Harry Potter and the Skittering Spouse

Which might well leave an even deeper mark on Dumbledore than simply killing defeating his former lover in a duel.
It's easy to overlook, but I'd like to point out that Dumbledore isn't even sure which of the two (himself or Grindelwald) actually cast the Killing Curse that killed his sister. So not only was Dumbledore a wizard supremacist, he was also throwing around unforgivable curses.

Not once did he claim to disagree with Grindelwald's views on muggles, only his methods.
 
Frank talk, wizarding britain for all we like to mock and throw stones is just an exaggeration of real people. Very few people want to go out and fight. Even when they know it's their best bet. The problem is they hold onto this even in times of exceptional threats when most cultures push past it long enough to rise up in response. And were getting half this from Taylor's perspective. Taylor who would spit in the face of death for the chance to save one girl she inadvertently condemned. Who stabbed a living natural disaster to buy noncombatants an extra couple of seconds and the hope of rescue. Taylor is just wired differently. She's uncompromising, she defiant, she's stubborn enough to know there is little to no hope of saving the world and march out to fight regardless, because in her mind it's the only option.

The average attitude of wizard Britain? It's anathema to her. Forget tech levels, forget the victorian culture and dress, this is the real culture shock for Taylor.
In Harry Potter, honestly the British wizards make no sense to me. They are all cowards, to the very last. Which is odd considering just what the British were liek during WW2, shrugging off bombings and such, mostly out of spite. I get it was a front and they coped with gallows humor but they took the hits and stood firm. Harry Potter as a series shows none of this culture. Yes, I get the magical world might as well be a Separate world but still.
The British wizards have one major problem that stops them from acting sensibly. They are adults in book series for children/YA. Thus they have to be incapable of solving the problems, because if they did, the child/teen MC and friends would have nothing to do and we wouldn't have the book series.

It's not the most satisfactory answer to a world building question, but it's probably the only one that makes sense.
Personally, I think the British adult wizards in any fanfiction should follow the same reasoning and be exactly as involved and competent as is needed by the narrative.

Harry Potter's society isn't a deliberate exaggeration, or supposed to represent the real British, or simply shrugged off by the author as 'just for kids'. It is an actual reflection of society as imagined by Rowling.

I know it's been said jokingly that Harry Potter is Neoliberal Theory, but it actually is.

Yes, in reality, people will switch from passiveness to seething hatred and unrelenting opposition once actually attacked, as we can see in Ukrainian attitudes toward Russia recently, but Harry Potter is not the real world, it's operating on the modern first world order forever, even in the middle of a war.

The nihilistic indifference, sweeping everything under the rug, and lack of coming together for solutions to catastrophic problems isn't an accident, it's the system working as designed.

The best and most hilarious part is that Rowling didn't even know she wrote it like this because she wasn't thinking about it, she went from the heart and put perhaps the best and most accurate fictional version of modern politics made in this century down on paper.

It's beautiful really.
 
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It's easy to overlook, but I'd like to point out that Dumbledore isn't even sure which of the two (himself or Grindelwald) actually cast the Killing Curse that killed his sister. So not only was Dumbledore a wizard supremacist, he was also throwing around unforgivable curses.

Not once did he claim to disagree with Grindelwald's views on muggles, only his methods.
Citation needed. Ariana's death is always referred to as due to a "curse", I don't remember the word 'unforgivable' ever entering in to it.

But, yes, the fact that Dumbledore (may have) cast the curse that killed her himself was central to his guilt.
edit: ...and his guilt was central to his overall character.
 
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Albus Dumbledore can be summed up rather simply in a way, he's a teacher at his core. He is not a soldier, he is not a mastermind, he is not a general. He is merely a teacher with a lot of power behind him, who then had a ton of responsibilities and positions forced on him after reluctantly fighting and beating Grindelwald, who he then put into prison rather than kill, because Killing is something that he simply will not do unless pushed to that, which no one is willing to do because he's got a strong reputation along with personal power.

He is a man who likes to believe in the best in people. He is a good man, but not a man mentally built for war. It's why he kept pushing Newt and others to fight instead because he does not want to fight. His actions concerning placing Harry with his relatives, he honestly thought that Petunia would put aside her resentment and properly raise Harry, obviously, he was wrong, and he likely would've done something about it had Harry spoken up sooner about it, but Harry, not wanting to trouble others with his issues, never told anyone until it was too late to do anything about it.

