Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Short of actually scheduled formal events, the high Sidhe appear to be less
And even there, they have their idiosyncrasies.
Remember how the Redcap was wearing a red Cincinatti ballcap at Mab's official reception for Dresden in Cold Days?
They were messing around in the mortal world. I highly doubt that the Sidhe wear booty shorts to court.

This may not be a planned event, but it should be self evident that if you're going to speak with the president in their official capacity then you go in formalwear. If you know them personally and are meeting up for drinks then sure go casual, but not in the office.

Not that I expect it to cause us serious trouble necessarily, but it's incongruent and wasted an opportunity. The fey enjoying spontaneity doesn't mean that we need to present our motives as fundamentally spontaneous.


I happen to be of the persuasion that introducing randomness into a high-stakes negotiation is distinctly contra-indicated.
Especially when the matters involved are Nemesis infiltration and Summer Court internal balance.

Under more normal social circumstances, I would have no problem letting Molly play games.
This isnt one of them
The entire point of this vote one way or the other is to play games, because the fey definitely will at very least up till the point where we get to business.

Your preferred opening move in the game is still playing it.

I'm not even convinced it'll really make things more chaotic than they otherwise would be. A mortal doing what we're doing is unusual without really addressing how or why.


To adapt your White House analogy?
I think the best I can come up with is that we're showing up in a helicopter with a major European intelligence figure and slipping in a side door, not walking up to the front entrance and through the press pool.

At least, thats my impression
We're going to walk through the city openly where any of the fey nobility can see us with their various super senses. It's not like the fey would allow us to stealth in or open a way into the throne room. Especially since we're going through the nearest Summer crossing and they can't have anticipated a need to set something up for this occasion.

The point of this warning from Ivy was that we're going to be under observation from Summer beyond Titania herself Hence the discussion of court manners and practices.

They're going to see a really strange demon-mortal already known to be doing some sort of business with the winter queens go in for an emergency meeting and then have serious shit go down in short order. Potentially obviously outsider related shit at that.

The fey are many things, but stupid isn't one of them.
 
[X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
-[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
-[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar
 
They were messing around in the mortal world. I highly doubt that the Sidhe wear booty shorts to court.
They wear less. Cold Days chapter 4
The crowd of creatures parted suddenly, and a girl stepped out of their ranks. She paused for a moment, for dramatic effect, and to give everyone time to admire her.
She'd changed her hair again. Now it was a kind of extra-wide Mohawk, long except for where it had been shaved completely away from the sides of her head, where the cut could show off the tips of her gently tapering ears. It was still colored in all glacial shades of blue and green and deep violet, and hung down over much of one side of her face, allowing her to borrow enough of Veronica Lake's vibe to give her wide, wide eyes a little extra hint of cheerily wicked mystery. She was tallish, for a girl, maybe five-ten, and built with that perfect balance of lean and lush proportions that some girls are lucky enough to have for maybe a year, the kind of look that gets girls that age in trouble with men who should be old enough to know better.
And she was naked. Gloriously, disconcertingly naked—and just as fresh and vibrant and unspoiled-looking as she'd been the first time I'd met her, most of ten years before.
Only, you know, she'd been less naked then.
Man, was I ever noticing that part.

"Here's the birthday boy!" Maeve said in a singsong voice, flinging both arms up. She started toward me in a slow and slightly exaggerated walk. Technically, she wasn't entirely naked. She had silver piercings at the tips of her breasts, beneath her lip, in her navel, and probably elsewhere. I didn't let myself look quite that close. Her flawless pale skin was also spangled with gemstones. I don't know how they'd been attached, but they clung to her and sent little flashes of color glittering around the cavern when she moved. They were concentrated most densely around her . . . well . . . She'd been, ah, vajazzled.
She came slinking over to me in the silence, her green eyes framed in a quasi-mask of gemstones and some kind of henna inking, and she absolutely smoldered with sex. Not that she'd never been suggestive before, but this was taking things to a whole new level.
That was Maeve in the nude, with some henna, piercings and a sprinkling of jewels.

Eldest Gruff was at the same meeting in a plain robe of undyed linen.
So was Kringle, dressed in his Santa Claus garb.
And the Erlking, wearing hunting leathers. He and Kringle are the only ones we see armed.

This may not be a planned event, but it should be self evident that if you're going to speak with the president in their official capacity then you go in formalwear. If you know them personally and are meeting up for drinks then sure go casual, but not in the office.

Not that I expect it to cause us serious trouble necessarily, but it's incongruent and wasted an opportunity. The fey enjoying spontaneity doesn't mean that we need to present our motives as fundamentally spontaneous.
We have seen formal meetings with all the Fae Queens, Mothers to Ladies, and thats not actually true.
It was not true for Odin when Dresden met him formally in Changes, or in Skin Game.
Its never been true for Lara Raith.

