Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

@uju32, @Yog, since you two are the two major plan makers, there's another focus you can use; when we had the initial fight with the Kemmlerites at the docks and got shot, when we picked the mangled bullets out of us, we stashed them in our purse "to make a necklace or something out of later." That's another set of bullets that can be traced back with the Crown for information. Preferably, I'd want to know how they knew a Knight of the Cross would be there ahead of time, but if you can think of a more useful suggestion, feel free.
 
@uju32, @Yog, since you two are the two major plan makers, there's another focus you can use; when we had the initial fight with the Kemmlerites at the docks and got shot, when we picked the mangled bullets out of us, we stashed them in our purse "to make a necklace or something out of later." That's another set of bullets that can be traced back with the Crown for information. Preferably, I'd want to know how they knew a Knight of the Cross would be there ahead of time, but if you can think of a more useful suggestion, feel free.
Thanks for the reminder.
We dont currently have any questions to ask, so I think we should save them for followup of the Thule Society/Gorfels question line once we get answers about who tried to have Gorfels shot outside Dresden's apartment.
 
20 people getting into constant arguments about if they should ask a question every single time it comes up, is repetitive and dull.
That's just the nature of quests. There is always cool actions that have costs and therefore arguments. I personally find it funny that uju32 and Yog have been going to the same quests and having the same kind of arguments for about 10 years now.

Yog always wants to stack everything into plans and do everything even it is unlikely to help on the off chance that it does. He is always more for taken action than not. Doesn't want to miss anything. The juice is almost always worth the squeeze.

Well uju32 is incredibly risk adverse and will always argue against any action that might possibly have any downside now or in the future. Juice is almost never worth the squeeze.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 16, 2023 at 12:18 AM, finished with 74 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X]Plan Yog's questions v.1.3
    -[X] Actually concerning questions
    --[X] Question: "Where can I find the largest currently undiscovered and unclaimed collection of writing in the same language?" Focus: the photo of the ritual circle in which [Perfected Principle of Consumtpion] was invoked.
    --[X] Question: "What information was the competition looking for by trying to make this purchase?". Focus: the recordings (such as the receipt we got for paying) from the police auction
    --[X] Question: "For what reason did the man who once lived here harass Harry?". Focus: Detective's house
    --[X] Question: "Who killed the man this tombstone is dedicated to?". Focus: Detective's tombstone
    --[X] Question: "Who attempted to shoot Harry from this place?". Focus: The roof from which the shot was made
    --[X] Question: "What prophecies feature the people in this photo?" Focus: Carpenter family photo
    --[X] Question: "What are the best, most comprehensive sources covering the subject if this book?"Focus: each of our school subject textbooks.
    -[X] General curiosity questions
    --[X] Question: "where might I find what the organization behind this website seeks?" Focus: SETI website
    --[X] Question: "How did humans actually appear?" Focus: a copy of Darwin's "Origin of the Species"
    --[X] Question: "Which of the organizations in this list are the most mired in the supernatural?" Focus: an online list of USA universities
    [X]Crown Questions Alpha
    -[X][Gorfel Assassination Attempt]: Bullet souvenir focus: Chain of command/people involved/that led to a sniper shooting bullets at us/Gorfel outside Harry's apartment.
    -[X][Lieutenant Greene Murder]: Grave focus: Sequence of people involved in the murder of the person buried here
    -[X][Lieutenant Greene Assault]: White Ford focus: Persons responsible for Lieutenant Greene assault outside Dresden apartment
    -[X][Lieutenant Greene Dresden Home Visit]: Greene Home Focus: Which person(s) sent the man who used to live here to Dresden's apartment the day we captured Gorfels?
    -[X][Warehouse Crime Scene]: Surveillance camera system focus: Sequence of orders/people involved in its acquisition in time to frame Dresden
    -[X][Warehouse Crime Scene]: Dismemberment site focus: Greene's actual murder site
    -[X][Car Auction Focus]: Purchase Receipt Focus: Motives of the other prospective buyers for Kattrin's ex-vehicle/Black Rider's current chassis
    --[X] Question: "Where can I find the largest currently undiscovered and unclaimed collection of writing in the same language?" Focus: the photo of the ritual circle in which [Perfected Principle of Consumtpion] was invoked.
 
