Harry Potter and the Skittering Spouse

Flash forward to the modern era of firearms. Unload a full auto assault rifle into a shield charm and as far as I'm concerned only those on the level of Dumbledore or Voldemort could stand up to a thirty round mag without their shield breaking. Especially if it's a large caliber round
I'd argue it depends on precisely what they cast to shield themselves. For instance transfiguring a stone wall to protect themselves. Or for a more canonical bullet-catcher candidate, angry buffalo.

Edit:yes I'm aware of over penetration still reaching the wizard through the buffalo but I was mostly using it as an example of the absurd options in the wizarding toolbox
 
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Author: Says a somewhat controversial take.
A select few fans: That's not really how that seems to work though?
Author: Hmm. Well, I disagree, but give me a lore check anyways.
Fans: Sure, alright. Here's basically the wiki page.
You: How dare you fans get uppity and have opinions! I'm trying to force you to shut down your discussion because fuck you! The author of the fic has the final say so, so you guys should just stfu!

Okay, guy.
 
Author: Says a somewhat controversial take.
A select few fans: That's not really how that seems to work though?
Author: Hmm. Well, I disagree, but give me a lore check anyways.
Fans: Sure, alright. Here's basically the wiki page.
You: How dare you fans get uppity and have opinions! I'm trying to force you to shut down your discussion because fuck you! The author of the fic has the final say so, so you guys should just stfu!

Okay, guy.
If that's how you chose to interpret my post, you are welcome to do so. My post was more intended to convey a massive annoyance at the general behavior of fanfic readers whining about canon when the author has made it clear through a threadmarked post on how things work in their HP fanfic. A fanwork does not have to and genuinely should not follow the stations of canon all that closely, especially when doing so would prevent the author from making the work they want to. Yeah, sure, you can argue that (and I agree) that in Lore, HP Magic is largely conceptual and is "MAGIC IS SUPERIOR TO ALL TECH NO MATTER WHAT" because it's conceptual. That does not mean that Fencer has to use that canon when he is writing a fanfiction, especially when doing so would prevent him from writing the story he wants to.

And frankly, having been the subject of lore nerds coming into something I made and ruining it for me, I get rather tired of seeing it happen over and over and over again. This isn't an accusation that this is happening yet, I would like to point out. It's a grievance I have due to something that happened in the past, and I am well aware of that bias. I just tend to get snippy when I see the signs of it happening on a fic I enjoy, especially when it tends to sap motivation from the writer, which leads to either slower updates or abandonment in extreme cases. I really do get being passionate about lore. I've done it myself several times even, especially when Fire Emblem or Pokemon comes up as a topic. I just generally tend to not bother the author about it, but rather use it as a backup for my argument with another user.
 
Basic shield charms being able to stand up to modern guns just as easily as older style guns is more difficult to believe than, I don't know, any Transfiguration spell ever?
Well, okay, you're the guy writing the story. But canon basically disagrees with you. Hard. Th energy behind the bullet doesn't matter to HP 'It's basically conceptual based' magic, what matters is that the shield spell line basically laugh at physical attacks and only start having trouble when its magical attacks.

The joke was about your spelling of wasting.

As for the Shield Spell
The Shield Charm[3] (Protego)[1] was a charm that protected the caster with an invisible shield that reflected spells and blocked physical entities.[3] There were also multiple variations of the Shield Charm.
The Shield Charm's origins were unknown, but was in use by the 15th century.[8]

The most famous use of the charm took place in 1484, in the town of Poppleton, where the tyrannical Earl of Paunchley held a jousting match. He insisted that all the nobles for miles around must come to cheer him on at the tournament and "no excuse would be acceptable" for missing the event. But young Edmund Gaddlegate fell out of a tree that day and broke his leg, and his mother put him to bed. The Earl wouldn't hear of anyone staying home, so he dragged Edmund and his mother to the castle, and said the mother had to watch while her child was tied to a horse and forced to compete in the jousting.[8]

The other knights left the tournament "in disgust" at the idea of jousting with a small injured boy, so the Earl vowed that he himself would attack Edmund. But a witch in the crowd named Hannah Cockleford had other ideas.[8] Fed up with the evil Earl, she cast an extremely strong Shield Charm between Edmund and the Earl, who was "squashed flat in his armour" when the Shield Charm knocked him backwards and his horse landed on him. The Earl of Paunchley did not die, but when he came-to he was under the impression that he was a donkey named Hairy Cyril.[8]

Now, Protego is basically the second biggest brother (Protego Maxima) of the general shield line, so you could argue lesser shield spells would have issues, but nothing we've ever seen from canon suggests firearms are an actual serious threat to a well trained adult wizard for anything but the wizard's own incompetence. And Protego according to the movies and games can be cast in several different ways, such as 'Shield', 'Wall in front of me', and 'Bubble shield'. The Shield format seems to be the beginner form, but the wall is also canon because Hermione casts it like that in the tent during Ron and Harry's argument in the 7th book. The only version of it we don't see in the books is the Bubble Shied format.

