Good night guys, see you tomorrow with either Harry or some base building. I really should make a system for that....
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Location
- washington
In fairness this isn't harry we are talking to right?
As far as I understand, there's no real way to prepare. Not unless she can grant Harry access to Ancient Sorcery, or turn herself into an unwoven coadjutor and lead Harry to an infernal exaltation.
I'm sorry? I don't understand what you mean.
[X] Yog
- Location
- washington
But, what about the exp harry will get for seducing the seducer? 
- Location
- washington
We aren't talking to him right now right?
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
It seems really dangerous to share this information with Harry right now when A) we aren't properly prepared to contain the spirit of Lash when she is exorcised and B) we don't know how Lash will react when she learns of this capability, specifically what she will do to Harry in retaliation or how she might try to prevent the exorcism.
While she cannot outright puppet Harry's body, IIRC, she does have quite a lot of root level access to his brain.
While she cannot outright puppet Harry's body, IIRC, she does have quite a lot of root level access to his brain.
- Location
- washington
Harry stockholded lash I'm sad that's basically impossible here.
I'm hoping for something that at least looks like a nickel, just for the Doofenshmirtz reference when we eventually do it to the real Lasciel. ("If I had a nickel for every time I exorcized Lasciel from a host, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.")
[X] Keep this to yourself until you have some place to put a piece of fallen angel
[X] Keep this to yourself until you have some place to put a piece of fallen angel
VOTE
[X] Keep this to yourself until you have some place to put a piece of fallen angel
RATIONALE
Whatever we tell Harry, Lash will know as well, and Lash is currently linked to the Fallen Angel Lasciel.
As @Goldfish has pointed out, Lash has root level access to parts of Dresden's brain.
And the ability to use it. This was the canon confrontation between her and Dresden when she tried to stop him from going after whatever had kidnapped Molly just before the beginning of this quest:
Even assuming Exalted bullshit allows us to talk Lash around to not resisting an exorcism because we offer her an alternative?
We still dont know how much information Lasciel can remotely pull out of her Shadow, with or without its consent.
Or how she might react to figuring that Molly can rip her Shadow out of Dresden.
We shouldnt reveal our ability to pull her out of Dresden's head unless we're ready to act on it at short notice, else we give Lasciel preptime to react.
Furthermore? Its also worth remembering that the Shadow of a Fallen Angel is an immensely knowledgeable spirit, in a setting where knowledge is power. Consider how Cowl regarded Bob, and then figure that Lash, even with some of the deliberate gaps in her knowledge/skillset is a much more valuable asset.
I mean, just off the top of my head, she is one of a very few people who remember the full text of the Word of Kemmler, which would allow a necromancer to set up a Darkhallow or to attack the Black Court.
If we yank her out, a LOT of people will want to get their hands on such a valuable asset for their own reasons, from her progenitor to multiple supernatural powers.
We should implement some preparations for that as well.
Thats my two cents.
Commentary and replies later.
[X] Keep this to yourself until you have some place to put a piece of fallen angel
RATIONALE
Whatever we tell Harry, Lash will know as well, and Lash is currently linked to the Fallen Angel Lasciel.
As @Goldfish has pointed out, Lash has root level access to parts of Dresden's brain.
And the ability to use it. This was the canon confrontation between her and Dresden when she tried to stop him from going after whatever had kidnapped Molly just before the beginning of this quest:
Lasciel appeared between me and the table, in her usual white tunic, her red hair pulled back into a tight braid. She held up both hands and said, quietly, "I cannot permit you to do this."
"You," I said in a quiet, distant voice, "are almost as annoying as a sudden phone call."
"This is pointless," she said. "My host, I beg you to reconsider."
"I don't have time for you," I said. "I have a job to do."
"A job?" she asked. "Evading your responsibilities, you mean?"
I tilted my head slightly. In my current mental state, the emotions I felt seemed infinitely far away and all but inconsequential. "How so?"
"Look at yourself," she replied, her voice that low, quiet, reasonable tone one uses around madmen and ugly drunks. "Listen to yourself. You're tired. You're injured. You're wracked by guilt. You're frightened. You will destroy yourself."
