Just don't use mortals. That Tiger Warrior Training trains DBs just as fast as it does random mooks, so why are you training random mooks?
What. That's so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin. You might as well say that since Tiger Warrior Training trains Solars just as fast as DBs, why are you training DBs random mooks?

You don't have a choice between ten thousand Tiger Warriors and ten thousand Dragon-Blooded. You have a hundred Dragon-Blooded. You can either bring along ten thousand Tiger Warriors or leave them behind.

Despite their comparative fragility, Tiger Warriors are occasionally useful. They are also not infinitely replaceable, so you'd expect various defensive magics and techniques to be developed so they are not effortlessly destroyed.
 
What. That's so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin. You might as well say that since Tiger Warrior Training trains Solars just as fast as DBs, why are you training DBs random mooks?

You don't have a choice between ten thousand Tiger Warriors and ten thousand Dragon-Blooded. You have a hundred Dragon-Blooded. You can either bring along ten thousand Tiger Warriors or leave them behind.

Despite their comparative fragility, Tiger Warriors are occasionally useful. They are also not infinitely replaceable, so you'd expect various defensive magics and techniques to be developed so they are not effortlessly destroyed.

Mate, the context here is the Primordial War. You have armies of Dragon-Blooded.

Trying to argue that you need to have some trivial method of defending armies of plain mortals from Primordial War conditions based on their necessity in the Primordial War is a crazy argument. You just don't take them in those conditions. Your rank and file soldiers are Exalts.
 
Last edited:
What. That's so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin. You might as well say that since Tiger Warrior Training trains Solars just as fast as DBs, why are you training DBs random mooks?

You don't have a choice between ten thousand Tiger Warriors and ten thousand Dragon-Blooded. You have a hundred Dragon-Blooded. You can either bring along ten thousand Tiger Warriors or leave them behind.

Despite their comparative fragility, Tiger Warriors are occasionally useful. They are also not infinitely replaceable, so you'd expect various defensive magics and techniques to be developed so they are not effortlessly destroyed.
Besides what Chung said, the Exalted Host, amusingly, did not, in fact, have millions of Solar Exalted in the Primordial War that needed training. They had 300, that were likely already ludicrously trained to the point that Tiger Warrior (that caps at 4 dots) is kind of worthless to them.
 
I'm also pretty sure the system was never actually intended to model anything during the primordial war. Hell, before the three spheres cataclysm in setting physics didn't work the same and the world was fundamentally changed.

Not to mention that most primordials, as they're described, could totally kill armies of DBs. Going by mechanics they'd have action long perfects, thousand mote pools, and mote-less, giant area, perfect-or-die attacks. When a thousand DBs all form up into a regiment and try to attack isidoros he just steps on them until they run out of motes to power Wrath Directong Gesture and they all die. That's not even counting other primordial backup and his soul hierarchy.

The only way it even makes sense non-mechanically is if the war was fought on a vast front, and using quite a bit of guerrilla tactics. At which point I think the scale can definitely include mortals, there were lots of DBs during the war but there wasn't 800 million of them or anything.

No to mention that exalted are force multipliers on their own. If you've got an attacking primordial-loyalist civilization of horned chimera-men and they're heading towards one of your cities, giving that city 50 DBs a Solar and a Lunar is going to give the native mortals the boost they need to fend off that army. And it leaves you free to send your other Solars to fight other wars, and with enough to spare to send a circle of your most elite into the den of the great beast who knows the secret to killing the horrifying winged 3CD Ojitte.
 
Any attempt to model the Primordial War as army against army is doomed to fail, as it was never about that and I don't think the game has ever posited it was resolved in such a way. It was an apocalyptic battle across Creation, and armies have no footing to stand at that level. They are a backdrop and scenery as literally-invincible titans and heroes played cat-and-mouse games with eachother using deus ex machinas of cosmic power.

