Overall, TAWs have problems (I can go into some detail on those, having run a game with them for the last couple years) but they are an improvement in basically every way over canon Lunars.

Well, I'd like to hear that. TAW only began because Aleph wanted to play a Lunar for a pbp Heaven's Reach game and sadfaced at the Lunar charmset, so I wound up writing... um, rather more charms than I meant to, and then the whole splat. And then that pbp game died so they never saw much use. So I'd be interested in seeing what the in-play defects are.

(It'll certainly be better than Chai Tea's hack-job where she attempted to tear TAW down and did things like claim that it was too focussed on Charms - that's "no shit, sherlock" given it was made as a usable charmset for players - and that claim is fucking lol after how 3E turned out.)
 
Well, I'd like to hear that. TAW only began because Aleph wanted to play a Lunar for a pbp Heaven's Reach game and sadfaced at the Lunar charmset, so I wound up writing... um, rather more charms than I meant to, and then the whole splat. And then that pbp game died so they never saw much use. So I'd be interested in seeing what the in-play defects are.

(It'll certainly be better than Chai Tea's hack-job where she attempted to tear TAW down and did things like claim that it was too focussed on Charms - that's "no shit, sherlock" given it was made as a usable charmset for players - and that claim is fucking lol after how 3E turned out.)
Kylar probably has more specific comments to make, but broadly speaking our two TAW players faced different problems. Though the design intent of the splat (insofar as there was one; as you point out the concept grew progressively) was that TAW matched Solars on a personal scale but lacked the same large-scale powers, our Full Moon musclebeast ended up largely outclassed in personal combat by our two Sidereals (and would likely be outclassed by our Dragon-Blood today had the Full Moon player not dropped out before she joined), and was never again a credible match for a focused Dawn past the first quarter of the game. Our New Moon player expressed less issues (and was focused on different areas than the rest of the group, so direct comparison was less possible/relevant), but had some issues with stealth Charms of limited practicality and ultimately needed to homebrew some of her combat competency. I think? @AmineHsu I may be misrepresenting you here.
 
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True. This is not one of those cases. Compromising internal consistency is not a trade-off, it just leads to the story/setting turning into nonsense - you will note that when this is seen in Marvel and Star Trek, it is either tolerated or mocked, never praised.

Yes, maintaining internal consistency while dealing with fantastical elements can be difficult, but that's why it's a laudable skill and one of the hallmarks of a good writer.
Yes, it [inconsistency] is occasionally mocked. While, e.g. Transhuman Space is mocked for sticking to a relatively consistent world, because someone places wild-action adventurability above consistency.
You're right that consistency is a laudable skill. But it is a trade-off, because when it's low, it's always because it was sacrificed in order to increase some other property of a given work of art. Usually a property that the followers of the genre/series/whatever value higher than consistency at the current point of the tradeoff curve.
Imrix has it right:
First, do not tell me what I want, it's nothing more than domineering rudeness.

Second, what Penguins said. The form of storytelling that superhero comics do that you refer to, which I assume is the shared universe, is not incompatible with internal consistency. That the milieu is, today, so internally inconsistent is evidence of poor editing and many instances of writer failings, to a degree that at this point the rot is set in too deep to be practical to cleanse. That I'm forced to accept its presence and enjoy what I can in spite of it does not make it any less of an unnecessary flaw.
Accept and enjoy in spite of.
That's actually what happens with tradeoffs. Extremely simplified, for X units of work, one can improve the setting by either A units of consistency, or B units of drama else, or C units of something else. And as soon as the audience prefers a work of art with +B units of 'other stuff' to one with +A units of consistency (other things being equal - again, this is extremely simplified), we do have a case of a tradeoff occurring, favouring something over consistency.

I don't think it's unfair to say that superhero comics cannot be made self-consistent within their current paradigm. That it is too herculean a task for anyone to actually do.

That doesn't mean that people don't want them to be. Even continuity-nerd readers tend to want that continuity to work.

Kinda sounds like the case with Exalted, especially when combined with the following observation:

You can't want superhero comics to be self-consistent without also wanting them to be completely different from what they are today; a fundamentally different form of storytelling than what they have been for the past 75 years and what the overwhelming majority of their readership wants them to be. Sure, what I'm really saying is that most readers don't want them to be fully self-consistent and my "nobody" was hyperbole; but it's hyperbole with a grain of truth - if you want that you also want superhero comics as a medium to be radically altered into a completely different image.
I.e. that fixing all the inconsistencies will turn it into a fundamentally different sort of game line, with a different mood, themes, style, plots, characters etc. Something that probably is faster to do from the ground up than by patching what exists. But people don't want a new setting remade from the ground up - apparently people want Exalted.
 
I.e. that fixing all the inconsistencies will turn it into a fundamentally different sort of game line, with a different mood, themes, style, plots, characters etc. Something that probably is faster to do from the ground up than by patching what exists. But people don't want a new setting remade from the ground up - apparently people want Exalted.
Very much untrue.

