit.

Really, only Caster is running at top form.

 

[zadcap]

No, he totally gave her the shot, she could have been killed at any time, absolutely. I'm talking about how she had enough power to do enough damage to deliver a killing blow to the most physically impressive servant in that war. All else aside, it is literally a single act that disapproves the "modern humans could never kill a Servant, period" argument. The "strong enough to hold it" is actually the part of your analogy that matters, because the rest can be replicated, get an enemy furious and luring them into a trap is a pretty standard tactic against stronger foes.

If the criteria is 1v1 all out fight, then yeah, nothing but the strongest of humans versus the weakest of servants maybe have a chance of being a human victory. But 99% of the time, the result is dead humans. 99.9%. But not 100%, and that's important because we're dealing with Protagonists. They have this annoying tenancy to win in the end, if it's at all possible, no matter how unlikely.

Also, there's a general thing about the nasuverse- every single rule or law in it exists to be broken by someone, somewhere.

 

[Formerly]

and that's important because we're dealing with Protagonists. They have this annoying tenancy to win in the end, if it's at all possible, no matter how unlikely.

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Yeah that's why Kadoc was in the A-team. He wasn't particularly impressive by any important metric, but there was one tiny little thing special about him. Despite not being a Main Character he could still tap into the Protagonist Force and perform way above his character class.

 

[James D. Fawkes]

No, he totally gave her the shot, she could have been killed at any time, absolutely. I'm talking about how she had enough power to do enough damage to deliver a killing blow to the most physically impressive servant in that war. All else aside, it is literally a single act that disapproves the "modern humans could never kill a Servant, period" argument. The "strong enough to hold it" is actually the part of your analogy that matters, because the rest can be replicated, get an enemy furious and luring them into a trap is a pretty standard tactic against stronger foes.

If the criteria is 1v1 all out fight, then yeah, nothing but the strongest of humans versus the weakest of servants maybe have a chance of being a human victory. But 99% of the time, the result is dead humans. 99.9%. But not 100%, and that's important because we're dealing with Protagonists. They have this annoying tenancy to win in the end, if it's at all possible, no matter how unlikely.

Also, there's a general thing about the nasuverse- every single rule or law in it exists to be broken by someone, somewhere.

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What my one friend calls "Hero Kotomine" is in that .1%. That is, the Kotomine from "ten years ago" that we saw in Fate/Zero. Middle aged Kirei holds his own against Cursed Arm, enough to lure CA into a trap. Fate/Zero Kirei could likely have put most Assassins and Casters into the ground.

Super Bajiquan is hax, yo.

 

[Chuck12]

Yeah, that's why I'm not talking anywhere about her beating a Servant. But putting up enough of a fight to make a meaningful difference when working with Servants on her own side? That's what enough Masters have done throughout the Fate series to be worth mentioning. And also, you know, Grand Order does a lot, unintentionally, to remind us that not all Servants are that great. Like for real, go and look through the list of one and two star servants and tell me Shiki and Ao really lose those fights.
Not that I want to see Taylor on the level of Shiki or Ao. I want to see her closer to Emiya or Rin- able to do enough to matter, not a chance of winning on her own.

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True, In fate/ technically anyone can best anyone under the right circumstances, Taylors greatest strength is that she was almost always underestimated.

A Servant E rank or not still has 50 times the strength of a human, while I can't see Ryougi ever losing to Hans or Anderson in a straight up fight I also can't see her winning against someone like Cursed Arm, or Medea flicker time you know? But shrug you right. Ao was said to have a chance against Casters, and that's cool, but that's more because of her Magical Gunner status, she won't lose against Authors but people like Medea would probably give her a real run for her money under the right circumstances though she could probably insta kill her. Ryougi third personality could wins by default because of her Root connection, damn Admin Hax.

 

[Shade666]

True, In fate/ technically anyone can best anyone under the right circumstances, Taylors greatest strength is that she was almost always underestimated.

A Servant E rank or not still has 50 times the strength of a human, while I can't see Ryougi ever losing to Hans or Anderson in a straight up fight I also can't see her winning against someone like Cursed Arm, or Medea flicker time you know? But shrug you right. Ao was said to have a chance against Casters, and that's cool, but that's more because of her Magical Gunner status, she won't lose against Authors but people like Medea would probably give her a real run for her money under the right circumstances though she could probably insta kill her. Ryougi third personality could wins by default because of her Root connection, damn Admin Hax.