If you look at the sources which Exalted draws heavily from when justifying it, you see battles are decided by individual actors playing mind-games, navigating between open trickery and impossible shock-and-awe weapons like the Narayanastra:
This astra ("weapon" in Sanskrit) in turn fires a powerful tirade of millions of deadly missiles simultaneously. The intensity of the shower rises with increase in resistance. The only way of defense towards this missile, is to show total submission before the missiles hit. This in turn will cause this weapon to stop and spare the target.
Ashwathama, a Kuru warrior-hero in the epic Mahabharata unleashes this weapon on the Pandava forces. Lord Krishna, who is an Avatar of Vishnu tells the Pandavas and their warriors to drop their weapons and lie down on the ground, so that they all surrender completely to the power of the weapon. It was also said that this weapon can be used only once in a war and if one tries to use it twice, then it would devour the user's own army.
[...]
When targeted, the Pandava hero Bhima refuses to surrender, thinking it an act of cowardice, and attacks the downpour of fiery arrows. The Narayana weapon concentrates its shower on him, and he gets steadily exhausted. However, he was not killed as Krishna and his brothers restrain him at the right time.

Or the Vijaya:
The Sanskrit name 'Vijaya' means 'victory' and this bow is said to give sure victory to the possessor. The string of Vijaya Dhanush cannot be broken by any kind of astra (weapon) or divya astra (divine weapon), nor by anyone and it is so heavy that a normal person in any yuga cannot not lift it. Every time an arrow is released from this bow, it creates a terrible twang, which is said to be loud as thunder, causing terrible fear in enemies and produces flashes of light as brilliant as lightning, which blinds the enemy. Every time an arrow is aimed, the energy of the arrow is amplified by multiple times as Vijaya Dhanush is charged with sacred mantras. Vijaya Dhanush is unparalleled and except Lord Parasurama, Karna or an equally or more powerful warrior, nobody can even lift it. No weapon, not even the mighty Pashupatastra, can harm a warrior who has Vijaya Dhanush in his hand, as the name Vijaya implies victory to the wielder.
[...]
Lord Shiva instructed Indra to give the bow to Parasurama for the task of killing all the kshatriyas in the world. With this bow, Parasurama killed all kshatriyas in the world 21 times.
[...]
Parasurama gave Vijaya to his student Karna, who already had terrific skill, making him virtually invincible. Lord Krishna devised a plan to kill Karna and asked Arjuna to kill Karna when he was weaponless trying to lift his sunken chariot wheel, even though it was highly prohibited or against the rules of engagements in war, to kill an unarmed warrior.

Or the Pashupatastra:
Would destroy target completely, irrespective of target's nature. When released, the weapon summons several monsters and a huge spirit which personifies the weapon. Each time the weapon is summoned, its head is never the same. This weapon had to be obtained from Shiva directly. It is Infallible and without any parallel which cannot be stopped by anyone except by Lord Shiva.
[...]
In the Mahabharata Arjuna obtained this weapon from Lord Shiva but did not use it because this weapon would destroy the entire world, if used against a mortal enemy.

If the idea of such a broad, sweeping conflict playing out in such a wishy-washy, narratively vague and unsatisfying manner doesn't agree with you, that is part of the point. It was a war beyond the scale of "game" and couched in such a way that every story resulting from its aftermath becomes inherently more interesting, because having left it behind we can see and measure forces of arms and stakes which aren't divided into "all" or "nothing."
 
Well, I keep working on something based on GURPS Mass Combat, but that's still kind of iffy.
I find some of the premises of GMC to be not easily compatible with the ST-derived game engine that Exalted uses. E.g. while Magnitude and Dice Pool would in some ways be interchangeable like they are in Exalted (to a greater extent, in fact), under GMC resolution of casualties/etc. based on a Strategy roll, it is suddenly much, much more useful to invest into a War Excellency, while many other War Charms might end up either irrelevant, or needing significant rework.

I'm guessing you solved/changed/fixed significant parts of the incompatibilities. Could you go into more detail of how the reworked system works so far?
 
... Most of the War Charms are going to be either irrelevant or need significant rework in any functional Mass Combat rewrite, vicky. That's kind of an inescapable consequence of how the current Mass Combat system, which the existing War charmtech is design to work with, is FUBAR.
 
... Most of the War Charms are going to be either irrelevant or need significant rework in any functional Mass Combat rewrite, vicky. That's kind of an inescapable consequence of how the current Mass Combat system, which the existing War charmtech is design to work with, is FUBAR.
Hmmm. I suppose I should instead look at it in the context of which ones can be easily adapted to different MC systems.