The entire point of this vote one way or the other is to play games, because the fey definitely will at very least up till the point where we get to business. Your preferred opening move in the game is still playing it.

I'm not even convinced it'll really make things more chaotic than they otherwise would be. A mortal doing what we're doing is unusual without really addressing how or why.
I dont agree.
This is not an occasion or situation to play games IMO.

We're going to walk through the city openly where any of the fey nobility can see us with their various super senses. It's not like the fey would allow us to stealth in or open a way into the throne room. Especially since we're going through the nearest Summer crossing and they can't have anticipated a need to set something up for this occasion.

The point of this warning from Ivy was that we're going to be under observation from Summer beyond Titania herself Hence the discussion of court manners and practices.

They're going to see a really strange demon-mortal already known to be doing some sort of business with the winter queens go in for an emergency meeting and then have serious shit go down in short order. Potentially obviously outsider related shit at that.

The fey are many things, but stupid isn't one of them.
We are walking with the Archive, who is explicitly characterized as a junior Queen-tier Power, and one who had the demonstrated skill to veil herself and her occult power from Fallen Angels in Small Favor.

I suspect that while Molly's aura is strong enough that her coming to Avalon is going to be...difficult, if not impossible to conceal, we are going to meet only as many people as Ivy actually wants to talk to.
She runs the Oblivion War, whose watchword is secrecy. No way they dont already have protocols for quiet meetings.
 
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Current Tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Dec 2, 2023 at 6:18 PM, finished with 77 posts and 29 votes.

  • [X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
    -[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
    -[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
    [X] As Molly Carpenter, jeans and a T-shirt, you are above all else human
    [X] You come Exalted, clad in armor singing of ruin and glory, your blade of fire at your side.
    [X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
    [X] Write-in: As Molly Carpenter, jeans and a T-shirt and a sword of fire on your hip, you are- not only, but above all else- human
    [X] As all of them at once, reflected in the eyes of beholder: jeans and a t-shirt, yes, but a shirt of finest tokatli spider silk and in a latest fashion trend of the city of fountains, a pair of emerald earrings in the shape of your mark blazing in your ears, and your sword on your belt, itself clad in an intricate floral scabbard.
    -[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
    -[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
    [X] As Molly Carpenter, jeans and a T-shirt, you are above all else human
    -[x] But I'll take a glow up. A little more make up, sparkle, and some flowers and feathers will move me from everyday to ingenue.
 
[X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
-[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
-[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
 
[X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
-[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
-[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
 
My vote change didn't register.

[X] Yog

That was Maeve in the nude, with some henna, piercings and a sprinkling of jewels.

Eldest Gruff was at the same meeting in a plain robe of undyed linen.
So was Kringle, dressed in his Santa Claus garb.
And the Erlking, wearing hunting leathers. He and Kringle are the only ones we see armed.
Maeve isn't a role model, and she was basically important enough to do what she wanted on her home turf unless Mab was annoyed by it.

Formalwear doesn't always mean a tux or something, white robes seem reasonable for the Eldest Gruff. Odin and Erlking were basically in the uniform for their mantles.


Nobody else was pulling stunts like them that I recall.


I dont agree.
This is not an occasion or situation to play games IMO.
This is entirely playing a game, and to be honest I'm more annoyed you're denying it than by tbe difference in approach.

The explicit intent is to manipulate through apperance because the Summer fey are even more obsessed with it than than the most picky mortal. You're just trying to sell your preference as the default natural one that doesn't present issue. Which is sort of funny Molly would be context sensitive in the mortal world and show up with a more formal image to small claims court than a negotiation with Titania.


We are walking with the Archive, who is explicitly characterized as a junior Queen-tier Power, and one who had the demonstrated skill to veil herself and her occult power from Fallen Angels in Small Favor.

I suspect that while Molly's aura is strong enough that her coming to Avalon is going to be...difficult, if not impossible to conceal, we are going to meet only as many people as Ivy actually wants to talk to.
She runs the Oblivion War, whose watchword is secrecy. No way they dont already have protocols for quiet meetings.
Secure contact info maybe, but I'd be shocked if Ivy has permission to sneak into the heart of Summer. That's way too significant a weak point to prevent to a foreign power, even a friendly one.

There's also the potential issue of someone noticing and taking a shot because they detected an invisible person but not exactly who they were. The Archive is impossibly good, but there's a difference between hiding from a seeking party in neutral space and walking into the heart of someone's power undetected.

