Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Molly's feelings towards queen Mab are not outright enmity but between the circumstances of her Exaltation and seeing what she did to Slade she is convinced Mab is evil. Whether that means she will go out of her way to make Mab lose if up to you guys.
I strongly disagree.
It would requires some significant cognitive dissonance for her to believe that her crush Dresden, the dude ignoring the Denarian in his head currently offering him power, is working for someone evil.

And as for the circumstances of her Exaltation, not once did she see Mab involved.
And Arctis Tor was pretty clearly in the aftermath of a major battle when Molly was rescued, with the bones of hundreds or thousands of defenders in the courtyard and outside the walls, and the taint of Hellfire in the air.

It takes rather more narcissism than she currently has to believe that Mab had her kidnapped and tortured while her capital was under attack. We are supposed to be INT 4, Subterfuge 4 with a demon vizier in our head.
Working our way through the implications should be straightforward.

Evil comes in lots of shades and flavors. Mab is clearly evil by any reasonable definition, but, to borrow D&D terminology, she's Lawful Evil as opposed to the Chaotic Evil of the Denarians or similar threats. She's bad, but she's a necessary evil that allows reality to continue being reality and maintains the sort of stability that has allowed Human civilization to progress beyond hiding in caves from the monsters of the world.

Molly, with her Occult 5 and Usum the shoulder-Devil, should recognize that pretty easily.
No she isnt. No more than any head of state is. By their works and colleagues shall ye know them.

Rashid the Gatekeeper is a respected professional colleague of hers. The Archangel Uriel works with her.
The Unseelie Accords are her creation(hence its called Unseelie) for limiting conflict between supernatural powers, set up in 1994 after the city of Milwaukee allegedly vanished for 2 hours during a supernatural altercation, and she guarantees them.

Mab is the friend of very few people; she has a hard job with harsh demands, and will sacrifice a lot of shit to do it, herself and others. But she isnt evil in any meaningful use of the word.
That merely means you don't kill her without having a replacement ready.
Not that you'll never stand in her way.
Yes.
But you can disagree with someone's aims and methods, and actively impede them, without their being an enemy.
Molly and her mother disagree strongly on certain matters all the time, but they arent enemies.

Dresden considers Mab dangerous. Perilous. Ruthless. She scares the shit out of him.
But he doesnt think she's evil.
And he's pretty clear when he thinks someone or a group of someones is evil.

Except Mab didn't do any of that, and even if she did such a significant relationship should be on both sheets.
Mab doesn't operate the winter court as a hive mind collective, Molly's encounter with them was Fetches being Fetches and her fear magic being a lure. You're blaming the CEO for what some guys from the janitorial department got up to in their off hours.

This axe you're looking to grind is unreasonable, and even if it wasn't petulantly flailing at anything Mab does within our reach would be bad tactics. Starting a feud with someone that you can't beat is asking for them to solve you before you're a problem. Better to swallow the spite and wait until you can strike once and be done with it.
Even worse, there are pretty strong indications that Eldest Fetch was working for someone else in much of that episode.
And we know Nemesis got a grip on some pretty senior people in Winter, from Cat Sith to the Leanansidhe to the Winter Lady.

The assassination/murder of the lawyer/fixer Lucius Glau during the events of Splattercon by the Scarecrow have been pretty clearly arranged to remove the only person who knew who were the actual instigators of the events of Proven Guilty; he was the bagman and fixer, and the Scarecrow ignores Dresden to go out of its way to kill him.

And Sandra Marling, the person who gave Molly the idea to use fear to mindwhammy her friends and got her to come to Splattercon, vanished without a trace.

The events of Proven Guilty hasnt been explained to this day IRL.
Seven books later. SEVEN.
Just like we havent yet had all the events of the dinner party in Grave Peril explained, all the way back in Book 3. We're on Book 17.
 
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It would requires some significant cognitive dissonance for her to believe that her crush Dresden, the dude ignoring the Denarian in his head currently offering him power, is working for someone evil.
Harry is far from willing, she considers him entrapped.

But more importantly Molly has seen what Mab is doing to Loyd Slate.

Not that Slate is innocent, but Molly has opinions on torturing people.

They are like this: Anyone doing it is evil.
 
I strongly disagree.
It would requires some significant cognitive dissonance for her to believe that her crush Dresden, the dude ignoring the Denarian in his head currently offering him power, is working for someone evil.

I mean it's very easy to imagine Harry working for someone evil if he is compelled by a magical debt. Also there is the Loyd Slade situation, given the state he was in and the fact that Molly figured out that she was intentionally heal him so he could torture him again.... yeah she is evil as far as Molly's moral compass is concerned, she could be a lot of other things besides, but there is no way anyone who would inflict that level of suffering could be anything but evil to someone who was raised by Michael.

