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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Frankly speaking, it is very difficult to argue about how the battle of armies will go, considering that we are all here on the Storyteller system. There are gifts that counter magic. There are counter spells. There are other things. Our soldiers should have gifts of mental attacks, various other spells, etc. And the enemies are not Mages without a paradox, no matter how much we model wizards like this.

Outsiders are obviously not all equal and not necessarily invulnerable and unique. They can play partially out of order, because they are like Molly here. They are not characters of the World of Darkness, they are invaders from the Exalt days(but nerfed and modernised). They have their own tricks and unique weaknesses and immunities. However, without testing, we can not say for sure that they are absolutely invulnerable. Who knows, maybe they are not immune to the mental gifts of the inhabitants of Sancturi. Frankly it is impossible to say and no, saying that they are super cool evil forces is not proof. They are game-mechanical entities and the moment you have mechanics, you are no longer an evil no limit entity from the novel.
 
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uju32 said:
As I see it?
The Senior Council has access to all this and more, in firepower mundane and exotic, yet when Peabody threw a mistwraith at them, it took the assembled Senior Council to bind and banish it. Not kill it, banish it.

I expect the exact same thing would happen if someone threw a couple of the same thing at the portal; that sort of threat is Molly business, not minion business.


We're likely to beat (almost) any conventional supernatural force in open-field conflict. That plays to our strengths.
But for all their puissance, the armed forces of Sanctuary dont really have a defence against, say, an Outsider mental attack locking down a battlefield, the way Malvora did in White Night.

Or even to just supernatural levels of Intimidate; remember the Dragon of Las Vegas?
••••• •••• The Last Dracul

The most fearsome of the Tzimisce's monstrous forms, this power allows the Dragons to assume the shape from which their ancient nickname is derived.

System: By expending six blood points, the Tzimisce grows in size and girth, its flesh sloughs off reveal gleaming scales, wings sprout from its back, and its head becomes crocodilian. Its Strength and Stamina doubles, its scaly hide becomes the equivalent of 4 Armor, it gains five additional "Bruised" health levels, and difficulties to hit it are decreased by one because of its huge size. Its enormous wings function in the same way as the Chiropteran Marauder's. The dragon uses Strength with the Intimidation Ability and its mere presence triggers an Intimidation check each turn; this is a free action that happens automatically unless the Tzimisce deliberately suppresses it. While in dragon form, the vampire's blood immediately bursts into flame when exposed to open air, doing damage as described for Blood of the Earth. Those who manage to damage the dragon must take a dodge action to avoid being splashed with one blood point's worth of dragon's blood; those who have never fought a dragon before will not likely know to save actions for this eventuality. Even worse for its opponents, the dragon can spit any amount of its blood at its foes as a one-round action, even splitting blood points up among closely clustered opponents. This fiery vitae does damage as described for Blood of the Earth. The dragon cannot consume blood in the normal fashion due to its size, but can supplement its diet by consuming fresh human corpses. Consuming a corpse requires an entire turn's action and grants the Tzimisce blood points equal to however many blood points remain in the corpse's veins.
If the motherfucker hadnt botched and the QM cut us a break, all our forces would have been rolling that Intimidation check every turn.


And the idea that our population counts as Starborn seems patently ridiculous to me.
Nevermind the fact that Outsiders have never been hesitant to fight Starborn in canon; no Outsider thats ever run into Dresden has ever hesitated about getting into a fight.

You are vastly overestimating the capability of our force against nonconventional threat vectors.
Conventional, sure. Even uberghouls can be physically stalled, because while they regenerate Agg damage in combat time, they still need to attack you in melee.

But unfortunately, physical threat is not the only threat there is.
Which is why we wanted our Hell sealed off in the first place.
And why this is such a threat.


Thats my two cents.Take it as you will.
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This is absurd, to be frank. Response to a terrorist bombing of government headquarters from inside, and direct frontal assault on a military fortress ate completely different.

Also, no, the Council doesn't have anything resembling out legions and are freaking out about it. We had several updates in story about that, and how the Council believes that Molly's kingdom represents a potential to completely upend magical civilization as they know it.
 
uju32 said:
Now the following section, specifically is speculation on my part.

