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I disagree. We can't really believe in a guy who's literally named Mestipholes, has a card that wheneer his name is spoken he's summoned (speak of the devil) and is the literal mafia boss of the gang that Zane wants to leave. He's the kind of person who'll give you an inch, and then take a mile from you.
Ya guys realize that when he means "help with my conquest" he's going to ask, no, order us to kill people. There's a reason why you don't make deals with the devil, and this guy only exemplifies why.

Assuming we did take his offer, what's stopping him from taking the cards from us eventually? He said we'd get to leave the organization, with no strings attatched, but that doesn't mean we get to keep the godcards. And look at it this way, the definition of leaving can apply to many different things, and the first and foremost doublespeak I can think of with it is death. If he kills us somehow (maybe not by his own hands, but he has a whole organization) we'll have technically left the gang, because Zane would be dead.

Birdsie always gives benefits and cons to what we do, so we have to try and look past what we see at face value. From accepting his request, we see the immediate gain of no conflict (verbal or physical) and probably a good amount of money, right? And the downside we see to the other option is either giving up a card, or havin' soem kind of conflict with him. We can't be disillusioned by the face of the choices we see infront of us, and we have to do somethign that would benefit us while staying true to character.

Do you think Zane would trsut this guy, with all the wisdom his Uncle Iroh Shen spouts at him? Would getting back involved deeper into the gang help and wrok towards Zane's goal of leaving it and having a flower shop? What would becoming a pawn of Mephistoles mean for his future? To quote from a review of the original work that he came from,
Much like today's crude interpretations of the devil, Mephistopheles was a skeptic, a gambler, self- confident, witty, stubborn, smart, creative, tempting and of course, evil. There were very ironic things about him.
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One of the keywords of this is tempting. Don't you find his offer enticing? He gives a gift, one that speaks of freedom and perhaps other possible rewards, and all Zane has to do is aid him, right? It's a poisoned gift as I see it, because he's not only smart, he's confident. He holds all the chips on the table as he sees it, because there's a disparity in position. He, the leader of the gang we're trying to leave, who knows alot more about god cards than us, who has dozens (or more) of cronies at his disposal, and knows more about Zane than Zane knows about him. Meanwhile Zane's facing an authority figure who not only has superior knowledge, but is confident in his ability to manipulate, and is frugal in his ultimatums. The only way he (and by proxy, we) can get out of that situation is to reverse who has control over it.

Mephistoles won't be expecting resistance because again, he holds all the chips on the table as he sees it. He speaks of his interest in the cards, and applauds our win over the Zuchezzi brothers but has yet to express a word of concern for what Zane had to go through, or even a mention of several of his loyal followers being battered and possibly killed?

I'm just saying, look at it from some other angles. By offering resistance, we show him we can't be buillied around, that he does not control the situation, and that Zane will not be a part of his games. He may have others fooled, but not him. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and while 'helping' him may seem worthwhile, this guy is the kind of guy to show the honeycomb in one hand, and the whip in the other.

[X] Disagree
[X] Fight Mephistopheles - His portfolio doesn't seem particularly combat-oriented, and he's not a martial artist - you can tell with a glance. What are the odds he'll be able to outfight you if you use your cards to your advantage?
[X] Purchase Brawler's Repute

That's my piece on it anyway.
 
[] Disagree - And do what?

Get moar monies and waifus of course! There shall be no strings with the Devil to bite us back. I'm thinking it will be always be just another fight more with this one. Plus we'll be taking a lot of heat in the course of the Queens Conquest and not just with the Mafia either, we're looking at the police too.

In the meantime, what do we do with this knowledge? Play all the factions? Switch sides? Ignore and collect minions?

[] Hand over Phobos

Birdsie said:
[ ] Purchase Brawler's Repute [25 Ambrosia] - Restores Brawler of Midwood, and now you can use it thrice per Story Arc.
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Does all three charges also restore upon the end of the arc they are used on?
 
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MoonSerpent said:
Does all three charges also restore upon the end of the arc they are used on?
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Well yeah, they reset after the end of every arc or major event. Meeting Mephistoles is a major event, so I'm pretty sure with 3 of those (because they friggin double our odds, so essentially we can double every proceeding action) we can take him on and escape. I'm betting on two things, 1. he'll be impressed that we don't let him bully him, and 2. he lookin' mad weak (physically). Of course, he's a master manipulator so doing what he wants us to do is probably the best way to find ourselves stuck between a rock and a hardplace.