Other varieties of the Shield Charm included as followed:
Thank you for the lore drop maybe ease up on the snark. To answer the thrust of your comment. I absolutely hate conceptual defenses. It's like watching a group of kids play tag and that one little shit just insists he's never been tagged because he's actually a ghost and you can't touch him. Sure in this case even if I went with that lore it would still need them to get the shield up in time. But really? Beyond the one moment of levity where Taylor swarms the dumb fuck bragging from behind an Impenetrable shield playing into the whole magic always wins argument feels like agreeing with the villains of the story and frankly fuck that. So yes magic is a ridiculously flexible advantage but it's not going to be an insta win button in a straight fight.
 
I think there are several things that are telling with regards to shield charms.

First, centaurs using bows and arrows (and trampling) are able to kill death eaters in the final battle (and presumably people attacking in the final battle at the minimum know how to use a shield charm, because they aren't just civilians). Maybe it is just because they can't hold shield charms up indefinitely and get hit when they aren't paying attention, but if bows are a serious threat, than I don't see how guns aren't too.

The other thing that argues that shield charms are not an absolute defense is that the reason why Britain got on board the statue of secrecy in canon was because the British King refused to give additional protection to wizards over the witch hunts because Magicals were getting killed in large numbers. If the shield charm can easily stop any physical attacks, then I don't see how Magicals were getting regularly killed by angry peasants (presumably during active witch hunts, learning how to protect yourself is a high priority, so they should know how to do it).

Finally, with regards to the shield hats that Fred and George make, I don't remember if we actually see what their limits are, but presumably they were wearing them, and an explosion was able to do enough damage to overwhelm whatever protection they gave and kill Fred in canon.

I suspect the most effect ways of defending against bullets would be either conjuring/transfiguring a brick wall to use as cover, or using a more specialized spell that causes bullets to deviate and miss (something like a magnet for lead or whatever). However, that requires actually knowing about guns, considering them enough of a threat to take precautions against them, and getting the spell up prior to being shot. That or be overwhelmingly powerful on the level of Dumbledore/Voldemort.

Though really, this all comes down to the fact that the actual strength of magic and spells like the shield charms is so nebulous in canon that you could interpret them any way you want and have it at least plausibly canon compliant, so basically any strength of shield charm you want works.
 
I have no real opinion whether guns should be able to counter HP shields, but I don't think "shields can't block bullets because they have too much energy" is a good line of logic.

Bullets don't have too much energy. You can tell because you don't get sent flying when your shoot one. If it were about energy, a person running face-first into a shield charm would deliver much more energy than a bullet. Heck, a professional boxer's punch carries 700-1000 joules. A bullet with a mass of 9.5g at a speed of 300m/s (not unusual for a glock bullet) would have 427.5 joules, around half of a punch.
 
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Just my 2c on guns and magic. This has been headcannon for me since watching BTVS. My thoughts have been that any BTVS mage of sufficient skill can do these three things;
1. Make a reverse inertia ward for themselves, which protects from bullets. And can usually be on at all times (The faster an object is, the more it is affected, supersonic objects just stop entirely)
2. Use enough telekinesis to send gernades back to thrower. Or a range attack that destroys the grenade without setting it off. (Cone attack like freezing, web. Basic flame too, but that set off most explosives anyway)
3. Do 'gust of wind' which protects from area of effect gas attacks. (Bubble head or other air breathing spells too. But that wouldn't protect from skin contact gasses)

Just these three spells and some ability to keep their wits when attacked to do 2 and 3, and the mage is a hard target to modern weaponry. A guy with a knife can still surprise the mage, or calling a missile strike or rocket launcher, or using a lazer, or surprise tazer. But unless the mage or gunman specially prepare for eachother, a straight fight between an average gunman and a average mage comes down to who is more skilled and prepared for violence.
 