"And you with me?" I asked her.
"Correct," she said. "I do not fear the end of my existence, my host but I would not be extinguished by one too self-deluded to understand what he was about."
"I'm not deluded," I said.
"But you are. You know that this effort shall probably kill you. And once it has done so, you will be free from any onus of what happened to the girl. After all, you heroically died in the effort to find her and retrieve her. You won't have to attend her funeral. You won't have to explain yourself to Michael. You won't have to tell her parents that their daughter is dead because of your incompetence."
I did not reply. The emotions grew a little closer.
"This isn't anything more than an elaborate form of suicide, chosen during a moment of weakness," Lasciel said. "I do not wish to see you destroy yourself, my host."
I stared at her.
I thought about it.
She might be right.
It didn't matter.
"Move," I murmured. "Before I move you." Then I paused and said, "Wait a minute. What am I thinking? It isn't as though you can stop me." Then I simply stepped through Lasciel's image to the table, and reached for the white envelope.
The white envelope began to spin in place on the table, and abruptly became dozens of envelopes, each identical, each whirling like a pinwheel.
"But I can," Lasciel said quietly. I looked up to find her standing on the opposite side of the table from me. "I witnessed the birth of time itself. I watched the mortal coil spring forth from perfect darkness. I watched the stars form, watched this world coalesce, watched as life was breathed into it and as your kind rose to rule it." She put both hands on the table and leaned toward me, her blue eyes cold and hard. "Thus far, I have behaved as a guest ought. But do not mistake propriety for weakness, mortal. I beg you not to oblige me to take further action."
I narrowed my eyes and reached for my Sight.
Before I could use it, my left hand exploded into flame.
Pain, pain, PAIN. Fire, scorching, parboiling my hand as I tried to hold it back with my shield bracelet. The memory of my injury in that vampire-haunted basement came rushing back to me in THX, and my nerve endings were listening.
I fought down a scream, breathing, my teeth snapping together so suddenly and sharply that a fleck of one of my molars chipped away.
It was an illusion, I told myself. A memory. It's a ghost, nothing more. It cannot harm you if you do not allow it to do so. I pushed hard against that memory, turning the focus of my will against it.
I felt the illusion-memory wobble, and then the pain was gone, the fire out. My body pumped endorphins into my bloodstream a heartbeat later, and I drifted on them as my focus started to collapse. I leaned hard against the table, my left hand held close to my chest in pure reflex, my right supporting my weight. I turned my attention to the envelopes and forced my will against them until the illusions grew translucent. I picked up the real envelope.
Lasciel regarded me steadily, her beautiful face unyielding, determined.
"Sooner or later I'll push through anything you throw," I panted. "You know that."
"Yes," she said. "But you will not be able to focus on the divination until you are quit of me. I may force you to exhaust yourself resisting me, in which case you will not attempt the divination. Even if I only delay you until dawn, there will be no need for you to attempt it." She lifted her chin. "Whatever happens, the divination will not be successful."
I let out a low chuckle, which made Lasciel frown at me. "You missed it," I said.
"Missed what?"
"The loophole. I can kill myself trying it while you rock the boat. And after all, this entire exercise is nothing more than a suicide attempt in any case. Why not go through with it?"
Her jaw clenched. "You would murder yourself rather than yield to reason?"
"More manslaughter than murder, I'd say."
"You're mad," the fallen angel said.
"Get me some Alka-Seltzer and I'll foam at the mouth, too." This time I hit Lasciel with the hard look. "There's a child out there who needs me. I'd rather die than let her down. I'm doing the spell, period. So fuck off."
She shook her head in frustration and looked away, frowning. "You are quite likely to die."
"Broken record much?" I asked. I got out the lock of baby-fine hair, set my knife down on the table, and lit the ceremonial candles there. The fallen angel was correct, dammit. The fear stirred dangerously inside me and my fingers shook hard enough to break the first kitchen match instead of kindling it to life.
"If you must do this," Lasciel said, "at least attempt to survive it. Let me help you."