On the matter of the fetches, even though Mab did not specifically tell the fetches to torture Molly they still work for Winter. Anyone who rules over a bunch of murderous horrors that torture people for fun and does not try to either change their behavior or in some way remove the danger to innocents form them is also evil.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Sep 23, 2022 at 4:57 AM, finished with 119 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Tell Lydia, it's her life and her father that's in danger
    [X] We still need more information. Talk to Bob about how mantles can be transferred without killing their holders.
    [X] Talk to everyone present, to work out what options exist that don't end with with Lydia suffering in eternal slavery to the person who has all reasons to make her life miserable as a tool of misplaced revenge against her father
    -[x] Ask Gard if her employer would be willing to intervene in the situation, provided we deliver Katrina to him.
    [X] Talk to everyone present, to work out what options exist that don't end with with Lydia suffering in eternal slavery to the person who has all reasons to make her life miserable as a tool of misplaced revenge against her father
    -[x] Ask Gard if her employer would be willing to intervene in the situation, provided we deliver Katrina to him.
    -[x] Ask Lydia if her powers include resurrection or something like this. If they do, we might be able to supercharge her with our power.
    [X] Tell Lydia, it's her life and her father that's in danger
    - [X] Ask Harry if he has any good ideas about keeping Mab from getting hooks in the innocent girl.
    -[x] If proves impossible, figure out how Lydia can get the best deal out of it.
 
Just to clarify, the GM already clarified on the transfer so talking to Bob is a wasted action, right?
Well, Bob might have some knowledge on how this can be done. Mob is not planning to do this non-lethaly, but that doesn't mean it can't be done

[X] We still need more information. Talk to Bob about how mantles can be transferred without killing their holders.
[X] Talk to everyone present, to work out what options exist that don't end with with Lydia suffering in eternal slavery to the person who has all reasons to make her life miserable as a tool of misplaced revenge against her father
-[x] Ask Gard if her employer would be willing to intervene in the situation, provided we deliver Katrina to him.
 
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[X] We still need more information. Talk to Bob about how mantles can be transferred without killing their holders.
[X] Talk to everyone present, to work out what options exist that don't end with with Lydia suffering in eternal slavery to the person who has all reasons to make her life miserable as a tool of misplaced revenge against her father
-[x] Ask Gard if her employer would be willing to intervene in the situation, provided we deliver Katrina to him.
 
Harry is far from willing, she considers him entrapped.
But more importantly Molly has seen what Mab is doing to Loyd Slate.
Not that Slate is innocent, but Molly has opinions on torturing people.They are like this: Anyone doing it is evil.
1) She KNOWS Dresden. Soul-deep. She's Soulgazed him.

He's the same dude who stopped defending himself in Dead Beat when Morgan was trying to kill him because he thought it would give the Wardens a better shot to stop the Darkhallow. The same one who had himself shot when he was worried that he had no free will in the Winter Knight Mantle after Lasciel whispered in his head.

She knows the lengths to which he will go, and how far he will make compromises and no further.
I dont think she would buy that.


2)Molly has the benefit of most of an American high school education, and she has a computer at home.
And while we like to make jokes about the quality of US education, she has a lot of information at her fingertips.
She knows pretty well what some of the pre-modern punishments were like.

Hell, she's Catholic and went to sunday school; Jesus Christ hanging on a cross is a centerpiece of the religion.

I mean it's very easy to imagine Harry working for someone evil if he is compelled by a magical debt. Also there is the Loyd Slade situation, given the state he was in and the fact that Molly figured out that she was intentionally heal him so he could torture him again.... yeah she is evil as far as Molly's moral compass is concerned, she could be a lot of other things besides, but there is no way anyone who would inflict that level of suffering could be anything but evil to someone who was raised by Michael.

On the matter of the fetches, even though Mab did not specifically tell the fetches to torture Molly they still work for Winter. Anyone who rules over a bunch of murderous horrors that torture people for fun and does not try to either change their behavior or in some way remove the danger to innocents form them is also evil.
1) We are talking about the dude who arranged his own assassination to get out from under the Winter Knight Mantle. Yes, it took a lie from a Fallen to give him the impression he had limited alternatives. But it goes to show Dresden can get pretty fucking intense about what he's willing to do.

Mab canonically made a deal with him in order to get him to actually honor these things instead of subverting them.

2) No more than the Christian tales of the everburning lake of fire in Revelations into which sinners are tossed. Or the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Just saying that Christians are no stranger to the concept of prolonged punishments. Or indeed, we could ask Gard and Odin about the truth of the legends of Loki being bound with the entrails of his son under dripping poison until Ragnarok.

The rules for legal punishments are different for people who were raised in a different era.

3)You can no more change the nature of a fetch than you can turn a lion into a vegetarian.

