Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[TheGrape]

So the Red Court Vampire we commandeered in the lake fight was probably the one who passed the word to Arianna. I'm kinda surprised that vampire realized what Molly was beyond "demon lord on vacation", but maybe Arianna was exaggerating?

It's still kinda odd, if the skinwalker was willing to commit to fighting Molly for freedom from its curses, I would understand why it's here, but the fact that it's not willing to go all out yet still willing to provoke Molly is still strange. We still haven't learned what Arianna is paying the skinwalker yet, or even if he was telling the truth that he didn't want no trouble with Molly, so we can't rule anything out.

Still, now we have incentive to actively help the White Council against the Red Court specifically. The war has been brought to our doorstep, and its time to teach the Red Court what the White Court has already learned: the best way to interact with an Infernal Exalted is to never interact with an Infernal Exalted.

 

[DragonParadox]

So the Red Court Vampire we commandeered in the lake fight was probably the one who passed the word to Arianna. I'm kinda surprised that vampire realized what Molly was beyond "demon lord on vacation", but maybe Arianna was exaggerating?

It's still kinda odd, if the skinwalker was willing to commit to fighting Molly for freedom from its curses, I would understand why it's here, but the fact that it's not willing to go all out yet still willing to provoke Molly is still strange. We still haven't learned what Arianna is paying the skinwalker yet, or even if he was telling the truth that he didn't want no trouble with Molly, so we can't rule anything out.

Still, now we have incentive to actively help the White Council against the Red Court specifically. The war has been brought to our doorstep, and its time to teach the Red Court what the White Court has already learned: the best way to interact with an Infernal Exalted is to never interact with an Infernal Exalted.

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Keep in mind he never said 'I would not fight that', he sad 'you do not pay me in fights I have to do on my own, you pay me in sacrifices'. Also you guys still do not know the terms of the deal since you asked 'who' not 'what'.

 

[Goldfish]

It's still kinda odd, if the skinwalker was willing to commit to fighting Molly for freedom from its curses, I would understand why it's here, but the fact that it's not willing to go all out yet still willing to provoke Molly is still strange.

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It's a paranoid coward at heart. If it believes what Ortega told it, that we might be superior to even the gods who cursed it, consuming us might be enough to free it from those curses. Killing us is not an easy prospect if we're potentially more potent than one of its creator gods.

So it plans and prepares, to minimize the risk to itself while maximizing the chance for success. We haven't seen whatever those preparations might be.

 

[mastigos]

"Now, now sister," he laughs, but you can hear the fear beneath it, the conversation is getting away from him fast. "it is one thing to fulfil one's contract to the letter, not the spirit, quite another to betray one's contractor ."

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The part I find interesting about this is WHY is he scared? Or rather ... who is he scared of? There's only really two options given the context

• He didn't know Dresden was Ebenezer's apprentice, and thus didn't know that killing Dresden would earn him the Blackstaff's personal enmity
• Leading trouble back to Bianca would in some way be dangerous to him. Either due to retaliation by the Red King (unlikely) ... or due to magically binding oaths of some sort

 

[BronzeTongue]

"Now, now sister," he laughs, but you can hear the fear beneath it, the conversation is getting away from him fast. "it is one thing to fulfil one's contract to the letter, not the spirit, quite another to betray one's contractor ."

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This is good, we want him on the back foot. We haven't agreed to shit yet, so everything said here is smoke and mirrors for the purpose of making him do things.

We don't even have to reveal divinatory hijinks for this, we know the Naagoloshii aren't the sort to stand on principle, and exact terms are what matters here.

A little more pressure and we can tip the balance I think.

[X] Eyes Bigger than your Mouth
-[X] [Stunt] A flicker of amusement enters into Molly's tone "Did you sign a pledge of loyalty? Agree to keep their secrets in all ways? Surely one as old and clever as you can share without speaking a word if nothing else"
—[X] Something cold sweeps in, snuffing the lightness in her voice like a candle. " You're very well prepared for today, but what about tomorrow? You can hurt my mortals, and that's certainly leverage, but it has a shelf life and I know you"
—[X] " Even if you dodge the wizards' till their blood is dust I will remember the insult if nothing else". How many centuries of spiteful circling is this really worth to you?