I'm not going to go into it, because I am sick and tired of this debate you've dragged on for page after page after fucking page, but the situations are entirely different.
 
If the characters had the option to choose (including the NPCs, that's a thing) you'd gang up on a Solar with 10 mortals, with 4 mortals with swords or another high accuracy and decent damage weapon trying to distract the Solar by stabbing, 1 guy performing an Aim action with an oversized two handed hammer and the last 5 Defend Othering the guy with the big hammer.

Because in that case you can certainly lay down the hurt on the guy in the middle, and that would be an excellent choice of tactic.

The reason that doesn't happen isn't because the player decides what side the character should expose. Rather, the player decides what side the course of combat leaves exposed. It's a bit metagamey, but that's the way it works out.
How does that follow from the wording of the rule? "The player of the character trapped in a group chooses which opponent she exposes her back to". I don't see how making it a purely metagamey decision match either the letter or the spirit of the rule.
Also, why plural for characters? I'm talking about the character that is surrounded for each instance of a surrounding - are we on the same page regarding that one?

When you don't have room to maneuver because there's no space to move to as there's a body in the way? Yes, yes they can be.

First, let's note that there's a difference in system between 'I am unable to do anything' and 'I am not making any specific offensive, defensive or mobility action.' The first is called 'being inactive' and implies that the character is laid out on the ground for one reason or another. If you are inactive you aren't going to oppose any action taken to or around you. The second is called 'taking a Guard' action, where you are invested in not moving from your place and keeping up your DVs.

This is important; to successfully dodge you need the space to move, which #0 doesn't have in this case and as such take a -2 Dodge DV penalty. #0 also needs enough space left during combat to either contort their body into evading the blows (dodge) or to interpose his blade and/or shield onto any incoming attacks (parry), which also requires that he repositions his body due to simple facts of movement. Rules as Written note #0 most definitely doesn't have that space.

And if he has an ally in the battle (let's call her #1), #0 still doesn't have all the space he needs because #1 needs space too, and if #0 were to move into #1's field of movement both of them would foul up each other's defensive efforts. Now, #1 could move away, because she's not being ganged up upon and has the space needed to take a Move action away from combat, after which #0 could likewise try to extract himself.
Thing is, #1 takes up space and restricts #0's movement options whether #1 is an ally, enemy or neutral, assuming that #1 did not perform any special mobility-affecting Actions (body-slams, trips etc.). In case of taking the Guard, Aim etc. actions - if you want to leave Inactive out of this, then let us leave Inactive out of this.

Well then, let's hear yours.
I'm not a GM and don't know all the facts about the Guild. I'm pretty sure someone made a fortune writing a whole book on the topic, though.

OK, I can try, but please don't take it as seriously as you took my Yeddim reference: some solar elder did a Shinmaic Calibration and punched the Shinma of Trade Monopolies to favour the guild as long as it follows certain guidelines. Or maybe the founder of the Guild found a bug in the way commercial hierarchies work that was left after SWLiHN crashed the three spheres, figured that if he does some things in his lifetime, then for centuries his brainchild will live on - a sort of Psychohistory trick, but Creation-style; nobody else found out the truth, so nobody could repeat his feat.

There are problems when the precedents result in contradicting laws of nature and no method can be devised by which the conflict can be resolved. In such cases you either go for one set of rules which are consistent, important if you want to play a game without having it blow up due to rules conflicts causing silly results, or you go mad.

In modern day science we have the mutually incompatible relativity and quantum theories that break down and cause silly results in each other's general field of applicability. The thing is that these theories both work otherwise and it's known that they are incomplete and inconsistent with each other even though the world most definitely functions in accordance with both theories where they are applicable.

In Exalted you get cases where both rules overlap and offer plausible or sane results, but which are not the same. Which makes it not work properly. If you want to know what I mean, feel free to run a single Exalt against, say, 14 opponents in both the Mass Combat rules and the normal Combat rules.

EDIT: Even better, keep in mind that the Mass Combat rules value opponents based on their Health Levels. An extra has 3, so the system presumes that you take the combined total health levels of a given unit and divide it by 3, then compare it to the Mass Combat Magnitude chart.

At fourteen extras, that means 42 health levels, total.

A Lunar, fresh out of chargen, can have 27, which means that she counts for 9 extras. Which means that she, at chargen and in the Mass Combat Rules, counts as a Magnitude 1 unit. Actually, nearly all Exalts count as Magnitude 1 units, given the way rounding works in the game.

However, the system also presumes that any unit of a Magnitude greater than 0 is made up of multiple characters, and if the Magnitude falls because all health levels were filled the result tends to be 'subtract 1 Magnitude, restart count.' This result is nonsense in this case, but it's valid.