The DF Queen of Winter has less direct control over the nature of her subjects than a 3CD has over 1CDs in Malfeas, or an Exalted sorcerer has over its summons. She doesnt make them, or determine their nature. And like I said, much of the evidence suggests that the fetches werent working for Mab during Proven Guilty anyway.

Who they were working for is one of the current mysteries of Proven Guilty, along with some of the events of Bianca's dinner party in Grave Peril.


Still your story of course. If you want to use Mab as an antagonist :le shrug:
But IC Molly has every reason to know better than to treat her as evil. Sometime antagonist? Sure.
Evil? No. Enemy? Not without a much bigger incident.
 
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1) She KNOWS Dresden. Soul-deep. She's Soulgazed him.

He's the same dude who stopped defending himself in Dead Beat when Morgan was trying to kill him because he thought it would give the Wardens a better shot to stop the Darkhallow. The same one who had himself shot when he was worried that he had no free will in the Winter Knight Mantle after Lasciel whispered in his head.

She knows the lengths to which he will go, and how far he will make compromises and no further.
I dont think she would buy that.

2)Molly has the benefit of most of an American high school education, and she has a computer at home.
She knows pretty well what some of the pre-modern punishments were like. Hell, she's Catholic and went to sunday school; Jesus Christ hanging on a cross is a centerpiece of the religion.


1) We are talking about the dude who arranged his own assassination to get out from under the Winter Knight Mantle. Yes, it took a lie from a Fallen to give him the impression he had limited alternatives. But it goes to show Dresden can get pretty fucking intense about what he's willing to do.

Mab canonically made a deal with him in order to get him to actually honor these things instead of subverting them.

2) No more than the Christian tales of the everburning lake of fire in Revelations into which sinners are tossed. Or the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Just saying that Christians are no stranger to the concept of prolonged punishments. Or indeed, we could ask Gard and Odin about the truth of the legends of Loki being bound with the entrails of his son under dripping poison until Ragnarok.

The rules are different for people who were raised in a different era.

3)You can no more change the nature of a fetch than you can turn a lion into a vegetarian.

The DF Queen of Winter has less direct control over the nature of her subjects than a 3CD has over 1CDs in Malfeas, or an Exalted sorcerer has over its summons. And like I said, much of the evidence suggests that the fetches werent working for Mab during Proven Guilty anyway.

Who they were working for is one of the current mysteries of Proven Guilty, along with some of the events of Bianca's dinner party in Grave Peril.


Still your story of course. If you want to use Mab as an antagonist :le shrug:
But IC Molly has every reason to know better than to treat her as evil. Sometime antagonist? Sure.
Evil? No. Enemy? Not without a much bigger incident.


Er... objectively she knows Harry is willing to work with evil people, he has taken aid from Lash, not the help she wanted him to granted, but more limited cooperation is on the table, and it is on the table for Molly herself. You can argue that Harry would never give in to evil that ha has lines he would not cross, but not that he would never work with evil. He does that all the time. I mean hell Marcone is evil, if in a far more human way than Mab and both Harry and Michael worked with him. There is no transitive quality of good, if good people worked with you then you must be good.

As for comparing Mab to capital G God in the context of torturing Slade... yeah that does not work, Mab just is not all knowing, all loving or all powerful. Eternal torture of a person, which incidentally also keeps them from the judgement of God is morally wrong and evil as far as Molly is concerned. I mean go back to see what her reaction was to seeing Slade, the reason she did not try to rescue him was because he judged it would be too dangerous to do so not because she thought 'huh maybe unlike me this guy deserves the torture' . The rules cannot be different for different people in a Christian worldview because it is universalist. So 'Mine of Vengeance saith the Lord' and Slade is still a mortal human.

As for the fetches. I imagine someone who has been tortured by them, who has seen their friends maimed and killed by them to being told 'they could not be changed' is something like:
*Behold my glorious field of fucks and know that it is barren* :V

If they are objectively unchangeably evil than they should be destroyed and anyone who is in a position to do so and does not bears some of the guilt of their crimes.

One last point I never said Molly considers Mab an enemy, just evil.
 
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Er... objectively she knows Harry is willing to work with evil people, he has taken aid from Lash, not the help she wanted him to granted, but more limited cooperation is on the table, and it is on the table for Molly herself. You can argue that Harry would never give in to evil that ha has lines he would not cross, but not that he would never work with evil. He does that all the time. I mean hell Marcone is evil, if in a far more human way than Mab and both Harry and Michael worked with him. There is no transitive quality of good, if good people worked with you then you must be good.

As for comparing Mab to capital G God in the context of torturing Slade... yeah that does not work, Mab just is not all knowing, all loving or all powerful. Eternal torture of a person, which incidentally also keeps them from the judgement of God is morally wrong and evil as far as Molly is concerned. I mean go back to see what her reaction was to seeing Slade, the reason she did not try to rescue him was because he judged it would be too dangerous to do so not because she thought 'huh maybe unlike me this guy deserves the torture' . The rules cannot be different for different people in a Christian worldview because it is universalist. So 'Mine of Vengeance saith the Lord' and Slade is still a mortal human.