 

[uju32]

Hmm.
Dresden will remember Arianna was bidding on Dresden's life on Ebay during Proven Guilty when Madrigal was auctioning him. Arianna Ortega is looking to die several years early.

Im going to note that the power to undo a curse by what were allegedly angels is significantly beyond anything the Red Court should be capable of. So either Seeker is just the latest in a long line of people who fell for a Red Court proposal that was too good to be true, or some backer gave Arianna the mojo to fuck with a divine curse.

And this is the second Red Court plot that we're stumbling across in the last month, after the White Court thing.

Possibly the fourth in the last six months, given that we know that canonically there were links between Corpsetaker, the other Kemmlerites in Dead Beat, and the Red Court offensive in Dead Beat.
Which would appear to link Kattrin Sigfridsdottir, Johann of Cleves, and the Red Court.

Im now curious about precisely when Seeker was hired by Ortega to go after Dresden.
Back in June/July? Or was it after the Raith party?
I need to think on this at some length.


@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Out of curiosity, can Molly tell what time of the year it was that this meeting between Ortega and Seeker took place?
Mid-summer? Late autumn?
Nevada does have all four seasons according to Google, so a meeting outdoors like Molly saw in her vision might give some idea of the time of year.

 

[DragonParadox]

@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Out of curiosity, can Molly tell what time of the year it was that this meeting between Ortega and Seeker took place?
Mid-summer? Late autumn?
Nevada does have all four seasons according to Google, so a meeting outdoors like Molly saw in her vision might give some idea of the time of year.

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Sadly no, it is high noon in a desert so there isn't much to go on and the skill she would have to use is survival which she does not have at all.

 

[Yog]

The vampire laughs, as though the threat, or the notion that the tainted spirit had loves was the funniest thing it had heart all year, to be fair it might have been. "I offer you a chance to escape the bonds of your masters' parting curse Messenger, to devour a thing beyond them and upon thy throne unmoving to ascend..."

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So, am I reading this right, and Red Court really did offer Harry as a target to be devoured using his Starborn ability as the lure?

 

[BronzeTongue]

The part I find interesting about this is WHY is he scared? Or rather ... who is he scared of? There's only really two options given the context

• He didn't know Dresden was Ebenezer's apprentice, and thus didn't know that killing Dresden would earn him the Blackstaff's personal enmity
• Leading trouble back to Bianca would in some way be dangerous to him. Either due to retaliation by the Red King (unlikely) ... or due to magically binding oaths of some sort

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Remember that plucking its name out of the air like we did is really damn hard for anyone else. He has to reevaluate how much we know and what we learned in the process of acquiring it.

Especially given the particular name we used; it wasn't his true name for magic purposes, but it was his real one. Something tangible that a good wizard can turn into dangerous knowledge.

He had to know Ebenezer was Harry's mentor, but it's likely Broken Seeker thought he could get away clean and keep his head down while the vamps and council distract each other.

We just butchered that, he has no way to know how far his involvement has spread or what contingencies we've laid.

Ebenezer is nearly as spiteful as he is old, war or no war a word of this to him is going to get someone a surprise strategic launch from his lab space eventually. His ability to bust that sort of thing out like he's pulling quarters from behind his grandkids' ears is why the reds keep trying to kill him so hard.

That's assuming he doesn't just outsource it.

We've seen the power of the favor economy, it moves everyone eventually. Even with the limits Ebenezer would put on it from the start, what sort of trouble do you think "IOU one strategic launch equivalent marker" could buy for BS right now?

I doubt it's a magically binding oath; the whole thing with the value of your word is in part so that you don't need to deal with that constantly, especially with people you distrust.

Im going to note that the power to undo a curse by what were allegedly angels is significantly beyond anything the Red Court should be capable of. So either Seeker is just the latest in a long line of people who fell for a Red Court proposal that was too good to be true, or some backer gave Arianna the mojo to fuck with a divine curse.

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That's not what's happening here.

Arianna tried to pay him to kill Harry with rumors of Molly and he told her to stuff it.