@uju32, @Yog, since you two are the two major plan makers, there's another focus you can use; when we had the initial fight with the Kemmlerites at the docks and got shot, when we picked the mangled bullets out of us, we stashed them in our purse "to make a necklace or something out of later." That's another set of bullets that can be traced back with the Crown for information. Preferably, I'd want to know how they knew a Knight of the Cross would be there ahead of time, but if you can think of a more useful suggestion, feel free.
Oh, that's a good one. A little change to the specific question though.
Essentially everything in the General Curiosity section needs to go.
So does the Carpenter family question.
I disagree. Very strongly too. I already explained my reasoning for why I want those questions. To reiterate:
1) Aliens - I am generally curious. This is important world building from the perspective of figuring out power levels and the scope of the setting involved. This is something that might lead us to surviving exalted-era demons. This is something to redirect Daedalus to, potentially, that actually fits their mandate.
2) Origins of humanity - this is an important question from the perspective of "is this setting the future of Exalted, or a separate Reality?".
3) University - Molly is at the stage of selecting the college, or close to it. It's a relevant question, long-term
4) Carpenter family - this includes Molly too, I note. And we need to know if there are prophecies concerning us, and our siblings.

Ultimately, though, I, as a player, want to ask these questions, and they don't cost us much.
Observation 2
Crown focuses are a non renewable resource.
The Carpenter family question needs to go. So does the one that burns the entire Old Realm category.
And the question about the auction.
My question doesn't burn Old Realm category. It burns the photo. That was confirmed by QM. That's the reason I am asking it in the form I am it. The Carpenter family question would burn the photo, not the Carpenter family category. The auction question would burn the receipt.

You are badly failing into the "never use a resource while waiting for a perfect opportunity to use the resource" fallacy.
Observation 3
Nobody tried to kill Harry from the rooftop.
They tried to kill Gorfels.
Thanks, corrected. I am combining your vote with mine to expand it and make it more comprehensive. I don't think I need to change the Green question in regards to why he tried to harass Harry. We don't know that he was ordered or coerced or bribed to do so. That's why I am asking "why did he harass Harry?". If it turns out that the answer is "he was threatened" we could use a number of other foci (his photo, his badge number, his wife (I think he was married?), his partner, his car, etc) to further refine the question.

[X]Plan Yog's questions v.1.4
-[X] Actually concerning questions
--[X] [Old realm investigation] Question: "Where can I find the largest currently undiscovered and unclaimed collection of writing in the same language?" Focus: the photo of the ritual circle in which [Perfected Principle of Consumtpion] was invoked.
--[X] [Black Rider investigation follow-up] Question: "What information was the competition looking for by trying to make this purchase?". Focus: the recordings (such as the receipt we got for paying) from the police auction
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "For what reason did the man who once lived here harass Harry?". Focus: Detective's house
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "Who killed the man this tombstone is dedicated to?". Focus: Detective's tombstone
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "What was the actual murder scene of detective Green?" Focus: the dismemberment site
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "Who was ultimately responsible for the murder of a police detective murdered here?" Focus: detective Green's actual murder site
--[X] [Daedalus corruption investigation] Question: "Who was involved in the evidence recorded by this camera system being acquired by Deadealus in time to frame Dresden?" Focus: Surveillance camera system in the warehouse crime scene
--[X] [Thule Society investigation] Question: "What was the full chain of events that led the people who shot these bullets to know where and when to be to shoot them?" Focus: The bullets shot at us during initial meeting with Brother Divsimar.
--[X] [Thule Society investigation] Question: "Who attempted to shoot Gorfiel / us from this place?". Focus: The roof from which the shot was made
--[X] [Thule Society investigation] Question: "what was the chain of command involved in the shooting of this bullet at us/Gorfel outside Harry's apartment". Focus: Bullet souvenir
--[X] [Carpenter family security] Question: "What prophecies feature the people in this photo?" Focus: Carpenter family photo
--[X] [Training setup] Question: "What are the best, most comprehensive sources covering the subject if this book?"Focus: each of our school subject textbooks.
-[X] General curiosity questions
--[X] Question: "where might I find what the organization behind this website seeks?" Focus: SETI website
--[X] Question: "How did humans actually appear?" Focus: a copy of Darwin's "Origin of the Species"
--[X] Question: "Which of the organizations in this list are the most mired in the supernatural?" Focus: an online list of USA universities