But I remember me that kuejin can get enlightenment/increase in Dharma from consuming yugen chi from hsien. And that there is a Saint of the Godbody Soul Treatment from Thousand Hells, where the Yama Kings use synthetic yugen from a human boddhisattva to give a power boost to their akuma.

And then I look at the fact that the Red Court here have been keeping gods captive for centuries instead of murdering them all one Halloween and eliminating the threat of their escaping.
And I notice how similar it is.
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The Hsien are interesting. They were servants of Heaven, basically minor angels, responsible for carrying the prayers of mortals to Heaven for onward forwarding to God, who would then decide on how to respond to the prayer and have the Hsien given instructions on what, if any, miracles to grant on Earth,

They're (mostly part) fallen angels rather than gods like Odin who were worshipped in their own right who had their own authority.

The reason Yugen grants false enlightenment is because of what the Wan Kuei were and what Hsien are. It's not about power level, it's because the Hsien are heavenly beings and the Wan Kuei want to become that again, as Yugen is like the energy that the Wan Xian had before they were cursed, so by using it they can be partially relieved of that curse, in the same way that increasing in Dharma does.
 
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Alratan said:
The Hsien are interesting. They were servants of Heaven, basically minor angels, responsible for carrying the prayers of mortals to Heaven for onward forwarding to God, who would then decide on how to respond to the prayer and give the Hsien instructions on what, if any, miracles to grant on Earth,

They're (mostly part) fallen angels rather than gods like Odin who were worshipped in their own right who had their own authority.

The reason Yugen grants false enlightenment is because of what the Wan Kuei were and what Hsien are. It's not about power level, it's because the Hsien are heavenly beings and the Wan Kuei want to become that again, as Yugen is like the energy that the Wan Xian had before they were cursed, so by using it they can be partially relieved of that curse, in the same way that increasing in Dharma does.
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In fairness Odin has soul fire who knows how the connection to God works in universe but many gods might actually answer to him. Doubt it though seeing the general attitude of gods and stuff towards the white god in quest.
 
firefrog600 said:
In fairness Odin has soul fire who knows how the connection to God works in universe but many gods might actually answer to him. Doubt it though seeing the general attitude of gods and stuff towards the white god in quest.
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Soul fire just seems to be a way of using the energy of the soul, not anything inherently heavenly, as far as I can tell though, so I'm not sure.
 
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BoredMan said:
The resources of the White Council do not compare to the full breadth of resources and options available to a magitechworld.
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The resources? No.
The firepower available to the Senior Council very much does; might even be qualitatively superior, because they have some actual experience with the relevant threats.

Especially since Sanctuary didnt even know what an Outsider was until about 3 months ago IC.

Alratan said:
To my mind the correct comparison to the Fivefold Courts isn't the White Council. It's Earth and everyone living there (which means not the Nevernever).
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At the point where you are trying to equate one player to the rest of the setting?
You are playing the wrong game.

Yog said:
This is absurd, to be frank. Response to a terrorist bombing of government headquarters from inside, and direct frontal assault on a military fortress ate completely different.

Also, no, the Council doesn't have anything resembling out legions and are freaking out about it. We had several updates in story about that, and how the Council believes that Molly's kingdom represents a potential to completely upend magical civilization as they know it.
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Respectfully disagree. You defend against bullets the same way, whether its a driveby by a gang or a sniper
The seven most powerful wizards on the White Council had to work together to get rid of a deathstone-mistfiend.
This wasnt a one-person held it, and the other killed it; they had to hold and banish it.

That provides a useful benchmark.

Furthermore, everytime the Council has had to fight Outsiders en masse, they have retreated.
They did so during Dead Beat, they did so during Proven Guilty. And they actually know what Outsiders are.
Our people dont.


Yes?
As of 3 months ago, Sanctuary did not know that Outsiders even existed. They didnt know that their weapons would have any effect against even the least Outsiders until Vegas. They dont have any assurance it will work against greater Outsiders.

Even the aggravated damage weapons you are counting on only matter against those combatants who dont have agg damage regeneration, which admittedly is the majority of the setting, but not all of it.
The loup-garou does. So do the uberghouls.

