General Exalted Thread
Okay basically consider a big cooperation, You have a identity of the cooperation that is independent from the board of directors and basically the overarching pattern of the company. Then you have the board of directors which are headed by the chairman&CEO which is responsible for them but able to have a stronger influence on the course of the company. But the other members of the board are still able to influence the company.
And then you have the leaders of the Departments which are working for the Directors. These are the people that decide on the course of the company for a single department and so Advertising Europe, Advertising USA and Advertising Internet are working and helping the Director of Advertising develop his or her position.
And well then there are the Workers.
A Primordial works similar to this.
You have for example Malfeas.
Malfeas has some traditions and and his headed by a board of directors, with the Chairman Ligier, after the dual headed leadership style ended with the removal of Ruvalla back when Solar Corp tried that hostile takeover.
Ligier is first among the board of directors, but the others are still having a influence on the course of the Company. That is the level of the Third Circle souls which are direct expressions of the Primordial. For example the hate for the UCS is expressed in that bubbly sex pot over there that looks like the UCS and which tends to be part of every trash magazine, which is why Ligier is embarrassed about her even if they are on the same board and would like to minimise her influence on the company.
Each of these Directions is having additional underlings, which thanks to symmetric expression are at the fixed number of 7.
These are for examples "Ligers Creativity, Ligiers Anger, Ligiers Core Values ..:" and so on. This level is where the Second Circle demons are.
And well First Circle demons are not part of the Hierarchy, they are just workers and Rombas crafted to full fill the desires of the higher ups.
The reason for that is that each of them is simply too big in term of souls and essence weight to be squeezed into a single body and so you have the lower levels as pressure relive value .
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- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Oh boy- this is gonna be good- and you're going to get a lot of answers instead of just mine. So for 99% of your games this won't matter. Most people in Creation don't know, or don't care.
But, to answer your question... I'll give you a few answers:
First, is that you can see a Primordial as both a Pantheon of Gods, and as their 'Mythology', if you consider it a Place. Let's take Mount Olympus and the Olympian Gods. 'Olympus' is the Primordial, and all of his identity is manifested via the Gods. Olympus is still a PLACE though (the moutain) and stuff lives in it.
Zeus, Hera, Hades, etc, would all be his Third Circle souls- they're the ones who define his primary drives and interests. The things he cares about. They're beneath Primordial-Olympus, composed of him and he is composed of them. When Hera and Zeus have a fight, it's about the same as an internal debate in Olympus's mind.
Now these 3rd circles, they have their own territories and unique traits as part of their being. But a Third Circle is still to vast to be contained in singular form, so they have their own hierarchy of souls- Second Circle demons. These are the manifest aspects of the Third Circle.
So like, one of Hera's Second circles could be all about Wisdom, the other could be all about War, etc.
First Circles don't fit into this example so I'll go on to the next one:
Primordials are Corporations or Companies. The 'company name' is the Primordial. The Third Circles are the Board of Directors, (with the fetitch as CEO), and their Second Circles are all loosely connected middle managers. It's also worth noting that Primordials do not 'act' like humans and think like them, or even notice individual humans- just like a corporation.
So those are the two primary answers (so far).
First Circles are not actually PARTS of their progenitor souls- they're Species-as-Tools. A 2nd or 3rd circle demon said to themselves "I need a demon that's good at beating things up- I'll make Blood Apes!' And so there were Blood Apes.
There is a LOT more detail but I don't want to go into much further without repeating everyone else.
A primordial is too massive for a single soul, so they have third corcle souls. These reflect major aspects of the Primordial, and there is one which is even more critical called the Fetich. Killing a 3rd changes the primordial in some way, killing a fetich makes a new primordial.
Third circles are also too massive, and so have 2nd circle souls. These reflect important facets of Third circles. I believe there's a consistent number of 2nd circles per third. Killing a 2nd changes the third.
Tools are great, so the above will create tools. These tools happen to be alive and are called 1st circles.
Actually, they do. First Circles in the Primordial-as-Pantheon metaphor are all the incidental stuff that's associated with the pantheon, but aren't actually key to it. So for Olympus, things like centaurs and gorgons are First Circles - things that are associated with Greek Mythology and were made by the gods one way or another, but weren't fundamental to it. They're the "aesthetic trappings" of a pantheon, so to speak.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Good point- I just blanked on how to wedge it in.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Primordials are not so much a person or a place as they are an entire Mythos. Each Primordial is a self contained culture, a cosmos in and off itself that does not rely on outside context.
For example, if you took the works of H.P. Lovecraft than Cthulu would not be a Primordial. Neither would Nylarothep or Azatoth. The entire Lovecraft Mythos would be a single Primordial. Azatoth would be the fetich soul and the other outer gods would be the Lovecraft Mythos' various Third Circles. Their servitor gods, like Cthulu and Dagon, would be Second Circles. Lesser mythos creatures like Mi-Go, ghouls and deep ones would be various First Circle demons. There would also be various creatures, such as shoggoths, that aren't a direct part of the soul heirarchy but exist as Behemoths, or basically power monster its hard to classify.