The high fey have some very effective members, and in that place they're backed by everything from wards to the local nature of the nevernever being biased in their favor.
 
Since the vote is tied, 13 to 13 when you add in @ClawClawBite's vote I'm going to leave this up a little longer.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 3, 2023 at 5:02 AM, finished with 87 posts and 31 votes.

  • [X] As Molly Carpenter, jeans and a T-shirt, you are above all else human
    [X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
    -[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
    -[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
    [X] You come Exalted, clad in armor singing of ruin and glory, your blade of fire at your side.
    [X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
    [X] Write-in: As Molly Carpenter, jeans and a T-shirt and a sword of fire on your hip, you are- not only, but above all else- human
    [X] As all of them at once, reflected in the eyes of beholder: jeans and a t-shirt, yes, but a shirt of finest tokatli spider silk and in a latest fashion trend of the city of fountains, a pair of emerald earrings in the shape of your mark blazing in your ears, and your sword on your belt, itself clad in an intricate floral scabbard.
    -[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
    -[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
    [X] As Molly Carpenter, jeans and a T-shirt, you are above all else human
    -[x] But I'll take a glow up. A little more make up, sparkle, and some flowers and feathers will move me from everyday to ingenue.


Also since we do have a queen vs mortal dichotomy some thoughts on what it might mean and what you could achieve with one or the other

Presenting as a human Molly would not be fooling one, her reputation and her aura precedes her, but she also is human on a fundamental level which the more insightful of the court might notice as one of those hidden signifies they like so much. That means she is no more bound than a mortal which in a roundabout way is a statement of power. On the other hand if they do not see deep enough they could as some have said take from all this that you did not take all this seriously. Last but not least it could invite challenges to see if you will break character

Presenting as a queen is a lot more straightforward, it is making this into international relations. No one can claim you are not taking this seriously, but your general aura is icy winds and murdering plants which is at least a little off putting and more so when you are making it obvious. Titania herself might take it as a challenge, especially in light that you approached Lilly and are at cross-purposes with her plans. On the other hand if between Ivy and yourself the introduction goes well you are set, you have an in with Winter, Summer and the White Council, that if three major powers that acknowledge you. You could for instance go join the Accords, even if you do not that is a tacit acknowledgement that you and your realm matter.
 
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[X] As Molly Carpenter, jeans and a T-shirt, you are above all else human

Let's delay joining the Big Boy's table until we're more prepared; everybody already takes us seriously as an immortal-killer, let them adjust to the new reality before introducing a whole new world to them.
 
We are really consistently not taking chances to change things.

This is minor, recognition from Summer will come anyway, but it's still a point where we waste opportunity.

The biggest one was not using the White Court evidence of course, but it's still a frequent issue besides that.
We are making far too few waves, beyond what we can't avoid by being what we are.

I'll be honest, if this were my game rather than a group effort, I probably would have started by jumping into the big-kids pool and then just tried to survive for the next few arcs.
Something like making an enemy out of Mab by freeing the Winter Knight, or going aggressively after the Thule from the moment we had the list, or rooting out the rot in the White Council with fire and sword. Whatever.
Just making a big splash on principle and then enjoying the desperate fight for our life that follows.

[X] Yog
 
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[X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
-[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
-[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
 
[X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
-[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
-[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.


She does represent more than just her, a first impression could be important.
 
Maeve isn't a role model, and she was basically important enough to do what she wanted on her home turf unless Mab was annoyed by it. Formalwear doesn't always mean a tux or something, white robes seem reasonable for the Eldest Gruff. Odin and Erlking were basically in the uniform for their mantles.
Nobody else was pulling stunts like them that I recall.
Dresden does it multiple times without comment from anyone else in the setting.

The first time he seeks audience with the Fae Courts in Summer Knight, he does so in street clothes.
Both when he goes to Maeve's Court and gets a formal audience, and when we see Aurora's entourage.
When we see Winter Knight Lloyd Slate in Maeve's Court during that visit, he's in street clothes.

When Dresden summons his godmother for an audience? Street clothes.
When he seeks audience with Mab in the Law as her Knight, street clothes.

Both times he officially seeks Odin's audience, both when he went to see him in his Norway HQ during Changes, and when Odin comes to Chicago in Skin Game? Streetclothes.
When he stumbles into the Erlking's Court? You guessed it, street clothes.

I can count once he's ever worn a tux to see the Fae, and that was when someone else arranged his wardrobe.

The sum of the evidence suggests that no, its not considered an issue.
If you have a formal invitation to a formal event or meeting, then not dressing up might be a faux pas, maybe even an insult, especially if there's a prescribed dress code.

But it doesnt appear to be an issue most other times.


