Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Prospalz]

Blampires having so many pronounced weaknesses seems odd to me if they're a deliberately created species of Undead, but I guess the Neverborn who cooked them up was min-maxing hardcore?

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Neverborn are kind of busy experiencing untold agonies every second of their existence, so craftsmanship is kind of difficult.

But, tbh, Black Vamps compare pretty well to, idk, Terrestrial Exalts, so I wouldn't even really say it is that bad as a craftsmanship. Before all their weaknesses got revealed, they got pretty far.

 

[fictionfan]

[X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)
-[x] Stunt "There was something deeply ironic about making a forge and kitchen inside of a freezer. It certainly gave a new meaning to the term 'cold forging'. But was also very practical to make anything movable inside the freezer when practical and having some mundane equipment saved essanse to not have to manifest hell tools for everything. Of course the bleach bath that she had set up down here meant that essence wasn't quite as big a limitation as last time."

 

[Yog]

I guess that the Never-born might be restored. This reality doesn't seem to have an absolute prohibition against true resurrection, but we should test bringing back some regular people first. Bringing a Never-born back to life if likely to be a much harder job if it's even a good idea. The Primordials were overthrown for good reasons.

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I said this before, and I'll say this again: I expect someone to start seeing a beautiful and terrifying Argent Maiden stalking the wilderness at most a year from now (or on a Halloween following us hitting E5), followed (or preceded) by shadows of the darkest hells coalescing into the shape of a dragon. Because if given a merest barest hope of possibility, both Luna and the Yozi will claw back their way out of oblivion, and declare "I was never dead, this was all a perfect dodge". And we are favoring Ebon Dragon charms, so I expect him to be the first one returned. Or Oramus, I guess.

This is a setting with True Resurrection and Time Travel. Time Travel was Watsonially forbidden to prevent exactly the undoing of Primordial War's results, if I understand correctly.

 

[fictionfan]

Neverborn are kind of busy experiencing untold agonies every second of their existence, so craftsmanship is kind of difficult.

But, tbh, Black Vamps compare pretty well to, idk, Terrestrial Exalts, so I wouldn't even really say it is that bad as a craftsmanship. Before all their weaknesses got revealed, they got pretty far.

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If they are Never-born creations then I expect them to have even more weaknesses then are known. Likely on the mental side to encourage them to destroy everything.

 

[Artemis1992]

[X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)

I feel like I would be more worried about this revelation if my Exalted knowledge wasn't basically zero.

Blampires having so many pronounced weaknesses seems odd to me if they're a deliberately created species of Undead, but I guess the Neverborn who cooked them up was min-maxing hardcore?

[X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)

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It's not that they have significant weaknesses that's odd.
The Neverborn are broken shadows of the Creator-Titans that they once were, of course their work is flawed.
It's odd that they have such odd weaknesses.

The Sun is very obvious and well-reasoned, some weaknesses relating to their shadow and reflection is also understandable as an effect similar to resonance.
And the weakness to holy symbols may as well be imposed by the White God without the designers input.

But why the strange ones like Garlic and compulsive counting and all that?
I guess the eternal agony of half-existance drove the Neverborn to some strange glitches in their work.

 

[fictionfan]

But why the strange ones like Garlic and compulsive counting and all that?

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Garlic makes sense if Vampirism is bacterial in nature. Antibiotics wasn't invented until 30 years after Dracula was published. Antibacterial soap might be super effective against vampires.

As for the counting I really couldn't say.

 

[Exmorri]

We also probably want to talk to our father, priest, and, really, Uriel. Because "it's a Creator Being" flies rather strongly in the face of Christian theology.

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Yes. To continue the discussion from before , here is an ecumenical translation of the Nicene Creed, a shared confession of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians, with my annotations for which bits are running into unusual cosmological trouble.