And besides, Phobos is an incredibly useful card for when we eventually make friends. I'm thinking of starting our own gang, except it won't be a gang. Essentially, we're going to do what Zane sort of suggested to his grandfather, and clean-up the streets using the cards. Of course, it's a long term thing.
 
[X] Disagree
[X] Fight Mephistopheles - His portfolio doesn't seem particularly combat-oriented, and he's not a martial artist - you can tell with a glance. What are the odds he'll be able to outfight you if you use your cards to your advantage?
[X] Purchase Brawler's Repute

You know what, ducks have never let me down before, I trust them.
 
You know fine! We're going up the ladder. Take the boss on, his shit, and his gang! Gravesend Flowers open for business here we come!

[X] Disagree
[X] Fight Mephistopheles - His portfolio doesn't seem particularly combat-oriented, and he's not a martial artist - you can tell with a glance. What are the odds he'll be able to outfight you if you use your cards to your advantage?
[X] Purchase Brawler's Repute
 
[X] Disagree
[X] Hand over Phobos - And tear off a tiny scrap of Card as you hand it to him, just in case

[X] Purchase Brawler's Repute

Phobos isn't worth much to us, while continuing to help Mephistopheles on his side is negative value. That said, Mephistopheles has had magic much longer than us. he could very well have substantially more than three abilities, and in some interpretations (I make no claim these interpretations are common or well known, but I have heard of them) Mephistopheles is a battle-maniac with lots o' combat power.
Our chance of victory will still be at least 50% and our chance of survival 100%, if our action is a singular attempt to 'defeat Mephistopheles', but it's not a prudent choice in-universe and really, what are we expecting to gain?
 
[X] Disagree
[X] Fight Mephistopheles - His portfolio doesn't seem particularly combat-oriented, and he's not a martial artist - you can tell with a glance. What are the odds he'll be able to outfight you if you use your cards to your advantage?
[X] Purchase Brawler's Repute
 
JOEbob said:
Phobos isn't worth much to us, while continuing to help Mephistopheles on his side is negative value. That said, Mephistopheles has had magic much longer than us. he could very well have substantially more than three abilities, and in some interpretations (I make no claim these interpretations are common or well known, but I have heard of them) Mephistopheles is a battle-maniac with lots o' combat power.
Our chance of victory will still be at least 50% and our chance of survival 100%, if our action is a singular attempt to 'defeat Mephistopheles', but it's not a prudent choice in-universe and really, what are we expecting to gain?
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While I do agree that helping Mephistopheles is on the negative side and that we don't know all his abilities, I wouldn't say that Phobos isn't worth much. Barring the ways of increasing it that we're not completely sure of, it's abilities are described to be some of the most powerful ones we've seen yet. For he price of one, we're granted three different (wait, I think it's four) pieces of armor/weaponry each with their own features that can exponentialy raise our combat ability.

A sword that's selectively permeable, which means we can damage practically anything, and it also radiates fear. Two indestructible items, a shield and armor, with the former being able to amplify sound and send supersonic waves in differnet places (while also imbuing fear into it) or making just a generally loud sound that will cause confusion and hysteria in the vicinity, while the latter can perfectley defend against medium-caliber sniper rifles and can cause hallucinations of a persons worst nightmare while boosting the users power the more fear they feel. A javelin...that when you throw it, attacks someone at the speed of light, and is virtually unavoidable while also transforming into literal lightning when thrown. It can arc and dodge around cover to strike at its intended target, and somehow is basically soundless.

Even if we weren't to use it for ourselves, it'd still be useful as either a bargaining chip, or just something we can use if we ever find someone trustworhty to help us 'clean up the streets' (as Uncle Shen really doesn't want Zane to try heroics) by giving them powers. And I don't think ripping the card discreetly will help us, because not only would that waste a card, but Mephistopheles himself would probably notice when we give it to him, when he doesn't recieve it's powers.
 
