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General Exalted Thread

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Irked said:
Based on the feedback of the past few pages, I've revised my Solar rewrite. The big change is to multiple attacks, which went from this:
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Definitely better, though the potential to reset initiative to base initiative after being crashed is rather odd. This is not, I think, the intention. Thankfully, it sounds like this area is one that received substantial clarification in the final draft.
 
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Anasurimbor said:
Definitely better, though the potential to reset initiative to base initiative after being crashed is rather odd. This is not, I think, the intention.
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I imagine not, but at some point one has to draw a line on the complexity - "You reset to base Initiative, unless you were higher than base but were modified to be lower than base, in which case you stay put," is certainly doable, but...

Thankfully, it sounds like this area is one that received substantial clarification in the final draft.
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Oh?
 
Apropos of nothing, if any of you feel as though you are really missing out on all that New Solar Flavor dripping from that 100 pages of straight game mechanics, I had a spare 15 minutes to whip up an Ex3 Charm-fluff generator.

Keep hitting the button to repopulate all 900 of them by yourself! It's almost like actually reading the backer pdf!
 
Insufferable horseshit at essence is gifted shounen-esque into the Solar exalted.
Between the Lawgivers, omnipotence is both arbitrarily and full-scale.
Capability using transcendence comes unequivocal for the Lawgiver.
The Solar exalted's expertise at Occult is objectively better in dimension.
The Lawgiver's omnipotence at Larceny is shounen-esque in greatness.
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I was thinking about picking up the PDF once it goes on sale, but I guess that won't be necessary now.
 
Dif said:
Ex3 Charm-fluff generator.
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Hey, the site is the same of Orteil.
*Realization.*
.... Why nobody told me that we have Orteil between us? I would have bothered him with 99% more Cookie Cliker jokes.

Also, here is my Charm FLuff:

The Solar's aptitude at War is arbitrarily in amplitude.
Readiness at Thrown is expressed undoubted to the Solars.
Amidst the Solars, proficiency is both certain and undivided.
Among the Solar exalted, talent is both infinite and irrefutable.
Between the Solar exalted, capability is both unchallenged and unmitigated.
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What i am getting, is that the Solars ave accidentally fused all of themselves together.
 
vicky_molokh said:
Thanks. Hmm. That makes me unsure of some things
  1. Do special defences in general get permission for usage against surprises? Only those with the word 'perfectly'? None? (It seems ambiguous given TED's precedent.)
  2. Ditto about being able to defend against Unblockable/Undodgeable? (I'm assuming no unless it's spelled out very explicitly in the Charm text, but maybe I'm wrong.)
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So, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. I think the answer to your second question is that social perfects can only defend against undodgeable and unblockable attacks if it specifies it can, but you may be asking about the Infernal only charms that render subsets of social attacks Unnaceptable Orders, which mean they automatically fail regardless of being undefendable (shorthand for unblockable/undodgeable). For your first question, I'm not sure how it works. My original understanding was that unexpected attacks were automatically undefendable, so perfects would still work, even if mundane defenses wouldn't, but Shyft's essays have said otherwise. On the other hand, Mocking Murmer Retort specifies you can't use its block the unblockable against an unexpected attack, so maybe the others can? I don't know. I've never actually played, that one game I found a few months ago lasted one session.
 
vicky_molokh said:
Ditto about being able to defend against Unblockable/Undodgeable? (I'm assuming no unless it's spelled out very explicitly in the Charm text, but maybe I'm wrong.)
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If an attack is Unblockable/Undodgeable, the only way to block/dodge it (socially or otherwise) is using a charm that allows you to block the unblockable/dodge the undodgeable.
 
So what do people think about the differences between sorcery and necromancy? Is sorcery just objectively better? Is necromancy mostly just sorcery with some body-horror, spooky ghosts, and cutting yourself? Have you homebrewed a solution?