You offer empty flattery!" the voice from the mound booms as something part serpentine, part leonine and part cephalopod starts to writhe out of the stones before it wraps around itself in a vaguely humanoid form. "Blood and Bone, soul and mind, these things I take as tribute, not in the form of your enemies loose in the world, but bound before me. Do you have this thing beyond my once-masters?"

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We have then for we are at war with the wizards of the white and not all whom we take are fit to join the dance macabre. There is another wizard we wish you to harry and to hunt... "

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It's not explicit, but it seems strongly implied she had a pile of sacrifices caught during the war that weren't suitable for becoming vamps to feed Broken Seeker.


Her reply doesn't make sense as referring to his query on her big payoff, because it implies multiple subjects looted from the white council. Why would BS ever buy that sort of line?

And this is the second Red Court plot that we're stumbling across in the last month, after the White Court thing.

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Yeah. At this point we should take up Ebenezer on his mercenary work purely on the basis that we're apparently doing it anyway and might as well be getting paid for it.

And I personally still want to see if we can power level by taking demigod vamps like Jell-O shots before the stock runs out.

 

[DragonParadox]

So, am I reading this right, and Red Court really did offer Harry as a target to be devoured using his Starborn ability as the lure?

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The first thing they seem to have offered it is 'eat this very scary being and you will be freed of your curse' to which the answer was 'How nice you are paying me in experience. I am not an intern'

 

[Yog]

Im going to note that the power to undo a curse by what were allegedly angels is significantly beyond anything the Red Court should be capable of. So either Seeker is just the latest in a long line of people who fell for a Red Court proposal that was too good to be true, or some backer gave Arianna the mojo to fuck with a divine curse.

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As far as I know there's nothing indicating Holy People being anything other than a pagan deities akin to Odin and aesir. Please give me quotes or other reasoning for why you would think them to be White God angels. Red Court, having either subjugated, looted corpses or otherwise having taken over another pantheon, likely has extensive knowledge on how to deal with divine curses, including breaking them. So, I think the offer might be somewhat legit, if containing a trap of some kind, because they wouldn't want anyone but themselves to grow stronger.

The first thing they seem to have offered it is 'eat this very scary being and you will be freed of your curse' to which the answer was 'How nice you are paying me in experience. I am not an intern'

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Ah, so they meant us? Ambitious of them to think it could stomach the taste of our exaltation. And shows that either they don't understand what it is, or are lying to Broken Seeker.

 

[uju32]

Okay. Gonna have to think on this.
But right now Im leaning towards pressing him some more.
No point leaving figurative money on the table.

Probably also worth implying that the Red Court deliberately set him up.
After all, we DID meet a Red Court covert action team in Cleveland and they saw Molly in action, so they would know precisely what they were sending him up against.

And if he killed Dresden, and Molly killed him, they wouldnt have to pay him, would they?
Im reasonably sure that there's no way they've payed him in full yet; at most, a deposit.

That's not what's happening here.
Arianna tried to pay him to kill Harry with rumors of Molly and he told her to stuff it.

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I dont think thats what the update is saying.
She offered to pay him to kill Dresden with Dresden's magic power/heritage, not Molly.

It's not explicit, but it seems strongly implied she had a pile of sacrifices caught during the war that weren't suitable for becoming vamps to feed Broken Seeker.

Her reply doesn't make sense as referring to his query on her big payoff, because it implies multiple subjects looted from the white council. Why would BS ever buy that sort of line?

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Canonically, the Red Court has never taken a wizard of the White Council alive.
Its one of the fears of the Wardens, and a tacit understanding that they refuse to be taken alive, which given that every wizard has a death curse loaded is a pretty thorough deterrent. The mere suggestion that they had managed to do so when attacking a WC base got the Senior Council to take the field in Dead Beat.

So unless the QM has changed that for this AU, she cant be talking about wizards.
Maybe a bunch of lesser talents, but not wizards.

 

[uju32]

As far as I know there's nothing indicating Holy People being anything other than a pagan deities akin to Odin and aesir. Please give me quotes or other reasoning for why you would think them to be White God angels. Red Court, having either subjugated, looted corpses or otherwise having taken over another pantheon, likely has extensive knowledge on how to deal with divine curses, including breaking them. So, I think the offer might be somewhat legit, if containing a trap of some kind, because they wouldn't want anyone but themselves to grow stronger.