"You can help me by shutting the hell up and going away," I told her. "Hellfire isn't going to be any use to me here."
"Perhaps not," Lasciel said. "But there is another way."
There was a shimmer of light in the corner of my eye, and I turned to see a slowly pulsing silver glow upon the floor in the middle of my summoning circle. Two feet beneath it lay the Blackened Denarius where the rest of Lasciel was imprisoned.
"Take up the coin," she urged me. "I can at least protect you from a backlash. I beg you not to throw your life away."
I bit my lip.
I didn't want to die, dammit. And the thought of failing to save Molly was almost worse than death. The holder of one of the thirty ancient silver coins had access to tremendous power. With that kind of boost, I could probably pull the spell off, and even if it went south I could survive it under Lasciel's protection. Somehow, I knew that if I chose to do it I could get the coin out from under the concrete in only a moment, too.
I stared at the silver glow for a moment.
Then I rolled my eyes and said, "Are you still here?"
Lasciel's face smoothed into an emotionless mask, but there was a subtle, ugly tone of threat in her voice. "You are much easier to talk to when you are asleep, my host."
And she was gone.
"You," I said in a quiet, distant voice, "are almost as annoying as a sudden phone call."
"This is pointless," she said. "My host, I beg you to reconsider."
"I don't have time for you," I said. "I have a job to do."
"A job?" she asked. "Evading your responsibilities, you mean?"
I tilted my head slightly. In my current mental state, the emotions I felt seemed infinitely far away and all but inconsequential. "How so?"
"Look at yourself," she replied, her voice that low, quiet, reasonable tone one uses around madmen and ugly drunks. "Listen to yourself. You're tired. You're injured. You're wracked by guilt. You're frightened. You will destroy yourself."
"And you with me?" I asked her.
"Correct," she said. "I do not fear the end of my existence, my host but I would not be extinguished by one too self-deluded to understand what he was about."
"I'm not deluded," I said.
"But you are. You know that this effort shall probably kill you. And once it has done so, you will be free from any onus of what happened to the girl. After all, you heroically died in the effort to find her and retrieve her. You won't have to attend her funeral. You won't have to explain yourself to Michael. You won't have to tell her parents that their daughter is dead because of your incompetence."
I did not reply. The emotions grew a little closer.
"This isn't anything more than an elaborate form of suicide, chosen during a moment of weakness," Lasciel said. "I do not wish to see you destroy yourself, my host."
I stared at her.
I thought about it.
She might be right.
It didn't matter.
"Move," I murmured. "Before I move you." Then I paused and said, "Wait a minute. What am I thinking? It isn't as though you can stop me." Then I simply stepped through Lasciel's image to the table, and reached for the white envelope.
The white envelope began to spin in place on the table, and abruptly became dozens of envelopes, each identical, each whirling like a pinwheel.
"But I can," Lasciel said quietly. I looked up to find her standing on the opposite side of the table from me. "I witnessed the birth of time itself. I watched the mortal coil spring forth from perfect darkness. I watched the stars form, watched this world coalesce, watched as life was breathed into it and as your kind rose to rule it." She put both hands on the table and leaned toward me, her blue eyes cold and hard. "Thus far, I have behaved as a guest ought. But do not mistake propriety for weakness, mortal. I beg you not to oblige me to take further action."
I narrowed my eyes and reached for my Sight.
Before I could use it, my left hand exploded into flame.
Pain, pain, PAIN. Fire, scorching, parboiling my hand as I tried to hold it back with my shield bracelet. The memory of my injury in that vampire-haunted basement came rushing back to me in THX, and my nerve endings were listening.
I fought down a scream, breathing, my teeth snapping together so suddenly and sharply that a fleck of one of my molars chipped away.
It was an illusion, I told myself. A memory. It's a ghost, nothing more. It cannot harm you if you do not allow it to do so. I pushed hard against that memory, turning the focus of my will against it.
I felt the illusion-memory wobble, and then the pain was gone, the fire out. My body pumped endorphins into my bloodstream a heartbeat later, and I drifted on them as my focus started to collapse. I leaned hard against the table, my left hand held close to my chest in pure reflex, my right supporting my weight. I turned my attention to the envelopes and forced my will against them until the illusions grew translucent. I picked up the real envelope.