For example, if you took the works of H.P. Lovecraft than Cthulu would not be a Primordial. Neither would Nylarothep or Azatoth. The entire Lovecraft Mythos would be a single Primordial. Azatoth would be the fetich soul and the other outer gods would be the Lovecraft Mythos' various Third Circles. Their servitor gods, like Cthulu and Dagon, would be Second Circles. Lesser mythos creatures like Mi-Go, ghouls and deep ones would be various First Circle demons. There would also be various creatures, such as shoggoths, that aren't a direct part of the soul heirarchy but exist as Behemoths, or basically power monster its hard to classify.
Oh hey back to lore, neat.
So in Green Sun, Black Shadows, we're using Mardukth as one of the Yozis instead of a Neverborn because he's got an awesome fanwritten charmset. How might the politics of Hell change in this situation? Mardukth used to be the king before Theion deposed him; perhaps he could make the argument that he wouldn't have surrendered, or led them to ruin? Perhaps he'd be strong enough to overthrow Malfeas where he couldn't defeat Theion? Or maybe Mardukth is bigger than the Demon City and so the Yozis are all locked up under his mountains, waiting for Jadeborn to dig too deeply and greedily.
So in Green Sun, Black Shadows, we're using Mardukth as one of the Yozis instead of a Neverborn because he's got an awesome fanwritten charmset. How might the politics of Hell change in this situation? Mardukth used to be the king before Theion deposed him; perhaps he could make the argument that he wouldn't have surrendered, or led them to ruin? Perhaps he'd be strong enough to overthrow Malfeas where he couldn't defeat Theion? Or maybe Mardukth is bigger than the Demon City and so the Yozis are all locked up under his mountains, waiting for Jadeborn to dig too deeply and greedily.
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- Location
- Singapore
Actually it's best likened to a company, but that works too.
greensun
You shall all burn beneath my light!!!
A quick look at their respective charm-trees shows that Malfes is tougher than Theion ever was in a fight, though he lacks the sheer force of personalty that the Ephemeral Chaos had. So it is quite possible for Mardukth to try and usurp Malfes from his throne of King of All Kings, but just as much chance for Malfes to just smash the Mountain and The Beast Upon It until he submits. Not to mention that Mardukth's main advantage, his social powers, are negated by Malfea's powerful social defense charms that have only gotten stronger since he lost the war.
So yes it is completely possible for Malfes still to be king of the Primordials.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
That's one way of looking at it, yeah. There's a reason the Titans are referred to as having 'world-bodies'.
Them being also a universe is more of a side effect of them having a Mythos, the counterpart to Fate. They are less comparable to a Anti-matter Universe. but more to a ecological system that takes up space.
And they are independant and not a hivemind, its more like , your reptile brain is saying to you that you need to push out agressive towards that idiot while your other brainparts are arguing for more restraint, In a body that is done via electrons and hormons. In Malfeas it is done via War and other itneractions between the Souls.
Or Id, Ego, Superego to go for a Freudian example.
Mardukth, the Weeping Mountain
Within the depths of Hell there is one Yozi who is lower and more wretched than the others. Trapped between two of the Demon City's layers, lies Mardukth who was once king. His spires are shattered. His stone temples are encased in Malfean lead. His own fetich hangs above him within a cage of brass, eyes pinned open so she must always watch the torment of her greater self and know she cannot change a thing. And blinded, castrated and chained upon a raw nugget of Malfeas' endless hate lies the Beast.
All these agonies were inflicted on him by his fellow Yozis. And the demon princes shudder when they think of him, and say 'For all my pains at least I am better than him' and that brings them some consolation in their torment. Sometimes he screams out 'Who am I?' and the knowledge seeps into him that he is Mardukth Twice-Chained.
During the Primordial War, Mardukth was an indomitable monster whose power rent formations of the Exalted and whose slave-legions took the very best to turn back. He slew the Solar bride of the Unconquered Sun and he tore the wings off Sextes Jylis, leaving the Wood Dragon eternally flightless. Each fearful whisper of his name was a little prayer. Still, despite that power he was brought to surrender for fear of his own death and like the other Yozis he was maimed and cast into Hell. Now, he had been king before Theion had come from the uncountable depths of chaos and he sought to reclaim his old title for Malfeas was not what the Universal Emperor had been.
The Demon City acted before his plans had come to fruition, and demonstrated to all that for all that he had been lessened in wisdom and vision, he had gained tenfold in endless hatred and spite. The toxic light of the mad green sun irradiated the slopes of Mardukth with a fury that had never been used against one of his kin before. Clad in armour of lead his demon princes fell upon the souls of the Beast Upon the Mountain, and slew many - taking others prisoner to inflict the same cruelties. And two of the layers of the City slammed together over the Mountain, sealing it within a most dreadful jail.