Let's try thinking about this narratively. Figure out the conceivable story beats Birdsie might be able to get out of each scenario.

Agree route - Narratively speaking, it's not going to be just one fight. The question is how. Is Mephistopheles going to screw us over? Are we going to end up on the news and unable to walk away anymore without a jail sentence? Will we do something that turns us into a fugitive for some reason?

Disagree Route - We get to watch as the demons claim more power, possibly meet whoever Mephistopheles gives Boreads or Phobos to, come to regret our actions and go back in to try and bring them down. Or we could do other stuff, deal with the mangler or something. Or some random nutcase bombs our flower shop or Shen's restaraunt and we end up drawn into whatever plot comes up that way.

Fight Mephistopheles(Win, estimated odds of success even with Brawler of Midwood 10%) - Assuming we're actually dealing with THE Mephistopheles in the flesh, as opposed to an illusion, or an actor he's feeding instructions to, and he's carrying his godcard on his person, we may be able to take over the Gravesend Demons.

Fight Mephistopheles(Lose, defined as him defeating us, or the masked man turning out to be an illusion or actor) - We end up hunted by the Gravesend Demons, possibly being forced to turn states evidence or something. Maybe we meet Henry Vanhorn the Detective Player Character option.
 
Nigerian Duck said:
Mhm, mhm, I think your calculations based on where you've gotten it from have a smalll area of margin. Is Worm worth reading? I've heard it's just superhero's but really dark.
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Another angle I didn't think of before that factored into my estimate is that Mephistopheles seems very relevant to Zane's plot from a narrative standpoint.

As for Worm,
The main character is a high school student who can control bugs. She sets out to become a superhero after getting shoved into a verryyyy filthy locker. Motive decay(After a case of mistaken Identity, she becomes a supervillain in an attempt to get information to turn them in. It doesn't last.), rationalizations(Then it's saving the girl she unwittingly helped abduct), hannibal lectures, and superhero politics ensue. Then the city becomes a post apocalyptic hellhole, and it keeps going downhill from there.

I can take it or leave it at this point, it has been some time since I read canon.
 
OctarineShrike said:
Another angle I didn't think of before that factored into my estimate is that Mephistopheles seems very relevant to Zane's plot from a narrative standpoint.
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Mmm, I think he'll have an effect on the narrative just due to the fact he;s the strongest and most knowledgeable person that we've met so far concerning the cards, but I like to believe that the story is driven by the posters/players, and as such, we can choose how we want to end up. Well, disregarding background rolls and things.

So....Worm is.....bad?
 
OctarineShrike said:
Fight Mephistopheles(Win, estimated odds of success even with Brawler of Midwood 10%)
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The way Brawler of Midwood works, we literally can't have odds lower than 50% of winning once we activate it; the problem case is if we Can't activate it, say because this is an illusory clone that pops before we do anything and then calls in a tactical airstrike or something- But you covered that in a seperate possibility, so the odds here are 50%+.
Nigerian Duck said:
While I do agree that helping Mephistopheles is on the negative side and that we don't know all his abilities, I wouldn't say that Phobos isn't worth much. Barring the ways of increasing it that we're not completely sure of, it's abilities are described to be some of the most powerful ones we've seen yet. For he price of one, we're granted three different (wait, I think it's four) pieces of armor/weaponry each with their own features that can exponentialy raise our combat ability.

