Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I don't think this is the time to be putting the FCF forward as a trading partner.

The LoC isn't equipped, trained, or institutionally inclined to deal with that sort of undertaking. It would be too far beyond their capabilities or resources, so other aspects of the government would have to be brought in, bureaucrats and politicians would both become involved. They would want to formalize and regulate the trade, and worse, exploit it. Greed and ambition would rear it's ugly head and introduce complications we just don't want or need.

Better to simply be an ally known and recognized by the LoC. For now.

[X] As a willing ally against foes who threaten all, like those who caused the recent incident
 
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Well if we had taken the AP action to introduce our kingdom to the Library I can't really think of a better way that we could have done it then this.
 
Important reminder - we are not just talking to LoC. Harrowmont, in his capacity as the supernatural ruler of the city of Las Vegas, is also a side in this talks. He's not our minion, he's not a member of LoC. He is a party with his own jnterests. So, for example, trade relationships could be established with him.
 
At least not on the idea that it can just do it.
Well we have no reason to believe it can't other than speculation it depends on the clone charm mechanics. Molly can't be infected but she has the Exaltion and the clones wouldn't. Doesn't really matter how unsubtle it is there are a lot of ways to go about setting that up is what I'm getting at and we are for sure Nemesis's nemesis if you don't count players like Uriel.
They would want to formalize and regulate the trade, and worse, exploit it.
Not really possible to exploit since all trade would have to go through Molly by default though. I think people have a misconception on how much trade we'd be able to do while also questing.
 
Well we have no reason to believe it can't other than speculation it depends on the clone charm mechanics. Molly can't be infected but she has the Exaltion and the clones wouldn't. Doesn't really matter how unsubtle it is there are a lot of ways to go about setting that up is what I'm getting at and we are for sure Nemesis's nemesis if you don't count players like Uriel.

Not really possible to exploit since all trade would have to go through Molly by default though. I think people have a misconception on how much trade we'd be able to do while also questing.
Exploitation not being possible wouldn't necessarily occur to many people. Or they would just assume more effort is needed. Or more pressure.

And exploitation is a distant concern compared to the potential hassle of attempted regulation. Even if we never had any intention of bringing fissile material through to Earth, you better believe the government won't take our word for it.
 
Molly can't be infected but she has the Exaltion and the clones wouldn't. Doesn't really matter how unsubtle it is there are a lot of ways to go about setting that up is what I'm getting at and we are for sure Nemesis's nemesis if you don't count players like Uriel.
And if a clone of our is infected* so what? We plan on merging back with our clones fairly frequently to sync up memories so that Nemesis doing a long drawn out scheme for what exactly?

*I think it's unlikely or even impossible considering that they are supposed to have perfect loyalty, but for the sake of argument.
 
Dude everything that you know Nemesis knows if it infects you because it's literally in your brain and soul. That's kind of a huge problem if Nemesis suddenly knows of the Crown and everything else.
I don't think that's actually true. Now this might be supposition or me reading too much into what has been said. But Nemesis infection isn't actually a merging, it's infected you it is sitting behind your eyes looking out your eyes, can hear you when you speak and maybe hear your thoughts occasionally but it's not actually a part of you mind or Soul that's why it has to pick the times when it nudges actions because if it became a part of your body and soul anyone with a significant gift of sight would be able to see it. That's why we could see it by looking behind Meave's shoulder but not in her.
 
[X] As a willing ally against foes who threaten all, like those who caused the recent incident
 
if it became a part of your body and soul anyone with a significant gift of sight would be able to see it.
Nemesis can be seen by the Sight. It just also has the ability to shield itself from such things by showing you the infected instead if it chooses to.
 
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[X] As a willing ally against foes who threaten all, like those who caused the recent incident
 
@DragonParadox is this vote about LoC only, or do we include how we describe the courts to Harrowmont too? And do I understand correctly that saying we are an ally in the fight against the darkness doesn't stop us from trading? It's about the primary focus and initial impression, right?
 
