Basically this, yeah. It's very much intended that Exalted rapidly hit their personal power cap - a determined one can optimise themselves for their area of focus within a few years. This is working as intended, since the Primordial War required them to git gud, fast. Past that point, they broaden and shore up their power elsewhere, and their advantages become primarily infrastructural and experience-based (which are things that you can target and break if they belong to a hostile elder).
I remember when... I think it was @Revlid wrote this and posted it on the WW forums? And at some point I got into a dispute with him or @Imrix about the fact that by author's intent Leviathan was dead and the last sentences were more about "yeah there are legends that he's still around," whereas from my point of view this couldn't have been a more blatant He Totally Is Dead You Guys Wink Wink if it had tried.
I don't think I've ever actually argued this point, but basically... Leviathan was totally meant to be dead when I first wrote that. His role, in the grouping of four detailed First Age Lunars, was to demonstrate how even the dead Old Ones shaped and continued to influence Creation through widespread legends and cults, mutant tribes and bound fae, or taboo lands and shattered geography. That particular angle softened somewhat when it became clear that people really liked the idea of a Leviathan who was more than a racist Free Willy ruling over Shitty Atlantis, and found it frustrating that I'd killed him off just as soon as I'd developed him. The result is what you see in the link - four paragraphs of "Leviathan is dead, here is why that barely matters", followed by a line of obvious wink-wink, hey, maybe he doesn't need to be dead in your games.
If this were a West sourcebook, there's be references to his weapons caches and legends and so on organically seeded throughout the book, with a sidebar in the Storytelling section on Where Leviathan Might Be, with bullet-points like "Actually dead, you are his reincarnation", or "driven totally mad and guarding something in the abyssal depths of the ocean", or "building an underwater Outer Heaven", or "really guys, he's just dead".
Basically this, yeah. It's very much intended that Exalted rapidly hit their personal power cap - a determined one can optimise themselves for their area of focus within a few years. This is working as intended, since the Primordial War required them to git gud, fast. Past that point, they broaden and shore up their power elsewhere, and their advantages become primarily infrastructural and experience-based (which are things that you can target and break if they belong to a hostile elder).
This structure is mainly meant to counter the problem we see in canon Exalted where the old fucks are basically completely unassailable in terms of mechanical advantages unless the GM gives them a case of extreme mental retardation with a bonus lobotomy on top.
Given that elder characters exist as a set fact, if [INSERT_ELDER_HERE] is just as skilled as all members of your circle at their specialties and has a thousand years of built-up wealth, allies and infrastructure, he is still at least theoretically beatable by guerilla warfare, being outnumbered and so on. If [INSERT_ELDER_HERE] is throwing 60 dice to your 23 in every possible area and has charms that hit whole directions at once, you're completely fucked unless the GM fiats you a (highly unsatisfying) path to victory by plot device.
Therefore, there is a 'level cap' in place (your Exalt type's Enlightenment cap), and you get there pretty quickly in-play. Once you do, you can broaden your skillset and fill in gaps, but you can't just get infinitely stronger in your primary specialty forever.
[3] And I fully intend to have Keris branch out beyond An Teng and explore the southwest as a whole; @EarthScorpion and I spent the better part of an hour talking about it last night.
On a related note, what the hell is north of An-Teng?
I don't remember finding any reference to the region, but it appears to be the size of France and full of good quality land. Does anyone know, or have an answer from their game? While I expect it to be deep in the Realm's sphere of influence, the region should also be capable of supporting a million or so people at Creation's tech level.
While I expect it to be deep in the Realm's sphere of influence, the region should also be capable of supporting a million or so people at Creation's tech level.
Not necessarily. There's a Realm garrison in Great Forks, IIRC, but many places in the Scavenger Lands that are closer to the Blessed Isles don't have one. That area might well just be a mess of kingdoms - some ruled by Outcastes - that aren't profitable enough for the Realm to make into satrapies (unlike the highly lucrative An Teng, which has never really caused trouble and which just accepted Realm rulership).