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Bob was VERY clear about their origins:

sighed and rubbed at my temples, closing my eyes. "You said the skinwalkers were semidivine?"
"You're using the English word, which doesn't really describe them very precisely. Most skinwalkers are just people-powerful, dangerous, and often psychotic people, but people. They're successors to the traditions and skills taught to avaricious mortals by the originals. The naagloshii."
"Originals like Shagnasty," I said.
"He's the real deal, all right," Bob replied, his quiet voice growing more serious. "According to some of the stories of the Navajo, the naagloshii were originally messengers for the Holy People, when they were first teaching humans the Blessing Way."
"Messengers?" I said. "Like angels?"
"Or like those guys on bikes in New York, maybe?" Bob said. "Not all couriers are created identical, Mr. Lowest-Common-Denominator. Anyway, the original messengers, the naagloshii, were supposed to go with the Holy People when they departed the mortal world. But some of them didn't. They stayed here, and their selfishness corrupted the power the Holy People gave them. Voila, Shagnasty."
I grunted. Bob's information was anecdotal, which meant it could well be distorted by time and by generations of retelling. There probably wasn't any way to know the objective truth of it-but a surprising amount of that kind of lore remained fundamentally sound in oral tradition societies like those of the American Southwest. "When did this happen?"
"Tough to say," Bob said. "The traditional Navajo don't see time the way most mortals do, which makes them arguably smarter than the rest of you monkeys. But it's safe to assume prehistory. Several millennia."
Yikes.
Thousands of years of survival meant thousands of years of accumulated experience. It meant that Shagnasty was smart and adaptable. The old skinwalker wouldn't still be around if it wasn't. I upgraded the creature, in my thoughts, from "very tough" to "damned near impossibly tough."


Turn Coat Chapter 29, Page 268-269

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If we were talking about the regular pagan pantheons, he'd have said so.
He's usually pretty clear about that shit.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I dont think thats what the update is saying.
She offered to pay him to kill Dresden with Dresden's magic power/heritage, not Molly.

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The point of the first quote is that BS doesn't take payment in experience, as DP confirmed in a later post. She can't be paying him with Harry, because he gets that by default.

She brought him something to satisfy his physical tribute demands, and implied they were from the council.

Could be apprentices or something for all we know.

Bob was VERY clear about their origins:

If we were talking about the regular pagan pantheons, he'd have said so.
He's usually pretty clear about that shit.

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What? He's specifically telling Harry messengers not all created equal or identical, and semi divine doesn't mean they're exactly what he expects them to be.

It also says nothing about what the Holy People actually were/are.

 

[Yog]

[X] Make it clear you know who that is already, on the one hand there is a good chance it will spook him into caving, for now at least, your friends safe and sound. On the other hand you will have revealed extreme divinatory powers to someone who is definitely not your friend.
-[X] Convince him he's being set up. Probably in hopes he and you take each other out. It seems sparing their advance team wasn't as appreciated as you hoped.

I don't like revealing our divinatory abilities, but as long as we stab it in the back the moment our friends are free and kill it, it should be ok. If anyone has any other ideas, I am willing to listen. Maybe ask what it actually wants out of life? Other than petty sadism against mortals.

Bob was VERY clear about their origins:
If we were talking about the regular pagan pantheons, he'd have said so.
He's usually pretty clear about that shit.

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I'm sorry, but you are failing reading comprehension pretty terribly here. It's Harry who brings up angels here, as an analogy, because he's primarily christian culturally, so he wouldn't use valkyries or some other manner of divine servitors from other religions. Bob then responds with "Or like those guys on bikes in New York, maybe?" and says that "not all messengers are created equal", which to me reads like he agrees that naagloshii are like angels, in that they are divine messengers, but they are not equal to angels in any way, with a comparison to bikers in New York being just as valid.

Nowhere does it say that naagloshii are affiliated with or are angels. Or that Holy People are angels. In fact, Holy People aren't discussed at all in this text.