We believe in one God, [in before "monolatrist" technicalities] the Father, the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is seen and unseen. [except for the Exaltations, the Neverborn, and I don't think it stops there] We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, ["eternally" here translates a word meaning something like "before all time" or "since forever ago"] God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial to the Father Through him all things were made. [section regarding Mary and Pilate unchanged] He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, [well some of them] and his kingdom will have no end. [or it ends when the Wheel of Ages turns again] We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, [a] who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. [this is in the sense of "universal" not "Roman Catholic"] We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, [well some of them] and the life of the world to come. Amen.

A quick and dirty solution perhaps being for @DragonParadox to say "Well the Creed is different in this setting."

 

[Klaus Wulfenback]

[X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)

 

[uju32]

Posting...

Turning something liquid would work, though you would have to put it in some kind of container otherwise it would spill all over the place.

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Noted.
Or just wait till we get magic crafting and resmelt Ebon Scales altogether with the Water Dragon spell as one of the components.
A shapeshifting armor that automatically makes you wet seems to cover that.

Ah cool. I forgot for a moment that WoD Incarna are a thing that exist, and are pretty different from Exalted Incarna.

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Celestines. Incarna. Jagglings. Gafflings.

That's... arguable. Mab was designed as a "head from the front" general in the fight against Outsiders. It's entirely possible that "fight titan-like beings" is exactly what her mantle was made for.

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Not really arguable.
I recall Word of Jim that Mab wasnt designed to fight Titans; they all either withdrew from the world, or were significantly depowered. Ethniu retained power by hiding iirc. Cant find the WoG right now though; I think its one of the more recent ones.

Her power is designed to give her a type advantage in her designated area of authority IIRC. It doesnt make necessarily make her more powerful than an Outsider.

Demonreach isnt the most powerful entity on Earth because it imprisoned Ethniu and can imprison Mab, it just has a type advantage. Dresden isnt the most powerful wizard on Earth because he can shank Outsiders, he has a type advantage.
Mortal shamans of the Diné arent more powerful than naagloshi, they have a type advantage.

Also, Mab can punt Odin, who can shank Ferrovax, who is Mab's equal.
Remember that there's a bit of rock paper scissors going on.

It might count as cover, if it doesn't, I feel that giving it total 10 soak is still a reasonable estimate, forcefield and all.

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Ignoring Stamina because Agg?
Armor 3(whether from magic item or a supernatural ability) + NotFortitude 9 is 12 soak, before whatever the hell his magical forcefields can do. Modelled as a W20 Werewolf? The Gift Luna's Armor + Stamina 8 will give 12 Soak just to start with.

I assume there are conditional loopholes to his defenses, hence Injun Joe doing a shapeshifting battle instead of spellcasting.
But you are really underestimating this thing.
Its the most horrifying self-contained miniboss we've seen in the Dresdenverse yet.

Its notable that, outside Nicodemus's crew?
It along with Cowl, Mavra and the Genoskwa, are the only book antagonists to survive a combat encounter with Dresden as of Skin Game. And Dresden didnt even beat it; he required plot ex machina to survive.

Here, we're the presumed plot ex machina, and we'd have to pop shintai. To start.

If it was me? I would assume that we were dealing with an ancient-equivalent at base under this game system(physical stats in the 8-10 range). Then start stacking merits(Senior Council magic, mythic shapeshifting, mythic combat regen, resistances) and flaws(Blessing Way vulnerability, power loss outside home territory, psychic stench removing ability to achieve surprise against wizards) onto that template.

So, I tried to run the numbers.

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1)We feel like a miniDarkhallow. We're not ambushing a millenia old spiritual predator without it seeing us coming.
Not without BMI to hide our everything.

2)DCs are capped at 9 max. At least for Exalts.
So you can assume that your difficulties only go that high.

If we are doing an ambush from a prepared position,

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See the above comment about feeling like a miniDarkhallow.
The skinwalker similarly has a psychic stench about it that prevents it sneaking up on anyone with the senses to perceive
It can achieve tactical surprise on a battlefield, but you'll know the skinwalker is there long before you see it.

 

[Artemis1992]

Garlic makes sense if Vampirism is bacterial in nature. Antibiotics wasn't invented until 30 years after Dracula was published. Antibacterial soap might be super effective against vampires.

As for the counting I really couldn't say.