As for the fetches. I imagine someone who has been tortured by them, who has seen their friends maimed and killed by them to being told 'they could not be changed' is something like:
*Behold my glorious field of fucks and know that it is barren* :V

If they are objectively unchangeably evil than they should be destroyed and anyone who is in a position to do so and does not bears some of the guilt of their crimes.

One last point I never said Molly considers Mab an enemy, just evil.
in fairness molly also has occult 5 wouldn't she know some species just spontaneously regenerate and such? Like stuff like perfect genocide being possible probably isn't something that works in a setting like dresden files. Well without outsiders.
 
Er... objectively she knows Harry is willing to work with evil people, he has taken aid from Lash, not the help she wanted him to granted, but more limited cooperation is on the table, and it is on the table for Molly herself. You can argue that Harry would never give in to evil that ha has lines he would not cross, but not that he would never work with evil. He does that all the time. I mean hell Marcone is evil, if in a far more human way than Mab and both Harry and Michael worked with him. There is no transitive quality of good, if good people worked with you then you must be good.

As for comparing Mab to capital G God in the context of torturing Slade... yeah that does not work, Mab just is not all knowing, all loving or all powerful. Eternal torture of a person, which incidentally also keeps them from the judgement of God is morally wrong and evil as far as Molly is concerned. I mean go back to see what her reaction was to seeing Slade, the reason she did not try to rescue him was because he judged it would be too dangerous to do so not because she thought 'huh maybe unlike me this guy deserves the torture' . The rules cannot be different for different people in a Christian worldview because it is universalist. So 'Mine of Vengeance saith the Lord' and Slade is still a mortal human.

One last point I never said Molly considers Mab an enemy, just evil.
1)Dresden is willing to work with evil people to common ends, not for evil people. Hence his refusal to work for Marcone in Fool Moon. Same with Michael. Its a small but important distinction.

Lash is not Lasciel. Dresden makes that point to her.
You'd have a stronger point if you were using the example of Mavra and the Word of Kemmler, but even that involved giving it to someone who was going to hide it away from those who wanted to use it.

2)For one thing its not eternal torture; Slate has been in Mab's hands since the end of Summer Knight.So four years roughly.
The second point is, and I quote:
yeah she is evil as far as Molly's moral compass is concerned, she could be a lot of other things besides, but there is no way anyone who would inflict that level of suffering could be anything but evil to someone who was raised by Michael.
If we are making allowances for people making apparently evil action with the benefit of superior knowledge, we might consider that Mab knows a lot more than most ppl, and never does things for just one reason.

While Lloyd Slate is alive, for example, he holds the WK Mantle, and it means that the Nemesis-infected Winter Lady Maeve cant pick another Winter Knight and present him as a fait accompli to Mab. So Mab blocks her without giving any overt indication that she is doing so, while seeking a candidate of her own.

Molls having empathy for someone in a similar situation is plausible.
But she has high enough Subterfuge(and Usum in her ear) to realize that the Winter Queen isnt depriving herself of her primary troubleshooter for lolevil reasons.


3)Canonically, Dresden did not free or euthanize Slade when he had the opportunity either.
And he had upwards of ten minutes to do so. I quote:
The sculpture of the crucified man groaned again. Though he was still crucified and horribly rotted, my fire spells, as augmented by Lily's extraordinary power, had melted the bonds around his left wrist, and now his left arm flopped bonelessly in the steady, howling wind. I had never seen human flesh so badly mangled. His fingers, wrists, and forearms had long since succumbed to frostbite, the blood gone poisonous as it flowed through them, causing the flesh to swell grotesquely. Despite that, I could see that the skin of his entire arm was covered in layers of scars. Burn scars. Knife scars. Scars from flesh torn by blunt force and left to heal incorrectly.

I've taken a few hits myself. But that poor bastard's arm had suffered more than my whole body.

Almost against my will, I walked over to the tree. The man's hair hung like Spanish moss over his bowed face, some of it light brown, some of it dark grey, some of it gone brittle and white. I reached out and brushed the hair back from the man's face, lifting his head toward me a little. His beard was as long and disgusting as his hair. His face had been ravaged somehow, and I got the unsettling impression that his expressions had so contorted and stretched his face that they had inflicted their own kind of damage, though there were no scars as on his arm. His eyes were open, but completely white and unseeing.

I recognized him. "Lloyd Slate," I murmured. "The Winter Knight."

