- Pronouns
- He
Ah, so she'll eventually truly comit to the cause and end up leading the Crypters.
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Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]
- Thread starter James D. Fawkes
- Start date
- Crossover
And then commit die on U-Olga probably
Taylor Egypt Lostbelt
With "Kephri" that seems a Alt
With "Kephri" that seems a Alt
- Pronouns
- He
On the subject of all the crypter Taylor you guys want something similar to that might I suggest Gold by ryugi
James D. Fawkes
Court Scribe
- Location
- Avalon (Isle of Mists)
Taylor's Lostbelt would be Code Geass. A LB where America lost the Revolution and Britain conquered the continent, where the British Empire never collapsed, and the LB king is... I dunno, Benedict Arnold? King George? Can you tell I'm not taking it too seriously yet?
- Location
- Argentina
I think the problem with making everyone a God is that would stop humanity progress and would doom them once Gaia starts to die.
Taarkoth
Gentleman Squid
I've become really enamored of the possibility Ryuugi brought up that the whole Foreign God plot has been a surprise crossover with Decoration Disorder Disconnection the whole time, which means it could still be on the table even with Taylor having saved FGO!Olga, as U-Olga was the Olga of a different world the whole time. It would neatly explain why U-Olga doesn't seem to have any real knowledge of or emotional connection to anyone from Chaldeas.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
About that...
U-Olga Marie, when she had amnesia, felt like punching Ritsuka in the face when she learned their name and she disliked the word demi-servant, and those are just two instances.
Not really?
If that was a problem Holmes would have said so.
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- Location
- Argentina
Holmes is a great detective but he is not good at very very very long term consequences. That's something a Sherlock Scan is completely useless for.
Gods depend on Gaia, no Gaia no Gods.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Taarkoth
Gentleman Squid
Ah. I'd missed that.
Depends on what exactly Wodime meant by 'god'. If he was planning to model humanity after the Olympians machine bodies, they wouldn't be dependent on Gaia's reality marble. The real question would be whether they could survive exposure to grain as well as a possible Type invasion if Gaia throws a bitch fit from humanity refusing to die off after she abandons that timeline.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This.
And about these.
These.
- Location
- Argentina
So far as we know it was "Heroic Spirits with organic bodies" so yeah completely dependent on Gaia.
There was zero mention of machine bodies.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, it was...
"At this rate, you'll be a lifeform that's human but with the abilities equivalent to a Heroic Spirit. By prior human metrics, that means you'll become beings of the same rank as gods."
"Abandon the human format, for with excellent vessels, higher-order perception, and next-generation standards humans shall advance into life forms that surpass the Mechanical Gods -- beings beyond human. Of course, you all are included."
They would still be humans, but they would have the same rank and capabilities as heroic spirits and gods, surpassing the Machine Gods.
So they would be as dependent of the planet as humans, maybe less.
And even if they were dependent, it wouldn't be impossible for the new humanity to find a way to overcome that.
Taylor after hearing Wodime's spiel:
View: https://youtu.be/Sx8CJBr1nd0
Nothing greases the wheels of progress like the innocent blood of billions.
Taylor would see the appeal of Wodime's plan and then absolutely despise it. It's such a neat sounding solution, but fundamentally people would still be people (read, falliable/horrible), all the power in the world would only exasperate it, and it all comes at the low low cost of everybody and everything that has ever mattered to her, everybody she's ever known, and everybody else she never cared about. How enlightened Wodime must be to speak of the gain being worth the price when he isn't the one who had to pay it.
Honestly this is the kind of thing that might go south very quickly if Taylor still has the capacity to become a Beast. Before Beryl did as Beryl does the situation's desperate enough, and if Taylor hates it enough, she might be willing to risk it. Wodime's godhood plan completely dismisses the value of her humanity. Proto-Beast Taylor would not be pleased. Nobody gets to break her things.
View: https://youtu.be/Sx8CJBr1nd0
Nothing greases the wheels of progress like the innocent blood of billions.
Taylor would see the appeal of Wodime's plan and then absolutely despise it. It's such a neat sounding solution, but fundamentally people would still be people (read, falliable/horrible), all the power in the world would only exasperate it, and it all comes at the low low cost of everybody and everything that has ever mattered to her, everybody she's ever known, and everybody else she never cared about. How enlightened Wodime must be to speak of the gain being worth the price when he isn't the one who had to pay it.