Rout-Stemming Gesture Heroism-Encouraging Presence:
Generally good in any system that has morale checks as separate from troop quality; but GMC mostly abstracts morale as part of troop quality.

Commanding the Ideal Celestial Army:
Very fine-grain-scaled. Would probably be a C3I bonus if using a GMC-derived system.

Mob-Dispersing Rebuke:
I suppose it would case Casualties in the form of deserters in GMC-d sys, which is a bit bland.

Fury-Inciting Presence:
Probably works the same, 'producing' green followers.

General of the All-Seeing Sun:
Should probably provide C3I benefits and scouting-phase benefits.

Tiger Warrior Training Technique and Legendary Warrior Curriculum:
probably unchanged mostly.

Ideal Battle Knowledge Prana:
Again, probably a C3I bonus and/or a bland generic strategy roll bonus (in effect if not in fluff).
 
Any attempt to model the Primordial War as army against army is doomed to fail, as it was never about that and I don't think the game has ever posited it was resolved in such a way. It was an apocalyptic battle across Creation, and armies have no footing to stand at that level. They are a backdrop and scenery as literally-invincible titans and heroes played cat-and-mouse games with eachother using deus ex machinas of cosmic power.

I half-agree and half-disagree with this.

I agree that trying to model the Primordial War with game mechanics is a bad idea.

But I don't think you can write off armies like this.

There are five castes, and only one of them is the "warrior" caste, and even then one of their legitimate focuses is War in the sense of, well, armies. Members of the other five castes need not be combatants. This being Exalted, many of them are, but one of the things I appreciate about Exalted is the way it legitimizes the idea of a Performance hero or even a Bureaucracy hero.

Sure, some of the noncombatant Primordial War Exalts were part of an Exalt-focused logistical train that focused on making sure each Dawn had a fancy daiklave - but I think it's depressing and a little too reductionist to see that as the only possible contribution. I think regular, human armies were valuable in the Primordial War. I think human societies were valuable in the Primordial War. If the Primordials are in part themes and ideas, then a Zenith who convinces humans to reject those ideas should be contributing to the fight directly. And so on.

I want the idea of a brilliant Solar general who led her army (including mortals) through a hidden pass to stage a surprise attack on a Primordial to exist, in Exalted.

To the degree that this is inconsistent with some elements some folks consider canon, I think those elements should be amended - because otherwise the UCS's division of castes doesn't make tons of sense, but that division of castes is what makes the game so appealing to me.
 
I'm guessing you solved/changed/fixed significant parts of the incompatibilities. Could you go into more detail of how the reworked system works so far?
I'm still at the point where I've proven that the idea can work, but I'm still eyeballing and converting things on a case-by-case basis and then converting back, which is a horrible mess of bookkeeping, rather than coming up with a formal procedure, because I haven't even come up with a decent conversion between probability tables yet. The only hard-and-fast rule I use is that Exalted always get the Hero and Super-Soldier traits, even if they're just an E2 Lost Egg.

C3I boosting charmtech actually makes a lot of sense, now that I think about it, because it makes it really easy to obtain C3I superiority if your foes don't have it, and can shrink the OODA loop of the force.
 
Question for a prospective quest/fanfic.

Would a Celestial Exaltation or ten break the DC Universe's setting provided it's bestowed to one of the characters with no powers?

By instance: Night Caste Catwoman; Twillight Lex Luthor, Eclipse Dick Grayson and so on. Or better yet, a random bystander that decides to be a hero.
 
Last edited:
Would using Malfean environmental charms in Gotham count as urban renewal? :)

(And, of course: What does Chaos-Repelling Pattern do to the locals and their equipment?)
 
Question for a prospective quest/fanfic.

Would a Celestial Exaltation or ten break the DC Universe's setting provided it's bestowed to one of the characters with no powers?

By instance: Night Caste Catwoman; Twillight Lex Luthor, Eclipse Dick Grayson and so on. Or better yet, a random bystander that decides to be an hero.
Catwoman, Lex Luthor and Nightwing are all already Solar-level anyway :V
 
Would using Malfean environmental charms in Gotham count as urban renewal? :)
Probably. UMI might also be able to make the joker sane, as well. Unless that would count as an unacceptable mental order. Which given his immortality, is probably true.

Hmm. What would Perfect Attacks do to superman, I wonder.
 