The last time I'd seen Slate had been after the battle on the hill of the Stone Table, a place that served as the OK Corral for the Faerie Courts when they decided to engage in diplomacy by means of murdering anyone on the other team. Slate had been a first-rank menace to society. A drug addict, a rapist, a man with no compunctions about indulging himself at the expense of others. By the end of the battle he had killed a young woman who might have become a friend.
He stirred and let out a small whimper. "Who is there?"
"Dresden," I replied.
Slate's mouth dropped open, and a maniacal little giggle bubbled under his reply. "You're here. Thank God, you're here. I've been here so long." He tilted his head to one side, exposing his carotid artery. "Free me. Do it, quickly."
"Free you?" I asked.
"From this," Slate sobbed, voice breaking. "From this nightmare. Kill me. Kill me. Kill me. Thank God, Dresden, kill me."

The seedier neighborhoods of my soul would have been happy to oblige him. But some dark, hard part of me wanted to see what else I could think of to make him suffer more. I just stared at him for a while, considering options. After perhaps ten minutes, he dropped unconscious again.
From somewhere to my right, a delicious voice, at once rough and silky, purred, "You do not understand his true torment."
I turned to face the frozen fountain. Well. The remains of it, anyway. Maybe a third of the ice mound remained, but it had partially uncovered the statue within-no statue at all, but a member of the Sidhe, a tall, inhumanly lovely woman, her appearance one of nigh perfection. Or it would have been so in other circumstances. Now, partially free from the encasing ice, her scarlet hair clung lumpily to her skull. Her eyes were deeply sunken and burned too bright, as though she had a fever. She stood calmly, one leg, her head, one shoulder, and one arm now emerging from the ice, which was otherwise her only garment. There was an eerie serenity to her, as though she felt no discomfort, physical or otherwise, at her imprisonment. She seemed to regard the entire matter with amused tolerance, as though such trivial conditions were hardly worthy of her attention. She was one of the oldest and most powerful Sidhe in the Winter Court- the Leanansidhe.
And she was also my godmother.
"Lea," I breathed quietly. "Hell's bells. What happened to you?"
"Mab," she said.
"Last Halloween," I murmured. "She said that you had been imprisoned. She's kept you here? In that?"
"Obviously." Something extremely unsettling glittered in her eyes. "You do not understand his true torment."
I glanced from her to the Winter Knight. "Uh. What?"
"Slate," she purred, and flicked her eyes in his direction. She was unable to move her head for the ice about it. "There is pain, of course. But anyone can inflict pain. Accidents inflict pain. Pain is the natural order of the universe, and so it is hardly a tool mete for the Queen of Air and Darkness. She tortures him with kindness."
I frowned at Slate for a moment, and then grimaced, imagining it. "She leaves him hung up like that. And then she comes and saves him from it."
My godmother smiled, a purring sound accompanying the expression. "She heals his wounds and takes his pain. She restores his sight, and the first thing his eyes see is the face of she who delivers him from agony. She cares for him with her own hands, warms him, feeds him, cleans away the filth. And then she takes him to her bower. Poor man. He knows that when he wakes, he will hang blind upon the tree again-and can do naught else but long for her return."
I shook my head. "You think he's going to fall for that?" I said. "Fall in love with her?"
Lea smiled. "Love," she murmured. "Perhaps, and perhaps not. But need. Oh, yes. You underestimate the simple things, my godchild." Her eyes glittered. "Being given food and warmth. Being touched. Being cleaned and cared for-and desired. Over and over, spinning him through agony and ecstasy. The mortal mind breaks down. Not all at once. But slowly. The way water will wear down stone." Her madly glittering eyes focused on me, and her tone took on a note of warning. "It is a slow seduction. A conversion by the smallest steps."
The skin on my left palm itched intensely for a moment, in the living skin of the Lasciel sigil.
"Yes," Lea hissed. "Mab, you see, is patient. She has time. And when the last walls of his mind have fallen, and he looks forward with joy to his return to the tree, she will have destroyed him. And he will be discarded. He only lives so long as he resists." She closed her eyes for a moment and said, "This is wisdom you should retain, my child."