Keeping all that in mind, silly things happen when you have even two such Lunars. In the first, because the total health levels will be 54 it presumes that you are fighting under the same rules as fighting 18 extras...
The book is actually very explicit on what to do when Mass Combat and Regular Combat clash. Alas, it doesn't have a special procedure for handling inherently Mag-1 solo units, that I give you. I suppose one could squint at it and invoke the happens-to-members-of-a-unit rule, but I do agree that this is a case of a GM adding to the ruleset/changing the ruleset.
 
How does that follow from the wording of the rule? "The player of the character trapped in a group chooses which opponent she exposes her back to". I don't see how making it a purely metagamey decision match either the letter or the spirit of the rule.

Let me shift the emphasis: "The player of the character trapped in a group chooses which opponent she exposes her back to." Not the character makes the decision, the player. Because of this the character's decision is not relevant, which would quite reasonably be 'none of them.' The multiple opponents rule is an abstraction of the idea that you can't keep proper track of everything that goes on around you.

Any interpretation that depends on the interpretation of 'the character actually and factually turns their back on a specific attacker until the next DV refresh,' is idiotic, because if you tried that in an actual fight you get speared somewhere uncomfortable.

Also, why plural for characters? I'm talking about the character that is surrounded for each instance of a surrounding - are we on the same page regarding that one?

Because there is more than 1 character in the fight, and a dozen mortals out vote the single Solar in the middle. They would be invested in distracting the Solar from the guy with the hammer, and while the Solar is trying to kick the ass of said guy with the hammer (and having to go through the DVs of 5 other guys using every DV boosting trick they've got) he's either getting stabbed in the back (hope you've got good Soak!) or about to get hammered because he's paying attention to the guys waving sharp and shiny bits of metal in his direction.

Thing is, #1 takes up space and restricts #0's movement options whether #1 is an ally, enemy or neutral, assuming that #1 did not perform any special mobility-affecting Actions (body-slams, trips etc.). In case of taking the Guard, Aim etc. actions - if you want to leave Inactive out of this, then let us leave Inactive out of this.

...

That's what I said.

I'm not a GM and don't know all the facts about the Guild. I'm pretty sure someone made a fortune writing a whole book on the topic, though.

OK, I can try, but please don't take it as seriously as you took my Yeddim reference:

Okay, first, if you want a setting or ruleset to work properly be prepared to have people try and expose its every flaw and error. That's how you get more than an incoherent mess.

some solar elder did a Shinmaic Calibration and punched the Shinma of Trade Monopolies to favour the guild as long as it follows certain guidelines.

You mean like with the Order Conferring Trade Pattern that during the First Age tied all the far flung lands of Creation in a self reinforcing reference web?

That thing is no longer functional.

Also, Shinmaic Calibration is... one hell of a Charm that doesn't actually do what you think it does. SC creates the seed necessary to perform the sorcerous rituals that make that type of action possible. Said sorcerous rituals are... not exactly inconspicuous. Also, the sort of thing that the First Age Solars did not like to see happen without their knowledge.

Or maybe the founder of the Guild found a bug in the way commercial hierarchies work that was left after SWLiHN crashed the three spheres, figured that if he does some things in his lifetime, then for centuries his brainchild will live on - a sort of Psychohistory trick, but Creation-style; nobody else found out the truth, so nobody could repeat his feat.

You mean to tell me that some 700 transcendent supernaturally empowered individuals along with their millions of well educated supernaturally empowered underlings did not, in fact, discover an exploitable and very profitable flaw in the functioning of the world that some mortal stumbled upon without any such knowledge?
 
Kinda sounds like the case with Exalted, especially when combined with the following observation:

I.e. that fixing all the inconsistencies will turn it into a fundamentally different sort of game line, with a different mood, themes, style, plots, characters etc. Something that probably is faster to do from the ground up than by patching what exists. But people don't want a new setting remade from the ground up - apparently people want Exalted.

Yeah, no. This is a completely unsupported statement, one which is breathtaking in its complete inaccuracy. Your statement only makes sense if every single thing you ever wanted to do while playing Exalted relies completely and entirely upon the dumb shit.

For example. Let's pretend we have a magic wand, and promptly remove the insane mass combat bullshit, and the setting-destroying SMA. We'll force all entry and egress in to Malfeas to conform to the five day limit while we're at it. Delete any verisimilitude wrecking shit like the multiple continent-spanning single organisation of merchants, they can be broken into local organizations which happen to talk to neighbouring local organizations in the mercantile world in order to do business, which naturally forms a continent-spanning network of trade anyway. Replace every trireme in the Realm's fleet with a Chinese battle junk. Destroy any and all methods to quickly and cheaply teleport across large distances and trivialize travel without having First Age infrastructure. Nuke the Eclipse anima power. Burn the first two chapters of Infernals, Scroll of Heroes/Monk and Dreams of the First Age from the fabric of history. All these things have never existed.