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The servant ranting is that A is 50x greater than human undernormal circumstances. E is a merely ten times greater than a max human.

 

[Impstar]

Please don't take the human to servant strength ratings verbatim, hard numbers like that are the bane of creativity; most servant feats make no sense if you take those numbers literally.

 

[Windborne]

Really, only Caster is running at top form.

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Nope, she was weaker as well. Medea did after all kill her original summoner and was all set on fading away when Kuzuki found her. He is by no means a proper Master either. There's a reason why she took up residence at the temple after all, it has a freaking Leyline under it that she tapped into to make up for having essentially a normal person with no magical background whatsoever as her Master. Even Shirou is a better Master than Kuzuki, even as shitty a one as Shirou is.

And for those thinking Rin taking on Caster was impressive, remember Rin's an Average One, which is very rare and allows her to be amazing at every Magecraft discipline with her having all 5 major affinities as her Element, and Caster was pretty weakened having tried to break through Saber's Magic Resistance for hours at that point. If Caster was in good shape with a proper master the fight would have gone very, very differently. None of the Grail Wars were ever conducted properly, all of them were failures in multiple ways. But given how Magus act that isn't really surprising. Honestly it was a clusterfuck from the inception.

A good Master is one that can supply a good amount of Prana to their Servant. A great Master is one who can work incredibly well with their Servant, even if they can't supply as much Prana as the other Masters. In that way Hakuno and Ritsuka are amazing Masters, because they work together with their Servants despite being utterly crap Magus. Most Master-Servant pairs are utter garbage. Honestly the using a Catalyst to summon your Servant thing is almost always a bad idea when done regularly, the only ones I can think of who got an even slightly ideal match were Waver and Illya. Shirou was a terrible partner with Artoria as an example.

Artoria is ok for Shirou on the surface level, they both are fairly righteous individuals so you'd think they're a great team. But Artoria enabled Shirou's delusions way too much, to a dangerous extent. If she insisted on him being a supporter from the rear he could easily have helped her better by using even simple arrows he Reinforced with his excellent archery skills. Sure they wouldn't damage their enemies, but they don't need to, distractions or deflecting a weapon by even a centimeter would have been incredibly useful against Berserker and others. He held off Lancer by using his Reinforcement on a rolled up piece of paper if I remember correctly, he could easily annoy others with some arrows.

Taylor is looking to be shaping up to be an amazing Master, because she knows when to work with her Servant to really capitalize on their combined talents, or when to listen to their advice. Whether she'll keep doing so is the real question we'll see answered in the, hopefully near, future.

 

[Nitramy]

Something I came up with on a whim.

***

Once the energy subsided and the image of the golden Saber card vanished, a figure in armor was standing in front of Taylor and the others.

"I, Gawain, have now pledged myself to your cause!" the woman declared, and upon seeing the expressions of her Master, continued. "What's with that face, is my face that strange?"

Taylor shook her head.

"Not me, but my name? I see. Well, that is fine, but..."

She could hear the Saber-class Servant's thoughts after that.

Could it be, that the real Sir Gawain is here?

***

"I may not be a real knight of the Round Table," the Saber-class Servant declared as her sword of swirling red blazed with her determination, "but my loyalty to my Master is unquestioned! You will fall by her orders, and I will see it through without fail! Prepare to witness the walls of domination!"

Flaming spectral heads of hounds appeared as she swung her blade, cleaving homunculi apart in her wake as she tore through the battlefield.

"Now, perish! PREDATORY HORN OF THE SUN!"

The battlefield briefly turned into an inferno, and when the flames died away, there stood Taylor's servant, standing tall.

"So much for a normal trip to fetch dinner for Master," she said, right before returning to Chaldea.

***

Servant summoned: Fairy Knight Gawain AKA the Black Dog Barghest. Also the catalyst for this summoning is Taylor's bad experiences with people whose mentality is "survival of the fittest" cough Sophia cough

Also, it would be absurdly hilarious if Taylor's Servant roster are members of the Chaldea Kitchen Squad, and all of them are a bit concerned about Taylor's thinness. Besides, Fairy Knight Gawain, while she might have a philosophy Taylor doesn't like, she's still best doggo waifu and will serve her Master faithfully.

