Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

TBH, Holden's Watsonian justifications for the lack of E6+ are kind of shit. Antedeluvian vamps exist, deep space with spooky scary uber-spirits exist, archmages exist, arhats exist, all sort of suitably epic stuff that you could ritualistically drain to make the E6 jump exists. A lot of beings on the list made the jump without needing any sort of destructive rituals, too, just by training and not skipping the leg/dharma/arete day.

Nobody else besides the Exalts actually cares about that "reality is too thin" nonsense.

Doylists-wise, Elder Essence always was a gigantic mess that was mechanically overwhelming and narratively underwhelming*, and I understand completely just cutting it at the root. I'd prefer if he was more straightforward about it rather than attempt to feed the readers "Eh, reality is too diminished for that" line of bullshit, but whatever.

*As in, writers wrote a bunch of charms, and then completely ignored the impact of those charms on the setting or main narrative they were trying to push.
I mean, if we are talking ExvsWoD, you can't tell me that Autochton, the genuine issue, the King of All Makers, the author of death, no matter how crippled, starved, or sleepy, is E5, and expect me to buy it.

I do agree that there are very good reasons not to go higher, narratively and mechanically.
 
higher Spheres are supposed to be a shitshow
Absolutely are, they are a nightmare. You are also prolly right about Vampire being the only line who genuinely managed well to incorporate elder powers into its setting.
I do agree that there are very good reasons not to go higher, narratively and mechanically.
Autokun had issues with his void cancer even back in E2; it is entirely possible to scale his E10ness down by saying that in absentia of proper care, he kind of deteriorated to a nigh-comatose state.

Elder essence for us
There were some disparate attempts to do E6+ for ExWoD, but most coherent attempt I managed to find in public places is this doc .
 
If I understand correctly, DC 9 is a cap after all difficulty reducers (see the latest roll for example). So, if we start with difficulty 30, apply diddiculty reduction to 26, it'll reduce to 9. But if we start with 13, apply - 4 DC to 9, it'll stay at 9.

As to ambushing it - All Things Betray + good sniper rifle optics should allow us to snipe it with SBS from several kilometers away.
1) Fair enough.

2)5% Darkhallow.
There's a good chance people with the right senses can currently detect us from the opposite hemisphere.
:V

Lets be clear: Im all for making a trunk gun as a backup weapon thats legal.
Probably a railgun/coilgun, definitely with an embedded cyberdevil for the DC reduction, and maybe Alchemy-treated bullets.
All good. Transcendent Anathema applies, and it seems a cheap way to force the naag to melee or flee.

But I am cautioning against the idea that we can shoot out way out at long range .
Snipers while useful have long been overhyped by mass media and rely on a cooperating enemy in a predictable location, out in the open without obscurants in play. And this is Chicago, which does not exactly have unobstructed signtlines.

Add to that the only naagloshii we see uses veils as standard operating procedure, even in combat.

Perfected Principle of Consumption is a canon Exalted Neverborn.
Yes? WoD and Exalted share a lot of names in their background.
The Scarlet Queen and the Ebon Dragon, the Malfeans, Autochton, Luna, Gaia are all shared names and largely shared characters between the gamelines. WoD used to be explicitly designated to be a possible far future of Exalted.

Could have had a kid before exalting. Could have adopted / biomanced one.
Sure he could have.
But he didnt. Because he isnt an Abyssal. Which you can tell by a key detail in how he's introduced: he has a name.
And is introduced in Blood Rites as only part-mortal.
You're assassins," I said.
He didn't deny it.
"Didn't look like you liked him much," I said.
"There are proprieties between us," Ebenezar said. "A measure of professional courtesy and respect. Boundaries. Kincaid crossed them about a century ago in Istanbul."
"He's not human?"
Ebenezar shook his head.
"Then what is he?"
"There are people walking around who carry the blood of the Nevernever in them," Ebenezar said. "Changelings, for one, those who are half-Sidhe. The faeries aren't the only ones who can breed with humanity, though, and the scions of such unions can have a lot of power. Their offspring are usually malformed. Freakish. Often insane. But sometimes the child looks human."
"Like Kincaid."
Ebenezar nodded. "He's older than I am. When I met him, I still had hair and he had been serving the creature for centuries."
"What creature?" I asked.
"The creature," Ebenezar said. "Another half mortal like Kincaid. Vlad Drakul."