The other Yozis looked upon this scene and knew well that Malfeas had done this to show that he was still a jealous king and would brook no rival.
And since then Mardukth has lain beneath even the sewers of the Demon City. Sometimes Kimbery oozes into his chamber and drips her acids and her poisons upon his maiming, for she has never been able to resist a chance to add to the agonies of a poor unfortunate soul. Sometimes the Silent Wind blows through and laughs to see how he has been cut free from the chains of kinghood. Sometimes the Shadow of all Things gives him a few moment's surcease from pain - so that when he snatches it away the agony is all the sweeter. Each of the Yozis will torment the one who once ruled them and feel glad within their hearts that his agonies are mightier than theirs.
When the Weeping Mountain stirs and rage fills his tattered mind, the layers of Malfeas that hold him shake like leaves on the wind. His burning blood erupts forth from chasms in great haemoclastic flows. His agonising roaring send Adorjan fleeing hundreds of layers. His curses escape as winged beasts that savagely attack any demon they see. But for all his efforts he has not escaped. None of the Yozis will help him, for if he was free all would be as wretched as he is.
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oh man, that would be so trolltastic against someone using a dragon king living wood swordstick!
Have fun not being able to parry the swordstick also.
samdamandias
Apprentice Plane Wizard
Well I had this lodge in my head and I can't seem to get it out. How viable is the following premise for a campaign:
"Long ago in a distant land, I The Dragon's Shadow and shadow of all things, unleashed an unspeakable evil. But a foolish circle of Exalts wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me.
*sword-fight sounds*
Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in time and flung them into the future where my evil is law. Now the fools seek to return to the past and undo the future that is EBBY!"
Yes, I know Exalted doesn't do backwards time travel. Neither did Samurai Jack.
Forwards time travel is entirely viable. "You get stuck in a strange elsewhere no-realm which you can't get out of and time passes faster in it so you escape in days but it's actually been millenia" is entirely fine.
As long as it doesn't fail Usurpation-OK by giving Solars access to too-easy boltholes to escape murder-teams, at least.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
More like... Capitalism. Individual Third Circles may be companies, but the Yozi would be the system that connects the companies.
Aleph
Princess of Stabbity
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Nah. Yozi=corporation, Third Circles = Board, Second Circles = team leaders and sub-departments heads that answer to each board member, First Circles = grunt employees.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
That's too reductive of what Yozis are.
A Yozi isn't just a organization, it is a rule system that determines the way organizations even exist. Saying that a Yozi is a corporation gives the wrong impression of how the Yozi works. See, in the real world corporation are run by the employees but in Exalted a Primordial runs its Third Circles, not the other way around.
Yeah, sure, Ligier may disagree with what Malfeas wants and he may chafe under the restrictions Malfeas places on him but ultimately Ligier can't change Malfeas nature. Meanwhile, in a corporation if the board agreed to they could turn a corporation from a arms manufacturer to a charity based around feeding the homeless; the corporation itself can't reject this.
That's why I say the Yozi is the system under which the Third Circles operate. Malfeas isn't Lockheed Martin, Malfeas is captialism, the idea that things have Ownership and trade exists and so on and so forth. Yeah, Lockheed Martin could change its business strategy, but by itself it can't change the capitalist system under which it exists.
Now, obviously I'm not saying Malfeas is literally capitalism. I'm saying that the relationship between a Yozi and its Demons is on the same scale.
I think this 'corporation' idea is a large part of why people humanize the Yozi too much in their games. Because in the real world? You can fight Lockheed Martin. But if you up the scale from the individual business to the system under which that business operates... well, its much harder to fight capitalism than it is to destroy a single company.
Aleph
Princess of Stabbity
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Does it? Or is the Primordial emergent from all the interactions of the Third Circles that make it up? Does Ligier chafe under the passions of Malfeas, the entity, or under the emergent behaviour of the pantheon of which he is, in the end, only the first among equals?
Is there even a difference, in the end?
If every Third Circle of Malfeas changed, then I posit that Malfeas would change - but they won't be at all inclined to, and trying to get 22 Olympian-god-level entities that hate the imprisonment the Exalted forced upon them to suddenly change their minds and be happy fluffy bunnies would be a task that might actually be tougher than imprisoning them in the first place.
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Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Yes. Witness Autocthon, who decided he didn't like how his Third Circles ran things so he engaged in a little selective self-improvement.
The Malfean model is not the be all or end all of Primordial models. He runs it like that because he prefers it, but he could change it if he really wanted to.
- Location
- Virginia
As long as it doesn't fail Usurpation-OK by giving Solars access to too-easy boltholes to escape murder-teams, at least.
And as long as it doesn't fail Primordial War-OK by giving them the ability to whip up their own Jade Prisons on the fly.