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Make a reverse inertia ward for themselves, which protects from most bullets. And can usually be on at all times (The faster an object is, the more it is affected, supersonic objects just stop entirely)

I always imagine a scene in my mind where a small child is bounced backwards when they come charging their parents legs. Inverted inertia was always a favorite prank of mine, being a DnD Wizard of many sessions. So many uses of it when you get creative.

Cast on the latrine...

Edit: to make my post actually match the current conversation, flashbangs are wondrous things. Shield don't stop light(else the Wizard would be in the dark) nor do they stop sound. Seems like an easy way to break concentration to me.
 
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I always imagine a scene in my mind where a small child is bounced backwards when they come charging their parents legs. Inverted inertia was always a favorite prank of mine, being a DnD Wizard of many sessions. So many uses of it when you get creative.

Cast on the latrine...
I always liked the classic of 'barrel of monkeys in a expanded pouch' attack
 
I always imagine a scene in my mind where a small child is bounced backwards when they come charging their parents legs. Inverted inertia was always a favorite prank of mine, being a DnD Wizard of many sessions. So many uses of it when you get creative.

Cast on the latrine...

Edit: to make my post actually match the current conversation, flashbangs are wondrous things. Shield don't stop light(else the Wizard would be in the dark) nor do they stop sound. Seems like an easy way to break concentration to me.

I am assuming that it can be modified so that it only really affect supersonic objects, won't even be noticed until it catches the bullets in-flight. Also that flashbang would be covered by #2. And before anything about hitting a small target quickly; my counter is line-of-sight for telekinesis, or a cone attack for the range spell. Don't need a lot of accuracy when throwing horseshoes is my thinking.
 
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I don't think "shields can't block bullets because they have too much energy" is a good line of logic.
I agree. I think a better line of logic if an author wants shield charms to not be able to stand up to modern weapons is to simply introduce an arbitrary hit count. Say a shield charm will stop 7 or 12 (those being magic numbers) hits of any strength and then fade. Weird arbitrary limits seem much more magical than a magic shield adhering to physics.
 
Guys, I think you are all forgetting a major point that renders most of this argument pointless. You can't use a shield to stop something you don't know is coming. Also according to Canon most adult wizards can't cast a shield charm. Also Protego is three syllables and that takes forever, if I shoot you before you speak you are still dead.

On the topic of a conceptual framework for magic, if the spells are conceptually based then technically they can't stop bullets. English wizards believe that Muggles are not a threat to them and could not harm them, ergo, Muggles weapons obviously can't harm them either. So, a shield that is cast with the concept of protection, from anything that can harm me, can't protect you from things you believe can't harm you.

This is the problem with conceptual frameworks, technically Moody should be able to cast a shield that stops everything and anything, however he has been influenced by the common perceptions surrounding spells and so his shields cannot stop the Unforgivables. Let me be clear here, this is only the case if the entire system of HP magic functions conceptually. Based on Canon and WOG from JK this is not the case, or at least not the case for most of it.
 
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To throw my two cents in the ring. Even if a shield was conceptual and even if everyone could cast one, they still cannot be cast in perpetuity eventually they would fall because it would be too tiresome mentally to hold it up.
 
then I don't see how Magicals were getting regularly killed by angry peasants (presumably during active witch hunts, learning how to protect yourself is a high priority, so they should know how to do it).
Presumably, they just don't, they cast a charm on their house and peasant ignore it to find some poor peasant girl instead to burn.
 
Well, conceptual nature of magic can work both ways in this case.
Like collective belief of humanity in deadlines of firearms leading to bullets having 'conceptual weight' that can strain magical shields.
 
Honestly, adult wizards are stupid as hell if they can learn the shield and haven't done so.

Just in the lifespan of half the Wizengamot, they've had Grindie, Voldemort, (twice even) and that in Britain alone, not counting any other Dark Lords elsewhere.

If fighting is breaking out every time you turn around, not knowing how to defend yourself is Darwin award worthy.

"Hey, I live on the side of an active volcano. What do I do? I run a gas station."
 
Well, conceptual nature of magic can work both ways in this case.
Like collective belief of humanity in deadlines of firearms leading to bullets having 'conceptual weight' that can strain magical shields.
Ah, that is a good point. However, then we have to ask if the collective belief of non-magicals count when determining conceptual weight. If magic is required to imprint concepts onto the fabric of reality then only muggleborn would have any effect, and as we have seen in Canon even muggleborn succumb to the idea that regular people are inferior in some way because they lack magic. Hermione is a prime example of this.
 