I blinked. "Vlad Tepesh? Dracula?"
Ebenezar shook his head. "Dracula was the son of Drakul, and pretty pale and skinny by comparison. Went to the Black Court as a kind of teenage rebellion. The original creature is… well. Formidable. Dangerous. Cruel. And Kincaid was his right arm for centuries. He was known as the Hound of Hell. Or just the Hellhound."
"And he's afraid of you," I said, my voice bitter. "Blackstaff McCoy. I guess that's your working name."
"Something like that. The name… is a long story."
"Get started, then," I said.
He nodded, absently rubbing the puppy behind the ears. "Ever since the founding of the White Council, ever since the first wizards gathered to lay down the Laws of Magic, there has been someone interested in tearing it apart," he said. "The vampires, for one. The faeries have all been at odds with us at one time or another. And there have always been wizards who thought the world would be a nicer place without the Council in it."
"Gee," I said. "I just can't figure why any wizard would think that."
Ebenezar's voice lashed out, harsh and cold. "You don't know what you're talking about, boy. You don't know what you're saying. Within my own lifetime, there have been times and places where even speaking those words could have been worth your life."
"Gosh, I'd hate to for my life to be in jeopardy. Why did he call you Blackstaff?" I asked, my voice hardening. An intuition hit me. "It's not a nickname," I said. "Is it. It's a title."
I doubt he'd qualify for an Exaltation.

WoD incarna, not Exalted Incarna. This has been clarified. Incarna are still fightable in WoD from my very limited understanding.
And a 400 years old Abyssal? That's E5, all charms bought, well into homebrew and starting to look at Elder essence in this limited world level.
WoD Incarna remain significantly buffer than your E5 Celestial Exalt that I know of.
The guidelines for a single Vampire antediluvian in ExWoD is a pretty significant slog of a combat encounter for a full circle of Exalts. Let alone a proper Incarna.

I will make one more point:
Vlad Drakul has a Name. Names. Abyssals dont, not in ExWoD; they sacrifice it when they Exalt. What they are left with are titles.
Even Neverborn dont have names.
Drakul has supposedly created the first Blampires.
Dracula is one of the first Blampires. Maybe taking him as Drakul's son should not be taken absolutly literally in the sense of human fatherhood, but rather assume that Drakul made Dracula a Blampire.

And an Exalt that reaches the limits of power one has in ExWoD could absolutly find ways to push it further, especially over centuries.
Holden's primary argument for the hard limit of E5 is not just that more is impossible, but also that the (Celestial-tier) Exalted have just recently returned and by the time one figures out how to break the rules and do the impossible we are in a completly unrecognisable sci-fi/fantasy setting only loosely based on the WoD, so not the point of his book.

Edit: Sorry, I mixed up some of his WoG there. The sci-fi part comes from the question about Exalted's natural lifespans, stating that the first Solar to die of old age would propably do so while exploring Alpha Centauri.
About Essence 6 he just said:


Edit2: Mostly ninja'd by Yog
Maybe. But we hear of no other such child of Drakul. People like that seldom stop at one.


The existence of the Dragonblooded clans in canon ExWoD suggests otherwise. They didnt even recreate TMAs that we know of.
Remember that this is not Creation, and the power levels are significantly lower here.
With a significantly more activist Creator Deity in play in the Dresdenverse setting.

I think we're better off using Principle Invoking Onslaught and creating something like a Starstreak missile launcher to shoot it from extreme range. That's because we can HMP the guided missiles to track it while it's moving, and it will do vastly more damage.
Unfortunately, (or fortunately for most wizards) spirits dont automatically have the skill to see through veils IIRC.
And veils are a foundational part of the combat style of the only naagloshii we've ever seen in canon.
So, even absent any ethical issues, using cyberdevils as guidance systems for suicide PGMs wont work.
 
Forgot to vote:

VOTE
[X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)
 
@uju32 I don't know why you keep dragging WOD into this to judge power levels. This is a DF crossover not WOD. Yes PD is drawing on many WOD inspiration when stating out DF characters, but it just that stating out characters. It's seems silly to say the mages of WOD are god kings by the rules therefore the mages of DF must be as well. Or since Incarna are a big deal in WOD and Mab maps onto being a Incarna fairly well so therefore everything Incarna can do Mab must be able to do even if it's never shown in DF.
 