In a way, Harry's shitty home situation can be considered a mistake on both Albus' and Harry's parts. Albus for his naivety and constantly wanting to see the best in people, and Harry for not saying anything, oh sure there was his malnourished body, but Albus, for all his talents, ain't a healer, the Hogwarts uniforms certainly don't help matters.

Harry's malnourishment not coming out could also be Pomprfy's fault as well, with her not saying anything in a misguided attempt to try not to burden Harry with more emotional trauma, when she REALLY should've talked to him about it, or perhaps just how archaic the wizarding world is.
 
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Except all the muggles on the news. And the fact these are the same guys that canonically caused a noticeable dip in the population 10 years before.
Population dip is fanon. Although a reasonable assumption we never really learn by how much or even if it occurred. Rowling is so bad at math in the books that we can't even say whether Harry's class of like forty is normal or not.

We do hear about a couple of attacks in the news but nothing particularly widespread and nothing past the takeover. It's portrayed as a cold war slowly turning hot with a lot of posturing in book six. Death Eaters are being treated as minor terrorists who are doing stuff but things aren't out of control.

Later on it's a reasonable assumption that the fact that they're gathering up muggleborn, taking their wands, and escalating to death camps but we're never actually shown or directly told about it. It's why I err on the side of the Order not necessarily pulling punches and the Death Eaters being just as bad as the Nazis they're meant to mirror.

This is a reasonable consideration, but is no reason not to try. If nothing else complete immolation is an option and frankly removing all his limbs and taking him hostage might actually have been better than killing him.
Yep! Dumbledore outright implies this in said fight. Something along the lines of "there are far worse things than death that can be done to you Tom". Dumbledore also had the power to maybe capture him which could kill the Death Eater cause in its crib.

If he somehow immolated the dude? I bet we see a new Tom within a couple months and Fudge still in charge saying "problem solved".

Dumbledore talks a lot about forgiveness being admirable. He's a mostly kind dude with a lot of titles that I'm not sure have actual power behind them (he sure gets bullied out of several of them more easily than he should if he is as absolutely powerful as claimed). But do remember how savage he was to Severus when he came begging for Dumbledore to save Lily.

It isn't that Dumbledore refuses to allow others to kill in self defense. It's just that he himself is so powerful that he need not do so to achieve his goals.
He still nearly got Katie Bell killed and used the imperious curse to do it. If nothing else that should have been the breaking point for that idiocy. But Snape was sworn to help Draco and Dumbledore wanted to keep Snape. Draco could have done a lot of damage if his attempts were more reckless and Dumbledore didn't even keep him under observation.
The Katie thing wasn't easy to tie to Draco unless you knew exactly what Harry did though and he wasn't very good at explaining why it wasn't just another Death Eater random attack instead. But even if they'd known? Dumbledore was dying and it's pretty clear that Wizarding Britain was willing to kowtow to the Wizarding Nazi regime the second he did.

Him ensuring Snape was in charge of Hogwarts by risking some lives was probably a good thing. Imagine if someone else had been allowed to be in charge. Snape never once so much as hinted that he was sexually inappropriate with students nor did he seem like he'd allow that sort of thing occur under his watch. The kids were mistreated but mostly safe.

But yeah, HBP had everyone wearing the dunce cap. Remember Hermione and Ron insisting that Draco "you'll be next mudbloods" Malfoy couldn't possibly be a marked Death Eater with nefarious plans? Jdub farms remembers.

Really just makes your argument better, and lends credence to the fanbase 'never killing anyone, not even magic Hitler' sentiment. Which does ignore how much he'd really rather not given their very personal history, but if there's one person you kill, it's your version of Hitler.

Meh, school teacher helps defeat and permanently imprison his ex lover due to complicated feelings. Presumably the duel wasn't Dumbledore just throwing non lethal stuff at the guy. I'm not sure I would be able to kill him in cold blood either if I had beaten him to the point where he couldn't fight back.
 
Albus Dumbledore can be summed up rather simply in a way, he's a teacher at his core. He is not a soldier, he is not a mastermind, he is not a general. He is merely a teacher with a lot of power behind him, who then had a ton of responsibilities and positions forced on him after reluctantly fighting and beating Grindelwald, who he then put into prison rather than kill, because Killing is something that he simply will not do unless pushed to that, which no one is willing to do because he's got a strong reputation along with personal power.