On a related note, what the hell is north of An-Teng?
I don't remember finding any reference to the region, but it appears to be the size of France and full of good quality land. Does anyone know, or have an answer from their game? While I expect it to be deep in the Realm's sphere of influence, the region should also be capable of supporting a million or so people at Creation's tech level.
In Kerisgame, it's the area referred to in The History of the Scarlets with "By the time of his retirement, he had crushed the post-Shogunate empires of the South West, leaving jungles to grow in the ruins of their once-proud cities."
So until around 300 years ago, that area was controlled by a non-Realm Dragonblooded post-Shogunate culture which, like Lookshy, was centred around the remnants of a Shogunate institution and which rejected the Realm's claims to be the successor state to the Shogunate.
Then the Third Scarlet happened to them.
It was a long-fought, vicious war - but the Third Scarlet was a military genius and had the power of the Realm to throw behind systematically choking the South Western Shogunate. The sorcerers of the Heptagram were deployed en masse to call upon the jungle to choke their farms and fields, ruining farmland and starving out their fortifications. Hearthstone artillery shattered walls. The Shogun of the South West fell when three Gens turned traitor, bought by the Scarlet's blandishments, and seized the capital from within in a coup d'etat.
Now the lands of the Shogunate are split between the traitor Gens - now Cadet Houses of the Realm - and broken up by carefully administered Realm military districts. As the military districts are subjugated and the costs of their administration is recouped, they're sold off to the highest bidder as satrapies- at least that's the theory. In practice, there's a long-running and expensive insurgency lead by Dragonblooded remnants of the Gens who remained loyal. There's a lot of resentment towards the 'silk robers" - Realm patricians and local Realm sympathisers - even among the local mortal nobles and peasantry. Support for the Gens rebels has managed to embed itself in the culture, and they view themselves as an oppressed people even among the families who have done nicely from the conquest. Unlike most areas in Creation, the uniting post-Shogunate culture had developed nationalism so the usual Realm tactics to divide and conquer by favouring specific ethnic groups had less grounding. From the point of view of the Scarlet Legions, they've got used to running the military districts as their own satrapies and in at least some of them the legion commanders are being careful to maintain a certain low level of insurgency so they don't have to give up their profitable (and safe) holdings.
So, you know. Basically, mentally for me it's designed as a DB/Sidereal "setting" because everyone locally whether Realm or opposed to it agrees on the Immaculate Faith and Wyld-Hunting Celestials - which makes it rather less friendly to Celestials than the Scavenger Lands. There's a lot of well-funded Realm military and lots of DBs around, so it's a high difficulty setting for Celestials, requiring tact, care, subtlety, and working from within to sway the Gens to tolerating you if it'll help them get rid of the Realm, then persuading them to not just murder you and hand you in to the Realm to prove their "loyalty" to further their own cause.
So, you know. Basically, mentally for me it's designed as a DB/Sidereal "setting" because everyone locally whether Realm or opposed to it agrees on the Immaculate Faith and Wyld-Hunting Celestials - which makes it rather less friendly to Celestials than the Scavenger Lands. There's a lot of well-funded Realm military and lots of DBs around, so it's a high difficulty setting for Celestials, requiring tact, care, subtlety, and working from within to sway the Gens to tolerating you if it'll help them get rid of the Realm, then persuading them to not just murder you and hand you in to the Realm to prove their "loyalty" to further their own cause.
With local military commanders using the place as their private satrapies it's also a mixed blessing for the Realm. On the one hand it's a good place to stash troops that need some combat experience, like fresh graduates from its officer schools. On the other, should the Realm's presence in the region falter it's likely to see a resurgent rebellion resulting in an uneasily maintained peace whose main unifying trait is 'fuck the Realm.' And which with some care and attention may form a new Shogunate.