2)5% Darkhallow.
There's a good chance people with the right senses can currently detect us from the opposite hemisphere.
:V
If we go by the elder Skavis (a user of strong sensory enchantments), Katrina Holt (a seer), and other beings with supernatural senses, definitely not.
Lets be clear: Im all for making a trunk gun as a backup weapon thats legal.
Probably a railgun/coilgun, definitely with an embedded cyberdevil for the DC reduction, and maybe Alchemy-treated bullets.
All good. Transcendent Anathema applies, and it seems a cheap way to force the naag to melee or flee.

But I am cautioning against the idea that we can shoot out way out at long range .
Snipers while useful have long been overhyped by mass media and rely on a cooperating enemy in a predictable location, out in the open without obscurants in play. And this is Chicago, which does not exactly have unobstructed signtlines.

Add to that the only naagloshii we see uses veils as standard operating procedure, even in combat.
I wasn't suggesting shooting it with a rifle (and if I did, I would suggest making a combat pulsed laser for a light speed weapon). I was suggesting the following:
1) Find where it lives / visits often enough
2) Find a good vintage point several kilometers away in the city (up in the sky also works)
3) Apply All things Betray and make use of pre-made professional grade optics to observe it from several kilometers away
4) Use Sinner Boiling Stare as a long range attack. It's line of sight, with no distance limitation. As long as we get two or three turns before it hides (and if we apply Seeing is Blindness on the first attack, that is probably reasonable), I think that would be a good enough alpha strike.

If we hide in the sky (just below cloud cover probably), we could probably drop down fast enough (gravity + flight with extra breaking near the surface) to enter combat soon enough to matter. Spend the turn descending to activate Shintai. In order not to suffer falling damage, we could use RVD.
 
[X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)

When we get around to another question block (and have a black court vamp on hand) we should ask who might be considered peers of Perfected Principle of Consumption. Mostly that's the other neverborn, but the yozi could count from a certain perspective since they operate on similar levels and have a shared origin.

Getting a peak at primordials as a group and the former sponsors of Molly's exaltation could lead to some interesting insights.

Without the context of the original exaltations I wonder what Harry might think Molly actually found.

Sure it's the USS Hellfire, slayer of gods, but it also looks a lot like some weird form of reproduction for primordials.

I mean the whole devil-tiger thing wasn't quite the point from the perspective of the yozi, but it's so significant I don't think mortals would assume that.

Trying to explain the exalted as some screwed up divine adoption program could lead to some funny theories from the wizards. :V
 
There were some disparate attempts to do E6+ for ExWoD, but most coherent attempt I managed to find in public places is this doc .
Okay, I actually really love that doc, and the idea of getting mechanical benefits to making tangible progress towards the general goal of "fix everything" that we're already trying to do. I actually really want something like this to be implemented in-quest, but with necessary modifications to fit the changed setting.
 
Okay, I actually really love that doc, and the idea of getting mechanical benefits to making tangible progress towards the general goal of "fix everything" that we're already trying to do. I actually really want something like this to be implemented in-quest, but with necessary modifications to fit the changed setting.
Steps
  • Kill or redeem all vampires. Seems possible for Molly. Although it would likely require her to become the Dark Lord ruling all the courts.
  • Something to do with warlocks. Can't really think of anything.
  • Destroy or redeem the Fomor.
  • Something to do with the fairies.
It's hard to think steps for DF because the groups don't tend to fit into neat boxes.
 
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Steps
  • Kill or redeem all vampires. Seems possible for Molly. Although it would likely require her to become the Dark Lord ruling all the courts.
  • Something to do with warlocks. Can't really think of anything.
  • Destroy or redeem the Fomor.
  • Something to do with the fairies.
It's hard to think steps for DF because the groups don't tend to fit into neat boxes.
I think the courts should count as separate tasks since they're fundamentally different and very influential on the setting. The jades already have their own item, and groups like the werewolves essentially don't exist as cohesive entities, so it wouldn't exactly be out of place.

I agree on the redemption thing likely turning into conquest bit though. We're playing an infernal who wants to be a good person, but she's still an infernal. Turning evil looking power towards good ends is one thing, but it'd feel weird if we got brownie points for straightforward Solar things.

Take the warlocks. For a Solar making the paranet stick would probably work, but an infernal solution would be to do the same thing using copious demon stalkers and guides to ID and train minor talents.