Honestly this is the kind of thing that might go south very quickly if Taylor still has the capacity to become a Beast. Before Beryl did as Beryl does the situation's desperate enough, and if Taylor hates it enough, she might be willing to risk it. Wodime's godhood plan completely dismisses the value of her humanity. Proto-Beast Taylor would not be pleased. Nobody gets to break her things.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
More escalation memes?
Anyway...
1. Wodime didn't kill those billion people, and even if he did, he wouldn't be the only one sacrificing worlds to achieve his objective.
2. Nobody knows how to fix the bleaching, erasing the 7 LB may do nothing at all, Chaldea doesn't know how to restore humanity and they are killing the other humanities in the off chance that it will solve the bleaching, Wodime plan has more chances to work than Chaldea, they don't have any guarantees.
3. If Wodime could do his plan with the previous humanity he would, but he doesn't know how and he can't because of his contract with the Alien God. He is doing the best that he can with the available resources and conditions, something that Taylor knows very well.
4. Ignoring the fact that Beryl killed Wodime because he believed that he would become a better person if Wodime succeeded, thinking that humans would still be horrible forevermore is just cynism, and even then, Kircstaria acknowledged the possibility, but he believed that they would reach the right answer eventually.
5. A cynical point of view isn't inherently more valid or realistic than a optimistic one.
6. Taylor is neither all-knowing nor the most rational thinker.
Wodime made himself the face of the destruction of humanity, nuance will be lost in opposition.
Lostbelts are all hopeless dead ends, they by definition will all end in abject failure anyhow. They are no hope for humanity, better to bet on the current end of the world having no ontological inertia like the last one.
Wodime is serving the goals of the Alien God. The Crypters have all served to prop up their Lostbelts thereby making the fight against the Alien God harder than it needed to be. Wodime did try to sabotage the AG's descent, but he failed and the whole god plan was extraneous to that.
Cynicism backed by experience. Being superhuman didn't make parahumans better, it just made them better at being awful like before. Being a magus didn't make anybody better either, but it sure did help ruin some lives and enable all sorts of unethical and immoral shit. Beryl has no basis for believing it would make him a better person, just a phobia of it.
An unfounded blind faith optimistic view is inherently less believable that an evidenced cynical one. It might not necessarily be correct, but it is more believable.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And?
She doesn't have to be.
And?
Also, "nuance will be lost in opposition"? I don't think that a meeting between Taylor and Wodime would be nuanceless.
So blind optimism then?
And if i remember correctly the incineration of mankind was reversed because of Ars Nova erasing all of Solomon work, including Goetia that included Ars Almadel Salomonis.
We don't know if Chaldea has a convenient method like that this time.
He plays along or he dies, and extraneous? His plan betrayed the alien God that is why his contract was removed and was dying.
And why he would care about making Chaldea mission harder? Again, how is Chaldea going to solve the bleaching? Until that is solved Wodime plan is objectively a better choice.
Confirmation bias, not to mention that parahuman powers are completely different to a godlike existence, Wodime plan didn't involve giving them trauma exacerbating powers that appeared in your worst day.
Something similar for magecraft, magecraft is just a tool.
Less believable and unfounded in your opinion, if the only argument that you have is that his plan wouldn't work because of cynism, then you aren't that different from a blind optimist, experience and evidence or not, especially because, well, the same way a writer can't write someone smarter than himself, we can't predict what a godlike human would do.
You are just defaulting to the worse outcome and refusing more optimistic ones because they are more "believable" and "realistic" from your point of view.
Evidenced optimism. One end of the world corrected itself once the Ender was offed. A successful Lostbelt is an oxymoron, if it could succeed then it never would've been a Lostbelt to begin with.
Ars Nova didn't undo Mash being killed or anybody who died in the Singularities, why would it undo all the consequences of Goetia's actions except for you know most of the consequences of Goetia's actions. Mash was literally vaporized by AAS, she got the Incineration too.
His plan is to make a timeline with a 0% success chance succeed. The god plan wasn't betraying the AG, the betrayal was sticking Atlas in the tree so the AG couldn't descend. You know what else stops the AG from descending? Chopping the tree before it can be used. Turning everybody into gods not needed.
Less believable because that's how rationality works. If one claims the it's going to rain elephants tomorrow, and somebody says "bullshit, elephants don't just fall from the sky" objectively speaking the cynic who does not believe it will occur has the more believable position because we know based off of observation and study that under no conditions will the sky spawn a herd of elephants to drop on us. It could be wrong though, the next day a fleet of cargo planes could airdrop a herd of elephants on everybody's heads. Still not very believable.