Are we playing Mage now? Is that how Harry Potter magic works? The power of belief? We have a reality based solely on everyone being convinced reality works that way? When enough people were convinced the moon was cheese, it actually was cheese, but now it's made of rocks because of a good PR campaign? And if we could convince enough people that space was actually aether again, it would turn back into aether?

Have I made my point with enough Socratic rhetorical questions yet?
 
Are we playing Mage now? Is that how Harry Potter magic works? The power of belief? We have a reality based solely on everyone being convinced reality works that way? When enough people were convinced the moon was cheese, it actually was cheese, but now it's made of rocks because of a good PR campaign? And if we could convince enough people that space was actually aether again, it would turn back into aether?

Have I made my point with enough Socratic rhetorical questions yet?
I blame democracy. People get so used to the idea of being able to change their government by mass opinion if they believe it should be different, they start thinking they can change physics by mass opinion if they believe it should be different. ;)
 
hrnn, I've always felt that Guns and wands are about equal in a fight in and of themselves. Both having roughly the same over all use mannerisms, drawing speeds, and firing speeds in trained hands. So really, I've always figured that, other than differences in the users, it came down to what was being used, and almost always spells have a vastly slowly projectile speed or 'deployment' speed in the case of non-projectile magic.

on top of that, I always figured shield spells could stop anything they covered, under 2 caveats. One, they have enough power/specialization put into them to actually hold up, and Two, that they're fully deployed in time to catch the offending whatever.

Combine these and it came down to " yeah, they can draw just as fast as each other, but the bullet's already there before the shield is up " even if the shield can stop them

I think this falls in line with how Fencer's taking directions, and even if I'm wrong? I don't care. His story, and it's great either way so far, so I'm looking forward to further things period xD

.... and no i have no idea why I decided to step in and voice any of this. random ADHD compulsion go~

looking forward to more chapters when the muse/time allows Fencer! stay safe man!
 
On guns, again, the witch hunts would have been taking place in the days of muzzle loaders. Yes I'd agree if you can get a shield charm between the magical and the gun, they can tank a single shot with only a bit more difficulty than the average spell. In the days of muzzle loaders this buys you all the time needed to then fire back multiple times before the gun can be reloaded.
Depending on range, the thing about guns is a timing thing rather than a power thing. Can I draw and shoot you faster than you can draw and defend yourself. If a wizard has time to cast something, they win, if they are prepared for an opponent with guns. Anything from transfiguration (you're holding a daffodil, or i now have a granite wall in front of me), to charms (fire suppression, aresto momentum, shield), or just transportation (portkey or apperition).

The timing bit is really important though, as the gun will always be fractionally faster than the spell, simply because it is pure muscle memory, and reactions are faster than thought.

The second thing is that protective items are there to buy the caster time to start using spells.

The reason that modern firearms would win in a war, is range. I can kill you from a mile away, and you can't even see me yet. Or I don't have to hit you, just within a few meters of you, and you die.

Honestly, as a wizard, I'd be more worried about lasers than firearms. As you can't block visible light, and still function effectively in a fight. A 100mw laser will blind someone almost instantly. An off the shelf 0.5mw laser pointer will dazzle someone.
 
Are we playing Mage now? Is that how Harry Potter magic works? The power of belief? We have a reality based solely on everyone being convinced reality works that way? When enough people were convinced the moon was cheese, it actually was cheese, but now it's made of rocks because of a good PR campaign? And if we could convince enough people that space was actually aether again, it would turn back into aether?

Have I made my point with enough Socratic rhetorical questions yet?
In response I say this; we only have the US Government's word the moon is not cheese. Also, you are correct that Mage does rely on collective belief, but several other universes use it for their magic systems too. Honestly, I totally didn't think of Mage when I brought it up. I was connecting it more to Kabbalah and some of the more fluid magic systems that exist. The Inheritance Cycle's magic system is collective belief forced into a language by the first people to use it.
 
Didn't Protego Maxima straight up disintegrate people in the movies? Or am I misremembering something?

Also, Harry Potter spells are do or do not kind of thing when it comes to casting for the most part. Any extra strength from casting most spells is almost always fanon if you've got the wand best for you. The reason Voldemort fears Dumbledore is his sheer amount of spells that he can bring to to a fight and the speed of which he casts.

A spell does what it says on the tin after all.
 
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