I did read it. I'm not seeing what you are referring to. The stunt reads informative. There's nothing that cannot be said when Harry is present. And, if anything, knights should be present, as should be Kristin. Dragonblooded are also exalted, lest we want to repeat the mistakes of the First Age, which had celestials breeding dragonblooded.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
I genuinely cannot see where the disconnect is. Maybe this is a language barrier thing.
I'll quote some of the relevant bits here and @BronzeTongue can elaborate further if you still don't understand.
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Yes, I still just don't see what you are referring to. Let me elaborate
This is an outright lie - Molly had a great support structure on all sides. Mentor 5 in Michael. Harry Dresden as an ally. Usum the spirit guide. Molly's family and mortal friends as emotional supports. She was surrounded by the world that genuinely tried to accommodate her and wasn't alienated by it at all. Infernal exaltations, unlike Abyssal ones, don't restrict their user, or at least don't do it to nearly the same degree. The worst Molly got was the arch-devil aura, which only select supernatural beings were able to perceive. Abyssals lose their name, and are forbidden from engaging in a number of activities.
On the flip side - Molly is still fumbling in the dark where it comes to exalted side of the lore and the world. Who made the exaltations? What did they make them for? Why is Molly's exaltation different from the abyssal ones? Where does the Solar shard fit in? Were they weapons made by different warring factions to fight against each other? Were they meant to fight together? How do dragonblooded fit in? Molly has zero answers to those.
This may be true, but still feels disingenuous to me for a number of reasons, the first and foremost of which is "Molly knows nearly nothing about the history of exaltations". The best IC reason I see for her to feel a connection would be the sense of responsibility for the release of their shards. It's a very good reason, but it's not what is being referred to here, I believe. Celestial exaltations aren't tied to each other. These shards are of different flavors. Molly doesn't know their shared history, if such exists. What is the connection? And why is Lydia, who we still debate whether she's actually an exalt (and have no IC confirmation) is here, but the Arthurian knights, who we know are exalts, aren't?
And nothing here, nothing, explains why Harry, who literally studied our soul from the inside, who may have a more intimate feeling of our exaltation shard than we do thanks to the Soulgaze, shouldn't be present.
BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
She fit in so well that her alien soul became an planet lmao. Exalted are of/from a different Age entirely. The only other ones Molly knows of are imprisoned in DemonReach and the person who put them there is a time traveler. Abyssals seem to have it worse, sure.
I answered the first and second question here on the previous page. BronzeTongue told you his reasoning for the Arthurian Knights on the previous page.
This last question I also responded to. BronzeTongue further explained his logic on the previous page and I just quoted it here for you now, in a spoiler box. If you disagree that's fine but you are asking the same questions. Just talk with BronzeTongue at this point. Nothing more I can say.
This isn't a lie at all, Molly may have had a great support structure but she still did feel like she didn't belong and she was asking a lot of questions about herself nobody around her could answer.
You are misinterpreting what Bronzetongue wanted to say here.
How does developing our kingdom relate to not fitting in? IC Sanctuary was developed as a response for a safe space for ourselves and our mortal friends after they were kidnapped by naagloshii.
Why aren't you counting dragonblooded as exalts? We have no IC knowledge about fundamental difference in their and our exaltations. We know that our exaltation will be released to find a new host when we die, yes. But we don't know how it works with dragonblooded.
Asking a lot of questions about herself doesn't equate not feeling like you fit in. I'd like a citation, if possible, for Molly feeling like she doesn't fit into the world.
Where did you answer the first two questions? I have rechecked, and I don't see it. Reminder: we don't know IC that Lydia is an exalt. We suspect it, heavily. But as far as we know, she's a result of a weird experiment by Kemmler. We haven't done any seriuos investigation into the nature of her power. And why don't Arthurian knight qualify? They are exalts suddenly thrust in a new age.
Are these the answers you are referring to?