A sword that's selectively permeable, which means we can damage practically anything, and it also radiates fear. Two indestructible items, a shield and armor, with the former being able to amplify sound and send supersonic waves in differnet places (while also imbuing fear into it) or making just a generally loud sound that will cause confusion and hysteria in the vicinity, while the latter can perfectley defend against medium-caliber sniper rifles and can cause hallucinations of a persons worst nightmare while boosting the users power the more fear they feel. A javelin...that when you throw it, attacks someone at the speed of light, and is virtually unavoidable while also transforming into literal lightning when thrown. It can arc and dodge around cover to strike at its intended target, and somehow is basically soundless.
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Phobos's abilities are powerful... for combat... with Ambrosia expended. I agree it's powerful, but I'm not sure I'd call it More powerful than the Boread 7-Ambrosia option, which not only produces a duplicate self, but extends to that duplicate any other Boread powers we gain, And allows the duplicate to remain extant for some time even if we swap cards. and it's certainly less Useful than the Boread clone, because it's only for combat.
Nigerian Duck said:
Even if we weren't to use it for ourselves, it'd still be useful as either a bargaining chip, or just something we can use if we ever find someone trustworhty to help us 'clean up the streets' (as Uncle Shen really doesn't want Zane to try heroics) by giving them powers. And I don't think ripping the card discreetly will help us, because not only would that waste a card, but Mephistopheles himself would probably notice when we give it to him, when he doesn't recieve it's powers.
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It might be useful as a bargaining chip, but for doing things for good?... I don't think the themes of the god of fear are suited.
as to ripping the card, it doesn't waste a card, as the card would still work. The trick is that only ripping in half destroys a card; torn scraps are still part of a functioning godcard. The utility of a tiny scrap is that it functions like touching the godcard. Say Mephistopholese gives it to someone we really don't want to have the power. we tap the scrap, and if the other guy doesn't have his piece on him, he loses power. we can keep holding the card and keep it away from him. and if not, he need never know; perhaps it got torn earlier, by the Zuchezzis. (though even if ripping a scrap did destroy the card, Mephistopheles wouldn't notice for some time. If he's the real one, he wouldn't touch it lest he lose his powers at which point we'd be able to beat him up. If he's fake, he wouldn't touch it lest he reveal his fakeness. either way, he has to reach another trusted lieutenant to find out if it's real.)
 
[X] Disagree
[X] Hand over Phobos - And tear off a tiny scrap of Card as you hand it to him, just in case

The thing about fighting Meph, is what happens afterwards? If we loose, obviously we also loose the godcards, and possibly our lives (this is a gamgleader afterall). But what about if we win? Do we take over the Gravesend, contrary to wanting to get out of the gang life? Allow the gang to fracture and turn on itself and possibly embroil those in their territory?
 
JOEbob said:
Phobos's abilities are powerful... for combat... with Ambrosia expended. I agree it's powerful, but I'm not sure I'd call it More powerful than the Boread 7-Ambrosia option, which not only produces a duplicate self, but extends to that duplicate any other Boread powers we gain, And allows the duplicate to remain extant for some time even if we swap cards. and it's certainly less Useful than the Boread clone, because it's only for combat.
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Phobos's abilities are powerful for combat, yes, because that's what pretty much most of the cards are meant for, not to mention thatwe only have access to those abilities despite our resonance being around 18%. I would say it's more powerful than Boread from a battle stand-point, but not a utility stand-point, considering all the uses for a clone of ourselves. The primary function for the cards is battle, so giving to Mephistopheles only adds to his power, because you know he has someone with a lot higher resonance than Zane's, and he's only coming after us because he wants us to fight for him, which Phobos is great for.

JOEbob said:
It might be useful as a bargaining chip, but for doing things for good?... I don't think the themes of the god of fear are suited.
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Themes don't matter as much as what you do. I doubt most people would expect a person who was a part of the gravesend gang to do good and clean-up the streets, but then again Zane is his own person.

JOEbob said:
as to ripping the card, it doesn't waste a card, as the card would still work. The trick is that only ripping in half destroys a card; torn scraps are still part of a functioning godcard. The utility of a tiny scrap is that it functions like touching the godcard. Say Mephistopholese gives it to someone we really don't want to have the power. we tap the scrap, and if the other guy doesn't have his piece on him, he loses power. we can keep holding the card and keep it away from him. and if not, he need never know; perhaps it got torn earlier, by the Zuchezzis. (though even if ripping a scrap did destroy the card, Mephistopheles wouldn't notice for some time. If he's the real one, he wouldn't touch it lest he lose his powers at which point we'd be able to beat him up. If he's fake, he wouldn't touch it lest he reveal his fakeness. either way, he has to reach another trusted lieutenant to find out if it's real.)
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So if it doesn't waste the acard and it still works, doesn't that give Mephisto or the perosn he wants the chance to use it? If the tiny piece functions as a card then so will the rest of it, so are we just going to end in a stalemate forever touching Phobos so we can prevent Mephisto's pawn from using it? I mean they could probably think something about the card being torn by the Zuchezzis, but I don't think that's likely. The brothers knew the worth of those cards and kept them safe, and not to mention that it's way mroe likely, the newbie who stole the cards from them, damaged them somehow, whether on purpose or not. And Mephisto might touch the card himself (assuming it's him) because as Zane said, he doesn't seem to be combat-oriented (at least physically) and I'm not sure how long it takes someone to download powers, but I assume it's fairly quick. What'd be stopping him (or a lieutenant of his that's there instead of him) from attacking us immediately with the superior combat ability of Phobos, and likely with some boosts to it due to higher resonance.
 