Faeries would probably be a really big one involving taking up a notable part of the burden from the gates. Power is paired with responsibility in the DF for the big players, so getting some extra metaphysical juice just for becoming a load bearing villain important part of the system would fit the setting.

Personally I'm attached to the idea of using BWI pin down the area in front of the gate and force it into the shape of Molly's hell. Nothing says "growing primordial" like reaching out into the horrible eldritch void and bending it into her own little world.

Working out the sacrifices could be tricky though.
 
I agree on the redemption thing likely turning into conquest bit though. We're playing an infernal who wants to be a good person, but she's still an infernal. Turning evil looking power towards good ends is one thing, but it'd feel weird if we got brownie points for straightforward Solar things.
Can a solar mimic the effects of Mercy in Servitude? Because not sure how they would go about the quest besides killing most of them.
 
Can a solar mimic the effects of Mercy in Servitude? Because not sure how they would go about the quest besides killing most of them.
Depends on what exactly you mean by redeem and how much setup they're allowed.

Ritual casting something to mess with them metaphysically is something a twilight could probably cook up, given resources on the scale of the ritual in Changes to work with. Sticking strictly to the book a zenith might be able to stack social charms and launch a reform movement after killing off the truly ancient monsters.

Both could end with them as leaders, but not in the same boss monster kind of way.
 
Faeries would probably be a really big one involving taking up a notable part of the burden from the gates. Power is paired with responsibility in the DF for the big players, so getting some extra metaphysical juice just for becoming a load bearing villain important part of the system would fit the setting.
I could see taking responsibility for guarding the outer gates being something that allows an Exalted to break though to essanse 6.
 
[X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)
 
They seem to go around always veiled. Are you assuming that the veil is umi, rather than light manipulation?
I'm assuming that with All Things Betray we could see past it.

I also have an alternative, and I think more ambitious idea:
1) Use gossamer we got, and, together with Bob, Harry and Lydia make a knockout / paralytic that would work on a naagloshii for at least one minute. That's essentially an overpowered version of a one dot Alchemy recipe
• A powder that, when mixed with alcohol, induces slumber almost immediately. The target must roll Stamina (difficulty 8) or spend a point of Willpower to stay conscious; he must remake this attempt (at a -1 to Difficulty each time) every round until he succumbs or the drug no longer has a chance of success. Unconsciousness lasts for (10 - Stamina) hours, during which they cannot be roused. Vampires are almost immune to this drug (+2 to Stamina, add Fortitude, and effects, if they succumb, last 10 - (Stamina + Fortitude) minutes), but werewolves in their "normal" form (Homid or Lupus) are susceptible (+2 to the roll).

turbocharged to exalted levels by both being made by a celestial exalt (lots of dice), made by a collective of people (Harry, Bob, Lydia, borrow Order's Cauldron or invite the order to participate) and a use of gossamer, which can explicitly be used to make impossible substances, and can probably be modeled as a six dot alchemical recipe
•••••• A legendary substance that takes on the exact properties needed at a given time. There's a -2 difficulty to craft an object from it, and a similar difficulty to any actions taken using that object as a weapon, tool, or otherwise.

This requires buying Alchemy path to one dot.
2) Deliver the drug to Naagloshii. Either a dart, or coat our sword with it, buy Anonymity Through Propriety and sneak it in (does it eat normal food? I would assume so, if only for pleasure), or get a fae stealth specialist to do it.
3) Buy and use Emerald Circle Binding
Emerald Circle Binding
This powerful spell allows the sorcerer to bind a
spirit into her service. It doesn't protect her from the spir-
it's attempts to visit violence upon her during the course
of the binding, and so is best performed after defeating
or bargaining with a spirit, or in the company of allies
who can protect her while she casts the spell.
System: This spell must be performed in the im-
mediate presence of the target spirit (being on the ma-
terial side of the Gauntlet within an area correspond-
ing to the spirit's location in the Penumbra counts).
The Exalt claps her hands and spend 1 Essence, pre-
venting the spirit from leaving her presence while she
performs the rest of this spell. She must then spend 5
Essence and make an extended Intelligence + Occult
roll against a difficulty of the spirit's Gnosis rating.
Once she accumulates a total of 10 successes, the spirit
is bound to her service for a year and a day.
Alternately, if the Exalt has defeated a spirit in bat-
tle within the last two turns, clapping her hands and
spending 1 Essence stops the spirit from dissipating
and draws its Essence temporarily back together. In
this case it remains helpless to oppose her during the
remainder of the spell, as her sorcery is the only thing
preventing its discorporation.
A sorcerer may keep as many bound spirits at a
time as her Essence rating. Any spirit more powerful
than a gaffling or jaggling is beyond the scope of this
spell to bind.