The big issue here is that:
a) We don't know that Lydia is a type of exalted (and OOC if she is, she's a reskin of a dragonblooded, not a celestial)
b) We do know that dragonblooded are exalted
So, it makes zero sense to have Lydia here, and not have Arthurian knights or representatives of the only dragonblooded clan we know of. And as to bringing them up to speed - it doesn't make sense not to have Harry here, who has experience in directly investigating our exaltation.
A reminder, again - we know nearly nothing about exaltations. If the goal is to "get these people up to speed", we are going to fail. Because we don't know enough. Are they going to develop kingdoms of their own? What can they expect? Why are their exaltations different rom our own? What can they expect? We cannot answer. We can only promise support, which is good, but for promising support it makes much more sense to have others with us. To demonstrate that we are not alone.
BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
I am.. not doing this. I was starting to respond by breaking things down as much as I can manage and reiterate things but you honest to God have me so confounded with your confusion at this point.
- Location
- Canada
We actually know more about Exaltation than anybody who's not an Angel. We can answer so many questions, for example literally everything you just named (either because we already know or could just get the answer via Crown).
We can also promise support, which obviously makes most sense by doing so alone, since it reminds everyone that our support is more important than literally any other faction's; Molly is a faction by herself, and a demonstration of just how powerful the Exalted can become in a short time frame. Focus everyone on the fact that Molly is the 800-pound gorilla who nobody wants to piss off.
Okay anyone who's voting for exalted host(ess) what are you hoping to get out of this meeting?
I'm hoping to have a productive and relatively complete conversation about what their position in the world and what we can do to get them on relatively our side preferably directly but relatively would also be fine.
What is going alone accomplish to that end as far as I can tell from the continuous conversation bronzetongue wants to establish commonality when none of them want to stick around to us at the moment.
After this a lot of them are going to want to go home either to their boyfriend to their parents to the Doctor's wife.
This is the free for all if we're going to make a pitch now is the time. We have already established a commonality. we literally met all of them already. what is going alone going to accomplish here?
[X] Molly's Entourage
-[X] Lydia, as your friend and one who aids the dead
-[X] Harry as someone who has mastered Essence by another path
-[X] Tiffany in case you need social back-up
-[X] Thomas the brother of Silver and a Supernatural living a mortal life might provide an invaluable viewpoint
-[X] Olivia, it might be helpful to have a critical perspective on the supernatural world when you introduce it
-[X] Kristin she might not be an Exalt, but she speaks for one and would be able to give an account of how they managed to keep themsleves safe all this time
[X] Plan Allied Forces
-[X] Lydia, as your friend and one who aids the dead
-[X] Harry as someone who has mastered Essence by another path
-[X] Thomas, as Silver Phantom's brother and the White Court member
-[X] Tiffany in case you need social back-up
I'm hoping to have a productive and relatively complete conversation about what their position in the world and what we can do to get them on relatively our side preferably directly but relatively would also be fine.
What is going alone accomplish to that end as far as I can tell from the continuous conversation bronzetongue wants to establish commonality when none of them want to stick around to us at the moment.
After this a lot of them are going to want to go home either to their boyfriend to their parents to the Doctor's wife.
This is the free for all they're having a meeting with us and insisted on neutral territory then they're going to go do whatever the hell they want to do because yet again they are free actors the fact they've given us this much time is already too much Dahaka was going to go home to his parents. Silver was going to go home with her sister or possibly back to her boyfriend. The Doctor was already on Mission.
This is the free for all if we're going to make a pitch now is the time. We have already established a commonality. we literally met all of them already. what is going alone going to accomplish here?