What actually changes, here in this alternate reality? The only things noticeable are completely superficial, unless your game revolved around being able to use the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick, Join War with your pet rat to turn master swordsmen into peasant tier combatants, teleport across Creation trivially, exploit Malfeas time lag to send information into the past, use the same name for the local merchant organization everywhere you go, stack multiple splats' worth of charms to achieve ultimate cheese, etc.

Do you actually think these things are fundamental to the game, such that their presence dictates mood, theme, style and possible plots? A game without them is so different as to be akin to a whole new setting written from scratch? You seriously can't play Solar Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Dragon-Blooded Game of Thrones or Sidereal Bourne Identity or whatever without those things?

gr8 b8, m8.
 
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Let me shift the emphasis: "The player of the character trapped in a group chooses which opponent she exposes her back to." Not the character makes the decision, the player. Because of this the character's decision is not relevant, which would quite reasonably be 'none of them.' The multiple opponents rule is an abstraction of the idea that you can't keep proper track of everything that goes on around you.

Any interpretation that depends on the interpretation of 'the character actually and factually turns their back on a specific attacker until the next DV refresh,' is idiotic, because if you tried that in an actual fight you get speared somewhere uncomfortable.
Well duh, being in a combat surrounded by five opponents generally does result in getting speared somewhere uncomfortable. Logically, from the least-watched participant.
But making it such that the player designates which participant is least-watched is a thing, but the character has no idea which participant is least-watched by her is . . . some sort of weird agency bypass.

Because there is more than 1 character in the fight, and a dozen mortals out vote the single Solar in the middle. They would be invested in distracting the Solar from the guy with the hammer, and while the Solar is trying to kick the ass of said guy with the hammer (and having to go through the DVs of 5 other guys using every DV boosting trick they've got) he's either getting stabbed in the back (hope you've got good Soak!) or about to get hammered because he's paying attention to the guys waving sharp and shiny bits of metal in his direction.

...

That's what I said.
What I mean is that if it's possible to keep a watch on four opponents and no watch on the fifth, then it should logically not be harder to keep a watch on four opponents and no watch on the ally. Because the ally isn't trying to flank you nor trying to unbalance you by a shove nor anything like that. And you aren't actively trying to interfere with the ally either. (Also there's the option to substitute 'neutral' for 'ally'.)
Also, it's not a vote IMHO, because it's the surrounded hero needing to prioritise defences against different directions. But again, I see why you consider this logic inapplicable.

Anyway, I think I kinda sorta see that you're looking at it from a certain metagamey abstraction, and at this point I think it is unlikely that this exchange between the two of us will change each other's opinions. I suppose either way the greatest importance for me is how the GM handles such situations (a full 1:1:4 did not come up yet in the campaign).

Okay, first, if you want a setting or ruleset to work properly be prepared to have people try and expose its every flaw and error. That's how you get more than an incoherent mess.

You mean like with the Order Conferring Trade Pattern that during the First Age tied all the far flung lands of Creation in a self reinforcing reference web?

That thing is no longer functional.

Also, Shinmaic Calibration is... one hell of a Charm that doesn't actually do what you think it does. SC creates the seed necessary to perform the sorcerous rituals that make that type of action possible. Said sorcerous rituals are... not exactly inconspicuous. Also, the sort of thing that the First Age Solars did not like to see happen without their knowledge.
I didn't mean the fully-functional pattern. More like whatever shards remained of it. Someone finding a First-Age ruin and getting just a bit of use out of it seems to be a theme that exists in Exalted. All it takes is keeping it sufficiently secret/inaccessible to outsiders.

You mean to tell me that some 700 transcendent supernaturally empowered individuals along with their millions of well educated supernaturally empowered underlings did not, in fact, discover an exploitable and very profitable flaw in the functioning of the world that some mortal stumbled upon without any such knowledge?
And I thought 'there is this ancient thing that nobody used in millenia, and now we need to find it' the sort of theme that is common to epic stories? There also can be reasons why the supernaturally empowered might not be the best candidates for doing all that. (LotR is a possible example, though I wouldn't want anyone to steal LotR's ideas wholecloth into Exalted.)

Either way, that was just a quick idea based on what I know about the Guild and the setting, but I am still only beginning to learn about it. It's less than a year since I jumped into the whole thing, and I haven't read all the books I've been given access to, at least yet.

Yeah, no. This is a completely unsupported statement, one which is breathtaking in its complete inaccuracy. Your statement only makes sense if every single thing you ever wanted to do while playing Exalted relies completely and entirely upon the dumb shit.

For example. Let's pretend we have a magic wand, and promptly remove the insane mass combat bullshit, and the setting-destroying SMA. We'll force all entry and egress in to Malfeas to conform to the five day limit while we're at it. Delete any verisimilitude wrecking shit like the multiple continent-spanning single organisation of merchants, they can be broken into local organizations which happen to talk to neighbouring local organizations in the mercantile world in order to do business, which naturally forms a continent-spanning network of trade anyway. Replace every trireme in the Realm's fleet with a Chinese battle junk. Destroy any and all methods to quickly and cheaply teleport across large distances and trivialize travel without having First Age infrastructure. Nuke the Eclipse anima power. Burn the first two chapters of Infernals, Scroll of Heroes/Monk and Dreams of the First Age from the fabric of history. All these things have never existed.