Sanctuary can comfortably guard it against 99% of the setting.
But they dont have any real defence against the 1% besides Molly.
Alratan said:
The Hsien are interesting. They were servants of Heaven, basically minor angels, responsible for carrying the prayers of mortals to Heaven for onward forwarding to God, who would then decide on how to respond to the prayer and give the Hsien instructions on what, if any, miracles to grant on Earth,

They're (mostly part) fallen angels rather than gods like Odin who were worshipped in their own right who had their own authority.

The reason Yugen grants false enlightenment is because of what the Wan Kuei were and what Hsien are. It's not about power level, it's because the Hsien are heavenly beings and the Wan Kuei want to become that again, as Yugen is like the energy that the Wan Xian had before they were cursed, so by using it they can be partially relieved of that curse, in the same way that increasing in Dharma does.
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The Hsien are explicitly called little gods.
Changeling The Dreaming: Land of Eight Million Dreams p19 says, and I quote:
The hsien are gods, albeit minor ones, and are capable of more than the Western fae could ever hope to achieve.
 
uju32 said:
The resources? No.
The firepower available to the Senior Council very much does; might even be qualitatively superior, because they have some actual experience with the relevant threats.

Especially since Sanctuary didnt even know what an Outsider was until about 3 months ago IC.


At the point where you are trying to equate one player to the rest of the setting?
You are playing the wrong game.


Respectfully disagree. You defend against bullets the same way, whether its a driveby by a gang or a sniper
The seven most powerful wizards on the White Council had to work together to get rid of a deathstone-mistfiend.
This wasnt a one-person held it, and the other killed it; they had to hold and banish it.

That provides a useful benchmark.

Furthermore, everytime the Council has had to fight Outsiders en masse, they have retreated.
They did so during Dead Beat, they did so during Proven Guilty. And they actually know what Outsiders are.
Our people dont.


Yes?
As of 3 months ago, Sanctuary did not know that Outsiders even existed. They didnt know that their weapons would have any effect against even the least Outsiders until Vegas. They dont have any assurance it will work against greater Outsiders.

Even the aggravated damage weapons you are counting on only matter against those combatants who dont have agg damage regeneration, which admittedly is the majority of the setting, but not all of it.
The loup-garou does. So do the uberghouls.

Sanctuary can comfortably guard it against 99% of the setting.
But they dont have any real defence against the 1% besides Molly.

The Hsien are explicitly called little gods.
Changeling The Dreaming: Land of Eight Million Dreams p19 says, and I quote:
The hsien are gods, albeit minor ones, and are capable of more than the Western fae could ever hope to achieve.
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I feel enough artillery still would kill things with agg regen. Mind you there are plenty of other powers to bypass that like intangibility or a literal immunity to things outside weaknesses.
 
uju32 said:
Sanctuary can comfortably guard it against 99% of the setting.
But they dont have any real defence against the 1% besides Molly.
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This is supposed to be an argument against their power? Seriously, part of the setting has been infiltrated by Nemesis in the form of both fairy super powers. That our people have no defense against the Outsiders is not unique considering most of the setting is also folded like cardboard against them. Your argument is that if God wants to kill us, he will kill us... Well, okay, but we are not discussing God, we are discussing how attacks are usually carried out and they usually do not include this. And again, we do not know how the Outsiders (which are shadow puppets) work mechanically.
 
uju32 said:
They dont have untold numbers of ancients.
They dont even have untold numbers of commoners; they can make them fast and easy, but they are not limitless, if only because they must be fed, and there's a limit to how many vampires they can support at a time.


However.
They do have a significant number of multi-century old elders who can be promoted/upgraded into roles in the nobility.
Not unlimited numbers, but enough that they appear to be loss-insensitive in canon. Even at pretty high levels.



Despite almost never leaving home, Dresden alone was personally involved in killing at least 3x Barons in the Chicago/Midwest area alone: Baroness Bianca St Claire in Grave Peril, Baron Bravosa in War Cry, and Baroness LeBlanc in Love Hurts.
That didnt even materially affected their combat power.