@DragonParadox is this vote about LoC only, or do we include how we describe the courts to Harrowmont too? And do I understand correctly that saying we are an ally in the fight against the darkness doesn't stop us from trading? It's about the primary focus and initial impression, right?

I was thinking he would be told what you told the White Council, but if you guys want more fine control of that it's fine as well.
 
I was thinking he would be told what you told the White Council, but if you guys want more fine control of that it's fine as well.
Nah, I think it's ok.

Ok, so, I think as far as first impressions go, allies against the darkness is a good idea.

[X] As a willing ally against foes who threaten all, like those who caused the recent incident
-[X] Use the crown on the record of the call to see who Von Trier's first contact experience is with


I am curious and this doesn't really cost us. I just hope that this doesn't preclude us from establishing trade. I don't want to exploit our side in favor of Earth. They give us their allegiance, noblesse oblige is fully in effect.
 
[X] As a willing ally against foes who threaten all, like those who caused the recent incident
-[X] Use the crown on the record of the call to see who Von Trier's first contact experience is with

As for the PowerPoint: 10/10. No notes.
 
Maybe you should have looked over this documentation with more than half an hour before the meeting. "A power point? You make a power point about our goals and intentions?
This is deeply hilarious, and will probably be the butt of jokes for decades after the fact.

"When we first met genuine aliens power point was already there"

"The saying should have gone slide decks and taxes, since death is apparently negotiable"

" Of course the pentagon dimension comes with fancy guns and power point, what else would they have?"

The feds are fucking obsessed with those things. :V
 
We know that Nemesis can infect someone by just getting an infected's blood on them. As was shown by the roll to try and infect the summer maiden. We also know that Nemesis must have a limit of some kind but that doesn't mean it can't easily take people if need be.

Well then, guess we lost.

It was nice playing this game, but since the opponent can do that whenever it wants....

More seriously, that's the part I am firmly disputing, the idea that it can do it easily to our clones, if it was that easy, even with limits on numbers, then it would simply take the guys as high as possible as fast as possible whenever it can.

Yet it doesn't, and the reason can't be pure sentimentality for current infected forms, as that wouldn't mean anything when it has a free spot.

Infecting via blood is not subtle, as Degorium pointed out, and the other means cannot be that easy, or it would already have won.

And I still doubt that our clones are as naked in the specific department of possession as some think, that goes against one of the core part of the charm, that they are loyal.

They are supposed to be a part of us, not completely separate beings, even if they have bare standards bodies, there is no reason they would have bare standards minds and souls for the purpose of possession.

Too bad Dragonparadox would tell that *you do not have the charm so you cannot roll to know how it would work* if asked about that (which makes sense, even if it is annoying in this particular case), as it would allow to quickly end this debate, one way or another.

As is, we have to buy to see.
 
We know that Nemesis can infect someone by just getting an infected's blood on them. As was shown by the roll to try and infect the summer maiden. We also know that Nemesis must have a limit of some kind but that doesn't mean it can't easily take people if need be.
Yes, but Molly's clones are still expressions of Primordial!Molly's soul. Nemesis infects people by attaching to / hiding inside / behind their souls. Molly's clones' souls are still Molly's soul, and it shouldn't be able to infect it.
 
Nemesis can be seen by the Sight. It just also has the ability to shield itself from such things by showing you the infected instead if it chooses to.
Do you have any Text or quotes about that? Closest thing I can find is about Three eye user who in Harry's sight The touch of he who walks behind can be seen, not even he who walks behind just his touch. Also, I'm not sure that tracks if he was merging with people on such a level that their thoughts are in constant connection bonds like that go both ways, especially in Dresden file where mind Magic is inherently destructive to the people was used on. Finally how would he hide from any being that had powerful sight if he was intertwined in such a manner because those kinds of things are inherently visible if you are bound to the mind and soul of a person you occupied the same space you can't be a part of them and also not to be a part of them that's why he walks beside not behind or before but beside you can't hide as someone you have to hide beside them over their shoulders speaking in their ear a little bit as befitting the adversary.
 