[X] Molly's Entourage
-[X] Lydia, as your friend and one who aids the dead
-[X] Harry as someone who has mastered Essence by another path
-[X] Tiffany in case you need social back-up
-[X] Thomas the brother of Silver and a Supernatural living a mortal life might provide an invaluable viewpoint
-[X] Olivia, it might be helpful to have a critical perspective on the supernatural world when you introduce it
-[X] Kristin she might not be an Exalt, but she speaks for one and would be able to give an account of how they managed to keep themsleves safe all this time
[X] Plan Allied Forces
-[X] Lydia, as your friend and one who aids the dead
-[X] Harry as someone who has mastered Essence by another path
-[X] Thomas, as Silver Phantom's brother and the White Court member
-[X] Tiffany in case you need social back-up
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BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
Y-yes. That's the point. To change that.
[X] Plan Allied Forces
- Location
- Canada
Molly just needs to set some boundaries and let everyone know what they shouldn't do if they don't want to get tossed into Demonreach for the next eternity. It's not like these guys are gonna grow anywhere near as fast as Molly (there's only so many apocalypses to farm XP from) or have access to the kind of allies she has (wizards are insane) or even the powers she has (soul-world and limited omniscience ftw).
Just let everyone know they can do whatever they want but that Molly will be the one giving them the People's Elbow if they cross the line.
Just let everyone know they can do whatever they want but that Molly will be the one giving them the People's Elbow if they cross the line.
BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
Also to clarify here. We have not established a "commonality" between Molly and all of the new Exalts as a group. However we will be meeting them in the bar, in one place at one time. Two, BronzeTongue's vote isn't to go alone it's to go with Lydia.
Allow me to rephrase. How is going alone or with just Lydia going to change that? As far as I can tell they already insisted on neutral territory they already don't want to stick around why would going with just Lydia increase the likelihood of them sticking around?
As far as I can tell there is no rationale Beyond create commonality when the commonality is Beyond obvious at this point we sought them out we told them the name of the exalted we are the ones who found them and now we are the ones who bring them together. What more commonality could be established?
If this is to get ahead of the free for all this is it they chose to be in the real world in neutral territory they don't want an actually private meeting with us.
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BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
Ah. They have their own ambitions, we shouldn't expect them not to pursue them.
The rational is that they are complete strangers right now and have nothing in common with all the people on the list while also being largely ignorant of all the various factions and thus seeing them as 'other'.
The only ones from that list they may see differently are Molly and on some level Lydia, who is also new to this and from this Age of modern humans though a bit out of touch. By encouraging and hopefully establishing a group mentality between people in a similar enough situation we can use that as our in to create a bond that last independent of everyone else. Along with maybe helping them prop each other up even independently of Molly instead of going their separate ways. In this way we may build a bond that can't be easily disrupted by people like Lara or non new Exalts in general and can be leaned on when say, people in the White Council who aren't fans of nonhumans interact with them in a political manner.
Which would help against them being manipulated because while we can show them to our other people later, which everyone else can do as well, they would, hopefully, contextualize Molly and the other new Exalts as kindred, in the sense that above all else they are in this together. Even if they don't live in the same house or something. Ring each other up on a cyber devil phone when something happens and they want backup with no strings attached from any supernatural faction. Even Molly who is leading one but also operates as Molly Carpenter when she wants to.
Does this make sense? I'm kind of at a loss here to be honest with you saying that the "commonality is obvious".
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Please list what you think we know about exaltations IC. Because as far as I know that pool of knowledge is extremely limited. And using the Crown in front of Silver Phantom is... inadvisable, I believe. We can do it, of course, but right now as far as I am aware, all we know is:
1) It is a thing from previous Ages (we don't know from which Age)
2) If was made for mortals, so they can accomplish that which is impossible
3) It doesn't impinge on our free will.
What else? We don't know who or what made the exaltations. We don't know if their exaltations were made by the same being(s) that made our exaltations - it's quite plausible that they were made to fight each other by two peer factions. Proxy conflicts via mortals are a known thing in the setting. We don't know the purpose their or our exaltation were made for. We don't know the history of exaltations. We don't know what they can expect out of their exaltations. Are they going to slowly turn into the things sleeping in the Black Ocean? How will their power progress? What are their limitations?