We also know of the deaths of two Dukes(by Morgan and McCoy) and two Counts(McCoy) and that didnt affect their conduct of the war either. Hell, Luccio explicitly complains about swarm tactics in Dead Beat, though she never specifies about power levels.


The very fact that Arianna Ortega was able to pose a sufficiently legitimate threat to her father's rule that he conspired to have her assassinated by Dresden, and the fact that no one thought removing the Red King and elevating a Lord in his place would be crippling in a time of war speaks to the fact that the Red Court does appear to have a deep enough bench to sustain those kinds of changes.

Whether its an existing pool of elders, or an ability to empower new candidates to the power level of elders.

The Red Court nobility is made up of Barons, Counts, Dukes and Lords.

It is canon that the Eebs stated that nobility and the power thereof is conferred; they said this in Changes, and explicitly mntion that politics is the determining factor.

It is a major plot point that Bianca St Claire went from a commoner Rampire of pedigree running a vampire business in the middle of Chicago to a Baron of her own local court between Storm Front and Grave Peril.

Storm Front was March 2000. Grave Peril was October 2001. Approximately 19 months.




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Now the following section, specifically is speculation on my part.

But I remember me that kuejin can get enlightenment/increase in Dharma from consuming yugen chi from hsien. And that there is a Saint of the Godbody Soul Treatment from Thousand Hells, where the Yama Kings use synthetic yugen from a human boddhisattva to give a power boost to their akuma.

And then I look at the fact that the Red Court here have been keeping gods captive for centuries instead of murdering them all one Halloween and eliminating the threat of their escaping.
And I notice how similar it is.
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Harry was unusually involved in everything to do with that war, and the way you're pinning those power levels is weird. Having lots of barons doesn't necessarily mean they have a lot of top end people. Vampiric generation games should very much be in play here.

Ariana was able to threaten the red king specifically because she was his direct childe and he was actively going senile. Her plan wasn't to fist fight him for control, it was to play politics around him taking advantage of his mental decline to turn everyone else against him.

Even odds he'd end up in a retirement mansion where people pretend he's still important like every other red to suffer the same decline. That or eaten to retain some of his power.

Their upgrade capabilities are never shown to be anything like what you're suggesting. It's wild speculation drawing conclusions from data points taken without the context they happened in.


Sanctuary is an entire planet, for all the logistical issues of using that leverage I do not buy one power from one region of the planet being able to run them over like that. They could certainly bottle us up and defeat our agenda, maybe wear us down and do lasting damage to our standing forces, but not just roid up and conquer the place.

Hell and the Outside are different animals, but the Red Court of all people are at most the FCF's peer group.
 
uju32 said:
At the point where you are trying to equate one player to the rest of the setting?
You are playing the wrong game.
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No, Just to Earth. That excludes the Nevernever powers.

uju32 said:
The Hsien are explicitly called little gods.
Changeling The Dreaming: Land of Eight Million Dreams p19 says, and I quote:
The hsien are gods, albeit minor ones, and are capable of more than the Western fae could ever hope to achieve.
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The hisien are gods in an eastern sense, not a western sense. In a western sense, they map much better onto angels. Given that they're servants and messengers of heaven and its ruler, not powers in their own right.

And as I say, the reason that yugen unlocks false enlightenment is because of their heavenly nature, not because of any divine nature, or their power level. That's the point. A regular minor god's essence doesn't wok like Yugen does for one of the Wan Kuei, it's because of what the Hsien are/were that it does so, because of them (once) being part of the Heavenly hierarchy as the Wan Kuei aspire to become.

A Wan Kuei can eat the energy of any other kind of god and it just refills their Chi pools like eating mortal energy. The Hsien's yugen is unique and special because of the Hsien's unique nature as (fallen) emissaries of Heaven and the Wan Kuei respond to it in a unique fashion because before the Wan Xian were cursed they had the same flavour of heavenly energy running through their systems.
 
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uju32 said:
The firepower available to the Senior Council very much does; might even be qualitatively superior, because they have some actual experience with the relevant threats.
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It's like you think the organizations that make up the Five Courts doesn't have a history of monster combat as well. Your making way too many assumptions considering what little we've seen and heard of the FFC on screen.
uju32 said:
At the point where you are trying to equate one player to the rest of the setting?
You are playing the wrong game.
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The FFC is composed of five players working in conjunction with themselves and the planet. It's population is comparable to 2007 Earth as well.
 