Sara said:
Fwiw, with brawler's repute, thank to it's three activations even if we fail with a doubled success roll we'll still survive by sacrificing second brawler activation for the story arc, won't we?
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Lose of life is only a possibility, we'd still be loosing the cards, and I'm not sure what other consequences there'd be.
 
Thozmp said:
Lose of life is only a possibility, we'd still be loosing the cards, and I'm not sure what other consequences there'd be.
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Well yeah, just clarifying the thing about death possibility. Personally part of the reason I looked forward to playing Zane is being able to get into fights for reasons with a modicum of a safety net in return for not having the greatest other skills, so fighting Meph here is up my alley and fits well with our character development.

Plus, the other options seem like they'd have consequences too. The first gets us involved in a gang with a group that somehow had two card carriers under it's thumb, and the second involves the consequence of giving up one of our cards.

A consequence that we actually have no guarantee we'll make Meph keep his word given our impressive social skills and the fact were dealing with a gang leader named after a demon known for being Machiavellian schemer in a world where mythology matters.

For instance, how do we know he's not just trying to get us to give him the card so we're at half strength for when he jumps us for the second card immediately afterward?
 
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The more I think about it the more the 'give him a card' option feels incredibly reckless. He's a career criminal who is obviously power hungry, desire both cards, and is in a profession where making examples of people who want to just 'retire' against your wishes on the eve of a gang war is standard practice. Unless we have some magical power that forbids people from breaking a contract with us, why would we ever think he would keep his word if after we give him one of the sources of our only leverage in the situation instead of just taking the other half of what he wants, especially if people here think he's so strong that it's not worth it to try and fight him with two cards?

Now i'm pretty convinced we should either just agree for the purposes of gathering a strength, figuring out something about his weaknesses, maybe getting some allies to protect ourselves later or disagree and fight him immediately. Giving the guy a card just makes us, in his eyes, less of a threat in a situation where seemingly the only reason he's willing to make a deal with us is presumably because of our strength.

Edit: The closest realistic equivalent if if this was a mundane Quest and we walked in with a AK and a carbine, and he pinky promised to just let us go if we only gave him one. Why would we trust that, especially since it lessens the perceived danger of going back on the deal for them?
 