Our exaltation is at least as different from theirs as theirs are different from those of dragonblooded.
800-pound gorilla is a local danger, not a political faction. We cannot offer them a number of things that having an allied Warden Commander with us would allow us to offer. Harry should definitely be present. At least. Tiffany brings incredible, near impossible healing to the table, which is a big bonus.
The three new exalts don't exist as a group.
EDIT:
Also, a reminder, again - two out of three exalts are not free agents. They have loyalty to other forces. Doctor to venatori. Silver Phantom to Raiths as a family.
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BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
I know that. Mother of God I know. Please cut it out.
Honestly at least if we go with a small party it'll be over quicker I guess.
Silver has a prior relationship with both Thomas and Dresden and both of them are affable men that by extension essentially work with or for us interchangeably we've hired Dresden before and Thomas is literally our employee.
Inherently if the goal is to create like a lasting connections bringing people who have things to say about their individual predicaments and their goals is helpful to that. Just saying we are all exalted which we have already done doesn't feel like it furthers that goal.
The commonality that bronze tongue is trying to build is based on caste markings which are not going to be the same they're going to all be sun shaped but they're very obviously different caste marks.
I guess what I'm getting at is I'm not seeing how going with such a small group enhances that but increases the likelihood they just ignore it or otherwise say okay and then go about whatever their business. I'm hoping to have like a complete and final conversation with them no matter how it shakes out so bringing Dresden who is both our friend and a member of the white council is important, bringing Tiffany who is a former member of the Denari is important for our friend the god Beast, bringing Olivia kind of important for our friend the doctor and his new type of vampire who are very least tangentially related.
To sum it up the people I want to bring are just like people who can give like a comprehensive view of the world (Dresden and Tiffany) as well as the option not to engage with the bullshit half of the world. Which is Thomas and our Dragon seed assistant.
I guess I'm treating this like it could be the last conversation we have with them because it really feels like it could be the last conversation we have with them but maybe that's just my reading of it.
It makes sense but none of this has helped by just bringing Lydia. Like if the goal is to create some kind of connection that can exist like independently of Lara or anyone else then bring a smaller party makes sense but like you still need to bring adult humans there because the doctor is more likely to take them seriously possibly along with Dahaka even though he might not like it.
Silver has a prior relationship with both Thomas and Dresden and both of them are affable men that by extension essentially work with or for us interchangeably we've hired Dresden before and Thomas is literally our employee.
Inherently if the goal is to create like a lasting connections bringing people who have things to say about their individual predicaments and their goals is helpful to that. Just saying we are all exalted which we have already done doesn't feel like it furthers that goal.
The commonality that bronze tongue is trying to build is based on caste markings which are not going to be the same they're going to all be sun shaped but they're very obviously different caste marks.
I guess what I'm getting at is I'm not seeing how going with such a small group enhances that but increases the likelihood they just ignore it or otherwise say okay and then go about whatever their business. I'm hoping to have like a complete and final conversation with them no matter how it shakes out so bringing Dresden who is both our friend and a member of the white council is important, bringing Tiffany who is a former member of the Denari is important for our friend the god Beast, bringing Olivia kind of important for our friend the doctor and his new type of vampire who are very least tangentially related.
To sum it up the people I want to bring are just like people who can give like a comprehensive view of the world (Dresden and Tiffany) as well as the option not to engage with the bullshit half of the world. Which is Thomas and our Dragon seed assistant.
I guess I'm treating this like it could be the last conversation we have with them because it really feels like it could be the last conversation we have with them but maybe that's just my reading of it.
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Trying to isolate new Exalts is a futile action. Why should Silver Phantom go to Molly for political help instead of Lara? Why should Doctor consult Molly instead of Venatori (and he will be getting Archive's number very soon)? Why should Azhi Dahaka learn magic from Molly instead of from White Council affiliates?
Trying to exclude others won't work and is counter-productive. Much better to show up as a united front.