I'm not sure what the numbers in the rulebook imply, but I'm inclined to house-rule that necromancy is objectively better at killing people than sorcery, but is less flexible and incapable of creating anything genuinely novel and new, and then adjusting any numbers or spells I find to insure this remains the case. I am very much a fan of keeping some clear distinctions between sorcery and necromancy.
 
vali said:
So what do people think about the differences between sorcery and necromancy? Is sorcery just objectively better? Is necromancy mostly just sorcery with some body-horror, spooky ghosts, and cutting yourself? Have you homebrewed a solution?

I'm not sure what the numbers in the rulebook imply, but I'm inclined to house-rule that necromancy is objectively better at killing people than sorcery, but is less flexible and incapable of creating anything genuinely novel and new, and then adjusting any numbers or spells I find to insure this remains the case. I am very much a fan of keeping some clear distinctions between sorcery and necromancy.
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Sorcery is better, I mean a lot of it is terrible (I think there is an entire spell without mechanics in one book), but at its most basic level you can crack rocks and get water, bless fields with fertility and summon utterly loyal slaves, turn your skin into brass armor and devastate battlefields with massive AoE spells and translate every language you can think of and repair stuff from the barest fragments.

Necromancy is just as you say; its supposed to be better at killing stuff and with working in the Underworld and with the dead. But sorcery has powerful killing effects as well, better I'd say. But it does its job at influencing and empowering all things deathly very well. So basically if you want something killed, sorcery is your best bet; demons and elementals are better at it than ghosts, its AoE and personal damage effects are better as well. While if you're courting ghosts or travel between the Underworld and Creation a lot, then Necromancy has you covered.
 
greensun said:
Necromancy is just as you say; its supposed to be better at killing stuff and with working in the Underworld and with the dead. But sorcery has powerful killing effects as well, better I'd say. But it does its job at influencing and empowering all things deathly very well.
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I think the point was that he looked at the mechanics we have for the two and disregarded them because it doesn't make a clear enough distinction between the abilities of the two, and he wants Necromancy to be better at something than sorcery and therefore worth taking instead of just being purely suboptimal. He was asking what we though of the idea of modifing Necromancy to clearly be better at actually killing things, of if it should have some other adjustment.
 
Its probably worth mentioning that before 2e took a hard-line stance to separate the thematics between the two types of spells, that several of what we'd now consider "necromancy," like Bone Lion and River of Blood, were once straight-up sorcery effects. Because the general definition of "Sorcery" was classically always intended to be "summon the Ten Plagues of Egypt" style old-school Biblical miracles before it had any direct roots tying it into the yozis, demons or reality-rewriting. By contrast, all existing Necromancy spells are "evil/for killing" only because they have only been presented in-context with Abyssals and the Deathlords, so we have never seen what "First Age" necromancy would be inclusive of.

So the question of what Necromancy should entail, as either a parallel or subset of this, should probably be asking "what does an Underworld miracle look like?" Not killing, not dead/death-essence, not stasis, but what would be the kind of thing which the Underworld would consider a "Biblical miracle" and would be equally useful there as when transplanted into a spell usable in Creation. That's where a lot of attempts to codify Necromancy fall down, because each spell hews so sharply to one side or the other (like spells which only target ghosts and nothing but ghosts), leaving Sorcery as being much more flexible overall for what would naturally be the same effects.
 
Underworld miracles. So, things like Orpheus's journey to the Underworld. Maybe a spell that incapacitates everyone with grief, but is broken if you stop playing your musical instrument?

I'll have to check up some other underworld mythologies and see what ideas I can mine.
 
So, anyway. Dread Panoply of the Silent Wind is... not a great Charm. It's not a great Charm for Adorjan and it's not great outright. You can consider this to be optional stealth errata for it, as well as fully functional Charm in its own right.

(I'm actually inclined to replace Glorious Solar Sabre and other such effects with something similar. I'd prefer to see a Solar swordmaster picking up a twig and cutting a man's head off with it like it's a sword because he has internalised the tao of dao, than forming a magic glowing sword made of lens flare.)