Wodime's plan is more absurd than that. I repeat his plan is to make a Lostbelt, the things that only exist because they can't succeed, into a success. And regardless the success of his plan still requires that Proper Human History die, and that is unacceptable for Chaldea.
And a god-like human is just a human that can do more. Still a human. Still flawed, still falliable. And if they were somehow perfect then the Lostbelt would still be doomed because perfection is just as much of a dead end as extinction.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Look, we are not going to convice each other, so let's drop it.
But about this, Goetia was the Human Order Correction Ritual that turned itself into the Human Order Incineration Ritual, he incinerated 3000 thousands years of human history to obtain the neccessary amount of energy to time travel to the beggining of the planet with Ars Almadel Salomonis.
When Ars Nova activated the Human Orden Correction Ritual now Incineration Ritual, began to dissapear, and if the Incineration Ritual didn't "exist" (the erasure wasn't retroactive) then that meant that the earth wasn't incinerated, of course there were consequences like the missing year and the like.
Mash death ocurred inside Ars Paulina, a place outside of space-time and the singularities were alredy corrected.
Basically, Ars Nova didn't erase Goetia actions, it erased Solomon works(in a non retroactive way).
But that's my opinion, unless you have a better idea as to why the earth returned to normal and things happened the way they happened?
But about this, Goetia was the Human Order Correction Ritual that turned itself into the Human Order Incineration Ritual, he incinerated 3000 thousands years of human history to obtain the neccessary amount of energy to time travel to the beggining of the planet with Ars Almadel Salomonis.
When Ars Nova activated the Human Orden Correction Ritual now Incineration Ritual, began to dissapear, and if the Incineration Ritual didn't "exist" (the erasure wasn't retroactive) then that meant that the earth wasn't incinerated, of course there were consequences like the missing year and the like.
Mash death ocurred inside Ars Paulina, a place outside of space-time and the singularities were alredy corrected.
Basically, Ars Nova didn't erase Goetia actions, it erased Solomon works(in a non retroactive way).
But that's my opinion, unless you have a better idea as to why the earth returned to normal and things happened the way they happened?
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If it erased all the works of Solomon then why is Chaldea still around? Why isn't a completely human Lev still around. Both Chaldea's formation and Lev's death were completely works of Solomon. Without Solomon's works Olga's father doesn't win the Grail War and Chaldea doesn't get off the ground, and without Goetia Lev never goes Demon God. This is turning into a big ball of timey-whimey mess...
I'm starting to think we're guilty of the standard SV/SB problem of thinking about a part of fiction harder than the writers ever did.
rafuki22
Anti-nihilist(maybe).
- Location
- Earth/Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is what it says in the wiki.
Ars Nova: The Time of Parting has Come, He is the One who Lets Go of the World (訣別の時きたれり、其は世界を手放すものアルス・ノヴァ, Ketsubetsu no Toki Kitareri, So wa Sekai wo Tebanasu MonoArusu Nova?) is the first Noble Phantasm of Solomon. It is the crystallization of the legend in which Solomon returned his rings to the heavens of his own will, and the only act he performed as a "human" hero. The Noble Phantasm possessed by the true Solomon and not by Goetia. A poem of farewell in which he lets go of every accomplishment, miracle, and magecraft he has.[1]
Upon activation, he returns God's gifts back to the heavens and loses his Clairvoyance. The effect is Solomon's death. In other words, the self-destruction of the 72 Demon Gods. It is a fail-safe designed for the case in which magecraft became an "evil" for humanity in the far future. Once activated, every trace of Solomon vanishes from this world ― even on the Throne of Heroes.[1]
Solomon's complete obliteration does not mean the erasure of Solomon, but rather that everything that is his to do is completed and finished.
All living things, when they meet their ends, have "unfinished business" that they leave behind. This is something true of everyone, regardless of how perfect a life they may have led. The path of human history is created when the people who follow pick up and bear these "remains". And a complete obliteration means to ascend from this path - to complete everything one has been tasked with, and to reach a state of existence in which there is "nothing left to do".
There is no longer a need to defeat him, or rely on him. No longer, will anyone ask of him, or need to shoulder his death, and no further help or accomplishments from him will be sought. This means a disappearance from even the Throne of Heroes. A release from the duties of one's existence - a completion of all the tasks for one to do in this universe.