Occult Excellency + Emerald Circle Binding is 6 essence. That's three combat turns, which, if I recall correctly, is roughly 18 seconds (6 seconds per turn, please correct me if I am wrong). In this time we don't need to kill a naagloshii. We need only to survive in its presence.

WoD Wendigos are Gnosis 7. Let's assume Gnosis 9 (because 10 is the maximum possible). So, we'll be rolling at difficulty 8 (9 - 1 BSM), 5, if we are using CCC or trigger TLF (9 - 1 BSM - 3 CCC/TLF), or 3 (9 - 1 BSM - 3 CCC - 3 TLF). We need 10 successes total. We might be able to lower the dificulty if we study what kind of oaths naagloshii betrayed and is still bound by that give Navajo power over it and/or if we discover Molly to have Navajo blood. We should be rolling 20 to 22 dice (18 from Intelligence + Occult, 2 from WHWH, 2 from stunt).

Worst case scenario (20 dice, DC 8), we'll need two turns to accumulate 10 successes. Depending on whether the counting starts at the moment we start spending essence or the moment we spent it, that's either 3 or 5 combat turns that we'll need to survive against Naagloshii, at which point it's bound by Ancient Sorcery and is compelled to obey us by an absolute effect.

Naagloshii is most likely a Jaggling in the spirit hierarchy:
Jagglings
Most of the dangerous spirits the Garou fight in the
Umbra are Jagglings. Nearly all of them can be considered
part of the Weaver, Wyrm, or Wyld — in fact, some are
fanatically devoted because they're formed from a portion
of their patron or master. Pattern Spiders, Nexus Crawlers,
Banes, and Englings are all common examples. Most loyally
serve an Incarna, though a few serve Celestines directly.
Some develop (or earn) free will and independence from
the patron, although this is more common on the remote
fringes and smaller realms of the spirit world. Werewolves are
intimately familiar with the Jagglings who teach them Gifts,
including a wide variety of animal spirits who demonstrate
the instincts and intellects of creatures in the physical world,
albeit in very idealized ways. A Jaggling may also serve as a
reservoir of spiritual power, as is shown by Englings capable of
providing Gnosis to an entire pack (or even a sept) of Garou.
In Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary edition the hierarchy is given as (from top to bottom)
Celestines
Incarnae
Jagglings
Gafflings

Mab is an Incarnae. Naagloshii, for all it's a semi-divine being, is not Mab's equal, so counting it as a high level Jaggling with high Gnosis seems reasonable.

To make this work, we spend XP on Alchemy (we would have done so already), possibly on some stealth charm (again, probably something we'd need to do anyway), and Emerald Circle Binding (our first Ancience Sorcery! Squeee!). Resource-wise we also spend gossamer to make an ultra potent knockout posion (we would also want to spend a Crown on both the gossamer before the making to find more of it, and on the poison afterwards, to learn how to make such things without gossamer). We gain a naagloshhii servant for a year and a day. In that year, with appropriate charms (a lot of social excellencies, Heart-Carving Wind, Chilarity Prohibition Index, Spawning Pit Sanctification, etc) we can either reform or destroy naagloshii completely, after also milking it for all the lore and divine wisdom it has.

Alternatively, we spend XP on Alchemy. One dot recipe from Sorcerer's Companion is
• A potent poison (one with a Toxin Rating of 7)
I wasn't able to find what "toxin rating 7" translates to, narratively, sadly. I think we can safely say that it's a magical strong poison, so the following effect probably applies:
• Strong Poison: The character takes between one
and three levels of lethal damage per turn. Poisons have
a maximum amount of damage they can apply, usually
between five and ten levels of damage. A werewolf can
regenerate this damage normally, but until the poison
has run its course and all the damage has been healed,
subtract one from all dice pools. The only toxins to have
a significant effect on werewolves are supernaturally
enhanced, and as such deal lethal damage.
Depending on whether we can further enchant the poison via using gossamer, and a crown to ask "how do I make the poison I am making as deadly as possible (to naagloshii)?", I think we can push it up to the highest effect (i.e. ten levels of damage per turn)