They are supposed to be a part of us, not completely separate beings, even if they have bare standards bodies, there is no reason they would have bare standards minds and souls for the purpose of possession.
Yes, but Molly's clones are still expressions of Primordial!Molly's soul.
This is just speculation again. The running theory was that Nemesis can't infect Molly because of the Exaltion making it so there "isn't any room" as she put it rather than how big or metaphysically heavy her soul is.

We were also told during the portal debate that someone could in theory set off a spell in Molly's soul and have it take effect on her rather than be shrugged off without an antishaping charm. The clone charm would make the clones out of her soul but it's debatable if they are actively connected and charm enforced loyalty is irrelevant here because Molly's charms have been contested before twice when people thought they'd be absolute in effect.

Once when our armor was dispelled another with the Blampire soul getting potentially snatched from us even with the soul killer charm.
 
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This is just speculation again. The running theory was that Nemesis can't infect Molly because of the Exaltion making it so there "isn't any room" as she put it rather than how big or metaphysically heavy her soul is.

We were also told during the portal debate that someone could in theory set off a spell in Molly's soul and have it take effect on her rather than be shrugged off without an antishaping charm. The clone charm would make the clones out of her soul but it's debatable if they are actively connected and charm enforced loyalty is irrelevant here because Molly's charms have been contested before twice when people thought they'd be absolute in effect.

Once when our armor was dispelled another with the Blampire soul getting potentially snatched from us even with the soul killer charm.

It is speculation that is based on what the charm is supposed to represent though.

Plus, it doesn't matter anyway, if Nemesis can infect our clones that easily, then our friends, and Isabella, and Charity, and our brother and sisters, and so on and so forth, are absolutely fair game and already infected.
 
Backlog of questions to answer.
Yesterday AND today. Will hopefully get to them tonight; Im not ignoring you @Yog
First, the simple fact that if it was that easy for Nemesis to infect anyone, then we have already lost anyway, as that means it already infected anyone that mattered and that is that.
It really is that easy for Nemesis. In fact, its that easy for a lot of Outsiders.
Canonically.
We know that Nemesis can infect someone by just getting an infected's blood on them. As was shown by the roll to try and infect the summer maiden. We also know that Nemesis must have a limit of some kind but that doesn't mean it can't easily take people if need be.
Following up on this specifically, because you are right, and Nfestation can be that fast, and that quick for even powerful Fae.

Its explicitly a major plot point in Cold Days that the Outsiders infested Cat Sith, Eldest Malk, so quickly and smoothly that Dresden, who was right next door having a brief meeting with Summer Lady Lily, didnt notice. And none of the other Summer Fae in the area noticed either.

