Part of the issue on the way the whole fate of Lookshy thing is presented in that book also is simply that like...fate doesn't do that in 3e. So it also to an extent just isn't really very compatible with the setting in itself.
The Realm does not protect Creation, save in that protecting Creation serves the interests of the Dynasty. They drain the world of wealth and material, they kill those who might protect it in their stead, they take its sons and daughters to as as light infantry for its legionaries, leaving their homelands vulnerable. The Realm isn't some pastiche of what America used to like imagining itself to be. It's just an Empire, and if it saves anyone, it does it in order to impose chains upon them and reap value from their life and labor.
EDIT: Like, for real. If the Realm vanished tomorrow, displaced to some empty setting it can happily loot without harming anyone who lives there, more people would be better off than not because the Realm is awful. It'd have some downsides, but nothing like what you're talking about. The unaffiliated DBs and Sidereals and Exigents and Solars and Lunars and Liminals got this handled, even if times'll be rough with the Deathlords and warring Solars and the plots of the Infernals and their demonic allies.
Kind of one of the more pernicious parts of empires is that they make themselves necessary in the sense of "I'll take all you fuckers down with me" sense. A lot of the "Things get worse if the empire isn't here" rhetoric is to an extent, an insurance policy of empires to make the process of tearing them down more painful than just keeping your head down and not drawing their ire. It's kind of a bit of taking the subjects of empire as hostages of that empire while at it.
Damn, it feels like it has been an age since I saw this; like a resident of a fallen Age of Sorrows once more resurfacing the wonders of the Age that was. This thing blew my mind when I was a teenager, I gotta play it again.
I was a little iffy with the new Exalted, but after reading several new books, yeah, the world really does feel bigger I don't feel they enroach much of niche of old Exalted types.
I think there's sort of a litmus test of a certain historical divide in the fandom, and it's the question of Exigents. Exigents were introduced as a concept about a decade ago, and as an actual book about three years ago with the crowdfunding campaign.
As a result, there are a numbers of assumptions and preconceived notions that sort of accumulated over time into an idea of what Exigents are and what the problems with them are, that doesn't really have much to do with the actual Exigents we got when they were published. Stuff like "these could just be God-Blooded" or the idea that Exigents means any random god can create an Exalt, or that the Exigents are an "add-on" that cramps or cheapens the setting, that you see people drag up, when the actual released product is more specific and has more complex background that fits into the setting pretty seamlessly.
I speak as someone who got into Exalted with 2e and absorbed a bunch of it as my identity, but a lot of the time I read convos with old heads and I'm just like... I can't make you read the books so you can have an actual informed opinions instead of a bunch of clichés created over ten years, but I kinda wish I could.
I'm probably one of people that was pretty open for Exigent in the first place, since I just latched on 'a way to start as Devil-Tiger without fixing background too much', and I'm just like 'ah, got it'.
I'd like to have this as a banner for every ttRPG and written media thread. I'd love to have it carved seven hundred miles across the face of the moon in several languages.
Preach.
I found exigents very useful as a storyteller. It gave me some one off exalts I can build to suit the story, whose charms can step away from the orthodox without exploding the system.
I speak as someone who got into Exalted with 2e and absorbed a bunch of it as my identity, but a lot of the time I read convos with old heads and I'm just like... I can't make you read the books so you can have an actual informed opinions instead of a bunch of clichés created over ten years, but I kinda wish I could.
I mean I guess you could buy me the book and I'd glance at it, but I recommend against getting that invested in an internet debate.
I freely admit I don't know much about Exigents beyond knowing they're conceptually Exalted of "lesser" gods. The thing is, it doesn't actually matter. They can be done well or poorly, but they're not going to change my belief that the setting didn't need new Exalt types of any sort, and adding new Exalt types by necessity encroaches on the storytelling space of the extant Exalts (because now you have a new thing that occupies what would have been the design space for a previous splat, in the same sense that Infernals take up a lot of what would have previously been "Solar who sides with the Yozi" storytelling space).
It's nothing about them specifically. Personalized Exalts of gods can undoubtedly be interesting in many ways, and if it was done well, all the better. But there was also lots of interesting ways to deal with the concept of half-Castes, and the setting was nonetheless better off as a whole without them.
I mean I guess you could buy me the book and I'd glance at it, but I recommend against getting that invested in an internet debate.
I freely admit I don't know much about Exigents beyond knowing they're conceptually Exalted of "lesser" gods. The thing is, it doesn't actually matter. They can be done well or poorly, but they're not going to change my belief that the setting didn't need new Exalt types of any sort, and adding new Exalt types by necessity encroaches on the storytelling space of the extant Exalts (because now you have a new thing that occupies what would have been the design space for a previous splat, in the same sense that Infernals take up a lot of what would have previously been "Solar who sides with the Yozi" storytelling space).