He is a man who likes to believe in the best in people. He is a good man, but not a man mentally built for war. It's why he kept pushing Newt and others to fight instead because he does not want to fight. His actions concerning placing Harry with his relatives, he honestly thought that Petunia would put aside her resentment and properly raise Harry, obviously, he was wrong, and he likely would've done something about it had Harry spoken up sooner about it, but Harry, not wanting to trouble others with his issues, never told anyone until it was too late to do anything about it.

In a way, Harry's shitty home situation can be considered a mistake on both Albus' and Harry's parts. Albus for his naivety and constantly wanting to see the best in people, and Harry for not saying anything, oh sure there was his malnourished body, but Albus, for all his talents, ain't a healer, the Hogwarts uniforms certainly don't help matters.

Harry's malnourishment not coming out could also be Pomprfy's fault as well, with her not saying anything in a misguided attempt to try not to burden Harry with more emotional trauma, when she REALLY should've talked to him about it, or perhaps just how archaic the wizarding world is.
I feel like I've had this debate before. Repeatedly in fact, and I'm still incredibly unimpressed with this stance for a number of reason. Allowing Umbridge to torture students. Taking leadership of the resistance despite being ill suited for it. Enabling Snape. Not closing the school during the chamber of secrets incident. Not locking all the kids inside the school until the government took away the literal soul sucking demons after they swarmed a school sporting event. Admitting he knew Harry was in for dark years with the Dursley's, not investigating a rather spectacular bout of accidental magic involving an attack against a relative. His spy who lived on the same street who should have seen some of the signs. Not curtailing bullying and bigotry in the school for which he is responsible. Utter unwillingness to share critical information with fucking anyone and the manufacturing of the ridiculous clues Harry and friends have to follow in book seven which could have failed at any time for any number of reasons. And if not for plot contrived nonsense wouldn't have even explained the hollows as a myth let alone whatever power they may or may not hold when brought together.

I like and appreciate that the man is a flawed character. As a writer and reader it's the mark of a good series. That in no way makes up for the incredible amount of shit I can at least partially attribute to him. Just like it wouldn't in the real world.

I'm incredibly ADD and easily distracted, that doesn't mean the federal government will give me a break if I'm late with my taxes, as just one rather mild example.
 
There is one other thing that's a big issue that doesn't just apply to Dumbledore, but the Wizarding world as a whole it seems like, and its that there seems to be a severe lack of competence in many areas. Like we know that Dumbledore had a spy on Privet Drive, but it seems like said spy had the same problem everyone else did in the series except the main cast and a few other exceptions.

Hell for all that the death eaters freely kill people, they ain't exactly competent either with the exception of the inner circle, oh wait, Bellatrix got killed by a woman who was lacking in combat training. The only competent people were Dumbledore and a portion of the Order, the Golden Trio, Voldemort, Wormtail and Barty Crouch Jr, and apparently Amelia Bones from what we hear.

Everyone else is so inconsistent that their competence must be questioned.
 
Yeah, there's being a flawed character that makes mistakes, and then there's being responsible for an absolute mountain of problems that should not have been even a question if one was doing their job properly. I find that Wizarding Britain as a whole, not just Dumbledore, tends towards the latter. It makes me wonder if that's just a writing issue or if there's just something fundamentally wrong about the wizarding world that makes it all possible, that just never gets addressed in the series.
 
I mean, I understand sometimes derails happen but I think we're debating about HP in general and not about the story?
 
I also don't like the 'forced into power' arguments. If he couldn't handle three full-time jobs, he should easily be able to defer the two, or one, he'd prefer. I know he's lost at least two of them, only to regain them. Though one was the headmaster position he definitely wanted, and I can't remember if the other was Chief Warlock or Supreme Mugwump... I think SM of the ICW, but it's been quite a few years since I read the books, and it could very well have been all three at different points.

If nothing else, all that clout that'd get him 'forced' should be just as easy to offload onto his preferred candidate, if it was a "can't let the dark/evil get those seats" problem.
 