 

[Chuck12]

Please don't take the human to servant strength ratings verbatim, hard numbers like that are the bane of creativity; most servant feats make no sense if you take those numbers literally.

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It's just a stat check on if a servsnt is able to do something or not and stats aren't everything, Kojiro was able to hold off both Saber and Archer on his own without sustaining any real damage despite his Stats being highly inferior and Dante moves at the speed of thought despite having agility C because of his NP. So like it's not like there isn't room for creativity but on the flip side we shouldn't ignore what their realistically capable of ether, a servant with C rank agility isn't likely to survive Hercules without assistance.

The servant ranting is that A is 50x greater than human undernormal circumstances. E is a merely ten times greater than a max human.

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Thanks for that, idk why I forgot that but yea Parameter Rules.

 

[Impstar]

It's just a stat check on if a servsnt is able to do something or not and stats aren't everything, Kojiro was able to hold off both Saber and Archer on his own without sustaining any real damage despite his Stats being highly inferior and Dante moves at the speed of thought despite having agility C because of his NP. So like it's not like there isn't room for creativity but on the flip side we shouldn't ignore what their realistically capable of ether, a servant with C rank agility isn't likely to survive Hercules without assistance.

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Servant ranks are okay, what I don't agree with is quantifying them with stuff like, "oh, this guy's 30x stronger than a human!"

 

[Chuck12]

Servant ranks are okay, what I don't agree with is quantifying them with stuff like, "oh, this guy's 30x stronger than a human!"

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To be fair that actually does make sense with the nature of their bodies containing a fraction of a person. Them being reduced to numbers only makes sense when their whole can't fit inside a container. If you mean the ambiguity of how strong an average person is in general though…. Yea that is annoying.

 

[Couch-Gamer]

Another form of agency is Taylor's summoning ability. If I had to guess it fails because without a catalyst it defaults to trying to summon her future self, realizes she isn't dead, and glitches out.

Now she will probably get a guaranteed summon and of Cu or Scahatch since she made such a great impression on Caster.

 

[Formerly]

Another form of agency is Taylor's summoning ability. If I had to guess it fails because without a catalyst it defaults to trying to summon her future self, realizes she isn't dead, and glitches out.

Now she will probably get a guaranteed summon and of Cu or Scahatch since she made such a great impression on Caster.

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Regarding Taylor summoning Taylor, James has already said it simply isn't what this story is about.
Maybe it'll happen in CitLB if James decides he'll take a stab at writing Part 2. After all who better to kill the Alien God than the hero who became a Hero by killing an alien god. But that's currently not in the cards because James doesn't want to write CitLB while it's still unfinished (and may not wish to do a sequel at all).

 

[Windborne]

Now she will probably get a guaranteed summon and of Cu or Scahatch since she made such a great impression on Caster.

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I've covered this before, but she's not going to summon either of them. They just aren't compatible with her in terms of summoning without a Catalyst. Look up my past posts in this thread as to the why. I'm not repeating them. And as @Formerly said, Taylor won't be summoning herself. She didn't fail summoning because she tried to summon herself. Again I've made multiple posts detailing why it would never happen, even without taking in @James D. Fawkes stating it won't happen into account.

If James decides he'll take a stab at writing Part 2.

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I honestly hope he considers it, this story could go on for years if he includes all the Events. Which is something I seriously hope he considers, as Taylor just going through the Singularities might just end up with her acting the exact same way she acted after turning herself in to the PRT and Protectorate. So it's entirely possible Part Two could be finished by the time EoR is over in this story, another thing I hope is included in this story as well. Because it'd be great to see Taylor vent her spleen at Agartha, or deal with Shimousa and Salem, not to mention the CCC event which is just as good as Camelot, though not quite reaching Babylonia levels.

The Events add some very useful down time narratively, which is how I could best see Taylor achieving his stated goal of "Learning to Fight to Live, rather than Live to Fight". It's absolutely possible to achieve without it, but if it's just Chaldea tackling one Singularity after another with no real down time in between there's very little reason why Taylor should or would take her foot off the gas pedal so to speak. And considering this won't have a major romantic subplot as per the info post at the beginning, I don't see Taylor taking her foot off the gas without some serious reasons like romance or experiencing the Events.