My arguments and positions:
1) "There are too many questions". Maybe ( @DragonParadox please tell us if there are too many question, I would, of course, narrow it down), but I would argue not. They are categorized into several categories, several of which are almost certainly overlapping. Thule investigations, which overlap with Detective Green Investigation and Daedalus investigation. These ones are connected and shouldn't be too diverse. The second category is trying to dig into the setting's lore, which I am very interested about, or setting up further investigations. That's the "general curiousity" questions, and "collection of old realm" question. As people have noticed, I am very interested in exalted side of the crossover. These are the questions that aim at that part of the setting. Carpenter family phophecies part is related to those questions in part (because Molly is in that photo, and there might well be prophecies related to the return of Exalted), but is also aimed at the security of our family. It's quite relevant, and I would like to know ahead of time if, say, our brother was fated to die for his love or something like that. The books and college questions would take, like, one line to answer, and shouldn't be too strenuous. They are to setup further training and in part plot.
2) "The entire Old Realm question would be burned" - it won't. Only the text in the photo would be burned. At most we are losing [Perfected Principle of Consumption] as a focus. And this gives us access to further questions about Old Realm by letting us know where to find more sources of the language.
3) The main "immediate" plot section is all related to police corruption and Thule society. This is what will move the plot forwards primarily. The other parts are something I want in general, and are to setup further plot. Limiting ourselves to only the immediate is not wise, in my opinion.
4) Prohpecies stuff specifically is incredibly in line with MOlly's urge to see the bad things coming first.

Frankly, if DragonParadox doesn't think it's too much work, parts of these questions are to make (for me) the story more fun and interesting (not that it isn't, it very much is!). The questions aren't reneweable, yes, but I feel I was quite responsible with the use of foci. Let me have my goddamn fun.
 
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Rethinking things, it is not yet time to go after the old realm plot line as we are pretty ap starved as it is.

[] uju32
 
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Rethinking things, it is not yet time to go after the old realm plot line as we are pretty ap starved as it is.

[x] uju32
Which is why I specified "unclaimed and undiscovered". Under those conditions, the collection of writing should continue undisturbed for a long time. I want to know now-ish, so we know what to prepare for when we go after it. I expect it would take long term prep. Like, if the collection is located at the Scar, deep in NeverNever in between two Yomi hells, that's one thing. If it's in Tibet, on the walls of Black Vault, it's another. If it's on the bottom of the Mariana trench, it's yet another way we need to prep the lore retrieval expedition.

Point is, we lose nothing by asking now, and gain time to prepare.

Edit: oh, and second point. Mab is tempting us with old knowledge. Knowledge about exaltation. We rather benefit from exploring exalted lore BEFORE meeting her, as it weekens her postion. If we discover ruins of Yu Shan and some explanation on what exaltation is, she has far less to bargain with.
 
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I disagree. Very strongly too. I already explained my reasoning for why I want those questions. To reiterate:
1) Aliens - I am generally curious. This is important world building from the perspective of figuring out power levels and the scope of the setting involved. This is something that might lead us to surviving exalted-era demons. This is something to redirect Daedalus to, potentially, that actually fits their mandate.
2) Origins of humanity - this is an important question from the perspective of "is this setting the future of Exalted, or a separate Reality?".
3) University - Molly is at the stage of selecting the college, or close to it. It's a relevant question, long-term
4) Carpenter family - this includes Molly too, I note. And we need to know if there are prophecies concerning us, and our siblings.

Ultimately, though, I, as a player, want to ask these questions, and they don't cost us much.
1)It isnt.
Exalted has no aliens. Dresden Files has no aliens. World of Darkness has space activity in the Mage line, but no aliens.
We got told that after the Cleveland job that the alien abduction stories were Fomor.