Trying to exclude others won't work and is counter-productive. Much better to show up as a united front.
BoredMan
Everyone gets a tariff now. Even the penguins. wtf
Wow, the post are getting kinda long now..
If they were to ask anyone questions about what's going on with their bodies/souls Molly and the others of their batch should have the best first person responses for example. Harry and Thomas do not have that. Their circumstances are unique enough compared to the rest of the setting that if we wanted to we could use it as a springboard to establish the mindset previously described with Molly as the senior.
To be honest (again) I think your being a tad bit pedantic here. All three of them literally exalted on the same day. The caste mark thing is just symbolic evidence of what they recently became.
Narratively speaking though, do you honestly think DragonParadox would have this be the last time we meet them when he clearly wanted to write other Exalts into the story for a long minute now with the signs starting at Vegas? You seriously think that after writing up their character sheets that he'd be fine with them staying off screen for the remainder of the story?
Fat chance.
Well, at least you understand what's being said. Even if you don't agree. After what just happened I think the Doctor will respect what we have to say at least. Would be hard not to. We just saved his second life after enabling it. I don't think Dahaka's issue is that he only takes older people seriously.
Inari didn't know she was a vampire or born to a family of them until recently right? Unless I'm getting the timeline mixed up. You.. don't need to explain our relationship to them to me. I myself am aurging for an initial connection spearheaded by the 'newly exalted in an age without' which nobody else no matter their allegiance may superspeed or undermine without immense difficulty.
If they were to ask anyone questions about what's going on with their bodies/souls Molly and the others of their batch should have the best first person responses for example. Harry and Thomas do not have that. Their circumstances are unique enough compared to the rest of the setting that if we wanted to we could use it as a springboard to establish the mindset previously described with Molly as the senior.
..The goal is to create a connection separate from everyone else that nobody else can relate to through/from a shared traumatic experience. We haven't even all been in the same room yet. Things didn't seem to be going to well from that interlude.
To be honest (again) I think your being a tad bit pedantic here. All three of them literally exalted on the same day. The caste mark thing is just symbolic evidence of what they recently became.
I think you are too focused on the size of the group and forgetting the desired dynamic and relation as I've explained it. I don't get why they can't meet those people after the fact. They aren't going to disappear into the ether. Probably.
I'm not. We haven't even started talking to them as a group yet. Phones are a thing.
Narratively speaking though, do you honestly think DragonParadox would have this be the last time we meet them when he clearly wanted to write other Exalts into the story for a long minute now with the signs starting at Vegas? You seriously think that after writing up their character sheets that he'd be fine with them staying off screen for the remainder of the story?
Fat chance.
No it isn't, because that piece isn't talking about a support structure beyond implicitly extending a hand to be one for them.
Molly had support, but she didn't have any real knowledge of what she was even though we did and stumbled around reacting to outside forces while figuring out what she wanted to do. There wasn't anyone quite like her around, no great precedents for her to follow like when she was a wizard, and many of the things she took for granted were unknown or outright disbelieved by others.
Also, I'd remind you that you voted for this without complaint. That you're arguing the point now for a different vote doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The reason Lydia gets an invite and the dragon bloods don't is that she was the first person we found who Molly felt was like her. She isn't the same, but she's pretty strongly aligned with us and has a nature close to the Abyssals' in many ways. The dragon bloods are very different, have a huge obvious divergence in background, and aren't quite our people.
I don't care about a strict categorization, I care about setting the right tone for the discussion. Lydia can build that up, Arthurian Dragonmen and all the follow on from explaining them cannot.
Edit: autocorrupt strikes again
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I agree with the rest you said in this segment but this is specifically about Dresden and being a full wizard Talent not about like him taking older people seriously but he's more likely to take Dresden more seriously as a full wizard Talent even if he dislikes him for that same reason.