There was no fight, no opportunity for Eldest Malk to get away or make a ruckus.
She brought us right alongside it, and once again I leapt from the back of the Harley. I hit the side of the tug pretty hard, but was able to get the fingers of my left hand around the top of the rail, and with a few kicks managed to swing myself up onto the deck. I landed in a crouch, clutching the rifle, got my bearings, and headed toward a stairwell that would lead me to the boat's bridge.
I went up it as quietly as I could, which is pretty damned quiet for a guy my size, Winchester at the ready. The bridge of the tug was big enough to merit its own enclosed space, and I slipped up to the door, took a breath, then ripped it open, lifting the Winchester as I did.
The bridge was empty, the wheel secured with a pair of large plastic ties. There was a piece of paper taped to the wheel, and on it was written in large black marker, LOOK BEHIND YOU.
I started to turn, but a cannonball hit me between the shoulder blades. I flew forward onto the bridge and slammed my head against the Plexiglas forward windows. I fell back from that, stunned, and a heavy weight hit me from the side, slamming me into a bulkhead, which felt almost exactly like being slammed into a steel wall.
I wound up prone, my face to the deck, and once more the heavy weight slammed into me, landing on my back.
And Cat Sith, who had told me not to turn my back on anyone, purred, "Wizard, Knight, fool. Too ignorant even to know how to die properly." His skin-crawling voice came out in a throaty buzz next to my ear. "Allow me to educate you."
============
The reasonable thing to do would have been to whimper or flinch or just freak out and look for the nearest exit. But instead of doing any of those things, I felt a chill settle over my brain, and a very cold, calm part of me studied the situation objectively.
"Join, hide, or die," I said. I heard the faint echo of the Wild Hunt's screech in my voice.
"Excuse me?" Cat Sith said.
"You have excellent hearing," I said. "But I will repeat myself. Join. Hide. Or die. You know the laws of the Hunt."
"I do know them, wizard. And once I have slain you, the Hunt will be mine to do with as I please."
"The real Cat Sith wouldn't be having this conversation with me, you know. He'd have killed me by now."
A blow struck the back of my head, sharp, painful, but not debilitating. "I am Cat Sith. The one. The only."
I turned my head slightly and said, "So why do I still have a spine?"
And I threw an elbow at the weight on my back. I connected with something, hard, and slammed it off me. It hit the other wall of the bridge, and I flung myself to my feet in time to see the large, lean form of Cat Sith thrash his tail and bound at me.
I ducked him, moving forward under his leap, and spun, and it left the two of us facing each other across the full length of the bridge.
"Slow," I said. "I've seen him move. Cat Sith is faster than that."
A hideous growling sound came from the form of the malk. "I am he."
"Get me a Coke," I snarled.
"What?"
"You heard me, Mittens. Get me a freaking Coke and do it now."

Sith remained in place, as if locked to the floor, though his whole body was quivering, his claws sheathing and unsheathing in rhythm. But he didn't fly at me, ripping and tearing, either.
"You see," I said, "Cat Sith is a creature of Faerie, and he swore an oath to Queen Mab to obey her commands. She commanded him to obey mine. And I just gave you a command, kitty. Did Mab release you from her command? Did she suspend the duties of her vassal?"
Sith snarled again, his eyes getting wider and rounder, his tail thrashing around wildly.

"They got to you, didn't they?" I said. "They jumped you back at the Botanic Gardens while you were covering my exit. Freaking Sharkface was watching the whole thing and he got you."
Sith began quivering so hard that he was jitterbugging back and forth in place on the floor, his head twitching, his fur standing on end and then abruptly lying flat again.
"Fight it, Sith," I urged him quietly. "It doesn't have to win. Fight it."
For a second, I thought I saw something of Cat Sith's smug, contemptuous self-assurance on the malk's face. And then it was gone. Just gone. Everything went away, and the malk stood for a second with its head down. Then it lifted its head and the motion was subtly wrong, something that simply didn't have the grace I'd seen in the elder malk before. It faced me for a moment and then it spoke, its voice absent of anything like personality. "A pity. I would have been more useful to them as an active, covert asset."
I shuddered at the utter absence in that voice. I wasn't talking to Sith anymore.
I was speaking with the adversary.
"Like Mab wouldn't have figured it out," I said. "Like she did when you infected Lea."

"Further conversation is not useful to our design," Not-Sith said, and then the malk's form flew at me in a blur.
It was a testament to the power of the Winter Knight's mantle and the Wild Hunt's energy that I survived that first leap at all. Sith struck straight at my throat. I got my arms in the way. The black shadow mask of the Hunt over my arms and chest blew apart into splinters, dispersing some of the impact energy of the malk's spectacular leap, and instead of pulping me against the wall behind me, he just pounded me into it with tooth-rattling force.
This wasnt even a Nemesis possession.
Dresden thinks it was Sharkface, He Who Walks Before, who was responsible for subverting Cat Sith, and given as that was the Walker we see in this book, I tend to agree.