Then again, until the release of the Celestial Exalted that was unlikely to ever be a problem.
"Well, there are a few locations you could start," Sasi says, thoughtfully. She leads Keris up back to her study, and starts rummaging through maps and books, handing her a few. "Primers on genealogy, some of my notes on trade, maps of course...
She sits down, and slumps. Keris can see that she looks tired, and that she hasn't had much sleep - and Sasi isn't a morning person. "So, as for places to start out... well, most of the trade is directed through here. Steel Lotus and Dragon's Jaw are the primary trading ports of An Teng. This is where the most Dynasts are - and so where the most attention will be."
She leans over the map. "There... down here." She circles a town, maybe fifty miles south of Steel Lotus, up the river into the Middle Lands and close-ish to the Domain of the Serpents Who Walk As Men. "That's a Ledaal company town. They own it entirely. It's a trading port which takes silver from upriver and transfers it from the barges to the ships which lead out to sea."
She circles another point on the map. It's considerably north of An Teng - she has to use a different map for it. "And here's the An Zhal satrapy. It's not very prosperous - it basically exists to provide a port of call for ships travelling between the Blessed Isles and the South. It's run by the Merchant Navy," she looks at Keris and tones down the dialogue, "... that means it's under the control of the Imperial Household, specifically Princess Vanefa. That means money doesn't pass through it, because it runs only to cover operating costs and to fund her. I wouldn't recommend you attack it because the Imperial Legions man it, but if you base yourself nearby, you should be able to track vessels which dock there."
On a related note, what the hell is north of An-Teng?
I don't remember finding any reference to the region, but it appears to be the size of France and full of good quality land. Does anyone know, or have an answer from their game? While I expect it to be deep in the Realm's sphere of influence, the region should also be capable of supporting a million or so people at Creation's tech level.
Nothing in canon, it's one of the massive areas of land that's just blank, partially because the map got expanded, partially because White Wolf didn't let their writers add more material.
And also because, you know, the full map was never intended to be entirely filled from the very beginning, and you were intended to use that blank space to extrapolate on the regional context (such as the culture of An-Teng butting up against the Realm's edge) to add your own distinctive features to Creation so that your game didn't share much in common with Other Exalted games. Because as most of you are aware, 1e was pretty dead-set against having a singular, unified canon and instead more of a basic set of foundational premises to build from.
Because even the Alchemicals, as an entire exalt-type unto themselves, started out as an optional sideplot hook in an minor adventure supplement and existed to spell out "literally Anything could be out there if you put the work in." Before Infernals (and to a latter extent the Exigents) started to corner the market on such things, a Lot of people tried their hands at making their own distinctive fan-made Exalt-types for this reason. Which in a way also got eaten by the mechanical drive to endlessly rebuild the base 5 splats and make the combat system remotely sensible.
Which isn't to go saying that the 1e stance was universally superior for this reason (it turns out trying to couch a gameline in terms of "buy all our books, but don't USE all of them" is a rather contradictory set of marketing and design goals), but more that a lot of things would have been different I think if 2e had primarily been a set of toolbox books on how to actually Make these cultures, Exalts and various other sundry yourself building off from 1e's foundations, as opposed to rehash/rebooting what already was there but in less-engaging ways. Or the emerging Ex3 method of, "build something, but only within our Specifically dedicated sandboxes marked as such for that purpose. We'll explain everything else To you, and you'll Like it."
As for the artists drawing clothing wrong, Jen, you're an artist, you know how hard it is to get artists to move past their preconceptions. Don't fuckin' blame the writers because artists e.g. insist on drawing tall ships no matter how many Goddamn times we say draw a fucking trireme.
It's part of a larger discussion about sexism in the Realm that's maybe worth a read on its own merits, but I can't help but be amused at the idea of the artists sabotaging John's trireme obsession, to the point that so far the only boats I've seen in the corebook has been tall ships.