I feel like I've had this debate before. Repeatedly in fact, and I'm still incredibly unimpressed with this stance for a number of reason. Allowing Umbridge to torture students. Taking leadership of the resistance despite being ill suited for it. Enabling Snape. Not closing the school during the chamber of secrets incident. Not locking all the kids inside the school until the government took away the literal soul sucking demons after they swarmed a school sporting event. Admitting he knew Harry was in for dark years with the Dursley's, not investigating a rather spectacular bout of accidental magic involving an attack against a relative. His spy who lived on the same street who should have seen some of the signs. Not curtailing bullying and bigotry in the school for which he is responsible. Utter unwillingness to share critical information with fucking anyone and the manufacturing of the ridiculous clues Harry and friends have to follow in book seven which could have failed at any time for any number of reasons. And if not for plot contrived nonsense wouldn't have even explained the hollows as a myth let alone whatever power they may or may not hold when brought together.

I like and appreciate that the man is a flawed character. As a writer and reader it's the mark of a good series. That in no way makes up for the incredible amount of shit I can at least partially attribute to him. Just like it wouldn't in the real world.

I'm incredibly ADD and easily distracted, that doesn't mean the federal government will give me a break if I'm late with my taxes, as just one rather mild example.

Like I said before, it is way way to easy to make Dumbles look bad without changing a thing. He was clearly intended to be a benevolent, wise old mentor wizard but the total lack of common sense means you can swing wildly between total idiot and evil bastard really easily.

I cant remember the story it was in but one of the best interpretations I remember reading was they leaned into how old Dumbledore is. He was born in 1881. The way they treated kids back then was VERY different to what we consider appropriate today and they showed him to be basically just confused why the Dursleys being a "bit harsh" was a big deal and its totally normal for the boys to sort out "problems" between themselves.
 
I also don't like the 'forced into power' arguments. If he couldn't handle three full-time jobs, he should easily be able to defer the two, or one, he'd prefer. I know he's lost at least two of them, only to regain them. Though one was the headmaster position he definitely wanted, and I can't remember if the other was Chief Warlock or Supreme Mugwump... I think SM of the ICW, but it's been quite a few years since I read the books, and it could very well have been all three at different points.

If nothing else, all that clout that'd get him 'forced' should be just as easy to offload onto his preferred candidate, if it was a "can't let the dark/evil get those seats" problem.
That would require there to be at least one competent politician on Dumbledore's side (who isn't already doing an irreplaceable job) to defer the political roles onto.

Which shouldn't be hard, but I can't name one.
 
Yeah, there's being a flawed character that makes mistakes, and then there's being responsible for an absolute mountain of problems that should not have been even a question if one was doing their job properly. I find that Wizarding Britain as a whole, not just Dumbledore, tends towards the latter. It makes me wonder if that's just a writing issue or if there's just something fundamentally wrong about the wizarding world that makes it all possible, that just never gets addressed in the series.

The problem in canon, and the issue Taylor is going to have to deal with is that the wizarding world under the guidance of Dumbledore is the unwillingness to kill even when confronted by killers. Taylor knows you have to not only match your enemies but take things up a notch to win, but the order of Phoenix, the aurors, etc. are just tossing around kiddy curses instead of doing what needs to be done. No one wants to fight a war, but once you start you have to be willing to do unto others before they can do unto you. Whether he is ultimately a good idiot or a secret dark lord, Dumbledore handicaps everyone fighting Voldemort due to his sister issues.
 
I mean, I understand sometimes derails happen but I think we're debating about HP in general and not about the story?
You're not incorrect but it's relevant to myself and others because I've yet to give Dumbledore any serious characterization in story and I fully expect I'll lose readers once I do. If only because opinions on the man are so varied and decisive that I can't write a story involving him without pissing off someone.

Frankly we should all just give up on this argument because after this long we've all picked a stance and while I'm willing to concede point here and there a lot of people are not and even conceding a few points doesn't change my overall opinion much if any.

Slight subject change. Snape promised to watch over Malfoy as best he could. If Malfoy dies is snape free of that vow?
 
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Looking for competent adults in Harry Potter is an exercise in frustration because competent adults would ensure safety of children. Safe children means no deadly adventures of excitement. No dragons, no basilisks, no werewolves, no murderers. Instead you get social bullying, and aggressive romance attempts.

You need to choose between teenager protagonists to relate to or competent adults.
 