What actually changes, here in this alternate reality? The only things noticeable are completely superficial, unless your game revolved around being able to use the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick, Join War with your pet rat to turn master swordsmen into peasant tier combatants, teleport across Creation trivially, exploit Malfeas time lag to send information into the past, use the same name for the local merchant organization everywhere you go, stack multiple splats' worth of charms to achieve ultimate cheese, etc.

Do you actually think these things are fundamental to the game, such that their presence dictates mood, theme, style and possible plots? A game without them is so different as to be akin to a whole new setting written from scratch? You seriously can't play Solar Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Dragon-Blooded Game of Thrones or Sidereal Bourne Identity or whatever without those things?

gr8 b8, m8.
I don't care about some of those things. For instance, I'm quite indifferent regarding whether crossbows are available, whether outside Haslanti or at all. I don't have a Trireme in the regatta of the Realm's ships . . . but apparently for some people Triremes are one of the icons of Exalted, and they preferred to keep them. I know little about Sidereals, but it seems like 'closed charmset' is a thing people wanted to retain, and SMAs as a concept are seen as the way a splat with a closed charmset would do some weird stuff (I do agree that the Monky ones are ridiculously broken). I kinda welcome banning spells that allow one to travel faster than GracefulCraneStancing on a peregrine hawk Familiar with the Speed-Sustaining Technique). I'm kinda indifferent to nuking the Eclipse Trainability right now, but apparently other people though the concept is neat enough that it was worthy of adding the Eclipse keyword to many Charms (note: I generally think Eclipse Trainability would be OK if Charms didn't have ridiculously complicated synergies that result in brokenness when combined unexpectedly . . . but I come from GURPS). I think both Mass Combat and Regular Combat are unnecessarily overengineered given the results they manage to achieve; ideally I'd want to see them streamlined. Toning down Elders makes Usurpation look not as impressive, and also removes the hyped worldshaping mythic heroes theme, leaving something much closer to the power level of Dungeon Fantasy, 20ish level AD&D and the like - something that I would take in stride, but that is nonetheless something of a reduction of grandeur relative to the 2e concept of Exalted.

OTOH, some themes or world-phenomena I have already grown to like (despite normally being the sort of person who criticises everything - see, for example, my early reactions to THS at SJGF . . . okay, that was more of a rhetorical offer, sorry).
For instance, the Guild allows one to not worry (much) about different coinages between faraway regions, and provides a universal banking network to avoid worrying about portable wealth (much); this is something that actually comes up in the campaign; fiddling with foreign denominations and different metal values would probably be seen as an issue not worthy of a mythic epos that is Exalted by many people; oh, removing the Guild as a megaguild would also make it much easier for the Realm to just choke dissenting city-states economically, since now the world becomes economically monopolar. The Realm as a decadent, fading, crumbling-on-the-inside-but-scary-from-the-outside corrupt evil empire that can't decide whether fighting Solars or fighting for power is more important - this is very much a theme in Exalted, it seems (and yes, some empires do look like that - we have one to the northeast). The looming threat from Abyssals and Infernals seem like neat things to include in a campaign sooner or later - in our case, it's primarily Walker in Scavenger Lands, it seems. Removing Lookshy-the-way-it-is will result either in Scavenger Lands becoming occupied by the Realm, or needing to change either SLs or the Realm.
See what I mean? There are many things someone is unhappy about, but somebody else considers iconic, or plot-hooky, or otherwise desirable. I'm expecting that if everything that was criticised like that gets removed, there will be a significant backlash, of the 'Y is not really X, but dares to call itself X and kinda pretends to be like X' sort, like there was with nWoD or some of the other reboots of franchises. (Not saying that there aren't successful reboots.)
 
... How do you think characters make decisions, if not by the player making decisions?
I think character in fact do make decisions based on player decisions. With adjustments for things like Virtues or being Mentally Influenced, but mostly by Player Decisions. I'm used to thinking that the normal (non-MI'd etc.) chain of decisionmaking is Player Decision->Character Decision->Character Action.

But the idea that the player says 'hey character, out of these five combatants, it is safest to expose your back to this one, and the character doesn't make an equivalent decision but does perform the action - that is a very alien concept for me. That's Player Decision->Character Action somehow skipping Character Decision.
 
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I think character in fact do make decisions based on player decisions. With adjustments for things like Virtues or being Mentally Influenced, but mostly by Player Decisions. I'm used to thinking that the normal (non-MI'd etc.) chain of decisionmaking is Player Decision->Character Decision->Character Action.

