Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I mean, honestly? "I spoke to Mab as anything but a supplicant and didn't walk out hip deep in Debt" is already a great win. It's one of those contests where even losing is fine as long as you walk out with your clothes intact.
And the QM said that it was "Social Combat with an Incarna level being", that's the kind of thing you get lots of XP just for engaging in, win or lose. And I didn't see Molly get more than a modest spanking, proverbially speaking.
And the QM said that it was "Social Combat with an Incarna level being", that's the kind of thing you get lots of XP just for engaging in, win or lose. And I didn't see Molly get more than a modest spanking, proverbially speaking.
This is not about Mab winning at any cost, it's about managing the price needed for getting the things we want.
Our primary goals when coming into this were, as I understand them and in no particular order, to:
- Stop the ritual
- Stop Harry from getting screwed
- Get Lydia off the hook
- Avoid getting Molly on the hook
With sub goals of:
- Getting Matthews out
- Saving Arawn
Our complications were:
- Harry being in debt to Mab, and obligated to get her involved
- Lydia being a recruitment target
- Molly being a minor issue and target of opportunity for fey entanglement
- Matthews being on the shit list of the Thule society and (shortly) the white council
- Arawn being a traitor and target for revenge
Note how many of those are already tied up in winter, and that at least one would definitely bring Mab into the equation even if she couldn't pop in on her own.
Mab has promised nothing that's true, but she's unlikely to randomly lash out; that exchange where she talked about initiative is where she was most likely to do something to Harry if she was going to.
Doing things this way has every indication of actually meeting our goals for longer than it will take for Mab to catch up with them again, even if being a totem spirit isn't exactly ideal. She's only turning to deal with us because she's done managing the situation at hand, which it looks like she's accepting.
Not resolving Winter's interest left the ledger open and worsened the situation for everyone who's name was already on the page.
By what measure is this a failure?
Edit: didn't mean to leave Arawn of the complications list.
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Dragon blooded martial artists can get conceptually perfect attacks and defences and spirit killers.
She'd go down. She's simply not very impressive in one on one combat compared to a combat focused Exalt. We saw what she could do. An Immaculate Grandmaster would thrash her based on that performance.
The White Council can throw a lot of magic around but they're a very unfocused instrument. The White Council as a whole isn't Voltron. Their power isn't additive in personal combat. Mab can probably just kill them one by one if she gets close because individually they're no match for her or counter any ritual magic they try. They're all individually only human with human reflexes and abilities. An exalt focuses their power much, much better 1 v1.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Not in ExWoD, Perfect effects just don't exist anymore, and even in the original material, most of their "Perfect Attacks" and "Spirit Killers" had strict limitations that tended to fall apart against opponents that actually mattered, or were tied in with the Immaculate Dragon Styles which are long lost in this timeline and also were masterworks from the very best Sidereal Martial Artists making the conceptually most perfect fighting styles for Dragon Blooded warriors. Native 'Perfect' effects for Dragon Blooded tended to have details like "Fails against magical attacks" or "Kills the spirit but if it has a sanctum or any worship it'll still respawn later". The only genuine absolute Spirit Killing arts they have tended to be capstones of the Dragon Styles, or at least high enough in those fields that only the greatest paragons have access to it. (Remember, Rules as Intended, anyone above Essence 3 who isn't 100+ years old is extremely talented and nearly protagonist level. That it's hypothetically possible to build someone to achieve that level quickly is because player characters don't operate under the same rules as NPCs)
More importantly, Wizards are gods of preptime, any fair contest that isn't intended as a complete stomp requires them to have access to at least their basic level contingencies that they'd have in play during a meeting with their peers, which--given as this is the most dangerous time for them--are going to be significant, doubly so as they're going to only meet in a place that's a veritable fortress against just this kind of gatecrashing. That Mab can robust through it anyway if sufficiently motivated boils down to 'She's probably in the top five or so beings in the setting who can actually operate on a level that doesn't break it'.