 

[Alratan]

Canonically, the Red Court has never taken a wizard of the White Council alive.
Its one of the fears of the Wardens, and a tacit understanding that they refuse to be taken alive, which given that every wizard has a death curse loaded is a pretty thorough deterrent. The mere suggestion that they had managed to do so when attacking a WC base got the Senior Council to take the field in Dead Beat

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I don't believe that's the case. The White Council knows what happens when a wizard is captured and turned by the Red Court, which means it's happened before.

 

[Yog]

Also, @DragonParadox a question, if naagloshii is under remnant magical bindings / contracts from the time he served Holy People, and still shares some manner of connection to native american people, would A Cold and Lonely World free it?

With but a touch and an injection of enervating
Essence, the Infernal severs an individual from her
place in the world.
System: The Infernal touches her target, spends 2
Essence, and roll Manipulation + Subterfuge against
a difficulty of the target's Willpower. Success curses
them for one day per success. The target is are alienat-
ed from his own identity, from his relationships, and
from the shape of his life within the world. It's diffi-
cult for him to gain the attention of strangers without
doing something to anger them – and everyone is now
a stranger. Friends, allies, and loved ones do not recog-
nize him, and no mundane effort will convince them
of his true identity; even if he displays a driver's license
or other such identification, they are likely to think
that this stranger somehow stole their friend's ID. He
is not only nobody: he is an outsider to all and sundry.
If he wishes to use any sort of supernatural power to
impose his will on another (such as the vampire Disci-
pline of Dominate), he must first spend a Willpower
point to do so. He likely loses access to several Back-
grounds while the curse persists.

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It says nothing about magicalyl binding connections / debts / contracts, but it seems relatively reasonable that there would be at least some effect. The important part is "from the shape of his life within the world".

 

[Goldfish]

I dont think thats what the update is saying.
She offered to pay him to kill Dresden with Dresden's magic power/heritage, not Molly.

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No, I'm pretty sure knowledge of Molly's existence was intended as payment for Harry's death. Or a down payment, at least.

 

[BronzeTongue]

The first thing they seem to have offered it is 'eat this very scary being and you will be freed of your curse' to which the answer was 'How nice you are paying me in experience. I am not an intern'

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No, I'm pretty sure knowledge of Molly's existence was intended as payment for Harry's death. Or a down payment, at least.

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DP's clarified this twice; she tried that and got told to make an offer with meat in it.

Since she got told off for trying to pay it with the hunt she was sending it on once I don't see why she'd try it twice in the same conversation. Especially when she implied she had "cash" on hand in the ending section of the vision.

It says nothing about magicalyl binding connections / debts / contracts, but it seems relatively reasonable that there would be at least some effect. The important part is "from the shape of his life within the world".

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Probably more of a false springs beckon thing:

False springs BeCKon (•••)
The Infernal offers reprieve from the torments of exis-
tence. This is a trap, but one her foes may willingly step into. System: The Infernal needs merely extend a hand for her target to understand that she offers relief from some ongoing source of misery. The Infernal may de- liberately choose the sort of relief she offers, or may simply offer relief from whatever most torments the target. Examples of valid torments include the pain (and associated wound penalties) of injuries or chronic health conditions; a vampire's Clan weakness; a supernatural being's susceptibility to frenzy; a derangement of the mind; the drawbacks of a demon's Torment; an ongoing curse laid by a magician; or anything else the Storyteller feels is in line with the above examples.
If the target accepts the Infernal's offer, she may sanctify the pact by spending 1 Essence. The target im- mediately ceases to suffer from the relevant torment. This reprieve lasts until for a number of weeks equal to the Infernal's Essence rating, or until the target refuses to do anything the Infernal tells him to do, whichever comes first. In no case does this Charm actually fix the problem – the target is still wounded, cursed, or de- ranged – it merely alleviates the symptoms for a while

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The Naagloshii's problems seem more about the consequences of "falling" on their nature than invoking general contract terms.

I'm not sure why we'd want to free one of these guys, but if we were this is the charm for doing that stuff.