We can assume that naagloshii would have either an equivalent of
• Resist Toxin (Level One) — The werewolf's body
is hardened against toxins of all sorts. A rat-spirit teaches
this Gift.
System: The werewolf is permanently immunized
to mundane poisons, from arsenic to alcohol, and adds
three dice to resist the effects of Wyrm-enhanced toxins.
This Gift may be turned off and on at will (such as for
enjoying alcohol).
or
• Survivor (Level Five) — The werewolf becomes
an ultimate survivor, with no need of food, water or sleep.
She ignores temperature extremes, natural diseases, and
poisons. Wyrm toxins have only half their normal effect
on her. A tortoise-spirit teaches this Gift.
System: The player spends one Gnosis point and rolls
Stamina + Survival. The effects last for one day per suc-
cess. By spending a second Gnosis point, the character can
gain three extra points of Stamina, and suffers no wound
penalties, but the Gift will prematurely expire 10 rounds
later. The Garou must sleep for at least eight hours when
the Gift wears off, and he awakens ravenously hungry.
So, this would be 5 levesl of lethal, possibly aggravated if we can apply Transcendent Anathema to it, and possibly with 4 more levels of aggravated damage from GSNF per turn. On top of us attacking. That might be a viable strategy.

We'll need to buy alchemy, and we'll need to get into a striking range of naagloshii to deliver the poison. Both might be doable.
 
Maybe. But we hear of no other such child of Drakul. People like that seldom stop at one.


The existence of the Dragonblooded clans in canon ExWoD suggests otherwise. They didnt even recreate TMAs that we know of.
Remember that this is not Creation, and the power levels are significantly lower here.
With a significantly more activist Creator Deity in play in the Dresdenverse setting.
Dragonblooded are not Celestials.
As far as I know they didn't reach Elder Essence very often even in Creation, and if so only 6 or 7, not the world-changing heights of power a Celestial Exalted could reach.
It makes sense that they couldn't reach above that in the diminished world, and even if one or two did over the millenia, it would have resulted in a stronger Dragonblood, that could do some more cool stuff and live a few centuries longer, not a paradigmen-change in the WoD that should have changed its history.

I'd say as long as Drakul keeps his head down and isn't activly trying to destroy the world there is no reason for the White God to go all out in stopping him. I mean, he barely appears in Dresden Files, but as far as I can tell he is just a very powerful being doing its own thing and not really messing with people that don't interfere with that.
Weaker actors with big ambitions are a much greater threat to the world than an old monster chilling out.

Same reason Nicodemus is much worse than say Ferrovax. Sure, Ferro is much more powerful and could possibly be a greater threat to all existance if he wanted to, but for now he's just an old monster doing his thing, while Nick is regularly threatening mankind.
 
Autokun had issues with his void cancer even back in E2; it is entirely possible to scale his E10ness down by saying that in absentia of proper care, he kind of deteriorated to a nigh-comatose state.

Well, yes, he can be diminished and unable to use his full power, but he's still essence 10 is what I think the comment was trying to say.

2)5% Darkhallow.
There's a good chance people with the right senses can currently detect us from the opposite hemisphere.

If that was true this would make the entire concept of stealth worthless to us, do you see the problem there?

We can sneak on people and removing this from our kit just because of a description is silly.

but it also looks a lot like some weird form of reproduction for primordials.

I mean the whole devil-tiger thing wasn't quite the point from the perspective of the yozi, but it's so significant I don't think mortals would assume that.

Trying to explain the exalted as some screwed up divine adoption program could lead to some funny theories from the wizards. :V

Funny thing is, there is an intended part of *reproduction for primordials* in there, they intended to make clones of themselves that would allows them to be free by clearly being out already via the charm that makes you a Yozi, and didn't expect the devil-tigers instead, but they did intend the infernals to become primordials, just… not new ones.
 
I am starting to feel that we are undergoing uncontrollable number inflation. None of these numbers feel right.
Please note that the point I was trying to make was "even at the highest at least somewhat plausible numbers, this is still a viable plan". Even with inflated numbers, it's still entirely possible to bind a naagloshii into our service. Then we lock in an action "convince Naagloshii to abandon evil", where we repeatedly batter it with social combat over a course of the year (with BSM, CCC and likely TLF modifiers).