In contrast to the savior known as the only one among humanity to achieve enlightenment, the coward reached a different sort of "finality".[2]
All ten of Solomon's rings are required for its use. Solomon had sent his last ring to the future on a revelation from God, so Goetia was unable to know the True Name of this Noble Phantasm. As it is the actual Ring and not a copy summoned from the Throne, its effects are unable to be cancelled by Goetia's Nega-Summon Skill.
Upon activation, he returns God's gifts back to the heavens and loses his Clairvoyance. The effect is Solomon's death. In other words, the self-destruction of the 72 Demon Gods. It is a fail-safe designed for the case in which magecraft became an "evil" for humanity in the far future. Once activated, every trace of Solomon vanishes from this world ― even on the Throne of Heroes.[1]
Solomon's complete obliteration does not mean the erasure of Solomon, but rather that everything that is his to do is completed and finished.
All living things, when they meet their ends, have "unfinished business" that they leave behind. This is something true of everyone, regardless of how perfect a life they may have led. The path of human history is created when the people who follow pick up and bear these "remains". And a complete obliteration means to ascend from this path - to complete everything one has been tasked with, and to reach a state of existence in which there is "nothing left to do".
There is no longer a need to defeat him, or rely on him. No longer, will anyone ask of him, or need to shoulder his death, and no further help or accomplishments from him will be sought. This means a disappearance from even the Throne of Heroes. A release from the duties of one's existence - a completion of all the tasks for one to do in this universe.
In contrast to the savior known as the only one among humanity to achieve enlightenment, the coward reached a different sort of "finality".[2]
All ten of Solomon's rings are required for its use. Solomon had sent his last ring to the future on a revelation from God, so Goetia was unable to know the True Name of this Noble Phantasm. As it is the actual Ring and not a copy summoned from the Throne, its effects are unable to be cancelled by Goetia's Nega-Summon Skill.
Jumping in on the whole what does Ars Nova do, it ends Solomon's Legend as an ongoing tale.
The story of what the being Solomon did is done, which is why he is erased from the Throne (which can continue the story of the Heroic Spirits) but not from the Akashic Record because Solomon did exist, but he continues to exist no longer.
Think of it like a pseudo-Timelock that is placed at the Final Singularity. After Ars Nova is used, no other iteration of the being Solomon can be said to exist.
Goetia was in Solomon's corpse, using it both as the "Grand Caster" and the overmind of the 72 Pillars. Ars Nova axes his usurpation of Solomon's body, which is why Human King Goetia can continue existing even if he is falling apart: Goetia is a different existence from Solomon.
The Foundations of Magecraft were a complete work, so they cannot be finished because they already were. Chaldea was already established before Solomon's existence and is independent of his continued presence.
The story of what the being Solomon did is done, which is why he is erased from the Throne (which can continue the story of the Heroic Spirits) but not from the Akashic Record because Solomon did exist, but he continues to exist no longer.
Think of it like a pseudo-Timelock that is placed at the Final Singularity. After Ars Nova is used, no other iteration of the being Solomon can be said to exist.
Goetia was in Solomon's corpse, using it both as the "Grand Caster" and the overmind of the 72 Pillars. Ars Nova axes his usurpation of Solomon's body, which is why Human King Goetia can continue existing even if he is falling apart: Goetia is a different existence from Solomon.
The Foundations of Magecraft were a complete work, so they cannot be finished because they already were. Chaldea was already established before Solomon's existence and is independent of his continued presence.
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Reminder that time was fucked to an incredible extent and the World is actively fixing that issue whenever they pop up. There's a reason Singularities are fixed whenever the Grail powering it is removed, because the World itself fixes what went wrong and reverts it. Goetia's plan was to essentially screw up the foundations that made Proper Human History to be able to revert it all back and create humans in what he desired to do. Chaldea fixed that, therefore fixing the Incineration of Humanity. Hell, even that doesn't have it's consequences, as literally 1 year was just wiped out from human time, and nobody has any memory of it, (which how the actual hell is magical secrecy still enforced with that.) On the other hand, the bleaching of Earth isn't exactly disliked, or liked by Gaia so that's a strong if on whether it'd fix itself.
Plus, not only that, time wasn't screwed up in the plan to bleach the Earth. It just simply was bleached by force by the Alien God in the present era, removing any sort of possibility that it would fix itself once all the Lostbelts are gone. We don't know however, and we'll have to wait for the end of Part 2 to show what happens next.
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