Nemesis has unspecified limits about how many people it can simultaneously possess. However? Nemesis is not the only Outsider who can possess or mindcontrol people; its canonically a signature tactic of the Outsider faction. Nemesis claim to fame is that he apparently is the best at it, and the most powerful Walker, and can do it to multiple people simultaneously.

We canonically know that Vittorio Malvora was also Outsider-possessed, and the Gatekeeper explicitly scans medical parties at the Outer Gates because Outsiders have been known to make their way into Creation by possessing soldiers, medics and injured soldiers who go out to fight beyond the Gates.
The Gatekeeper lowered his hood.
He had short hair that was still thick and gleamed silver, but his features were weathered, as if from long years under harsh sunlight. His skin was paler now, but there was still something of the desert on his skin. His face was long, his brows still dark and full. He had a double scar on his left eyebrow and cheek, two long lines that went straight down, a lot like mine, only deeper and thicker and all the way to his jawline, and they were much softer with long years of healing. Maybe he hadn't been as good at flinching as I was, because he'd lost the eye beneath the scar. One of his eyes was nearly black, it was so dark. The other had been replaced with . . .
I looked around me. Yes, definitely. The other eye had been replaced with the crystalline material that was identical to that which had been used to create the gates and the walls around them.
"Steel," I said.
"Pardon?" he asked.
"Your, uh, other eye. It was steel before."
"I'm sure it looked like steel," he said. "The disguise is necessary when I'm not here."
"Your job is so secret, your false eye gets a disguise?" I asked. "Guess I see why you miss Council meetings."
He inclined his head and ruffled his fingers through mussed, tousled hood-hair. "It can be quiet for years here, sometimes. And others . . ." He spread his hands. "But they need a good eye here to be sure that the things that must remain outside do not slip in unnoticed."
"Inside the wounded," I guessed. "Or returning troops. Or medics."

"You've become aware of the adversary," he said, his tone one of firm approval. "Excellent. I was certain your particular pursuits would get you killed long before you got a chance to learn."
"How can I help?" I asked him.
He leaned his head back and then a slow smile reasserted itself on his face. "I know something of the responsibilities you've chosen to take up," he said, "to say nothing of the problems you've created for yourself that you haven't found out about yet. And still, in the face of learning that our world spins out its days under siege, you offer to help me? I think you and I could be friends."
"Wait," I said. "What problems? I haven't been trying to create problems."
"Oh," he said, waving a hand. "You've danced about in the shadows at the edge of life now, young man. That's no small thing, to go into those shadows and come back again—you've no idea the kind of attention you've attracted."
"Oh," I said. "Good. Because the pace was starting to slow down so much that I was getting bored."
At that, Rashid tilted his head back and laughed. "Would you be offended if I called you Harry?"
"No. Because it's my name."
"Exactly," he said. "Harry, I know you have questions. I can field a very few before I go."
I nodded, thinking. "Okay," I said. "First, how do you know if the adversary has . . . infested someone?"
"Experience," he said. "Decades of it. The Sight can help, but . . ." Rashid hesitated. I recognized it instantly, the hiccup in one's thoughts when one stumbled over a truly hideous memory gained with the Sight, like I'd had with—
Ugh.
—the naagloshii.
"I don't recommend making a regular practice of it," he continued. "It's an art, not a skill, and it takes time. Time, or a bit of questionable attention from the Fates and a ridiculously enormous tool." He tapped a finger against his false eye.
I blinked, even though he didn't, and looked up at the massive gates stretching overhead. "Hell's bells. The gates . . . they're . . . some kind of spiritual CAT scanner?"
"Among many other things," he said. "But it's one of their functions, yes. Mostly it means that the adversary cannot use such tactics effectively here.
As long as the Gatekeeper is vigilant, it rarely tries."
The horns sounded again, and the muscles in his jaw tensed. "Next question."
I hate trying to be smart under time pressure. "This," I said, pointing up at the gates. "What the hell? How long has this attack been going on?"
"Always," he said. "There are always Outsiders trying to tear their way in. There are always forces in place to stop them. In our age, it is the task of Winter to defend these boundaries, with the help of certain others to support them. Think of them as . . . an immune system for the mortal world."
I felt my eyes get wide. "An immune system . . . What happens if it . . . you know, if it breaks down for a bit?"
"Pardon?" the Gatekeeper asked.
"Uh, it gets a glitch. Like, if somebody new took over or something and things had to reorganize around here . . ."
"Most years, it would pose no major difficulty," he said.
"What about this year?"
"This year," he said, "it could be problematic."
"Problematic."
"Rather severely so." Rashid studied my face and then started to nod. "I see. There are things happening back in Winter. That's why Mother Summer brought you here. To show you what was at stake."
I swallowed and nodded. "No pressure or anything."
You are literally at risk in the middle of an active battle, in front of your comrades.
Detection of such attempts is what the Gatekeeper's false eye is for.
And explicitly one of the functions of the Outer Gates.
 