... Actually, come to think, *flicks through Savage Seas* yeah, trireme's actually had pretty niche representation even then. There's about two or three pieces of art given to them in the whole book.
I'm not really looking to raise this argument again, there's not much to discuss here and the topic is old ground. I consider this just an amusing note given the history.
From here.
It's part of a larger discussion about sexism in the Realm that's maybe worth a read on its own merits, but I can't help but be amused at the idea of the artists sabotaging John's trireme obsession, to the point that so far the only boats I've seen in the corebook has been tall ships.
... Actually, come to think, *flicks through Savage Seas* yeah, trireme's actually had pretty niche representation even then. There's about two or three pieces of art given to them in the whole book.
I'm not really looking to raise this argument again, there's not much to discuss here and the topic is old ground. I consider this just an amusing note given the history.
It is pretty amusing to be honest, but it's also the same reason why you have to send back illustrations with "did you even read the part where that character is black/asian/anything but white or generic animesque" time after time. Artists!
Clearly the art gets replaced with a picture of him having stepped through a door and had a bucket of whitewash fall on his head, while Harmonious Jade giggles in the background.
Nothing in canon, it's one of the massive areas of land that's just blank, partially because the map got expanded, partially because White Wolf didn't let their writers add more material.
And also because, you know, the full map was never intended to be entirely filled from the very beginning, and you were intended to use that blank space to extrapolate on the regional context (such as the culture of An-Teng butting up against the Realm's edge) to add your own distinctive features to Creation so that your game didn't share much in common with Other Exalted games. Because as most of you are aware, 1e was pretty dead-set against having a singular, unified canon and instead more of a basic set of foundational premises to build from.
As a reminder, the region I'm talking about is the region near heavenly gate 50. So first, I knew most of what you said already, and second your wrong about nothing being present. As previously mentioned, heavenly gate 50 is there. (Also, we can reasonably guess the local geography and climate.)
In Kerisgame, it's the area referred to in The History of the Scarlets with "By the time of his retirement, he had crushed the post-Shogunate empires of the South West, leaving jungles to grow in the ruins of their once-proud cities."
Not necessarily. There's a Realm garrison in Great Forks, IIRC, but many places in the Scavenger Lands that are closer to the Blessed Isles don't have one. That area might well just be a mess of kingdoms - some ruled by Outcastes - that aren't profitable enough for the Realm to make into satrapies (unlike the highly lucrative An Teng, which has never really caused trouble and which just accepted Realm rulership).
It's a dagger pointed at the Realm? How the hell could it not have been forced to reach accommodations with the Realm?
I get that it might not have been reduced to a satrapy, but – if they are still independent –I'd expect them to either be isolationist or Finlandized.
Okay, as an aid, I'll put what we know and what I expect is true of the region in question below.
Heavenly Gate 50 is centrally located. Heavenly gates often correspond to important cities (this is probably because Neighborhood relocation scheme is used to move gates closer to interesting and important locations).
This implies that a centrally located important city exists, which I'd guess to be the capital of the region. Such a capital location – as opposed to something more coastal – might indicates an attempt to escape the realm's influence, an isolationist regime, or an event of historical significance there.
While the climate might be Mediterranean, I actually suspect it's Humid Subtropical. While Humid Subtropical doesn't sound pleasant, it's actually the climate of both the American Southeast and Southern China. Thus, one of the most important questions is, is their primary agricultural product rice or cotton?
Next, given how flat most of the coastal plain is, I'd expect the region to be reasonably centralized (ever-shifting rivers don't make good borders).
That map is wrong / insufficiently low resolution. Blood and Salt gives plenty of Tengese jungle and arboreal cover, yet that map marks it as just green. So, no, that's not the devastating retort you think it is. Of course the entire area isn't jungle - but the Realm deliberately broke the old cities and let them get overgrown as a sign of their defeat. You know, the whole "delenda est" thing.