 

[The-Chained-One]

Another form of agency is Taylor's summoning ability. If I had to guess it fails because without a catalyst it defaults to trying to summon her future self, realizes she isn't dead, and glitches out.

Now she will probably get a guaranteed summon and of Cu or Scahatch since she made such a great impression on Caster.

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It's been said before, taylor summoning herself doesn't make sense, she'd get a compatibility summon if she doesn't have a catalyst, and she's really not that compatible with her own potential heroic spirits. Also, summoning oneself has happened before, even when you're not dead yet. Some guy managed to summon himself for example With a catalyst. It's really not that common for the grail to default to someones heroic spirit self, kinda the opposite. Most people hate their teenage self for example. She's more likely to get a servant mentally compatible with her. The whole thing with her summon failing Is most likely something interfering with her ability to compatibility summon. cause like she did make contact with something but it couldn't arrive.

 

[Sakuya's Butler]

Know its not the right place but I just pulled a double rider DaVinci. I thought I peaked when I pulled my Second Jalter but this is even better.

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I think my luck peaked at getting a double Merlin on the same 10 pull the 1st day he became available.

HILARIOUSLY.....I rarely use him. I have Waver & Skadi, which means he's now firmly 'optional' (sorry best Fox Wife, you've bee retired completely). Plus a lvl100 Jackie w/ command code boosts, whenever I want to wreck Rider face, so I still effectively get max stars.

If it makes you feel better, I'm up to 900(!) quartz spent this summer event. NP5'd Ushi *headpats* and NP2'd my Ibaraki, but not even one sign of SummerJeanne. Annoying, as she's the only 'Jeanneface' I don't have (picked up Lakshmibai last month).

From what I remember with Okeanos Drake stole the Grail from Blackbeard and the first half of the Singularity is the ship equivalent of a high speed car chase, the second half is Chaldea and co running from the fucking Argonauts (the most badass sailors in mythology ever) because Heracles and then Jason are fucking terrifying.

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Correction here.
Jason is a freaking arrogant, head-up-ass, Karen-ish, jerk with little to NOTHING of value to back up his claims at being a Heroic Spirit. Almost everything he is, is BORROWED from another HP.

Its that Hercules is THAT fucking terrifying. Full Stop. Drop the mic. That's it folks.

The only worse Herc encounter is the one that nobody memes, simply because nobody has yet gotten over the sheer PTSD we all got from it, which is in Agartha. That one lingers in your head the way a Soulsborne boss does - you don't beat it, you lucked out and survived it.

On that note, Taylor is -so- going to have Behemoth/Leviathan PTSD flashbacks when running into that version of him. Freaking Goetia wasn't that much of a pain. Kiara, wasn't that much of a pain (imo, she's a pushover. Just that it takes 2hr to do it). He's the first endgame boss in FGO that I ever had to both use up all 3 Command Seals AND use quartz on, even after reading the strats for him. Everytime prior I'd survived without the 3 seals, or just used them one time, but I had never needed to quartz a boss prior to him. Its one eeason I've occasionally built up huge quartz stockpiles. Taylor is not going to enjoy running into him, or his 'SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER, I'M ON A BOAT!' moment.

OTOH, also in Agartha, I'm fairly certain she isn't going to be one to be nearly as merciful or patient towards Scheherazade as the canon Chaldea Master is. That and flat out grind Columbus under her heel, no hesitation, as well, having likely been suspicious as hell about him. So that incident might turn into one massive fustercluck. Fast.

*pauses*

Just thought of this, but...
How will Taylor handle Abigail, Hokusai, and Yang (Van Gogh if we go far enough)? Considering they are connected quite intimately with things Taylor could only really compare to as direct peers of Eden/Scion, she might not react well. Hokusai shouldn't quite punch her buttons, Abigail's reveal however likely would, and Yang might very well have Taylor go completely off, considering how her NP works/how she looks. Same for Mara/Kama, if up to 11, as that 'infinite Mara' stunt might see some callbacks to 'Shards. Shards Everywhere' type of comparison.

 

[Impstar]

On that note, Taylor is -so- going to have Behemoth/Leviathan PTSD flashbacks when running into that version of him. Freaking Goetia wasn't that much of a pain. Kiara, wasn't that much of a pain (imo, she's a pushover. Just that it takes 2hr to do it). He's the first endgame boss in FGO that I ever had to both use up all 3 Command Seals AND use quartz on, even after reading the strats for him. Everytime prior I'd survived without the 3 seals, or just used them one time, but I had never needed to quartz a boss prior to him. Its one eeason I've occasionally built up huge quartz stockpiles. Taylor is not going to enjoy running into him, or his 'SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER, I'M ON A BOAT!' moment.