Tornado's Castaway Toys
Cost: 5m, 1 Compassion Channel; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: One scene
Prerequisites: Freedom Lets Go

To Adorjan, weapons are just like feelings; things to be discarded at a whim. While this Charm is active, the warlock may reflexively ready mundane or improvised close combat weapons with a -0 DV penalty. This includes scavenging improvised weapons from the environment or picking up a dropped weapon. When the Infernal's anima is at the 8-10 mote level or higher, she may even form silent gale-blades from the burning light of her soul, which may have the form of any mundane close combat weapon.

In addition, the Infernal treats all mundane close combat weapons as if they were their closest equivalent single or paired basic 1, 2 or 3-dot close-range white jade artifact weapon, as judged by the Storyteller. Improvised weapons benefit from this effect too. The murderous winds of Adorjan envelop the object, so a broom impales a man like a dire lance and chopsticks pierce like short daiklaives. Targets killed by an enhanced weapon are automatically targetted by a free activation of Kamilla's Sacred Inhalation. However, enhanced weapons only last for a single action - when the Infernal's DV next refreshes, they dissipate into wind and are destroyed. If the Infernal killed at least one enemy with the weapon and has an overdrive pool, she gains 2 overdrive motes when this occurs. She may only gain this benefit once per refresh of her DV.

If the Infernal uses this Charm to enhance mundane weapons stored within her Dread Panoply of the Silent Wind, the weapon is not destroyed, but returns to Elsewhere and may not be re-summoned until her DV refreshes yet again.

With a second purchase, this charm may enhance pre-existing ranged weapons or thrown objects. The warlock does not gain the capacity to create mundane ranged weapons from her anima. The maximum range of any enhanced weapon is the Infernal's Dash speed, the projectile disintegrating beyond that distance into red and white ribbons. In the case of weapons like bows or firewands, the weapon as well as the projectile is destroyed when the Infernal's DV refreshes.
 
Dif said:
Its probably worth mentioning that before 2e took a hard-line stance to separate the thematics between the two types of spells, that several of what we'd now consider "necromancy," like Bone Lion and River of Blood, were once straight-up sorcery effects. Because the general definition of "Sorcery" was classically always intended to be "summon the Ten Plagues of Egypt" style old-school Biblical miracles before it had any direct roots tying it into the yozis, demons or reality-rewriting. By contrast, all existing Necromancy spells are "evil/for killing" only because they have only been presented in-context with Abyssals and the Deathlords, so we have never seen what "First Age" necromancy would be inclusive of.

So the question of what Necromancy should entail, as either a parallel or subset of this, should probably be asking "what does an Underworld miracle look like?" Not killing, not dead/death-essence, not stasis, but what would be the kind of thing which the Underworld would consider a "Biblical miracle" and would be equally useful there as when transplanted into a spell usable in Creation. That's where a lot of attempts to codify Necromancy fall down, because each spell hews so sharply to one side or the other (like spells which only target ghosts and nothing but ghosts), leaving Sorcery as being much more flexible overall for what would naturally be the same effects.
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An underworld miracle would be something that brings relief to a ghostly ancestor, an ancient score being settled, the wicked being punished, and for the dead to share their wisdom with the living.


!!! Idea.

Iron Circle Necromancy Spell.

Cascading Unheard Voices
Cost: 10 motes (commited)
Target: Sinner


From the Time Not when the Primordials conquered the Universe and made their Throne-World Creation, to the fracturing Scarlet Empire today, the entire world has been engaging in a cycle of violence, leaving billions of voices silenced. The Avenger who casts this spell whispers his target's name, his voice both echoing for miles and unheard by those that do not care whoever the target it. Those ghosts who hear it are drawn to her, seeking her out (This is not a Compulsion). They share their memories of the target with the Avenger, who stores them all in a mark on his hand. The next time the Avenger touches his target, all the memories he has collected rush into the sinner's head, who experiences them all firsthand. Thereafter, the Avenger may use the memories of the ghosts that shared theirs with a similar target E.g. a slave's memories may be shared with any slavers, any of their bodyguards, and any owners.
 