Yeah I get it it's fine to be honest it's a it's just an opinion thing right. It's not really a shared experience at all silver was being killed by just essentially drive by Jade, Dahaka literally views his exaltation as something Victorious that he earned according to his own words and will considering he slit his own throat and then beat back the person who tried to insinuate demons into his flesh and then escaped isn't entirely off base, while Romero committed suicide for the mission the only basis that are similar on is that two of them committed suicide in different circumstances for different reasons and subsequently view their exaltation being completely different ways.
I guess I'm just not seeing how binding it could be and that's really just an opinion thing right. At the moment they're just strangers and they'll continue to be strangers after this moment it doesn't matter to them a very least Mr God Beast didn't seem to care when we came up to him. I just have doubts from what we've seen that Valentin Romero will care either.
Because that would require AP and I just don't believe that until they bring trouble or some form of resistance against us they just that anyone would ever dedicate any level of AP to seeing them.
Which is functionally speaking the same thing I would like them to be on our side and I'm just not seeing how this brings them there.
When's the last time you took a call from a stranger on purpose? I have no doubt the phone's exist I also know that you can just ignore phone calls or get new phones.
I'm speaking from a narrative sense I don't think this is the last time we'll meet them I think it's the last time we'll get to talk to them as fresh exalts before they form their own greater opinion of the supernatural world or the world in general and how either of those things should be laid out. Whether or not they show up as enemies allies Friends or Foe in the future isn't really a question.
How much influence we have on those positions I don't want to boil it down to this conversation but yet again multiple of them were about to just leave when we showed up it's not like they were hungry to stay in chat no matter how curious they were about their powers they were.
I guess I'm boiling it down too why people form relationships they form a relationships for two reasons wants and needs none of the abyssals have shown a want to form a continuous relationship but they have shown needs they can be met that can facilitate the formation. While we also possess commonalities/ allies that can further foment or form those relationships.
It just seems like bronze tongue approach for relys on them wanting or caring about the commonality rather than them being human and just not caring about a frankly arbitrary label that has no real backing versus their already existing relationships.
Valentin doesn't know Inari or Dahaka vice versa for all of them in the end without any level of buy in from them this is a short meeting they get the rundown on the history and then they go their separate ways and continue doing what they were doing.
Hell maybe I'm being cynical and this is will work exactly as planned. It just seems like at the moment a little thin on reasons for them to really care or give particular Credence to anything we have to say.
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For me, this is an occasion to get a foot in the door and gain (or recover) ground compared to the other factions so it is counterproductive to invite anyone that is also related to any other institution.
Thomas is related to the white court and the venatori, Harry is a member of the white council, the arthurians are their own faction. They have a conflict of interest.
We may not be able to sever the links that already exist for silver and the doctor, but there's no reason to give free ammunition to anyone else either by inviting someone from their faction in a discussion where Molly is trying to get closer to them.
I would be willing to go for adding Olivia and Tiffany to the meeting in addition to Lydia, but that risks looking too much like us ganging up on the newly exalted so I can understand why Bronze is only going for Lydia….
Though, given that there are three abyssals, I do think it can work, so:
[x] Molly's closest
-[x] Lydia
-[x] Tiffany
-[x] Olivia
And because I still agree with it:
[X] The Exalted Host(ess)
-[X] Lydia
Thomas is related to the white court and the venatori, Harry is a member of the white council, the arthurians are their own faction. They have a conflict of interest.
We may not be able to sever the links that already exist for silver and the doctor, but there's no reason to give free ammunition to anyone else either by inviting someone from their faction in a discussion where Molly is trying to get closer to them.
I would be willing to go for adding Olivia and Tiffany to the meeting in addition to Lydia, but that risks looking too much like us ganging up on the newly exalted so I can understand why Bronze is only going for Lydia….
Though, given that there are three abyssals, I do think it can work, so:
[x] Molly's closest
-[x] Lydia
-[x] Tiffany
-[x] Olivia
And because I still agree with it:
[X] The Exalted Host(ess)
-[X] Lydia
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