And yes, if we post hot takes on the powers of the setting and speculation. My opinion is that Jim's explanation about the absence of God and the expulsion of pagan gods makes no sense from a Christian theological perspective and makes absolutely no sense in this crossover if we assume that the White God is the Demiurge. In my opinion, it makes more sense to assume that the White God and the Angels are in fact a usurping force that forced everyone to surrender under threat. Perhaps they are, as many believe, Devil Tiger or the three sidereals in a cloak. In any case, I think that Molly will eventually have to admit that her god really likes to creatively interpret the truth.
 
uju32 said:
The Hsien are explicitly called little gods.
Changeling The Dreaming: Land of Eight Million Dreams p19 says, and I quote:
The hsien are gods, albeit minor ones, and are capable of more than the Western fae could ever hope to achieve.
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Alratan said:
The hisien are gods in an eastern sense, not a western sense. In a western sense, they map much better onto angels. Given that they're servants and messengers of heaven and its ruler, not powers in their own right.
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They specifically are gods in the same way Naiads, Oceanaids, Dryads, Zephyrs and many other nature spirits across mythologies are gods which means they are the divine servants of the actual gods of those things more powerful than any mortal adjacent but only gods in the broadest sense of the word.
 
Ivar said:
And yes, if we post hot takes on the powers of the setting and speculation. My opinion is that Jim's explanation about the absence of God and the expulsion of pagan gods makes no sense from a Christian theological perspective and makes absolutely no sense in this crossover if we assume that the White God is the Demiurge. In my opinion, it makes more sense to assume that the White God and the Angels are in fact a usurping force that forced everyone to surrender under threat. Perhaps they are, as many believe, Devil Tiger or the three sidereals in a cloak. In any case, I think that Molly will eventually have to admit that her god really likes to creatively interpret the truth.
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I mean they canonically aren't and I'm not sure why that's your take in universe it's pretty true that mortals don't really have a full take on what God is at all. While butcher hasn't played the idea that God is more than just the abrahamic in universe too well he's as much said he is in wog. Also you know there's literal wog he's the creator of that universe. Also that it's not a retroactive thing either. Another thing to mention the God in dresdenverse isn't lying everything we hear about them in universe is interpretations of mortals not actually what the dude says.

Also why is the idea it's a hostile takeover the first idea you have for them and that getting gods to stop doing stuff in the mortal world makes no sense? He made stuff that made stuff and some of said stuff did their jobs well and then he decided it's time for them to pull back some? How is that so weird? Because theologically speaking God in Dresden files we've been told is not just Christian so theological shit doesn't make shit to explain him because that's clearly not all he is. Just like we've been told he doesn't care if he's worshipped which theologically speaking is very untrue.
 
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Degorium said:
They specifically are gods in the same way Naiads, Oceanaids, Dryads, Zephyrs and many other nature spirits across mythologies are gods which means they are the divine servants of the actual gods of those things more powerful than any mortal adjacent but only gods in the broadest sense of the word.
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What's unique about WoD's Hsien is that they were the messengers and agents of big G God, as the August Personage of Jade is made very clear to be another name for him. That then interacts with the Dresden Files cosmology because big G God has a privileged position above the likes of Zeus, etc.. All those creatures you mentioned existed in the WoD in parts of the Umbra, but if a Wan Kuei ate them it did nothing special, if just gave them basic chi. The Hsien were special and different as they had a special relationship to Heaven in a similar but different way to the Wan Kuei's special relationship with Heaven.

Although to be fair big G God had a privileged position in WoD as well
 
The white god is not a god of theology he's a god that mortals try to explain with theology. Some of it may be right to some extent but theology doesn't actually define them.just how people see them.
 
firefrog600 said:
I mean they canonically aren't and I'm not sure why that's your take in universe it's pretty true that mortals don't really have a full take on what God is at all. While butcher hasn't played the idea that God is more than just the abrahamic in universe too well he's as much said he is in wog. Also you know there's literal wog he's the creator of that universe. Also that it's not a retroactive thing either. Another thing to mention the God in dresdenverse isn't lying everything we hear about them in universe is interpretations of mortals not actually what the dude says.
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I don't think Butcher is the author of this quest. In this quest, many of his statements are most likely false. Hell, Mab backstory is different from his. I don't see why we should be bound by his canon and I don't think we should be when we have information as readers where the two settings are incompatible if the White God is the demiurge who created everything.