beowolf said:
So, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. I think the answer to your second question is that social perfects can only defend against undodgeable and unblockable attacks if it specifies it can, but you may be asking about the Infernal only charms that render subsets of social attacks Unnaceptable Orders, which mean they automatically fail regardless of being undefendable (shorthand for unblockable/undodgeable). For your first question, I'm not sure how it works. My original understanding was that unexpected attacks were automatically undefendable, so perfects would still work, even if mundane defenses wouldn't, but Shyft's essays have said otherwise. On the other hand, Mocking Murmer Retort specifies you can't use its block the unblockable against an unexpected attack, so maybe the others can? I don't know. I've never actually played, that one game I found a few months ago lasted one session.
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Well, unblockable-because-it's-unexpected and unblockable due to a direct enhancement are apparently two different categories for this purpose. This is important if one has a surprise-negator but not an unblockable-blocker/undodgeable-dodger but not vice versa.
Tricks like turning those into Unacceptable Orders are indeed a different approach altogether; thanks for pointing that out, I didn't think about it.

EarthScorpion said:
So, anyway. Dread Panoply of the Silent Wind is... not a great Charm. It's not a great Charm for Adorjan and it's not great outright. You can consider this to be optional stealth errata for it, as well as fully functional Charm in its own right.

(I'm actually inclined to replace Glorious Solar Sabre and other such effects with something similar. I'd prefer to see a Solar swordmaster picking up a twig and cutting a man's head off with it like it's a sword because he has internalised the tao of dao, than forming a magic glowing sword made of lens flare.)

Tornado's Castaway Toys
Cost: 5m, 1 Compassion Channel; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: One scene
Prerequisites: Freedom Lets Go

To Adorjan, weapons are just like feelings; things to be discarded at a whim. While this Charm is active, the warlock may reflexively ready mundane or improvised close combat weapons with a -0 DV penalty. This includes scavenging improvised weapons from the environment or picking up a dropped weapon. When the Infernal's anima is at the 8-10 mote level or higher, she may even form silent gale-blades from the burning light of her soul, which may have the form of any mundane close combat weapon.

In addition, the Infernal treats all mundane close combat weapons as if they were their closest equivalent single or paired basic 1, 2 or 3-dot close-range white jade artifact weapon, as judged by the Storyteller. Improvised weapons benefit from this effect too. The murderous winds of Adorjan envelop the object, so a broom impales a man like a dire lance and chopsticks pierce like short daiklaives. Targets killed by an enhanced weapon are automatically targetted by a free activation of Kamilla's Sacred Inhalation. However, enhanced weapons only last for a single action - when the Infernal's DV next refreshes, they dissipate into wind and are destroyed. If the Infernal killed at least one enemy with the weapon and has an overdrive pool, she gains 2 overdrive motes when this occurs. She may only gain this benefit once per refresh of her DV.

If the Infernal uses this Charm to enhance mundane weapons stored within her Dread Panoply of the Silent Wind, the weapon is not destroyed, but returns to Elsewhere and may not be re-summoned until her DV refreshes yet again.

With a second purchase, this charm may enhance pre-existing ranged weapons or thrown objects. The warlock does not gain the capacity to create mundane ranged weapons from her anima. The maximum range of any enhanced weapon is the Infernal's Dash speed, the projectile disintegrating beyond that distance into red and white ribbons. In the case of weapons like bows or firewands, the weapon as well as the projectile is destroyed when the Infernal's DV refreshes.
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The Charm overall is cool, and makes improvised weapons cool. But I have to ask about the repurchase: it enhanced ranged weapons (including thrown) but . . . I thought Adorjan absolutely hates the idea of fighting with a ranged weapon of any sort? Or am I confusing her with somebody else?