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Those things and some of the other weird signs and weaknesses of vampirism in folklore always have some reason and sense in reality.
But the question is not why people thought Vamps would have these weaknesses, it's why Neverborn-designed Vampires would actually have them in a world in which they factually exist.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

Anyway - Black Court are servants of a Neverborn. Worst case scenario - Black court are first circle demons of a Neverborn. We should definitely destroy them on sight. They are likely the ones most aware of who and what we are.

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What we should be concerned about, if anything, is the possible existence of one or more Hekatonkhires.

 

[DragonParadox]

Those things and some of the other weird signs and weaknesses of vampirism in folklore always have some reason and sense in reality.
But the question is not why people thought Vamps would have these weaknesses, it's why Neverborn-designed Vampires would actually have them in a world in which they factually exist.

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Usum: You could capture one of the creatures Majesty and study them.

 

[LightLan]

Usum: You could capture one of the creatures Majesty and study them.

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Molly to Harry: Can I keep it? Please?

 

[fictionfan]

Yes. To continue the discussion from before , here is an ecumenical translation of the Nicene Creed, a shared confession of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians, with my annotations for which bits are running into unusual cosmological trouble.

We believe in one God, [in before "monolatrist" technicalities] the Father, the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is seen and unseen. [except for the Exaltations, the Neverborn, and I don't think it stops there] We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, ["eternally" here translates a word meaning something like "before all time" or "since forever ago"] God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial to the Father Through him all things were made. [section regarding Mary and Pilate unchanged] He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, [well some of them] and his kingdom will have no end. [or it ends when the Wheel of Ages turns again] We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, [a] who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. [this is in the sense of "universal" not "Roman Catholic"] We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, [well some of them] and the life of the world to come. Amen.

A quick and dirty solution perhaps being for @DragonParadox to say "Well the Creed is different in this setting."

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It's easy to see why we had atheist/agnostic knights of the cross. Generally it seems better to work for the good and assume that the white god is on the same team working for the good rather than a representation or embodiment of the good.

 

[Artemis1992]

2)DCs are capped at 9 max. At least for Exalts.
So you can assume that your difficulties only go that high.

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It is, but I still think that cap should apply after all increases and discounts.

If someone has 10 WP, we make an attack at WP-difficulty then the end-difficulty is 9.
But if someone has 10 WP, we make an attack with difficulty reduced by -2 due to some Charm, then final difficulty is 8.

 

[ImBuda]

You know I would have thought that it would be Mother winter and summer the only incarna in the settings, also if we compare Mab to Sol Invictus or Luna, Mab in comparison is a lot weaker.

 

[Yog]

2)DCs are capped at 9 max. At least for Exalts.
So you can assume that your difficulties only go that high.

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If I understand correctly, DC 9 is a cap after all difficulty reducers (see the latest roll for example). So, if we start with difficulty 30, apply diddiculty reduction to 26, it'll reduce to 9. But if we start with 13, apply - 4 DC to 9, it'll stay at 9.

As to ambushing it - All Things Betray + good sniper rifle optics should allow us to snipe it with SBS from several kilometers away.

 

[Artemis1992]

Might be that there are no Celestians in Dresdenverse, or only the Mothers and Angels.

But there are definitly lots of Incarna, from Mab being the high end, to any Naagloshii being on the lower end.

 

[Arhin]

[X] Dreaming True, Rosie is doing great so far, but she still needs more training before she can get a proper hold of her powers (3/10 pogress)

 

[uju32]

Of Blackest Dreams

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COMMENTARY
-Nice poetry. Id have said Winds instead of Whirlwinds, but thats not bad.

-Pyreflame is a reference to Creation's Underworld.


-Neverborn eh? I wonder if these are WoD Neverborn, or Exalted Neverborn.
Or the same thing. As a brief primer

Neverborn Malfeans have almost god-like powers and are potentially the most destructive beings in existence. Thankfully, most of them remained asleep deep in the Labyrinth through most of history, waiting for Oblivion to consume everything; they controlled their Spectres and worshippers through dreams and the powers of the Hive-Mind.