Lasciel regarded me steadily, her beautiful face unyielding, determined.
"Sooner or later I'll push through anything you throw," I panted. "You know that."
"Yes," she said. "But you will not be able to focus on the divination until you are quit of me. I may force you to exhaust yourself resisting me, in which case you will not attempt the divination. Even if I only delay you until dawn, there will be no need for you to attempt it." She lifted her chin. "Whatever happens, the divination will not be successful."
I let out a low chuckle, which made Lasciel frown at me. "You missed it," I said.
"Missed what?"
"The loophole. I can kill myself trying it while you rock the boat. And after all, this entire exercise is nothing more than a suicide attempt in any case. Why not go through with it?"
Her jaw clenched. "You would murder yourself rather than yield to reason?"
"More manslaughter than murder, I'd say."
"You're mad," the fallen angel said.
"Get me some Alka-Seltzer and I'll foam at the mouth, too." This time I hit Lasciel with the hard look. "There's a child out there who needs me. I'd rather die than let her down. I'm doing the spell, period. So fuck off."
She shook her head in frustration and looked away, frowning. "You are quite likely to die."
"Broken record much?" I asked. I got out the lock of baby-fine hair, set my knife down on the table, and lit the ceremonial candles there. The fallen angel was correct, dammit. The fear stirred dangerously inside me and my fingers shook hard enough to break the first kitchen match instead of kindling it to life.
"If you must do this," Lasciel said, "at least attempt to survive it. Let me help you."
"You can help me by shutting the hell up and going away," I told her. "Hellfire isn't going to be any use to me here."
"Perhaps not," Lasciel said. "But there is another way."
There was a shimmer of light in the corner of my eye, and I turned to see a slowly pulsing silver glow upon the floor in the middle of my summoning circle. Two feet beneath it lay the Blackened Denarius where the rest of Lasciel was imprisoned.
"Take up the coin," she urged me. "I can at least protect you from a backlash. I beg you not to throw your life away."
I bit my lip.
I didn't want to die, dammit. And the thought of failing to save Molly was almost worse than death. The holder of one of the thirty ancient silver coins had access to tremendous power. With that kind of boost, I could probably pull the spell off, and even if it went south I could survive it under Lasciel's protection. Somehow, I knew that if I chose to do it I could get the coin out from under the concrete in only a moment, too.
I stared at the silver glow for a moment.
Then I rolled my eyes and said, "Are you still here?"
Lasciel's face smoothed into an emotionless mask, but there was a subtle, ugly tone of threat in her voice. "You are much easier to talk to when you are asleep, my host."
And she was gone.
Even assuming Exalted bullshit allows us to talk Lash around to not resisting an exorcism because we offer her an alternative?
We still dont know how much information Lasciel can remotely pull out of her Shadow, with or without its consent.
Or how she might react to figuring that Molly can rip her Shadow out of Dresden.
We shouldnt reveal our ability to pull her out of Dresden's head unless we're ready to act on it at short notice, else we give Lasciel preptime to react.
Furthermore? Its also worth remembering that the Shadow of a Fallen Angel is an immensely knowledgeable spirit, in a setting where knowledge is power. Consider how Cowl regarded Bob, and then figure that Lash, even with some of the deliberate gaps in her knowledge/skillset is a much more valuable asset.
I mean, just off the top of my head, she is one of a very few people who remember the full text of the Word of Kemmler, which would allow a necromancer to set up a Darkhallow or to attack the Black Court.
If we yank her out, a LOT of people will want to get their hands on such a valuable asset for their own reasons, from her progenitor to multiple supernatural powers.
We should implement some preparations for that as well.
Thats my two cents.
Commentary and replies later.
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[X] Keep this to yourself until you have some place to put a piece of fallen angel
[X] Talk to Micheal about what SCE can do with denarians and Harry in particular. Ask about the potential issues with the fragment getting free and if can be contained or should be destroyed via MiM.