But the idea that the player says 'hey character, out of these five combatants, it is safest to expose your back to this one, and the character doesn't make an equivalent decision but does perform the action - that is a very alien concept for me. That's Player Decision->Character Action somehow skipping Character Decision.
Characters have no way to make decisions without their player. They literally cannot make any decisions without someone outside the game deciding for them.
A player's decision is indistinguishable from their character's decision.
 
Characters have no way to make decisions without their player. They literally cannot make any decisions without someone outside the game deciding for them.
A player's decision is indistinguishable from their character's decision.
Uh, I agree with you, which is why I find @Hazard's PoV on the five-enemies issue so alien. Which is why I find the idea of the player decision bing X but the character's decision or lack therof apparently being distinct from the player's, and not due to UMI/NMI/Virtues/etc., to be weird. Particularly in a situation where the character performs an action in accordance with the player's decision.
 
Could you please elaborate on what happened as you played one? Just bad mechanics, or are we talking about fluff problems you encountered?
I have very little knowledge of Lunars. I get that 'silver solars' is meant to refer to rather generic charmsets and the fact that like Solars they just did a lot of ruling over mortals (direct or indirect). But what's the similarity with Infernals, at all?

I think I've described my play experience before in this thread, but as my first Exalted game and character of any length, it was my introduction to everything wrong with Exalted. In particular, I accidentally into the Tryant Lizard build. So it's been years, but a quick list of problems I probably experienced would include:
  • They seem to have about one-and-a-half builds. (I think there might also be an almost functional flying perception archery build which could be fun, but I doubt it works.)
  • A bunch of the charms are cool enough one would want to use them, but are mutually exclusive with the one true build in use.
  • The attribute favoring set up leads to characters with a single focus that leaves them nearly useless for half nearly any story.
  • They don't get enough attribute dots for what they should want to be doing, further preventing them from branching out.
  • There's little useful I could build on in the setting chapter for my character.
  • Form changing knacks are over-costed for their effect.
  • Eating creatures before the game starts isn't appropriately costed against eating them in play.

There are probably more, but it's been years. Some of this is in comparison to Nocturnals, an actually well written Attribute Exalt. At this point, I'm not convinced the game line benefits from Lunars as a playable splat. I, personally, think they'd have been useful as the super wyld critters if they should have been included at all.

The silvery infernals is the negative comment on TAW, which I have not read, because by the time it came out I'd stopped caring about Lunars. (I assume they are supposed to emulate chosen of Luna, but once again, I'd stopped caring about Lunars by that point.)
 
Well duh, being in a combat surrounded by five opponents generally does result in getting speared somewhere uncomfortable. Logically, from the least-watched participant.
But making it such that the player designates which participant is least-watched is a thing, but the character has no idea which participant is least-watched by her is . . . some sort of weird agency bypass.

The character isn't deciding which of the participants is least watched, rather, the character is trying to watch all of them. What happens is that the expectation is that at minimum one participant will do something sufficiently unanticipated that the defenses of the character are compromised to the extent that the attack said participant attempts benefits from the 'unexpected attack' rule.

That doesn't mean the attacker can't screw up (rolling no successes or performing a botch is a possibility).

What happens is that, perhaps as a courtesy to the player, the player decides which of the attackers gets this benefit.

What I mean is that if it's possible to keep a watch on four opponents and no watch on the fifth, then it should logically not be harder to keep a watch on four opponents and no watch on the ally. Because the ally isn't trying to flank you nor trying to unbalance you by a shove nor anything like that. And you aren't actively trying to interfere with the ally either. (Also there's the option to substitute 'neutral' for 'ally'.)

I would hope that you are watching your ally, as when you are in confines that close you need to keep an eye out for them or end up fouling each other. You are actively attempting to ensure you don't interfere with their defense.

Also, it's not a vote IMHO, because it's the surrounded hero needing to prioritise defences against different directions. But again, I see why you consider this logic inapplicable.

When there's a dozen people saying 'I stab you' and you saying 'nuh uh,' I'd say there's a voting process going on :p

I didn't mean the fully-functional pattern. More like whatever shards remained of it. Someone finding a First-Age ruin and getting just a bit of use out of it seems to be a theme that exists in Exalted. All it takes is keeping it sufficiently secret/inaccessible to outsiders.

When it's a mortal against an Exalt, the mortal will eventually lose. This is as true in combat as it's in subterfuge.

And I thought 'there is this ancient thing that nobody used in millenia, and now we need to find it' the sort of theme that is common to epic stories? There also can be reasons why the supernaturally empowered might not be the best candidates for doing all that. (LotR is a possible example, though I wouldn't want anyone to steal LotR's ideas wholecloth into Exalted.)

The supernaturally empowered are always the best candidates for that, on account of them having the biggest dicepools to manage it. The only exception would be something deliberately designed to be inoperable to the supernaturally empowered, and that's just not something that fits the history of the setting.