As I said, a creative interpretation of the truth. He created the universe.., This iteration. He is not omnipotent, just very strong and can keep the Raksha and others in check, but not destroy them. Most likely, he was able to somehow remake the gate to restrict them even more, but was not able to completely seal the holes left by past Wheels turns. He's not lying in the same way that Vader isn't Luke Skywalker's father. He's just giving people vague statements and letting them make mistakes by blaming their interpretation
 
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firefrog600 said:
I feel enough artillery still would kill things with agg regen. Mind you there are plenty of other powers to bypass that like intangibility or a literal immunity to things outside weaknesses.
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Ramirez disintegrated a bunch of uberghouls with entropy magic in White Night and they regenerated.
In combat time.

Im not saying they are immortal, but if disintegration beams arent killing you, then we got problems.

Ivar said:
This is supposed to be an argument against their power? Seriously, part of the setting has been infiltrated by Nemesis in the form of both fairy super powers. That our people have no defense against the Outsiders is not unique considering most of the setting is also folded like cardboard against them. Your argument is that if God wants to kill us, he will kill us... Well, okay, but we are not discussing God, we are discussing how attacks are usually carried out and they usually do not include this. And again, we do not know how the Outsiders (which are shadow puppets) work mechanically.
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1)Thats my point?
That they can handle most threats, but Outsiders arent most threats. And the Red Court explicitly uses Outsiders against priority targets. And even independent of the Reds, Outsiders have reason to give us grief.

2) Some of the Outsiders are shadow puppets, at least in this AU. Many, if not most, are not

BronzeTongue said:
Harry was unusually involved in everything to do with that war, and the way you're pinning those power levels is weird. Having lots of barons doesn't necessarily mean they have a lot of top end people. Vampiric generation games should very much be in play here.

Ariana was able to threaten the red king specifically because she was his direct childe and he was actively going senile. Her plan wasn't to fist fight him for control, it was to play politics around him taking advantage of his mental decline to turn everyone else against him.

Even odds he'd end up in a retirement mansion where people pretend he's still important like every other red to suffer the same decline. That or eaten to retain some of his power.

Their upgrade capabilities are never shown to be anything like what you're suggesting. It's wild speculation drawing conclusions from data points taken without the context they happened in.


Sanctuary is an entire planet, for all the logistical issues of using that leverage I do not buy one power from one region of the planet being able to run them over like that. They could certainly bottle us up and defeat our agenda, maybe wear us down and do lasting damage to our standing forces, but not just roid up and conquer the place.

Hell and the Outside are different animals, but the Red Court of all people are at most the FCF's peer group.
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No he wasnt. Harry spent the first five years of the war in Chicago, with his only involvement being when Duke Paolo Ortega came to Chicago to duel him. And even after he got conscripted into the Wardens he never left North America. His lack of involvement was a plot point; Chandler explicitly calls out how infrequently they see him.

In Changes he doesnt even know how the Warden rooms in Edinburgh are laid out.