EDIT: On a review, Solaroids still get Perfect Defenses in ExWoD, but it's a significant investment of power on their part and not really something that trickles down to the Dragon Blooded level.
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You've chosen to negotiate with a worse than empty hand.
You've already given Mab part of what she wants for nothing, a new dog to hunt necromancers for her, and you gave that to her for free, having extracted no price from her. Indeed, she's almost certainly making Matthews have to pay for something that she would have had to do anyway to keep him useful, protecting him from Summer.
By standing by and watching Harry break his deal with Mab, he's now in a worse position than he was to start with. Not only hasn't he cleared a favour but now she has an extra hold over him because of his betrayal, and that could be even worse than the orginal favour.
Because we chose to social-fu Arawn to stay, he's been incapacitated and also didn't get the chance to evacuate Lydia, so she's now in danger from Mab either social-fu-ing her or simply grabbing her on the way out, given that feudal style oaths the fey are likely to use are likely to have at least some hereditary components to give Mab an excuse.
Molly has also exposed her self to and chosen to put herself into a disadvantaged position versus Mab's social-fu.
You've manufactured a scenario where Mab has every advantage. There are hostages present that she can use as leverage, and we have nothing to offer save Molly's own servitude.
This is cutting losses time. Mab has won, there's nothing we can do to stop her taking Matthews and Lydia (and then spiritually vivisecting her to track, summon and/or curse Arawn if she pleases, or hunting him down through other means), making Dresden even more of her bitch with the extra control she has over him thanks to his betrayal, if she doesn't simply take him as well.
Molly has an empty hand, her only chip is herself, and she does up against a much better player. The only way to win was not to play, but as it's too late for that we need to prioritise Molly herself getting out without being oathbound to Mab.
This is largely because of the focus on just giving Mab a win. Because we just gave it to her, she doesn't owe us anything for it, and can just pocket it and move on to take the rest of what she wants. Worse, everyone is maximally exposed to whatever she'll that happens to be, as they're either right here or incapable of action. We've eliminated all our leverage and given everything to her.
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[J] Look at Mab's shoes. Ask "what does the wearer of these shoes know of my exaltation". Tell Mab "I will take your offer under advisement."
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- Location
- Germany
It's always the shoes.
Mab, Lydia even Lash.
Molly pays a lot of attention to shoes?
Mab, Lydia even Lash.
Molly pays a lot of attention to shoes?
Amusingly, this should actually work. I'm up for it. It gives us a win as well, and hopefully this is a new scene from the ritual so we can get essence from it.
[X] Look at Mab's shoes. Ask "what does the wearer of these shoes know of my exaltation". Tell Mab "I will take your offer under advisement."
Mab didn't seem to notice the name of a Neverborn written on the floor, I think. Also, for all she boasts of knowing more about our power, she doesn't seem to know of Usum or the Crown.
Still, that wasn't a very good showing, but Harry is off the hook, minus one debt, and we haven't committed to anything. Good enough, I think.
[X] Write in - "You are not summoned lightly Queen, even when you permit it. I will neither refuse or commit in this moment. I will consider and seek council, then decide."
Still, that wasn't a very good showing, but Harry is off the hook, minus one debt, and we haven't committed to anything. Good enough, I think.
[X] Write in - "You are not summoned lightly Queen, even when you permit it. I will neither refuse or commit in this moment. I will consider and seek council, then decide."
He has cleared the favor:
Remaining task. Not tasks. Singular, not plural. Harry had two debts going in. He has one now.
Mab doesn't have perfect defenses and White Council doesn't have spirit killing charms allowing them to kill immortals. Exalted have both. That's why they are an OCP grenade thrown into the setting. While I wouldn't bet on a dragonblooded (unless it's Scarlet Empress or someone similar) against Mab, an elder exalt would absolutely smash her face in in personal combat.
That's not true at all. We have tons of perfect effects that are OCP in the current setting. That's why Uriel is taking us so seriously. Our Crown is a perfect effect. We have options for perfect defenses aplenty. We have perfect mental defense already.