I don't care about some of those things. For instance, I'm quite indifferent regarding whether crossbows are available, whether outside Haslanti or at all. I don't have a Trireme in the regatta of the Realm's ships . . . but apparently for some people Triremes are one of the icons of Exalted, and they preferred to keep them.

Triremes are actually pretty good ships, if you want to engage in litoral trade or combat operations, but they need a lot of maintenance and have weak hulls.

The Inner Sea and especially the West are not places with conditions that support trireme based operations, and the game likes to pretend it is.

I know little about Sidereals, but it seems like 'closed charmset' is a thing people wanted to retain, and SMAs as a concept are seen as the way a splat with a closed charmset would do some weird stuff (I do agree that the Monky ones are ridiculously broken).

The problem with a closed charmset is that homebrewing Charms is impossible, and when Martial Arts are the only way you can get more or better Charms than Sidereals already have it's an experience tax on every Sidereal that doesn't favour MA.

I kinda welcome banning spells that allow one to travel faster than GracefulCraneStancing on a peregrine hawk Familiar with the Speed-Sustaining Technique).

Really rapid travel spells and Charms are actually not a problem in and off themselves. It becomes a problem when any given halfway wealthy person can dump some money at the nearest sorcerous bus station and be whisked across the length and breadth of Creation in days. Travel is supposed to be difficult and involved, and even the best magic users in game must expend major resources to move a small group of people very quickly (for example, the teleportation spell (the Celestial Circle Spell Travel Without Distance) moves an (Essence IIRC) amount of people 50*Essence miles at a time, and every casting if it's multiple people is about 20 minutes long, and is not a trivial expense with 2 Willpower and a lot of motes.

There are even spells that make it possible to move large groups of people very quickly, or large amounts of cargo. But each of these are Celestial or Solar Circle Spells, which means that you only have a very limited pool of people that could do it, all of which are probably going to be doing much more important things than acting as your personal ferry.

I'm kinda indifferent to nuking the Eclipse Trainability right now, but apparently other people though the concept is neat enough that it was worthy of adding the Eclipse keyword to many Charms (note: I generally think Eclipse Trainability would be OK if Charms didn't have ridiculously complicated synergies that result in brokenness when combined unexpectedly . . . but I come from GURPS).

This is the general opinion of players as well. It's not that the Eclipse Charmshare ability is a bad concept. It's that the synergy made possible by being able to pick and choose your Charms across every splat possible causes idiotic results unless every splat's Charms are exhaustively tested with every other splat's Charms, rather than merely requiring they are internally functional.

For instance, the Guild allows one to not worry (much) about different coinages between faraway regions, and provides a universal banking network to avoid worrying about portable wealth (much);

Universal banking is... actually a pretty complicated invention that requires a lot of political stability. The game's economic system also doesn't require a lot of explaining of the nitty gritty of every possible currency. The Realm's Jade and Script system are important because it's part of the socio economic control system, and a cursory explanation will do. Likewise can the Treshold's currency system be handled with a simple 'this is an example currency that the book uses to handle all economic activity in the Treshold. Actual currency in use may differ, but this isn't relevant to the players and abstracted away for ease of play.'

make it much easier for the Realm to just choke dissenting city-states economically, since now the world becomes economically monopolar.

This is a thing that happens, although the Realm is actually not able to project its martial and economic might sufficiently to choke out everything. That said, yes, they basically rule most of the coastal regions, as that's where they can send their power.

The Realm as a decadent, fading, crumbling-on-the-inside-but-scary-from-the-outside corrupt evil empire that can't decide whether fighting Solars or fighting for power is more important - this is very much a theme in Exalted, it seems (and yes, some empires do look like that - we have one to the northeast).

Although corrupt and decadent, prior to the Empress' disappearance it was ably enough led to force the Lunars to lie low and avoid making too many waves in places they'd be noticed (which is most of the economically productive regions of Creation).

The looming threat from Abyssals and Infernals seem like neat things to include in a campaign sooner or later - in our case, it's primarily Walker in Scavenger Lands, it seems. Removing Lookshy-the-way-it-is will result either in Scavenger Lands becoming occupied by the Realm, or needing to change either SLs or the Realm.

Well, yes that's working as intended...

But the idea that the player says 'hey character, out of these five combatants, it is safest to expose your back to this one, and the character doesn't make an equivalent decision but does perform the action - that is a very alien concept for me. That's Player Decision->Character Action somehow skipping Character Decision.

But the thing is that I don't presume the character makes the decision to expose their back to one combatants. I presume that events that were abstracted away for ease of play led to the situation.

In the case of getting ganged up upon, it's the character's decisions going, 'need to parry that one, and that one, and that one and... crap, too slow/out of position to parry that one and no room to dodge.'