"Lea," I said. "What has happened to you? How long have you been a Sidhe-sicle?"
Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. "I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Foolish. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways."
"She's had you locked up in your own private iceberg for more than a year?" I shook my head. "Godmother, you look like you fell out of a crazy tree and hit every branch on the way down."
Her eyes opened again, glittering and unsettling as hell. And she laughed. It was a quiet, low sound-and it sounded nothing like the laugh of the deadly Sidhe sorceress I'd known since before I could drive.
"Crazy tree," she murmured, and her eyes closed again. "Yes."
I heard heavy, thumping steps on the staircase, and Thomas came sprinting onto the parapet, fae-bloodied sword still in hand. "Harry!"
"Here," I said, and waved an arm at him. He glanced at Charity and Molly, and hurried over to me.
A little lump of fear knotted itself in my guts. "Where's Murphy?"
"Relax," he said. "She's downstairs guarding the door. Is the girl all right?"
I pitched my voice low. "She's breathing, but I'm more worried about damage to her mind. She's crying at least. That's actually a good sign. What's up?"
"We need to go," Thomas said. "Now."
"Why?"
"Something's coming."
"Something usually is," I said. "What do you mean?"
He gritted his teeth and shook his head. "Since last year… since the Erlking… I've had… intuitions, maybe? Maybe just instincts. I can feel things in the air better now than before. I think the Wild Hunt is coming toward us. I think a lot of things are coming toward us."
No sooner had he said it than I heard, blended with the distant cry of the wind, a long, mournful, somehow hungry horn call.
I stepped up onto the edge of the fountain and peered out into the moonlit night. I couldn't make out anything very clearly, but for an instant, far in the distance, I saw the gleam of moonlight on one of the odd metals that faeries used to make their weapons and armor.
Another horn rang out, this one more a droning, enormous basso- only the second horn came from the opposite side from the first. Over the next few seconds, more horns joined in, and drums, and then a rising tide of monstrous shrieks and bellows, all around us now. In the mountains east of Arctis Tor, one of the snowcapped peaks was abruptly devoured by a rising black cloud that hid everything beneath it. A quick check around showed me several other peaks being blanketed in shadow. Horn calls and cries grew louder and continuously more numerous.
"Stars and stones," I breathed. I shot a glance at my godmother and said, "The power I used here. That is what caused this, isn't it?"
"Of course," Lea said.
"Holy crap!" Thomas blurted, jumping like a startled cat when what he must have thought was another statue moved and spoke.
"Thomas, this is my godmother, Lea," I said. "Lea, Th-"
"I know who he is," my godmother murmured. "I know what he is. I know whose he is." Her eyes moved back to me. "You summoned forth the power of Summer here in Arctis Tor, in the heart of all Winter. When you did so, those of Winter felt the agony of it. And now they come to slay you or drive you forth."
I swallowed. "Uh. How many of them?"
The mad gleam returned to her eyes. "Why, all of Winter, child. All of us."
Crap.
"Charity!" I called. "We're leaving!"
Charity nodded and rose, supporting Molly, though the girl was at least mobile. If she'd remained unaware and walled away from the world, it would have been a real pain to get her all the way back down the tower. Molly and her mom hit the stairs.
"Thomas," I said. "See if you can chop off some of this ice without hurting her."
Thomas licked his lips. "Is that a good idea? Isn't this the one who tried to turn you into a dog?"
"A hound," Lea murmured, glittering eyes flicking back and forth at random. "Quite different."
"She was a friend of Mom's," I told Thomas quietly.
"So was my Dad," Thomas said. "And look how that turned out."
"Then give me the sword and I'll do it myself. I'm not leaving her."
Lea made a sudden choking sound.
I frowned at her. Her eyes bugged out and her face contorted with apparent pain. Her mouth moved, lush lips writhing, twisting. A bestial grunt jerked out of her throat every second or two. The fingers of her freed hand arched into a claw. Then she suddenly sagged, and when she turned her eyes back to me, they were my godmother's again; one part lust, one part cool, feline indifference, one part merciless predator.
"Child," she said. Her voice was weak. "You must not free me."
I stared at her, feeling confused. "Why?"
She gritted her teeth and said, "I cannot yet be trusted. It is not time. I would not be able to fulfill my promise to your mother, should you free me now. You must leave."
"Trusted?" I asked.
"No time," she said, voice strained again. "I cannot long keep it from taking hold of…" She shuddered and lowered her head. She lifted her face to me a few seconds later, and the madness had returned to her eyes. "Wait," she rasped. "I have reconsidered. Free me."
I traded a look with Thomas, and we both took a cautious step backward.
Lea's face twisted up with rage and she let out a howl that shook icicles from their positions. "Release me!"
"What the hell is going on here?" Thomas asked me.
"Uh," I told him. "I'll get back to you after we get out of Dodge."
Thomas nodded and we both hurried toward the stairs. I glanced back over my shoulder, once. The fountain was already building itself up again, freezing water to ice. A thin sheet of it already covered my godmother. I shuddered and looked away, directly at the delirious Lloyd Slate. My footsteps quickened even more.

And then, just as I was leaving, only for an instant, I thought I saw one more thing. The triangle of statues of Sidhe noblewomen caught a stray beam of moonlight, while thin clouds made it jump and shift. In that uncertain light, I saw one of the statues move. It turned its head toward me as I left, and the white marble of its eyes was suddenly suffused with emerald green the same color as Mab's eyes.

Not just the same color. Mab's eyes. The statue winked at me.