Mab might have perfect defenses, after all Katrina had a perfect attack, if a very limited one. But if she does she likely cannot spam it.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
Am I the only one who thought that went well?
We don't incur further enmity from like the fifth most powerful being in the setting, Harry gets one of his debts paid off, Lydia escapes without further obligations and Matthews gets protection from the White Council.
Ohh and we get a neat new plot hook.
[X] Yes, you will call on Mab and listen to what she has to say
Just say yes, an obligation to hear Mab out isn't the worst thing in the world.
We don't incur further enmity from like the fifth most powerful being in the setting, Harry gets one of his debts paid off, Lydia escapes without further obligations and Matthews gets protection from the White Council.
Ohh and we get a neat new plot hook.
[X] Yes, you will call on Mab and listen to what she has to say
Just say yes, an obligation to hear Mab out isn't the worst thing in the world.
COMMENTARY
Excellent work at portraying Mab as the in-universe worldshaking Power that she is.
It does a pretty good job of portraying the impact of being in the same room as the Queen of Air and Darkness and having her attention. That point where she asks Molly if she knows what the costs was an especially nice touch, and I still cant tell if she was being sincere, being manipulative or both.
Well done.
So Mathews has beef with Summer.
Of course he does. And its something bad enough/he's ashamed enough that he doesnt want to talk about it out loud. Yet it didnt show up on his Soulgaze with Dresden. We probably want to use the Crown on his wards to figure it out.
Lydia and Gard are being very quiet.
Lydia out of sheer terror, and Gard out of the motherlode of intel on capabilities that is falling into her lap. Arawn probably shut down and hid as soon as Mab showed up. Watching Exalted social combat up close must be a trip.
Gard is going to be justified at poking Molly for way underselling her capabilities.
It occurs to me that Dresden snarking is literally his only social defense when dealing with Mab, and to a lesser extent Lea.
Interject, interrupt and confuse. When all else fails attempt a stonewall with Willpower.
Else she simply rolls him over under 20-plus dice of Social.
Mab tempting Molly with Lore suggests she doesnt know enough about how our powers work.
Or she knows about the Crown of Eyes, how it works, and she's attempting to get Molly to burn her question on Mab.
We dont know.
Going to note that we used Etiquette through this, to avoid giving offense or making unintentional promises restricting us to 12 dice.
If we'd been able to use Empathy, we'd have had a dicepool of 14: Cha/Man3 + Empathy 3 + Excellency 6 + Stunt 2
Intimidation and an Excellency would have given us 16 dice: Cha/Man3 + Intimidation 4 + Excellency 7 + Stunt 2
Basically we need to raise Etiquette.
Yup.
Look at all the XP falling into our lap for surviving Mab
@DragonParadox
QUESTION
-Incarna-level. World of Darkness Incarna or Exalted Incarna?
Oh wow. These were a spectacular set of rolls.
Molly rolls 1 sux on DC8 for her initial Be Polite roll. Enough to succeed, not enough to gain special bonuses.
Mab opens her offensive with a social dice pool of 20, rolling 16 successes on DC6 to steamroller the opposition.
Molly defends with a dicepool of 12, getting 11 successes on a DC4; great because 5 successes or more is a Legendary success, enough to hold her own, but not enough to set the tone. Advantage Mab.
Molly then interrupts Mab with a 9 success roll on a DC6, pulling aggro off Dresden. Advantage Molly.
Mab comes back with a sneaky gambit, rolling 8 successes on a DC6 roll to get Molly to admit some sort of guilt.
Molly rolls 2 successes on a DC4 Perception roll, and misses it. Advantage Mab.
Mab then rolls 8 sux on a DC6 temptation roll, with lore as the bait, while Molly rolls 7 successes on DC4 to resist; close enough.
Mab does a final push, with 12 successes on a DC6.
Molly resists with 13 successes at DC4 on an Intimacy-boosted Willpower roll.
This is high level social combat, with mostly base dice pools in play.