This is an urban fantasy setting.


2)No reason to know this.
You are boxing in the QM prematurely on a subject they might very well have to change their mind about, even if they had a fixed idea right now.

And its explicitly noted by the QM that you would be burning the entire topic of Evolution to do this.


3) IC, Molly is not going to up and move to another city to go to college in the current environment.
Her family is here, her friends are here, people she has made commitments to are here.

OOC, we're not going to devote in excess of *checks*a thousand pages worldbuilding and setting atmosphere in Chicago only to abandon it and move to another city to start all over again in order to attend university.
This is just burning a question to burn a question.

Especially since its one of those things that just asking around the supernatural grapevine will tell you.


4)-First meeting with Gard was her telling us that we are Outside Fate.
Whether it is because Marcone has a sense of irony or sheer coincidence you do the hand-off of the money on a street-corner not twenty yards from the entrance of a small bank office. You had half expected to see the man himself waiting for you there, but instead the five of you are greeted by a woman, blond, blue eyed and attractive enough that they would probably put her on the cover of Vogue even in the suit she is wearing... maybe especially in that suit now that you think of it.

As she measures you up you return the favor. Between the sword callouses on her hands and the dagger-sharpness of her gaze you guess she is a lot more than what she seems. Her first words to you confirm it. "You walk outside fate Margret Katherine, beware where you step."
Prophecies do not apply to Molly. Exalted defy prophecy.


-The Carpenter family is not special that way.

Dresden developed an IC theory that all Knights are descended from royalty somewhere in their lineage, but given the sheer fecundity of humanity in general and the feudal nobility in particular, that means fuckall; see how 1 in 200 people are descended from Genghis Khan. (Michael is supposed to be descended from Charlemagne, if you're interested. Shiro from the last king of Okinawa. And I think Sanya is Saladin. Allegedly.)


-Even if you believed the Carpenters were subjects of a prophecy, the Crown is limited by Free Will.
That means that it is going to give you misleading information everywhere it intersects with human choices. Just like Dresden didnt die where Gard said he was fated to die because Marcone intervened, or how Michael didnt die on Demonreach because Dresden made different choices.

Prophecy doesnt appear to work in the fixed, this is going to happen model in Dresdenverse.
Its more along the lines of a warning of possible events.
And if there was an applicable prophecy about the family of a Knight of the Cross, you'd think he'd have heard about it by now.

My question doesn't burn Old Realm category. It burns the photo. That was confirmed by QM. That's the reason I am asking it in the form I am it. The Carpenter family question would burn the photo, not the Carpenter family category. The auction question would burn the receipt.

You are badly failing into the "never use a resource while waiting for a perfect opportunity to use the resource" fallacy.
Correction taken. Let me rephrase.
The only photo we have of the transference ritual that Arawn did. The only photo of the name of a possible Neverborn.
WoG is explicit that you would burn that entire thing by using it this way.


You are using the Crown as a broad fishing expedition instead of the focused instrument it should be.
To be pulled out when we're under time pressure, or when alternative investigative methods fail.
And in the process you're risking pulling a Leet by burning a bunch of low-lying foci.
 
OOC, we're not going to devote in excess of *checks*a thousand pages worldbuilding and setting atmosphere in Chicago only to abandon it and move to another city to start all over again in order to attend university.
This is just burning a question to burn a question.
DP has been willing to do that in prior quests.

Though in hindsight I question if it was that great an idea.
Attachment to the locality and staying around to see the consequences of your actions are both very important to get people invested in the quest-world, not just Molly herself.
 
Rethinking things, it is not yet time to go after the old realm plot line as we are pretty ap starved as it is.

[] uju32
^^^
We have other, immediately pressing concerns to deal with.

Furthermore, its just horrible timing.
I mean, Mab did see the ritual circle on the ground when she walked into the museum. If she has people looking for instances of it right now, shit that the Crown tells you is unclaimed now might not be next week. So you burn that to no purpose.

DP has been willing to do that in prior quests.