How they came into existence was unknown, and they were thought to have simply been around since the creation of the world. One theory is that they represent the cosmic pain created when life and death were separated. Another is that they represent beings who existed before the universe began or are themselves the shards of dead or husk universes, such as the Qlippoth. The Ascension supplement for Mage: The Ascension states that they are the opposite cosmic force of the Psychopomps, encouraging the destruction of all things as the Psychopomps aim to reunite the One. In the Book of Madness Revised, at least some of the infernal entities served by the Nephandi are revealed to be manifestations or dreams of the slumbering Malfeans.

The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra suggests the "Children of the Baali" may be the Malfeans. These beings have physical bodies in self-created tombs in the earth, but their souls and minds exist in the Labyrinth, forever dreaming. The Baali seek to keep the Malfeans' consciousnesses from reuniting with their terrestrial bodies through sacrifices and depravity. If this lore were correct, it would suggest, as the Wraith corebook does, that the Malfeans are indeed physical manifestations of the pain of death itself (literally taking on the form of flesh and soul forever severed).

For many wraiths, there was nothing more powerful or more feared until the destruction brought around by the Sixth Great Maelstrom. Only Gorool had been active prior to this, and he was animated by Charon's Shadow, making him something less than Neverborn. It is said that when Xerxes Jones used his nuclear blast in the Labyrinth, the Neverborn began to stir.

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Neverborn (WOD)

Neverborn is the name given to the ancient Malfeans who slept deep in the Labyrinth. They are also called "Primordials", "Never Dead", and "Grotesques". Neverborn Malfeans have almost god-like powers and are potentially the most destructive beings in existence. Thankfully, most of them remained...

whitewolf.fandom.com

-If Bob recognized that? So did Mab.
After all, she has the creator of the Black Court and his lover frozen in her garden in Arctis Tor.
We saw them, but didnt recognize them.

Usum was probably right there in the garden when Dracula was brought in.
I suspect that when we meet our first Blampire, Usum is going to recognize them by the flavor of their power.


-Gonna note that Drakul canonically created the first Black Court vampires.
But it was his son Dracula that created the Black Court. And he's currently an icicle in Mab's garden. If there's a Neverborn involved, it suggests two things
=Drakul isnt a Blampire. He's something else
=Bargains were made

Worth noting that Drakul(NOT Dracula) is supposed to be strong enough to be one of those capable of beating Mab 1v1.

OOC: I figured since you were here it would make sense to ask the Neverborn question in company. Also Bob still has no filter when it comes to horrifying eldritch knowledge

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Thats why we love him
Poor Lash is suffering all kinds of whiplash I suspect.

Anyway - Black Court are servants of a Neverborn. Worst case scenario - Black court are first circle demons of a Neverborn. We should definitely destroy them on sight. They are likely the ones most aware of who and what we are.
We also probably want to talk to our father, priest, and, really, Uriel. Because "it's a Creator Being" flies rather strongly in the face of Christian theology.

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1)Black Court vampires are created by a Neverborn.
As any survivor of Creation, or fan of the Terminator franchise will attest, creating something does not make it your servant. Blampires spent centuries in ascendance pursuing their own personal interests.

2)Why?
By those standards, Molly, Lydia and the Ordo Lebes are all creator beings; they literally just made a sapient dark spirit as a genius loci last month in a collaborative project.

Drakul being an old Abyssal makes sense. Relatively pathetic showings for one, I guess, but he might be jobbing.
There's also a point that in this thinner reality, resurrection is possible. Neverborn, at least some of them, might possibly be curable / restorable.

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No it doesnt. Drakul had/has a kid. Abyssals are infertile.
And Drakul is allegedly in the same weight class as Mab, who is an Incarna.
Thats rather buffer than an ExWoD Abyssal.

 

[Alratan]

If I understand correctly, DC 9 is a cap after all difficulty reducers (see the latest roll for example). So, if we start with difficulty 30, apply diddiculty reduction to 26, it'll reduce to 9. But if we start with 13, apply - 4 DC to 9, it'll stay at 9.