It's nothing about them specifically. Personalized Exalts of gods can undoubtedly be interesting in many ways, and if it was done well, all the better. But there was also lots of interesting ways to deal with the concept of half-Castes, and the setting was nonetheless better off as a whole without them.
This is such a bizarre take to me. The setting is not zero sum. Solars who side with the Yozis still exist. My last game featured not one, but two Sidereals who were primarily concerned with Help and the Demons over Creation because they were born there! The existence of Thousand Venoms Mistress does not mean you can no longer make a Wood Aspect master of poisons who can rival her ability.
This attitude that the existing playspace has to be "protected" from encroachment and new additions to the setting can only come at the expanse of the already established splats, so the setting must stay in a holding pattern because anything new is actually making "your" splat less cool, is I think rooted in the incredibly toxic and competitive attitudes of the old forums and doesn't reflect how the game is written in practice.
Like... The Sovereigns are a princely dynasty of Terrestrial Exalts who fight a game of deadly court politics among themselves, and my personal experience is that this surface similarity to Dynasts actually enhances both splats because of all the ways in which they're actually deeply, deeply different, so having DB and Sovereign characters interact brings out to the fore all these nuances and irreconcilable differences between them (usually leading into one or both sides wanting to rip the other's head off on sheer outrage).
I suspect that a reason might be that we don't have that much canon material dealing with the forces of the Realm working to protect the Satrapies and Creation in general from the various forces (the Deathlords and lesser Dead, Fair Folk, Demons, malicious gods, fanatical Exalted, ETC) that wish to torment or enslave them. This should be a large component of Realm and Dragonblooded activity but it is overshadowed by the conflicts with the Solars (I think it was only 5 or so active prior to the breaking of the Jade Prison) and the Lunar exalted (a max of 300 spread across Creation)
The setting paradigm would have the most common target of the Wild Hunt be malicious supernatural beings preying on Mortals in violation of the Immaculate Order but it seems like pretty much all the canon coverage deals with them hunting down the extremely rare (on a Creation scale) Solars and Lunars.
The Realm (the book, not the uh- the polity) is really one of my favorites of the 3e line for how it puts a lot of words and effort to describing the sort of tangible existence of The Realm (the polity not the uh- the book) and what it's like, how it's feels to its citizens, its beneficiaries, its subjugated masses, and its victims. It talks a lot about the operation of the Legions and how they traditionally maintained the imperial peace but one of the best additions by far is in the sections on the Immaculate Order. Which elaborate on its role within the empire, and provides a lot of information on how it is experienced by most of those within the Realm's sphere of influence and the administrative technologies and organs (the Breaths are really good honestly) it uses to manage them. And it does a great job of highlighting the sort of ambiguity of the IO within Creation.
Article:
The Breaths of the Immaculate Dragons
The Immaculate Order's administrative wing organizes itself according to the Order's practical needs. While missions provide staffing based on geographic location, each of the five administrative divisions — called Breaths — addresses a specific array of problems using a floating staff, rapidly deployed throughout the Realm. These monks provide logistical support and planning for Immaculate projects, plus additional staff when necessary. Each Breath claims tens of thousands of staff on the Blessed Isle alone, and they're well-prepared to concentrate their forces in cases of emergency. In times of peace and prosperity they're more scattered but still busy, for the Order requires unceasing work.
Each Breath is headquartered at a major temple on the Blessed Isle. Many administrators visit their headquarters rarely, for their work is wide-ranging and continuous.
The Breath of Sextes Jylis (Human Resources and Public Works) focuses on development of sustainable resources, both human and natural. This Breath's staff handles recruitment, sorting, and assignment for would-be monks, and in truth they maintain a constant (even intrusive) presence throughout the life of any monk, sometimes arranging painful lessons to provide some expected spiritual benefit. This Breath's staff also orchestrates large-scale environmental planning initiatives, such as creating dams, food-bearing forests, and stable agricultural communities. With more staff than any other Breath, the Breath of Sextes Jylis often seems omnipresent in Immaculate-influenced areas. In the wake of a natural disaster, the Breath provides significant support and infrastructure to restore the community's needs, and coordinates with the Breath of Daana'd for optimal disaster relief.
The Breath of Pasiap (Architecture and Geomancy)oversees and contracts out the construction and maintenance of structures belonging to the Immaculate Order, and manages and budgets the Order's wealth. This Breath's staff includes groundskeepers, architects, geomancers, actuaries, and various specialists providing necessary insight into the Order's diverse holdings and resources. They leave public works to the Breath of Sextes Jylis, but occasionally hire out their construction services to keep work crews productive and skilled. While manse maintenance is highly prestigious work, and construction is fairly public, this Breath downplays its own importance in managing the Order's funds. As an organization devoted to ideals — and one with no desire to be seen as a rival by the Great Houses — the Order prefers not to flaunt its prodigious wealth.