This is entirely playing a game, and to be honest I'm more annoyed you're denying it than by tbe difference in approach.

The explicit intent is to manipulate through apperance because the Summer fey are even more obsessed with it than than the most picky mortal. You're just trying to sell your preference as the default natural one that doesn't present issue. Which is sort of funny Molly would be context sensitive in the mortal world and show up with a more formal image to small claims court than a negotiation with Titania.
I dont agree. You dont play games when talking potentially critical shit like this.
Manipulating through appearance requires that you know how the other side will react to said appearances, which gets chancy when you're throwing in touchstones and signifiers from an alien culture.

I would not really have an issue if we were invited to a formal social meeting and people wanted to play dressup.
Those are high profile, but not all that high stakes, and game playing is explicitly on the menu.
But this? Clarity would be a priority in my book.

There's a time and place for games. This aint it. IMO.



Secure contact info maybe, but I'd be shocked if Ivy has permission to sneak into the heart of Summer. That's way too significant a weak point to prevent to a foreign power, even a friendly one.

There's also the potential issue of someone noticing and taking a shot because they detected an invisible person but not exactly who they were. The Archive is impossibly good, but there's a difference between hiding from a seeking party in neutral space and walking into the heart of someone's power undetected.

The high fey have some very effective members, and in that place they're backed by everything from wards to the local nature of the nevernever being biased in their favor.
I wouldnt.

The Archive, and whoever set her up, predate the current Queens, and if IIRC, predates the establishment of the Queens as the ruling/controlling element of the Fae Courts, and the Courts in their current form, at least in canon. Five thousand years. Given the complementary roles of both, you're looking at potentially some serious legacy code involved here.

And that fight with the Denarians in Small Favor gives us scaling for the Archive that gets very impressive.

Especially the point where she veils so hard that the coven of demon-possessed immortals who had literal Fallen Angels looking out of their eyes couldnt see her in an area where they had borrowed power from Lucifer to set up what the Fate universe would call a bounded field.

Hiding from the Queens? Unlikely at best.
Anyone else? I'd find it plausible that she might be able to pull it off.


We are really consistently not taking chances to change things.

This is minor, recognition from Summer will come anyway, but it's still a point where we waste opportunity.

The biggest one was not using the White Court evidence of course, but it's still a frequent issue besides that.
We are making far too few waves, beyond what we can't avoid by being what we are.

I'll be honest, if this were my game rather than a group effort, I probably would have started by jumping into the big-kids pool and then just tried to survive for the next few arcs.
Something like making an enemy out of Mab by freeing the Winter Knight, or going aggressively after the Thule from the moment we had the list, or rooting out the rot in the White Council with fire and sword. Whatever.
Just making a big splash on principle and then enjoying the desperate fight for our life that follows.

[X] Yog
We arent roleplaying a blank slate though.

Our PC is an existing character with a backstory and characterization and existing investment in the setting not blowing up and collateraling her friends and family. Someone with enough prior supernatural knowledge as to have some idea from the beginning why not playing a bull in a china shop.

Roleplaying that person and their priorities is why we're Molly Carpenter and not some random OC Exalting into the Dresden Files Universe.



As for making too few waves?
In the last six or seven months, just counting significant kills, we have killed the
  • Eldest Fetch,
  • The renegade Valkyrie Kattrin Sigfridsdottir
  • A greater akuma of Kakuri
  • Two senior White Court vampires, including the White King's nephew and a Ducal House head
  • A lesser Walker of the Outsiders
  • The daughter of the Red King and her entire entourage of low-generation Rampires.
Molly has averaged a major kill every month, month and half since she Exalted.

In addition that? We have exorcised the Winter Lady of a Nemesis infestation.
Helped mediate a peaceful Mantle change in Winter of one of Mab's senior operatives . Foiled a White Court coup attempt and helped purge the plotters, preventing White Court entry into the Vampire War and the deaths of Cauldron members.

We delivered a Thule Society middle manager to the White Council.
Set up the Final Death of the Corpsetaker at Arawn's hands and the death of an Archmage Marauder in Boston at the hands of Odin's people. Exorcised Lasciel's foothold in Dresden around six or eight months early.

Molly literally just incarnated an entirely new class of supernatural in Lash less than two weeks ago IC.

And thats just the big stuff.
I have no idea where the argument of making too few waves is coming from.
Hurricane Molly has been in full effect since she Exalted.
 
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[X] As the Queen of Sanctuary in royal garb, the sign upon your brow bright burning
-[X] Assist Archive, but let her make design decisions. You are interested where this is going
-[X] Roll occult excellency to see how fashion, math, poetry and spiders are similar.
 
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