This is an ambitious plan, but a worthy one, I think. It shifts the problem from "how do we kill an almost unkillable being" to "how do we survive a minute in the presence of a naagloshii while it is actively trying to murder us". The second problem is an easier one, I thin. And the rewards are higher.
 
Please note that the point I was trying to make was "even at the highest at least somewhat plausible numbers, this is still a viable plan".
No, it is not even you in particular, it is like... I feel like the system is being misunderstood? How power escalation works in particular? This is not just this instance.

Elders aren't Elders just because they got +1 soak/+1 other stats across the board over their children, it is because all Elder Disciplines have special charm-like powers that escalate in power with every dot.

If one wants a huge escalation from 7 dots elder vamp, they don't need to add +2 dots of fortitude and a bunch of extraneous dice-adders to scrounge up enough dice for a meaningful upgrade, they need like, a couple of new elder powers/dots of elder disciplines max, and that is already a bigger jump than adding +5 soak or whatever.

For example, 8th dot fortitude power/charm provides what amounts to complete immunity to most mundane sources of damage, 8th dot celerity is flash shenanigans, invisibility in combat or Open Eye of the Hurricane, Potence allows to create anime-esque waves of pressure, and so on.

There is a lot of mechanical power and narrative weight behind every dot of Elder Disciplines and every vamp Generation; treat them with care.
 
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No it doesnt. Drakul had/has a kid. Abyssals are infertile.
And Drakul is allegedly in the same weight class as Mab, who is an Incarna.
Thats rather buffer than an ExWoD Abyssal.
Citation on Abyssals being infertile? I pretty distinctly remember that creating life (via offspring) was explicitly one of the ways to gain resonance, which doesn't make sense if they can't do it anyway.
Naagloshii is most likely a Jaggling in the spirit hierarchy:
In Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary edition the hierarchy is given as (from top to bottom)
Celestines
Incarnae
Jagglings
Gafflings

Mab is an Incarnae. Naagloshii, for all it's a semi-divine being, is not Mab's equal, so counting it as a high level Jaggling with high Gnosis seems reasonable.
Not all Incarnae are created equal. In response to uju's question:
Does a naagloshii qualify as Jaagling or Incarna?
DP said:
It is an incarna, WoD definition for the term is wider than in Exalted
Emerald circle doesn't work.
 
No, it is not even you in particular, it is like... I feel like the system is being misunderstood? How power escalation works in particular? This is not just this instance.

Elders and Methuselah aren't Methuselah because they got +1 soak +1 strength over their children, it is because all Elder Disciplines have special charm-like powers that escalate in power with every dot.

If one wants a huge escalation from 7 dots elder vamp, they don't need to add +2 dots of fortitude and a bunch of extraneous dice-adders to scrounge up enough dice for a meaningful upgrade, they need like, a couple of new elder powers/dots of elder disciplines max, and that is already a bigger jump than adding +5 soak or whatever.

For example, 8th dot fortitude power/charm provides what amounts to complete immunity to most mundane sources of damage, 8th dot celerity is flash shenanigans, invisibility in combat or Open Eye of the Hurricane, Potence allows to create anime-esque waves of pressure, and so on.

There is a lot of mechanical power and narrative weight behind every dot of Elder Disciplines and every vamp Generation; treat them with care.
That is sometimes true, sometimes not.
Getting Flower of Death at Celerity 7 makes you vastly more powerful than a regular Vamp with Celerity 7.

Getting the "run on water" power at 8 is just a bit of utility that rarely comes up.

It's pretty hit and miss, which powers are gamechangers and which moderate boni.
 
Vote closed, time to see what's been going on down below.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Feb 2, 2023 at 6:21 AM, finished with 86 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)
    [X] Dreaming True, Rosie is doing great so far, but she still needs more training before she can get a proper hold of her powers (3/10 pogress)
    [X] Restoring the Last Station: Restoration efforts have been going well and according to Adam some more of the people down in the tunnels have shown interest in their newfound wealth and comfort (2/8)
    -[x] Stunt "There was something deeply ironic about making a forge and kitchen inside of a freezer. It certainly gave a new meaning to the term 'cold forging'. But was also very practical to make anything movable inside the freezer when practical and having some mundane equipment saved essanse to not have to manifest hell tools for everything. Of course the bleach bath that she had set up down here meant that essence wasn't quite as big a limitation as last time."
 
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