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By the way, for the argument against it that the clones would be vulnerable to Nemesis:
To clarify, since I was the last one to bring that particular issue up, the point wasn't that nemesis would brainjack them. It's that they're vulnerable to perfectly normal force.

Nemesis telling its Sandra level operatives "physically kidnap that clone, then being it to the torture dungeon" is entirely valid. Remember they're only immune to magic aimed at their intimacies too. So someone who simply wants to look through their memories could read them like a book.

Finding a copy of Molly enthralled by a corrupt whamp and drained to death while they use their demon to pluck secrets from her mind would be very awful for everyone involved.

If you put a copy of Molly out in the world someone is going to make a grab for it with a level of force appropriate to Molly's presence. Yes death curses are a thing; but consider Orpheus for a moment, or all of the various Naagoloshii's victims. That is clearly not a foolproof plan.

There are some options that make it more viable though. @Odysseus2099 has some homebrew that seems like an excellent bit of infernal cheating if it gets brought in and allows positive synergies:
X-ray and Telescopic vision
Stub quote for reference.

If we can say use that to see around our clones and transmit vision effects along the connection defending them ourselves or SBS-ing the clone would make it much harder, but not impossible, to use the clones against us.

Nemesis isn't an idiot and has a lot of tools to use here.
I wonder how a trade proposal between the U.S. and the five fold court would look like. It's fairly obvious what the five fold court can provide technology goods and heavy metals, but what does they U.S. have that they want? Especially when you consider throughput limitations.

Do you think that we could buy elder vampire bodies with enriched uranium? Seems like a fair deal to me.
If we can get bulk trade working then agricultural luxuries could be a thing. Spices are a classic for a reason.

I doubt chocolate exists in the FCF for example, and growing it could be a pain. Whatever our people use in its place could also be popular.

Additionally; while the FCF is significantly more advanced than earth, that doesn't mean there's no interesting tech on the mundane side. Radically different conditions lead to radically different development, and cross pollination could be valuable. Especially since earth does it all without magic.

One way isn't better than the other, but they could mix very well. Suppose FCF solved a problem in a new drone model by say using runes to alter the properties of ultralight aviation materials to handle their operational environment, where earthlings worked out the chemistry to make something similarly effective.

If both work who's to say which is better? Either way if you can put the enchantments on the better baseline for even higher performances there's clear value to both.

On the pure magic side; reagents. That's a simple one because what's easy to get in one place can be hard in another.

Dresden made harvesting sunlight look pretty basic, even if using it might be harder. What do you suppose that's worth in a world where there aren't any stars? How about fruits grown on lighting alone, or iron powder collected from the border between civilization and untamed darkness?

Trivial effort from both parties in exchange for significant profits.

Edit: error
 
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