Like I said before, it is way way to easy to make Dumbles look bad without changing a thing. He was clearly intended to be a benevolent, wise old mentor wizard but the total lack of common sense means you can swing wildly between total idiot and evil bastard really easily.

I cant remember the story it was in but one of the best interpretations I remember reading was they leaned into how old Dumbledore is. He was born in 1881. The way they treated kids back then was VERY different to what we consider appropriate today and they showed him to be basically just confused why the Dursleys being a "bit harsh" was a big deal and its totally normal for the boys to sort out "problems" between themselves.
Want to know something horrible that might sour your opinions on human decency?

What occurred at the Dursleys behind closed doors was barely actionable (on paper) at the time the books were set in. And, in practice, wasn't something that the authorities would step in about in the UK. Child protection laws have evolved a lot since the early nineties.

Dudley beating on him? Boys will be boys.
The cupboard? Petty, but it fit a mattress in it.
Doing all the chores? Gotta earn his keep.
Over sized hand-me-downs from Dudley? Still clothes.
Limited meals? Kid wasn't starved just given crappy food.

Edit: Snape's vow would require him to follow through with finishing Draco's task for him if he disappeared. But I don't see Draco dying in ways Snape can't directly intervene in as breaking it.
 
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Taylor could kill Draco before anyone can stop her, and I can't see Snape being able to convince or threaten her into letting him endanger students at Hogwarts. She's got a bit of thing with teachers not protecting their students, you see, and woe betide anyone who sets her off.
 
Snape may still be oath sworn to kill Dumbledore given the wording is that he'll do it if it looks like Draco can't….. and then there's the whole question of if he'll swear vengeance which is possible…
 
Snape may still be oath sworn to kill Dumbledore given the wording is that he'll do it if it looks like Draco can't….. and then there's the whole question of if he'll swear vengeance which is possible…
Snape never seemed involved with Draco beyond using him as a petty tool to abuse Harry with. The only reason he swore the vow in the first place was because he was ordered to. So, depends on how you characterize the guy? I personally don't think he cared about the students beyond the bare basics so swearing vengeance seems off.

Draco was meant to fail anyway so it's not like Voldemort would punish Snape for not helping. Especially if he ends up killing Dumbledore again.

Edit: Also depends on how Draco dies. If Taylor just offs him and makes it look like he ran away there's not much Snape can do.
 
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Slight subject change. Snape promised to watch over Malfoy as best he could. If Malfoy dies is snape free of that vow?
Only if his death is in such a way Snape was blindsided by it

Pretty much this, but yes if Draco dies as long as Snape couldn't knowingly help protect him from dying he'd be free of the Oath in my eyes since the oath was to act to complete the task. From what I remember Draco purposely doesn't request Snape's help at all during the year. So Snape is not actually 100% sure of the task he was meant to do. He and Dumbledore guess it's to kill Albus, correctly, but the uncertainty leaves room in my mind.

Snape may still be oath sworn to kill Dumbledore given the wording is that he'll do it if it looks like Draco can't….. and then there's the whole question of if he'll swear vengeance which is possible…

Debatable, and ultimately it's up to you how to handle it. But the oath was to do the task of killing Dumbledore if Draco proved unable to at the time of it occurring if I remember correctly. Draco never even attempting it due to being dead, in my mind leaves Snape a shit ton of wiggle room. He might still need to kill Dumbledore, but when that is necessary is now open to his choice. He could do it years down the line when Dumbledore is legitimately dying of old age. So yeah it's up to you on how to play it.
 
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He might still need to kill Dumbledore, but when that is necessary is now open to his choice. He could do it years down the line when Dumbledore is legitimately dying of old age. So yeah it's up to you on how to play it.

Brew some very slow acting poison that takes years to kill the victim but for which there is no counter. Dumbledore would count as "killed" but still live long enough that a natural death might happen sooner.
 
Not that him killing Dumbledore is necessary anyway since he is going to drop dead from the ring curse soon after his canon death in any case.
 
It's also possible that Draco won't be asked to target Albus in this timeline. After all, there's this sudden and unexpected new variable, one that everybody knows about, in the form of Taylor. Much better to sick the Malfoy heir on the 'Lady Potter' than to target an old man who Draco couldn't kill anyway...
 
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