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Her being his childe is not unique. Arianna explicitly says that the vast majority of the Red Court nobility, including the Lords, were raised to power by the Red King.
The night grew silent. Down in the stadium, there wasn't even the sound of wind. The silence gnawed at me, though Arianna looked relaxed.
"So," I said, "your dad is the Red King."
"Indeed. He created me, as he created all of the Thirteen and the better part of our nobility."
"One big bloodsucking Brady Bunch, huh? But I'll bet he missed all the PTA meetings."
The duchess studied me and shook her head. "I shall never understand why someone hasn't killed you before now."
"Wasn't for lack of trying," I said. "Hey, why do you suppose he set up the rules the way he did? If we'd gone by the Code Duello, there's a chance it could have been limited to a physical confrontation. Really seems to be taking away most of your advantages, doesn't he?"
She smiled. "A jaded person might consider it a sign of his weakness."
"Nice spin on that one. Purely out of curiosity, though: Once you kill me, what comes next?"
She lifted her shoulders in a shrug. "I continue to serve the Red Court to the best of my ability."
I showed her my teeth. "Meaning you're going to knock Big Red out of that chair, right?"
"That is more ambitious than reasonable," she said. "One of the Thirteen, I should think, will ascend to become Kukulcan."
"Creating an opening in the Lords of Outer Night," I said, getting it. "Murdering your father to get a promotion. You're all class."
"Cattle couldn't possibly understand."
"Couldn't understand that Daddy's losing it?" I asked. "That he's reverting into one of your blood slaves?"
Her mouth twitched, as if she were restraining it from twisting into a snarl. "It happens, betimes, to the aged," Arianna said. "I love and revere my father. But his time is done."
"Unless you lose," I said.
"I find that unlikely." She looked me up and down. "What a . . . novel outfit."
"I wore it especially for you," I said, and fluttered my eyelashes at her.
She didn't look amused. "Most of what I do is business. Impersonal. But I'm going to enjoy this."
I dropped the wiseacre attitude. The growing force of my anger burned it away. "Taking my kid isn't impersonal," I said. "It's a Kevorkianesque cry for help."
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Arianna is clear that his being deposed means he dies.
There is no country for old men in the Red Court, no pool of retired elders taking their leisure.
So killing him means that she thinks the Court can do without his power in wartime.


Yes? They are a planet.
I did not say that the Outsiders, or the Fomor, can conquer Sanctuary. I did say, and I stand by it, that Sanctuary cannot hold that portal against the sort of force that the one percent can bring to bear, whether its infiltrators or just raiders.

We had fiat-backed borders for a reason. Breaching them has Consequences for our relative security.
 
Ivar said:
I don't think Butcher is the author of this quest. In this quest, many of his statements are most likely false. Hell, Mab backstory is different from his. I don't see why we should be bound by his canon and I don't think we should be when we have information as readers where the two settings are incompatible if the White God is the demiurge who created everything.

As I said, a creative interpretation of the truth. He created the universe.., This iteration. He is not omnipotent, just very strong and can keep the Raksha and others in check, but not destroy them. Most likely, he was able to somehow remake the gate to restrict them even more, but was not able to completely seal the holes left by past Wheels turns. He's not lying in the same way that Vader isn't Luke Skywalker's father. He's just giving people vague statements and letting them make mistakes by blaming their interpretation
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In fairness I doubt the white God created everything in Dresden files universe just the universe and many many many other timelines. Also I guess a bunch of his children and other shit too.

Since you know butcher as much said fucking Star Wars exists somewhere out there in his multiverse. God in his setting seems more like an omnipotent deity but I doubt he's responsible for everything.
 
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Ivar said:
I don't think Butcher is the author of this quest. In this quest, many of his statements are most likely false. Hell, Mab backstory is different from his. I don't see why we should be bound by his canon and I don't think we should be when we have information as readers where the two settings are incompatible if the White God is the demiurge who created everything.

As I said, a creative interpretation of the truth. He created the universe.., This iteration. He is not omnipotent, just very strong and can keep the Raksha and others in check, but not destroy them. Most likely, he was able to somehow remake the gate to restrict them even more, but was not able to completely seal the holes left by past Wheels turns. He's not lying in the same way that Vader isn't Luke Skywalker's father. He's just giving people vague statements and letting them make mistakes by blaming their interpretation
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Oh that's fair in quest at least I thought you were straight debating canon and I just disliked that. They probably made this iteration of canon and holled up that wall to some degree. Also a whole bunch of other stuff. They also probably created a fair few of the ancestors of gods but I doubt they created everything there are probably entire species with no direct relation to God other than being in this universes iteration. Also in fairness it's not like the White God said they're omnipotent that sounds more like something mortals attributed to them. But I highly doubt there was a hostile takeover by the white god in quest for this iteration. Now for the last iteration of reality oh boy probably though it might of been a new being born from the ashes to some degree with not much left to takeover.
 
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