I gave that entire area a general Indochinese Peninsular climate (it gets drier and more Mediterranean on the other side of the mountains, as you move into the Lap). Hence, lots of jungle, hardwood forests and mangrove forests between the rice fields and the orchards.
... Actually, come to think, *flicks through Savage Seas* yeah, trireme's actually had pretty niche representation even then. There's about two or three pieces of art given to them in the whole book.
It is pretty amusing to be honest, but it's also the same reason why you have to send back illustrations with "did you even read the part where that character is black/asian/anything but white or generic animesque" time after time. Artists!
I don't really have any insight of my own into this process, but Wizards of the Coast's Magic creative team doesn't (outwardly) seem as if they have this problem. The set coming up is based of gothic horror, so it's very European focused, but the entire Khans of Tarkir block was Asian themed, and they had no problem getting their artists to draw Asians. Before that, they had an ancient greece themed set that was majority black/mediterranean. Are OPP's troubles in this area due to some issue with the management? Or maybe they're using cheaper artists who don't take the professionalism as seriously?
I don't really have any insight of my own into this process, but Wizards of the Coast's Magic creative team doesn't (outwardly) seem as if they have this problem. The set coming up is based of gothic horror, so it's very European focused, but the entire Khans of Tarkir block was Asian themed, and they had no problem getting their artists to draw Asians. Before that, they had an ancient greece themed set that was majority black/mediterranean. Are OPP's troubles in this area due to some issue with the management? Or maybe they're using cheaper artists who don't take the professionalism as seriously?
Wizards is way the hell richer and more organized than OPP can dream of being, is my understanding. It's like comparing a local restaurant with one or two locations to a nationwide chain. One just has so much more resources and ability to run properly than the other.
I don't really have any insight of my own into this process, but Wizards of the Coast's Magic creative team doesn't (outwardly) seem as if they have this problem. The set coming up is based of gothic horror, so it's very European focused, but the entire Khans of Tarkir block was Asian themed, and they had no problem getting their artists to draw Asians. Before that, they had an ancient greece themed set that was majority black/mediterranean. Are OPP's troubles in this area due to some issue with the management? Or maybe they're using cheaper artists who don't take the professionalism as seriously?
OPP has to do stuff like hire foreign artists with a poor grasp on English with whom part of the art notes get lost in translation because that's the only people cheap enough to afford. WotC can hire artists whose name people will actually recognize sometimes. Or less-than-trustworthy people who eventually all but bail out with the money.
OPP don't hire only those artists, but they just can't afford having MelUran illustrate the entire book.
(used to be OPP could hire recognizable famous-in-the-milieu artists as well, but that was the golden age or smt)
I mean, yeah, I get it that OPP has to do this on a budget but christ, that should mean that their artists aren't expected to fill the entire book with stuff like this, this, and this, not that they can't do (what seems like) basic shit like read the goddamn art notes.
It's money, but it's not just money. Exalted has historically been really bad at controlling its artists.
Remember the heart panties? And the Savant & Sorcerer cover?
Anyway, there's a quote from Rand Brittain on page 88 of the Something Awful Exalted thread that feels relevant here.
Speaking as somebody who's become involved in the creation of RPGs, I think people don't appreciate how terrified writers and developers are of those austere and majestic creatures, artists. Talking to artists always makes me nervous. What if they scorn our project as unworthy? What if they get offended and refuse to continue spinning our straw into gold? We just can't take that risk!
(I have no idea why artists are socially privileged above writers, but they are. Which is kind of saying something, actually. Well, no, I do know why it is: everybody here thinks they could write if they worked at it but only some of us can draw.)
So, yeah, there are social factors that tend to mean that artists often are not prevented from doing things they definitely want to do, and nerds are not exempted from them when they start making their own games.
I'd imagine that it helps that Wizards publishes Magic the Gathering. That game alone requires a metric ton of art per set, with multiple sets a year. They have to be better about dealing with artists than someone who needs 20 or so illustrations per book or something.