I don't think Lash's character development is exactly set in stone at this point, she's still dangerous to let out.
It's also worth considering how Molly would actually think about this given the information she has.
Lash is, as far as Molly knows, a part of Lasciel. The power behind a Denarian that been personally responsible for all sorts of awful stuff, including some nasty historical plagues.
Why would she go so far out of her way to save a fragment of that instead of destroying it?
I don't want to kill who Lash becomes, but I think we need to proceed in a way that makes sense for Molly in this context.
Which is where my write in comes into play.
If we talk to Micheal he's probably going to take it back to home office. From that I'd give good odds that we get a message back from Uriel asking us to kindly please not mutilate the souls of major entities unless we're sure it won't come back to bite reality as a whole.
Which would be Molly's motivation to not default to having BBQ Fallen Angel wings.
IC this is directly related to what Micheal's whole job is, so asking him about it is a natural first step to making sure we don't screw up. Which justifies going to him right off the bat.
[X] Talk to Micheal about what SCE can do with denarians and Harry in particular. Ask about the potential issues with the fragment getting free and if can be contained or should be destroyed via MiM.
I don't think Lash's character development is exactly set in stone at this point, she's still dangerous to let out.
It's also worth considering how Molly would actually think about this given the information she has.
Lash is, as far as Molly knows, a part of Lasciel. The power behind a Denarian that been personally responsible for all sorts of awful stuff, including some nasty historical plagues.
Why would she go so far out of her way to save a fragment of that instead of destroying it?
I don't want to kill who Lash becomes, but I think we need to proceed in a way that makes sense for Molly in this context.
Which is where my write in comes into play.
If we talk to Micheal he's probably going to take it back to home office. From that I'd give good odds that we get a message back from Uriel asking us to kindly please not mutilate the souls of major entities unless we're sure it won't come back to bite reality as a whole.
Which would be Molly's motivation to not default to having BBQ Fallen Angel wings.
IC this is directly related to what Micheal's whole job is, so asking him about it is a natural first step to making sure we don't screw up. Which justifies going to him right off the bat.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] BronzeTongue
Yeah, okay, I'm convinced.
Yeah, okay, I'm convinced.
- Location
- Germany
Eh, Lash later kills herself, permanently as far as we know, and it doesn't have any repercussion besides her being dead and a new spirit gestating in Harry's brain.
There is zero evidence that Lash is connected to Lasciel. In fac, we can say with good confidence that they aren't. Moreover, we have at least some evidence for Lash outright dying the moment we extract her from Harry. It's part of her canon motivation - if Harry dies, Lash dies. Because Lash is using parts of Harry's brain and soul to function. Now, if extracted from Harry, she loses access to those the same as if Harry has died. Meaning, she dies.
@DragonParadox what are the chances that Lash just dies if we extract her from her host? Because from where I am standing, they are very much not zero.
*rolls for it*
That seems unlikely to Molly while spirits can consume themselves in some great act of power or be devoured by something larger than themselves they do not just die from being extracted from one environment to another, not if they are fully realized beings and the Lasciel Molly met certainly seemed to be such a being.
Now if Harry were to die of some unrelated cause while the shadow was in his head she would certainly die as she would have no way to detach from his soul and so would be pulled along into death. There is no reason the Fallen would equip their shadows with the capacity to survive the death of their hosts as they would have failed their purpose and more to the point any free-floating aspect of their mind would risk endangering their secrets and plans.
- Location
- washington
word of jim Lasciel is holding a grudge which will probably come up eventually. Given thats probably not what your talking about just wanted to mention it.
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Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Didn't the grudge already show up in Skin Game with Hannah Ascher being Lasciel's new host and wanting Dresden dead?
- Location
- Germany
Well, I'm sure that Lasciel would be holding a grudge against Harry for various reasons, not taking up her Coin and keeping it locked up for example.
We'll maybe get the chance to do something about that eventually, but I don't want to fight a Fallen quite yet.
- Location
- washington
I mean lasciel themselves isn't dead so I dunno. Jim has plots from book 5 which are still running with mysteries and loose ends.