The sounds of the approaching fae grew even louder, reminding me that I had no time to investigate. So I shivered and hurried down the stairs beside Thomas, leaving the parapet and its prisoners and-perhaps-its mistress behind me. I had to focus on getting us back to Lily's rift in one piece, so I forced all such questions from my mind for the time being.

The four of us were slogging through snow up to my knees a few moments later, while I spent the last reserves of power I'd taken from Lily's butterfly to keep us from going into hypothermia. I took the lead and ran for the rift as a nightmarish symphony of wails and horns and howls closed in all around us.
Note that Lea was Nemesis-infected in this scene, so we dont know how much of what she says about Mab here can be taken as truth, because Nemesis allows Fae to lie. But Dresden choosing not to euthanize Slate, not out of fear but because he apparently feels Mab has a legal claim on him, is canon as of Proven Guilty.


4)Word of Jim is that Mab isnt evil. We're just dealing with Fae nature. As in:
From: Jim Butcher

Date: Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 12:25 AM

Subject: Re: [mcanallys] storm front question

To: McAnally's Pub mcanallys@jim-butcher.com

No free will ever? Or no free will to disobey when commanded? I don't know that it's possible to have intellect without will. Well, then again, most of us have to make decisions about what is true, and what isn't, or what to remember and forget – but a spirit of intellect is mostly just a talking library, right? A storehouse. Although, Bob seems to also understand what he knows… I'm getting over my head.

Well, I don't want to hand out too much outside the context of an actual story. But within the context of the Dresden books, Bob isn't, like, an actual mortal person.

Mortals are the ones who have free will, the ability to choose what they're doing, to choose between right and wrong. Without getting too thickly into the underlying philosophy, that's the thing that separates, for example, mankind from the angels–the angels didn't get the same kind of choice about their existance, and what they would do with it. Mortals get the chance to make all kinds of decisions, and can change their minds, well, at will. Other creatures, though they may look like people, don't get the same range of choices about who and what they will be.

Mab, for example, is Mab. She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind. It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it. She simply isn't capable. She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do. It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well. Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul. You just stay what you are.


But that's getting way off the subject of Bob. I mean, don't you think that if he had totally free will, he'd be out of the skull all the time, hitching rides in people's heads on their way into strip bars or something? There's a reason he obeys Harry, and it's not purely because Harry offers him shelter from a gruesome demise. It's a part of who and what he is.

Another question: Does Bob know everything all the time, or just know when he is asked a question? Can he ask himself questions? (wouldn't that involve will?)

He doesn't know everything. He knows a LOT. There's a difference. He's been alive for centuries and worked with a lot of different wizards, and he remembers absolutely everything he is exposed to. He's an enormous source of information and practical experience, not a conduit to infinite knowledge. He's got limits. He can ask himself questions and attempt to extrapolate answers based upon what he knows, or by asking other spirits for answers, or by venturing out and seeking the answers himself, but he doesn't just pull knowledge out of nowhere. He just LIKES having it, and getting more of it. That's what he is. He's innocent (more or less) of the whole question of good and evil. His existance is focused on questions and answers, upon simply acquiring the knowledge, and that's that.

Which is not to say that he could never become anything more. Especially if he hangs around with mortals a lot. Mortals, in their own possession of free will, have a tendancy to influence beings who don't have it, in one way or another. I suppose it's entirely possible, for example, that too much association with mortals are what changed Aurora, former Summer Lady, and gave her a determination to destroy the natural order in an effort to change its very nature–for the better, true, but it would never even have occurred to any of the other Queens, Mothers or Lady that such a thing might be, until it had already happened. It isn't in their nature.

But perhaps I've said too much. I'll shut up now. :)

Jim

His thinking has evolved since then, particularly on the issue of fae Mantle holders having souls, but none of the WoGs contradict this. The woman is constrained by the nature of her Mantle.

Does Molly know this? I have no idea.
She's Occult 5, and has asked about the Fae iirc, but she's still updating her knowledgebase.
 
But IC Molly has every reason to know better than to treat her as evil
I think it's a bit much to suggest she's a good guy, it's just that she isn't a mustache twirling sadist or monster like Nicodemus.

Personally I think she's still in the "can be worked with" category, but that doesn't diminish the other things she does.

It seems to me that the issue here is that evil is a subjective term that mostly seems to translate to "someone to be opposed because they're bad" in whatever context the reader personally holds.
 
The argument that beings without free will cannot be evil would necessarily imply that the Fallen cannot be evil as their single act of free will has been spent, which is not something Molly is likely to believe without the 10K feet author's eyes view.