Though in hindsight I question if it was that great an idea.
Attachment to the locality and staying around to see the consequences of your actions are both very important to get people invested in the quest-world, not just Molly herself.
Different setting.
Our Mentor 5 is in Chicago. Our crush is in Chicago. Our friends are in Chicago, the Dragons Nest we're refurbing is in Chicago, the minions we are recruiting is in Chicago. A lot of the major canon happenings of the setting are location-specific.

Its been hard enough to restrain ourselves from continually inserting Molly into Dresden's life as it is.
I find it hard to believe the playerbase or the QM is interested in doing all this stuff from scratch, in a different city, with strangers.
 
1)It isnt.
Exalted has no aliens. Dresden Files has no aliens. World of Darkness has space activity in the Mage line, but no aliens.
We got told that after the Cleveland job that the alien abduction stories were Fomor.

This is an urban fantasy setting.
Spiral absolutely had sapient non-human extraterrestrials. First circle demons would fall under the definition of "sapient non-human non-terrestrial aliens". Arguably, angels fall under the same. Outsiders certainly might. Lovecraft was right in the setting, and he wrote heavily of extraterrestrials.

2)No reason to know this.
You are boxing in the QM prematurely on a subject they might very well have to change their mind about, even if they had a fixed idea right now.

And its explicitly noted by the QM that you would be burning the entire topic of Evolution to do this.
If @DragonParadox doesn't want this question (thinks it's not a good idea to explore it now for whatever reason), they merely need to say so, and I'll remove it. Otherwise, yes, i think the origin of humanity is a good question to ask, and the topic of human evolution is one I am willing to burn out for this.


3) IC, Molly is not going to up and move to another city to go to college in the current environment.
Her family is here, her friends are here, people she has made commitments to are here.

OOC, we're not going to devote in excess of *checks*a thousand pages worldbuilding and setting atmosphere in Chicago only to abandon it and move to another city to start all over again in order to attend university.
This is just burning a question to burn a question.

Especially since its one of those things that just asking around the supernatural grapevine will tell you.
Firstly, it would be burning a question about the list of universities in USA. That's not a very improtant focus. Secondly, even if she isn't going to attend a college outside Chicago (remember, she can commute using RVD, so she doesn't actually have to move out to attend, say, MIT, or MIskatonic or whatever), learning of it to investigate it is a good investment of time for later. The argument of investigating it via more mundane means is a good one, but it'll attract attention to us.

4)-First meeting with Gard was her telling us that we are Outside Fate.
Whether it is because Marcone has a sense of irony or sheer coincidence you do the hand-off of the money on a street-corner not twenty yards from the entrance of a small bank office. You had half expected to see the man himself waiting for you there, but instead the five of you are greeted by a woman, blond, blue eyed and attractive enough that they would probably put her on the cover of Vogue even in the suit she is wearing... maybe especially in that suit now that you think of it.

As she measures you up you return the favor. Between the sword callouses on her hands and the dagger-sharpness of her gaze you guess she is a lot more than what she seems. Her first words to you confirm it. "You walk outside fate Margret Katherine, beware where you step."
Prophecies do not apply to Molly. Exalted defy prophecy.
Exalted defy prophecies, yes (leaving Samsara mechanic aside). Not all prophecies are true or correct, or get fulfilled. Where did you see "prophecies that will come true" qualifier in my question? Dresdenverse is explicitly a setting with Free Will. Yet fate still exists. Prophecies would have to account for it. If there was a phophecy "Molly Carpenter is destined to become Winter Lady", even if it's broken now, if someone learned about it existing, it wouldn't necessarily stop them from acting on it.

Plus, exalted returning to the modern age might well have been prophesized. It's a kind of cataclysm apocalyptic prophecies are centered around. And such a prophecy would apply to Molly.
And if there was an applicable prophecy about the family of a Knight of the Cross, you'd think he'd have heard about it by now.
This is redundant circular logic. Knights of the Cross do not get intellectus or anything like that. A number of events can surprise them.

And our family is mortal, yes, but it doesn't mean there aren't prophecies about them. I want to check. Simple as that. Want to make sure they won't be kidnapped or sacrificed, or will have to go on a quest without preparation.
Correction taken. Let me rephrase.
The only photo we have of the transference ritual that Arawn did. The only photo of the name of a possible Neverborn.
WoG is explicit that you would burn that entire thing by using it this way.