As to ambushing it - All Things Betray + good sniper rifle optics should allow us to snipe it with SBS from several kilometers away.

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I think we're better off using Principle Invoking Onslaught and creating something like a Starstreak missile launcher to shoot it from extreme range.

That's because we can HMP the guided missiles to track it while it's moving, and it will do vastly more damage.

 

[Yog]

-Neverborn eh? I wonder if these are WoD Neverborn, or Exalted Neverborn.

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Perfected Principle of Consumption is a canon Exalted Neverborn.

No it doesnt. Drakul had/has a kid. Abyssals are infertile.

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Could have had a kid before exalting. Could have adopted / biomanced one.

And Drakul is allegedly in the same weight class as Mab, who is an Incarna.
Thats rather buffer than an ExWoD Abyssal.

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WoD incarna, not Exalted Incarna. This has been clarified. Incarna are still fightable in WoD from my very limited understanding.

And a 400 years old Abyssal? That's E5, all charms bought, well into homebrew and starting to look at Elder essence in this limited world level.

 

[Artemis1992]

No it doesnt. Drakul had/has a kid. Abyssals are infertile.
And Drakul is allegedly in the same weight class as Mab, who is an Incarna.
Thats rather buffer than an ExWoD Abyssal.

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Drakul has supposedly created the first Blampires.
Dracula is one of the first Blampires.
Maybe taking him as Drakul's son should not be taken absolutly literally in the sense of human fatherhood, but rather assume that Drakul made Dracula a Blampire.

And an Exalt that reaches the limits of power one has in ExWoD could absolutly find ways to push it further, especially over centuries.
Holden's primary argument for the hard limit of E5 is not just that more is impossible, but also that the (Celestial-tier) Exalted have just recently returned and by the time one figures out how to break the rules and do the impossible we are in a completly unrecognisable sci-fi/fantasy setting only loosely based on the WoD, so not the point of his book.

Edit: Sorry, I mixed up some of his WoG there. The sci-fi part comes from the question about Exalted's natural lifespans, stating that the first Solar to die of old age would propably do so while exploring Alpha Centauri.
About Essence 6 he just said:

Maybe somewhere centuries down the road an ambitious sorcerer could find a way to eat the entire Shade Realm of Forces to catalyze a jump to post-Exalted godhood or something, but it's more likely they'd just blow themselves to bits or pro- duce some other catastrophic problems in the attempt

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Edit2: Mostly ninja'd by Yog

 

[Prospalz]

TBH, Holden's Watsonian justifications for the lack of E6+ are kind of shit. Antedeluvian vamps exist, deep space with spooky scary uber-spirits exist, archmages exist, arhats exist, all sort of suitably epic stuff that you could ritualistically drain to make the E6 jump exists. A lot of beings on the list made the jump without needing any sort of destructive rituals, too, just by training and not skipping the leg/dharma/arete day.

Nobody else besides the Exalts actually cares about that "reality is too thin" nonsense.

Doylists-wise, Elder Essence always was a gigantic mess that was mechanically overwhelming and narratively underwhelming*, and I understand completely just cutting it at the root. I'd prefer if he was more straightforward about it rather than attempt to feed the readers "Eh, reality is too diminished for that" line of bullshit, but whatever.

*As in, writers wrote a bunch of charms, and then completely ignored the impact of those charms on the setting or main narrative they were trying to push.

 

[Artemis1992]

It feels like Vampire (including KotE) was the only setting that managed its 6+ Powers decently and incorporated them into the general plot.

Werewolf only has Gifts up to 6 and no significant upgrades for Werewolves beyond, Mages can definitly do well with 6+ Arete for the purpose of casting, but higher Spheres are supposed to be a shitshow, I don't think Changelings have higher level powers, they just modify their Arts with their Realms, possibly stacking a lot of stuff for bigger effects and I honestly don't know or care much about Wraith.

Oh, and Demons are already reality-altering in some neat ways and Earthbound superpowers just added some ability to manipulate the scope of that further, rather than the nature of those powers, similar to the Changeling-solution of Realms.