Uh, I agree with you, which is why I find @Hazard's PoV on the five-enemies issue so alien. Which is why I find the idea of the player decision bing X but the character's decision or lack therof apparently being distinct from the player's, and not due to UMI/NMI/Virtues/etc., to be weird. Particularly in a situation where the character performs an action in accordance with the player's decision.

But the thing is, the character doesn't make the same decisions as the player. If the player decides 'I'm going to play a song in an attempt to sooth any flaring tempers, and roll some dice to determine the effect' the character isn't going to decide that. The character is going to go 'tempers are running high, I might be able to calm them down by playing a song, but what song? Right, that song. Let's hope it works.'

Likewise, if a player decides to have the character write a book the player only has to decide what he wants to do with it. The character has to decide on everything else on top of that.
 
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The character isn't deciding which of the participants is least watched, rather, the character is trying to watch all of them. What happens is that the expectation is that at minimum one participant will do something sufficiently unanticipated that the defenses of the character are compromised to the extent that the attack said participant attempts benefits from the 'unexpected attack' rule.

That doesn't mean the attacker can't screw up (rolling no successes or performing a botch is a possibility).

What happens is that, perhaps as a courtesy to the player, the player decides which of the attackers gets this benefit.



I would hope that you are watching your ally, as when you are in confines that close you need to keep an eye out for them or end up fouling each other. You are actively attempting to ensure you don't interfere with their defense.
If me not declaring an attack against an enemy #1 does not foul up said enemy's defence, then so shouldn't my non-attacking against an ally #1 in the same spot. If neither of us spends a Move on stepping into each other's hex, and neither of us attacks another with a shove, and neither of us Defends other nor attacks another, then it should absolutely be possible for there to be a no worse effect than if it's an enemy.

When it's a mortal against an Exalt, the mortal will eventually lose. This is as true in combat as it's in subterfuge.

The supernaturally empowered are always the best candidates for that, on account of them having the biggest dicepools to manage it. The only exception would be something deliberately designed to be inoperable to the supernaturally empowered, and that's just not something that fits the history of the setting.
Yes, eventually. And the point of the set-up was for this 'eventually' to occur 'probably when the 300 Solar God-Kings-and-Queens return'. Also, I'm pretty sure there are in fact some artifacts and/or Charms that say 'this has no effect on Exalts'. (I suppose someone will scream bad design at this point.)

But the thing is that I don't presume the character makes the decision to expose their back to one combatants. I presume that events that were abstracted away for ease of play led to the situation.

In the case of getting ganged up upon, it's the character's decisions going, 'need to parry that one, and that one, and that one and... crap, too slow/out of position to parry that one and no room to dodge.'

But the thing is, the character doesn't make the same decisions as the player. If the player decides 'I'm going to play a song in an attempt to sooth any flaring tempers, and roll some dice to determine the effect' the character isn't going to decide that. The character is going to go 'tempers are running high, I might be able to calm them down by playing a song, but what song? Right, that song. Let's hope it works.'

Likewise, if a player decides to have the character write a book the player only has to decide what he wants to do with it. The character has to decide on everything else on top of that.
OK, you don't presume that the character prioritises opponents when defending. And I find it odd that in this case the player does get the right to define the priority. I find this interpretation of the rule to be immersion-breaking.
Also, your 'tempers high' example is actually how I see the Player Decision-->Character Decision-->Character Action chain: the player's decision has to be translated into ingameactionese. Which can in fact include details on how to write a book that the character knows and the player doesn't.
 
The problem with a closed charmset is that homebrewing Charms is impossible, and when Martial Arts are the only way you can get more or better Charms than Sidereals already have it's an experience tax on every Sidereal that doesn't favour MA.
Homebrewing is not impossible. You just say "this already existed". It does mean that you can't whip up custom charms specifically for your character that are only really appropriate for them.
 
"@vicky_molokh Against The World" has been going on for nearly thirty pages now, it's kind of amazing.

In the interests of shaking things up and because I'm bored, quick, someone ask for Ex3 homebrew!
 
"@vicky_molokh Against The World" has been going on for nearly thirty pages now, it's kind of amazing.

In the interests of shaking things up and because I'm bored, quick, someone ask for Ex3 homebrew!

Make an artifact set of tattoos which acts as armor so someone can play some sort of angry Maori warrior.

Actually, speaking about boring boredom of boredness, @EarthScorpion mentioned novas and Aberrant way back when discussing Skitter in Creation and how parahumans are not novas and do not get the A-splat protections that they do. We can discuss throwing novas into Creation, @Havocfett's Ravana Quest, and how this can be a great/terrible/hilarious idea.
 
Touhou style danmaku Throw Charm cascade!
What, Shower of Deadly Blades not good enough for you? Seriously though this is a cool idea but above my capacities at the moment.

Evocations are cool. I could do with some practical experience designing some. I'll do @horngeek's, @Anasurimbor's and @MJ12 Commando's in turn provided I don't burn out before I reach the end. If there's some left in me after that I'll do some necromancy for @Scia.
 
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