You are using the Crown as a broad fishing expedition instead of the focused instrument it should be.
To be pulled out when we're under time pressure, or when alternative investigative methods fail.
And in the process you're risking pulling a Leet by burning a bunch of low-lying foci.
Use it for something better, then. Letting it sit there is a bad choice. Resources are meant to be used, not hoarded. Yes, we'll lose [Perfected Principle of Consumption] as a focus. We'd need to acquire another examples of its name being used. The ritual - we could ask Lydia to ask her dad for the explanation on how the ritual worked, and use that explanation as a focus. It's a broad fishing expedition, but it's one we need to take, if we are to get information, which we both want and actually need, if we are to bargain with Mab from a position of relative strength.

We have other inroads for the ritual, and only one inroad for Old Realm language. We could in principle get others later, with the language charms, I guess. That's a fair point. Switching to "what is the history of [Perfected Principle of Consumption]" might be worthwhile.

Remember, the main bargaining chip Mab has, the one she tried to tempt us with, is knowledge of our exaltation. Everything we find about it by ourselves before meeting her weakens her position, and strengthens Molly's. It also strengthens Molly's position in general by providing her context. Thus, Old Realm lore. First Age lore. Exalted lore. All those are valuable to us.

EDIT:

Actually... yeah, on further thought. We can get more language samples later, using our charms, like the one that forces everyone to speak Old Realm. The question is better used in a different way. One that solves a lot of issues:

[X]Plan Yog's questions v.1.4b
-[X] Actually concerning questions
--[X] [Old realm investigation] Question: "What is the history behind the name invoked here?" Focus: the photo of the ritual circle in which [Perfected Principle of Consumtpion] was invoked.
--[X] [Black Rider investigation follow-up] Question: "What information was the competition looking for by trying to make this purchase?". Focus: the recordings (such as the receipt we got for paying) from the police auction
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "For what reason did the man who once lived here harass Harry?". Focus: Detective's house
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "Who killed the man this tombstone is dedicated to?". Focus: Detective's tombstone
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "What was the actual murder scene of detective Green?" Focus: the dismemberment site
--[X] [Detective Green investigation] Question: "Who was ultimately responsible for the murder of a police detective murdered here?" Focus: detective Green's actual murder site
--[X] [Daedalus corruption investigation] Question: "Who was involved in the evidence recorded by this camera system being acquired by Deadealus in time to frame Dresden?" Focus: Surveillance camera system in the warehouse crime scene
--[X] [Thule Society investigation] Question: "What was the full chain of events that led the people who shot these bullets to know where and when to be to shoot them?" Focus: The bullets shot at us during initial meeting with Brother Divsimar.
--[X] [Thule Society investigation] Question: "Who attempted to shoot Gorfiel / us from this place?". Focus: The roof from which the shot was made
--[X] [Thule Society investigation] Question: "what was the chain of command involved in the shooting of this bullet at us/Gorfel outside Harry's apartment". Focus: Bullet souvenir
--[X] [Carpenter family security] Question: "What prophecies feature the people in this photo?" Focus: Carpenter family photo
--[X] [Training setup] Question: "What are the best, most comprehensive sources covering the subject if this book?"Focus: each of our school subject textbooks.
-[X] General curiosity questions
--[X] Question: "where might I find what the organization behind this website seeks?" Focus: SETI website
--[X] Question: "How did humans actually appear?" Focus: a copy of Darwin's "Origin of the Species"
--[X] Question: "Which of the organizations in this list are the most mired in the supernatural?" Focus: an online list of USA universities

Basically, the question should, I think, give us the history of Primordial War. It would certainly give us at least some context on what the exaltations and Primordials are. We can get Old Realm samples in other ways, using 1 dot charms that we would buy anyway, and it's a good way to solve immediate issues (upcoming talks with Mab) without spending AP. And if people are worried about safety of asking this question - our crown axiomatically can't hurt us. This is the safest way to ask.
 
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