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Nigerian Duck said:
Phobos's abilities are powerful for combat, yes, because that's what pretty much most of the cards are meant for
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...source?
Mephistopheles's known abilities aren't Combat-oriented. he could have combat ones, but he could also... not. we so far heard about 'granting wishes for a cost' and 'come when people call your name'. You can use both for combat but they're not inherently suited. Our other two Godcards, we got off people from a gang, using them for combat, so I'm not remotely surprised they're combat-suited.
Nigerian Duck said:
not to mention thatwe only have access to those abilities despite our resonance being around 18%
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The 4-items thing was explicitly a exceptionally-powerful First Unlock, the sheer product of possible Ambrosia expenditure.
Nigerian Duck said:
Themes don't matter as much as what you do. I doubt most people would expect a person who was a part of the gravesend gang to do good and clean-up the streets, but then again Zane is his own person.
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I more meant that Phobos will actively disincentivise anyone we pick for it being a good person. Like, it's possible to reconcile the two to a degree, but on the whole the better a person you are the worse I'd expect your Phobos compatibility to be.
Nigerian Duck said:
And Mephisto might touch the card himself (assuming it's him) because as Zane said, he doesn't seem to be combat-oriented (at least physically) and I'm not sure how long it takes someone to download powers, but I assume it's fairly quick. What'd be stopping him (or a lieutenant of his that's there instead of him) from attacking us immediately with the superior combat ability of Phobos, and likely with some boosts to it due to higher resonance.
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It would remove his existing powers, and give him One tick of Godcard Power. Godcards give you more power every... month iirc?... and more power for compatibility. Mephistopheles would find himself with about as much power as Zane, maybe twice or thrice as much at most, when he probably has several times more than that with both high Mephistopheles-Card compatibility and high duration of connection.
If it's a lieutenant with no Godcard, it's different, but then we're assuming that Mephistopheles has the power to grant his power to other people so they can pretend to be him, which doesn't seem so fitting.
Also, the Godcard Download is fast, but not, like, instant, and it's definitely startling- Zane almost dropped a card he was holding the first time.
Anyway, the reason to do this is that we would be able to make the card useless to him if we decided we wanted to. And if we have any allies, we wouldn't need to give up the Boreads either. just wait for any time that Mephistopheles's lieutenant isn't holding the godcard, which seems to be most of the time from what we've seen.
Sara said:
For instance, how do we know he's not just trying to get us to give him the card so we're at half strength for when he jumps us for the second card immediately afterward?
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...Well, the only way we lose power is if he touches the card (otherwise we're still attuned for now). If so, he'll need to swap back to his main card unless he's a secret lieutenant, giving us a few-seconds opening. Also, Phobos only gives us a boost when we spend the illusion charges which we don't have that many of I don't think, so we'd Probably switch to the Boreads after a few moments of combat if it came to that anyway.
Sara said:
Edit: The closest realistic equivalent if if this was a mundane Quest and we walked in with a AK and a carbine, and he pinky promised to just let us go if we only gave him one. Why would we trust that, especially since it lessens the perceived danger of going back on the deal for them?
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in this metaphor, he already has a pistol of his own, heavily customized, and probably months or years of experience using it, but it Might be customized to shoot fireworks.
Sara said:
Unless we have some magical power that forbids people from breaking a contract with us, why would we ever think he would keep his word if after we give him one of the sources of our only leverage in the situation instead of just taking the other half of what he wants, especially if people here think he's so strong that it's not worth it to try and fight him with two cards?
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He is probably the user of a Devil-themed Godcard (as evidenced through one ability which is not trivial to fake and existing rumors about his abilities suggesting a second); straight-up lying isn't really in theme for demons as a whole, and I'd think it would lower his compatibility. That said, we Don't have enough information to know what devil for real, so it Could be a devil known for breaking its deals eventually?
 
JOEbob said:
...Well, the only way we lose power is if he touches the card (otherwise we're still attuned for now). If so, he'll need to swap back to his main card unless he's a secret lieutenant, giving us a few-seconds opening. Also, Phobos only gives us a boost when we spend the illusion charges which we don't have that many of I don't think, so we'd Probably switch to the Boreads after a few moments of combat if it came to that anyway.
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So what your saying is it's trivial for him to just take the card and attune to it, then go back on his word to attack us after those seconds pass since the vote about giving it up doesn't mention using it as some weird distraction to surprise him? Which if we were, we might as well just vote to fight him and keep our Phobos powers given how useful even a few seconds worth of illusions can be. Or giving it to one of his subordinates who he has a great deal of, then go on to jump us.

JOEbob said:
in this metaphor, he already has a pistol of his own, heavily customized, and probably months or years of experience using it, but it Might be customized to shoot fireworks.
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Yes, this is even more of a reason not to give this person or his gang in general more firepower when doing so makes it easier from his perspective to come after his for the other gun.

JOEbob said:
He is probably the user of a Devil-themed Godcard (as evidenced through one ability which is not trivial to fake and existing rumors about his abilities suggesting a second); straight-up lying isn't really in theme for demons as a whole, and I'd think it would lower his compatibility. That said, we Don't have enough information to know what devil for real, so it Could be a devil known for breaking its deals eventually?
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Lying and deception in general is one of the things demons as a whole are extremely well known for, and the climax of his archetypical appearance hinges on the reveal that he had been lying about his deal the whole time. Mephistopheles literally translates too destroyer and liar.

If your hinging on his honesty because you think he's mythically linked to the concept of honesty, even the 'well atleast they never technically lie if you pay attention to exact wording' kind, you have things very, very backwards.
 
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