Aren't there some attacks which ignore or bypass soak?

Yeah.

Fire and Stones Strike one that pops to mind immediately for Solars, but it gets costly.


Anyways, the question of "Would a Solar break DC?" depends on, like all other things involving comics, "what version are you using?" Some, like the DCAU or the Young Justice cartoon, are lower power and more internally consistent than the mainstream comics would be more readily affected by an Exalt showing up.

Others, like the current mainstream comics or previous eras like the Silver Age, would be drastically less affected by a Solar due to the crazier power levels and crazier capabilities of so called "peak humans."
 
Oh yeah. So, continuing the apparent philosophical debate that Keris's souls are expressing by, um, making breeds of demon horse...

...

... okay, no, I can't skip over this one. Keris, why are your souls having some sort of obscure philosophical debate by making different kinds of demon horse? Are they all going to do this? Are we going to get night mares from Calesco when she shows up? Why horses? I get that "holding a weird debate by making breeds of demon" is just a generally Third Circle sort of thing to do that proves you're getting the hang of being baby Unquestionable very fast, but why have this argument by making different kinds of steed?

Sigh. At least Dulmea appears to have decided that taking part would be beneath her. Or possibly isn't aware of it/doesn't have a stake in whatever the fuck they're debating about. And debating by making breeds of magical demonic horse is probably better than debating by firing giant burning pinecones [at the Moon]/[into the Ruin] (delete as appropriate).

So yeah, continuing this debate in response to Echo's anyaglo and Haneyl's farisyya (and possibly to show that his horses would have done much better in that Wyld zone); Rathan has come up with the caelpans:


Caelpans, the Seafoam Statues
Demon of the First Circle
Progeny of the Martyred Moon

The armour of a caelpan is a decorative thing; soft and thin and fragile. Carved from creamy shell and rich red coral, it is not uncommon to find pearls or aquamarines set around the demon's face or the gold-lined holes left open above its joints and on its flanks or chest. Through these openings - some circular, others the crescent shape of a waning moon - it can be seen that the armour is hollow within; an empty golem in the shape of a slender human or a graceful stallion. The caelpan itself flows in through these holes, filling its home with its liquid form. When compressed inside its armour, the brine-body of a seaform statue is denser than steel and has pressure enough to crush stone to dust within itself. Water does not impede them in the slightest, and though slender, they are still surprisingly strong. They dare not risk combat in this state, though, for to fight would be to risk their precious shells and be bereft of beauty. To have its armour damaged or broken is a seafoam statue's nightmare, for such a tragedy would rob it of beauty and leave it naked and humiliated; exposed to the mockery of all.

When they must fight, a caelpan will protect its armour rather than the other way around. Their pressurised bodies expand out like a deep-sea blowfish to their true size and freeze into solid ice with their shells kept safe within. This leaves them enormous creatures; hippo-like in their bulk, but the speed of the transformation leaves the ice thick and gnarled; encrusted with spiked waves and frozen foam. Caelpans consider themselves hideous in this form, and hate to stay in it for long. Their loathing for their ugliness feeds their rage at the foe that forces them to show it, and so a caelpan in its battle form is a merciless berserker; aggressive to the point of madness. They are far faster than they look and can easily outpace a human over short distances, but away from water they tire easily and must soon retract themselves back into their armour.

Seafoam statues are born with only a single set of delicate armour; most often in the shape of a horse or a human. They seek to collect others - some by craft, some by trade and some by violence, even going so far as to take challenge their kin. Since the losers of such fights can be left with nothing to hide their hideous hulking forms, both participants will fight viciously, and the winner must often beat their foe almost to the point of death to subdue them. Sturdier armour is more difficult for them to come across, but is highly prized as long as it is beautiful - the caelpan who claims a suit of artifact plate is a prince among its people. Caelpans gain Limit whenever they are threatened with hideousness - either through damage to their armour or being forced to remain in their expanded forms for longer than an hour. When an empty suit of armour is filled with water, a caelpan may flow into it and add to its collection.


We can but wonder what statement he intends them to make.

(And yes, they are basically inspired by KSBD angels and the way they inhabit those cool armours. Plus the amusement of Rathan's water-horses being hippo-like: aggressive, territorial and much faster than they look over short distances.)
 
Back
Top