Also, about Glorious Solar Sabre:
I'm totally in favour of adding a Charm that allows Solars to pull off a Musashi with a paddle instead of a katana. But why replace? Why remove a Charm that is part of such an iconic Solar capability (summoning stuff made from hardened light so that Solars are never found lacking their stuff)? That's a theme that is very solidly a part of the Solar charmset.
 
vicky_molokh said:
The Charm overall is cool, and makes improvised weapons cool. But I have to ask about the repurchase: it enhanced ranged weapons (including thrown) but . . . I thought Adorjan absolutely hates the idea of fighting with a ranged weapon of any sort? Or am I confusing her with somebody else?
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Wrong. Adorjan isn't interested in fighting at range (she doesn't hate it, she just finds it boring). There's an important difference there. If you skid into a group of soldiers, grab a gun from one of them, empty the clip into six chests, throw it in the face of a seventh, grab his shotgun, blast another three people in the face with both barrels and then fling it through the gut of its previous owner, Adorjan will <3 <3 <3 your approach and think you're hilarious. She's fine with Ranged weapons as long as you use them in fairly close quarters - it's sniping and doing things from a distance that she finds boring. Hence why ES has ruled in the Charm that the definition of "close range" for Adorjan is "anyone I can reach in a single Dash action and give murderhugs to".
vicky_molokh said:
Also, about Glorious Solar Sabre:
I'm totally in favour of adding a Charm that allows Solars to pull off a Musashi with a paddle instead of a katana. But why replace? Why remove a Charm that is part of such an iconic Solar capability (summoning stuff made from hardened light so that Solars are never found lacking their stuff)? That's a theme that is very solidly a part of the Solar charmset.
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Well, bluntly, because Solars are human heroes and thus use tools. And thus need tools. "I can use anything as 'tool'" is fine, but I'd prefer to see that as a prerequisite - and a less expensive preresquisite - to "I can make a 'tool' out of nothing but glowing bullshit". This is fundamentally the exact same design principle that makes me go "Solars shouldn't be able to just ignore the need for craft tools completely. They might be able to use a forge and hammer as if they were more advanced tools than they are, but they still benefit immensely from having better ones (that they can apply the same boosts to to get exceptional stuff), and are therefore incentivised to go get the Best Tools Ever."

Or to put it another way, it should be easier to take something already there and make it V. Good than to make something V. Good out of nothing whatsoever. And the better your starting tools, the better you can make them when you use enhancement. That way, the people who actually went out and found advanced tools and spent the effort to obtain and maintain them aren't ripped off for doing so by the dude who sat in a cave and made Shogunate-level crafting equipment or glorious five-dot daiklaves out of nothing but sunlight and ego.
 
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Aleph said:
It's worth looking at Sidereals 1e for examples of this (and also if you're interested in where even more of OTS's fluff came from), because in a lot of ways 1e Sidereals was where the mechanical rot set in - invincible builds began with First Edition Bluesids; a topic that @Jon Chung could go into more detail on. It's still a good book with some beautiful fluff in it, though
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So I was looking through my bookmarks and I found this claim. I'm honestly curious what Aleph is talking about here. I know in 2e Sidereals have Defense of Shining Joy, a powerful combat charm on its own, which both got a nerf and a buff in 2.5 with Heart Brightening Presentation Style and the Sid Compassion Charm whose name I can't remember.

But I have absolutely no context on 1e other than the fact that Persistent Defenses and lower damage made combat take forever.

So can someone please enlighten me on how Bluesids had invincible builds?
 
@Havocfett in your rewrite of Raksha are they still weak to iron? I know you gave out about it, as in its too Euro-Fey for a something called Raksha, But I'm just checking.
 
Walker of the Yellow Path said:
So I was looking through my bookmarks and I found this claim. I'm honestly curious what Aleph is talking about here. I know in 2e Sidereals have Defense of Shining Joy, a powerful combat charm on its own, which both got a nerf and a buff in 2.5 with Heart Brightening Presentation Style and the Sid Compassion Charm whose name I can't remember.

But I have absolutely no context on 1e other than the fact that Persistent Defenses and lower damage made combat take forever.

So can someone please enlighten me on how Bluesids had invincible builds?
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Basically, they were the prototypical Twilight Essence Reactors. Either you missed them and they gained motes, or you forced them to activate a Charm and only gain fewer motes.
 
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