 

[Artemis1992]

Im going to note that the power to undo a curse by what were allegedly angels is significantly beyond anything the Red Court should be capable of. So either Seeker is just the latest in a long line of people who fell for a Red Court proposal that was too good to be true, or some backer gave Arianna the mojo to fuck with a divine curse.

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I would bet that this is about eating Molly.

The power to choose to the right or wrong thing, without suffering specific weaknesses for it like the Naagloshii does, is very essential to the Exaltation. The question is not if you can do, but if you accept the consequences and so on.

If Arianna thinks (or doesn't, but wants to convince Broken Seeker of it) that eating us would free the Naagloshii from his weakness to the Blessing Way and the people he was supposed to teach and protect, then that's an interesting offer at least.

Of course he rejected it, since she couldn't bring us to him as a sacrifice, but we have to keep this in mind for dealing with the Naagloshii here.
If he has a real interest to kill us, not just out of general enjoyment of murder but for a strong motive, then we should look at his plans in that light.

How does his current actions help him get us in a position where he can so his task (kill Harry) and get the bonus of killing Molly with minimized risk to himself?

Edit: To be clear, I don't think that would work. The Skinwalker can no more eat an Exaltation than he could eat the White God, but that doesn't matter, the relevant point is that he might think he can.

 

[Yog]

The Naagloshii's problems seem more about the consequences of "falling" on their nature than invoking general contract terms.

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I read it the other way. Naagloshii are pretty fine with having fallen, however they still have lingering obligations / contracts / geases giving native americans and likely holy people power over them. Depending on the nature of those, Cold and Lonely World might free them, at least temporarily.

Anyway, this is all hypothetical. The salient question is: are we killing Broken Seeker here and now, and all his minions too (or at least subverting them and getting them into rehabilitation / service)? If yes, it doesn't matter what we tell it.

Also, a modification of the vote

[X] Plan enemy of my enemy's enemy
-[X] Make it clear you know who that is already, on the one hand there is a good chance it will spook him into caving, for now at least, your friends safe and sound. On the other hand you will have revealed extreme divinatory powers to someone who is definitely not your friend.
--[X] Convince him he's being set up. Probably in hopes he and you take each other out. Use the meeting you had with a team of reads as an explanation to how you even knew he was in town in the first place. Make it look like they warned you about him, seemingly as repayment for aiding them and not attacking them. You should have known better than to ever assume Reds wouldn't have an ulterior motive.
--[X] Subterfuge excellency if needed
--[X] Stunt: You pause for several moments, as if deep in thought, and then speak again, aspecting your voice to look like you are just getting the idea, which, in a sense, you are: "But not when your contractor is setting you up to die a final death, isn't it? And if I'm right, that's exactly what is going on. You are here on the orders from the Reds, aren't you? I met a team of them, led by a count, several months ago when out of town getting some fish food, if you know what I mean. Worked with them for a bit, and let them go. They warned me, "to repay my generosity" about you being in town. Took me a while to verify it. It makes sense now that they knew you were here, if they are the ones to send you here in the first place."

 

[zxzx24]

I mean can we free him from his earthly Curses if he swears loyalty to us?

He would have to stop eating people and torturing them for fun.

And he's annoyed us personally but. Eh shiny.

 

[DragonParadox]

I mean can we free him from his earthly Curses if he swears loyalty to us?

He would have to stop eating people and torturing them for fun.

And he's annoyed us personally but. Eh shiny.

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What, just Mercy in Servitude him? This is too big for that, Broken Seeker is an Incarna spirit. Now False Spring Beckon that would work, in no small part because it is false hope, it does not end the curse, it just supresses it under a veil of infernal Essence.

 

[zxzx24]

False Spring Beckon that would work

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I was absolutely certain there was no way in hell we could actually. Genuinely promise him what the red court did. Except for real.

That is wild.

 

[DragonParadox]

I was absolutely certain there was no way in hell we could actually. Genuinely promise him what the red court did. Except for real.

That is wild.

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The thing works on Vampire Clan weaknesses in WoD, you can pluck away the Madness of the Malkavians, wave away the monstrous form of a Nosferatu, that is the point of what Infernals are, the devil at the door, the corruptor with a bag full of gifts on a timer.