I never said Molly thinks that Mab is lol!Evil, I said she thinks that Mab is evil, maybe torturing Slade is coldly efficient, but unless the torture is literally the only way to keep Slade alive (which she has no reason to assume) the fact that she is torturing him and not just keeping him prisoner is still wrong. The part where she is pretending not to hold the Mantle in reserve is not something Molly knows and she has no reasonable IC cause to be charitable given the timetable here:
  1. Be tortured by a bunch winter fey to the point where you develop a soul deep hatred of them
  2. See some other poor sap being tortured by the boss winter fey
 
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Snipped because Skynet the Kindle doesn't like big text boxes and slows down in protest when I try to reply to them.
WoJ might say Mab isn't 'Evil', but that's a matter of personal interpretation, IMO. From Molly's POV, informed by her Occult 5 or not, Mab is evil.

Mine, too, for however much that matters. Then again, from my POV 99+% of politicians are evil, as is the Catholic Church and many other large organized religions.

Evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
 
Blackmailing Mab, or more likely attempting to blackmail Mab, seems like a fantastically bad idea, unless the goal is to comment suicide in an unnecessarily complex and dramatic fashion.

I would rather wait until we're at least powerful enough to survive long enough to do more than bend over and kiss our asses goodbye after making the attempt.
Mab can't destroy the Exaltation, and she doesn't know what will happen to it when Molly dies.

"If you kill me, my power will fly back from whence it came, carrying my memories with it. Tell me, Mab, do you think the Yama Kings will ask a price as cheap as a single girl and her father to keep this information quiet?"

Though that may fly too much into technical truths and trigger Mab's Faerie BS detector built up from dealing with her own court. Just flat out lying may be safer. Also see if Thomas can forward us his sister's contact list, then have the cyberdevils set up a digital dead drop so if we drop off the radar Mab's secrets get sent to every supernatural faction that so much as dabbles in the digital landscape.
 
Mab can't destroy the Exaltation, and she doesn't know what will happen to it when Molly dies.

"If you kill me, my power will fly back from whence it came, carrying my memories with it. Tell me, Mab, do you think the Yama Kings will ask a price as cheap as a single girl and her father to keep this information quiet?"

Though that may fly too much into technical truths and trigger Mab's Faerie BS detector built up from dealing with her own court. Just flat out lying may be safer. Also see if Thomas can forward us his sister's contact list, then have the cyberdevils set up a digital dead drop so if we drop off the radar Mab's secrets get sent to every supernatural faction that so much as dabbles in the digital landscape.
Win utterly or fail completely plans are always bad ideas. If someone calls your bluff, has an option you weren't aware of, or is simply feeling spiteful, you have no fallback.

Maybe we'll need this card at some point but it's a nuclear option; just playing it makes everything worse after the fact.

Playing it because we want to win and make Mab suck eggs while doing it, especially when we're not even close to being in her league yet, is just pointlessly self destructive.
 
Votes as they stand.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Sep 23, 2022 at 11:53 AM, finished with 133 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Tell Lydia, it's her life and her father that's in danger
    [X] We still need more information. Talk to Bob about how mantles can be transferred without killing their holders.
    [X] Talk to everyone present, to work out what options exist that don't end with with Lydia suffering in eternal slavery to the person who has all reasons to make her life miserable as a tool of misplaced revenge against her father
    -[x] Ask Gard if her employer would be willing to intervene in the situation, provided we deliver Katrina to him.
    [X] Tell Lydia, it's her life and her father that's in danger
    - [X] Ask Harry if he has any good ideas about keeping Mab from getting hooks in the innocent girl.
    -[x] If proves impossible, figure out how Lydia can get the best deal out of it.
    [X] Talk to everyone present, to work out what options exist that don't end with with Lydia suffering in eternal slavery to the person who has all reasons to make her life miserable as a tool of misplaced revenge against her father
    -[x] Ask Gard if her employer would be willing to intervene in the situation, provided we deliver Katrina to him.
    -[x] Ask Lydia if her powers include resurrection or something like this. If they do, we might be able to supercharge her with our power.
 
Here, let me help
:whistle:

[X] We still need more information. Talk to Bob about how mantles can be transferred without killing their holders.

[X] Talk to everyone present, to work out what options exist that don't end with with Lydia suffering in eternal slavery to the person who has all reasons to make her life miserable as a tool of misplaced revenge against her father
-[x] Ask Gard if her employer would be willing to intervene in the situation, provided we deliver Katrina to him.
 
Yeah I'm too paranoid for that.

[X] We still need more information. Talk to Bob about how mantles can be transferred without killing their holders.
 
How else are we going to start selling it's use for a ten million dollars a pop?
Not worth it in the least. It paints a target on our back that we can't really mitigate or deal with the consequences of.

It also makes our abilities easier to plan around once people know how they work.

Seriously, Uriel took preemptive action to protect the secrets of the white god from us; offering that on the open market is asking for top shelf trouble.

We don't need to explain anything to Gard, just claim it as fact and refuse to elaborate. Her suspicions aren't the same as confirmations from the source.
 
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