Mab was throwing around a dicepool of 18-20 dice for most of that engagement, which compares favorably with Exalted2E's baseline of 18-25 dice for a 3CD IIRC. Meantime Molly's dicepool was in the 12 dice range, occasionally 9, with her making things up with lower DCs.
Both sides were regularly hitting Legendary rolls.
Pleasure to read.
========
What have we learned?
1)When it comes to Mab, believe the hype.
2) Dresden has somewhat more reason to freak out at watching a 17 year old hold her own in a social arena against the Queen of Air and Darkness. And somewhat more appreciation for the emergent realworld capabilities of the USS Godkiller, Captain Molly Carpenter commanding.
3)Gard and Lydia know damn well when to keep their mouths shut.
4)We need more Etiquette.
Mab shrugged off the Eye of Balor in Battlegrounds.
Damn right she has perfect defenses.
I disagree with most of your views on things here. You have a few points, but I don't view it as reasonable to suggest there was a situation where we could have done all this that didn't end with Mab rolling up and asking for her pound of flesh.
The moment Harry was involved she had a lien on this, and he couldn't give up on the job. I'm not sure we could have gotten all the information and finished the right in time to solve this without him.
Where would we be if the necromancers had gotten closer to the finish line because we were screwing around, and Mab showed up in the aftermath of that?
Our leverage is what it always was going to be; Is the profit worth the trouble?
Mab wouldn't be looking for a deal on exalted knowledge if she was interested in pressing for the whole enchilada. She'd be pressing Lydia and Harry as leverage right now to try forcing compliance because while she can do complicated she isn't going to waste her own time if she doesn't have to.
I think she's satisfied with what she got, and values the opportunity to try for a working relationship that doesn't actively antagonize us over pressing for the loose change from this particular situation.
We should really avoid entanglement, at very least until we're strong enough to do better, but as long as we don't come off as hostile I think we've got this.
The fundamental disagreement here I think is that I just don't believe that it was ever possible to tell winter to pound sand and make it stick at our level. Which left us choosing how to pay them off and which way to present doing so.
I think it did. Unless I'm drastically misunderstanding something the primary negotiations have completed, and we got what we wanted.
The situation with Lydia is somewhat ambiguous, but if Mab wanted to pursue the point doing so between talking to Dresden and talking to us again was the time to do it. Leaving it to a later date needlessly complicates her own business.
I'm thinking she's at worst willing to be as patient as Arawn is, and will take up any revenge she still wants with him once he's corporeal again.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
When it comes to what Incarna means in Dresdenverse I am thinking more of 'peer of the Yama Kings', beings who hold up the various fundamental functions of reality for better or for worse.
Oh and keep in mind this would have been utterly unwinnable if you did not just nope Mab's UMI from the moment she showed up.
Oh and keep in mind this would have been utterly unwinnable if you did not just nope Mab's UMI from the moment she showed up.
Not that it would have made much difference, but shouldn't we have had the 2 additional dice from WHWH? 10 for etiquette with excellency, 2 for stunt, and then WHWH for a total of 14?
No, I think that went very well, yes.
Perfect defenses aren't strong defenses. They are perfect. As in, "Uriel's galaxy destroying attack is shrugged off with no damage".
You maybe joking, but this is a genuinely good idea for a subvote.
VOTE
[X] Yes, you will call on Mab and listen to what she has to say
-[X]Look at Mab's shoes. Ask "what does the wearer of these shoes know of my exaltation"
RATIONALE
This seems fairly simple.
Whatever she wants to speak of, she doesnt want to do so in front of Arawn's daughter, a champion of Odin and a new employee.
If she's going to mention Nemesis, she doesnt want to spread it around. If she has a sensitive commission, she wants very few people to know about it.
We can go home, get some rest and call her at our leisure, with a full Essence pool, and maybe Michael or Dresden as escort.
We are under no obligation to say yes to a request.
Are you sure you want to trigger the crown with your anima flaring in full sight of Mab? Harry was not able to sense anything when it triggered, but Mab might have better senses.