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So, uh. Speak for yourself. I think it took me 1-2 tries with no command seals or quartz used, and was only memorable in that I got to use my grailed Chloe to kick his ass.

Kiara Giant Form is way harder depending on your team comp, in my opinion. Also I don't think you can 3x command seal or quartz her (or I just refused to do so? That's also possible, though you can use command seals individually).

Different people find different quests or bosses hard, but trust me, at least in the forum thread for FGO over on SB, Agartha Herakles isn't considered that big a deal.

Edit: Don't mean to disparage you personally or anything, I'm just trying to emphasize that just because he was a standout boss for you that he'll particularly stand out in the story in general; sure Herakles is a pain in the ass to deal with, but from a lore perspective he doesn't even make it into top 5 hardest enemies Chaldea is fighting.

 

[Windborne]

Different people find different quests or bosses hard, but trust me, at least in the forum thread for FGO over on SB, Agartha Herakles isn't considered that big a deal.

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For me it was King Hassan during the last Nero Fest we did in NA. That fight had me in tears since it went from being a very orderly fight in all the strats to being a completely random clusterfuck. I hate the Fest challenge quests. Ugh they always are such a pain in the ass when all I want to be doing is farming the shit out of the lotto. I think KH took me 6 hours? I had to save scum so much... reminds me of doing Twintania in FFXIV or Heigan in WoW. Fucking PTSD inducing fights, all three of them.

Snip

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True regarding Jason, though i think there is an initial freak out moment before Atlante calms things down. But yes Heracles is fucking terrifying enough, even if Jason is more an asshat than a threat.

As for Heracles Megalo, well I had a fairly easy time borrowing a friends NP5 Waver and just NP spamming him down with my Archuria and Foxy Wife. Both of whom I still get regular use out of a bunch.

Taylor would probably just be pissed off the entire time in Agartha. Scheherazade would probably take the brunt of her anger though, well her and Columbus. Honestly would not want to be around her in that singularity, the Twins might get some front row seats to Taylor pulling out her best tricks from her Warlord Skitter days. I kind of want to see that in story now.

And yeah Abby transforming would make her flip out, probably on Raum. Oei would probably not freak her out too much. It's really only her last Ascension that is creepy, and Taylor could easily shunt the transformation into a weird Changer power in her mental landscape to avoid the PTSD, since its just Oei fusing with daddy dearest. I'm not familiar with Yang or Van Gogh (FGO) so I'm unsure of how she'd react to them.

 

[James D. Fawkes]

And yeah Abby transforming would make her flip out, probably on Raum. Oei would probably not freak her out too much. It's really only her last Ascension that is creepy, and Taylor could easily shunt the transformation into a weird Changer power in her mental landscape to avoid the PTSD, since its just Oei fusing with daddy dearest. I'm not familiar with Yang or Van Gogh (FGO) so I'm unsure of how she'd react to them.

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As I understand it, the backstory for Van Gogh is that he committed suicide to prevent his body and his art from being used as a vessel to give the Outer Gods a foothold into Earth.

 

[Owleero]

As I understand it, the backstory for Van Gogh is that he committed suicide to prevent his body and his art from being used as a vessel to give the Outer Gods a foothold into Earth.

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That's… not quite the case. Van Gogh when normally summoned (like as a Caster), will immediately try to commit suicide, every time. To prevent that from happening, his Saint Graph was forcibly fused with the sunflower nymph Clytie, the amalgation then fused with a Colour Out Of Space.

 

[Windborne]

That's… not quite the case. Van Gogh when normally summoned (like as a Caster), will immediately try to commit suicide, every time.

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Sounds about right. Seriously Van Gogh, the actual person, was quite insane. People think he was this marvelous painter which is true, on the surface level. You dig a bit and you very quickly find out how batshit crazy the guy was. Guy cut off his ear and mailed it to the woman he fancied, which is classic stalker behavior. Him being a Foreigner Class Servant was not surprising at all to me, given how I studied Art History it totally fits him.