The Breath of Mela (Combat Training and Military Planning) defends the Immaculate Order and provides training so the Order's monks can defend themselves. Organization and maintenance of Wyld Hunts and martial orders falls to this Breath, as does placement of military force — for the Immaculate Order, this mostly means guarding particular locations or individuals. Though the Breath of Sextes Jylis prepares acolytes for life as a monk, the Breath of Mela provides much of their actual training, for the monk's way combines spiritual, mental, and physical perfection. Despite their importance to the legendary martial prowess of Immaculate monks, the Breath of Mela has the smallest staff of any Breath — most monks see themselves primarily as spiritual and social guides, not warriors.
The Breath of Hesiesh (Special Projects) provides for emergent needs that lack established procedures, reinforces the other Breaths with additional manpower, trains mortal thaumaturges and sorcerers in pious us-age of their gifts, and handles assets of inauspicious origin such as Exigents and dangerous First Age artifacts. The Breath of Hesiesh takes an unusually egalitarian and practical approach to staffing and problem-solving, resulting in a population consisting heavily of the old, infirm, and eccentric. Monks who have trouble fitting in with the order find their talents put to good use by the Breath of Hesiesh, and even those with no particular talents may find a place in the Breath's ranks. As a side effect of its makeup, the Breath of Hesiesh varies in size. When a population boom of monks grows older, or when pestilence renders large swaths of the monkhood infirm, the Breath of Hesiesh's ranks can swell to ex-ceed all but the Breath of Sextes Jylis'.
The Breath of Daana'd (Human Community Development) sees to the needs of communities that the Immaculate Order seeks to guide. Where the Breath of Sextes Jylis focuses on environmental concerns, the Breath of Daana'd provides social services such as health-care, housing, and education in various contexts. Monks provide care for their communities at every stage of life, guided by the Breath of Daana'd's standards and priorities. In times of crisis, this Breath provides humanitarian aid. Many monks find this Breath's work rewarding yet spiritually challenging, for they're ideally placed to notice early signs of heresy and social unrest. Duty dictates that a monk cut away such threats by any means necessary, even from a community that she's come to love.
Most people within the Realm learn to read at the feet of monks, most public libraries in the Realm are organized, maintained, and managed by the Immaculacy, most social services (such as they are) are through temples and missions. It's by the Order that people are taught to recognize spiritual dangers and it's often the Order that's the first line of response to those threats, forming a crucial link and mediating layer to other parts of the imperial apparatus (like the prefectural or satrapial government, local Great House presence, or, in the past, the Legions). But at the same time the Order acts deliberately to control information and regularly acts as censors, it often intrusively monitors the populace and acts as a moral police force.
This is one of the key bodies that looks after the wellbeing of all those ruled by the Scarlet and it's a very ambivalent picture! And I just find it kind of fascinating and really useful as a point of analysis and discussion of life in the Realm, since it's more engaged with the day-to-day lived realities of most characters in that like- in that sphere. You're more likely to deal with a predatory spirit or an outbreak of disease than a Solar and while the monks are there for the Solar too, stuff like the Breaths provides a window into how they manage the former.
It's nothing about them specifically. Personalized Exalts of gods can undoubtedly be interesting in many ways, and if it was done well, all the better. But there was also lots of interesting ways to deal with the concept of half-Castes, and the setting was nonetheless better off as a whole without them.
So the big issue with Half-Castes, or 2E-style Godbloods, is that they were primarily tied to being someone's offspring - without that actually being tied into the setting.
The one Exalt-type that is about being someone's offspring - Dragonbloods - does a lot with that. It's supported by the whole of the Realm, the Scarlet Dynasty, and the Great Houses. Even if you play an Outcaste, someone who just randomly exalted due to some distant ancestry, that stuff still matters (unless it's not featured in your game, that's always an option).
This is why, I think, is why so many 2E fans got brainworms about Half-Castes and Godblooded. They feel like a way to break the setting, because the setting doesn't account for them. There's no fiction - or barely any - that talks about what their lives are like, how society treats them, what their relationship with each other and other supernatural beings are.
They were thus open season for people who went "aha, I can just have lots of Half-Caste/Godblood children to create an army without consequences" because they can paint whatever they want on that blank canvas. And people who don't want that - including because they care about the setting not getting overly disrupted - have a choice between creating complex reasons why that won't work as expected (similar in scope to Dragonblood Society, so quite big), or just ignoring that.
And I think a lot of that gets projected onto Exigents.
But not only are Exigents not the Godblood-Exalted (they aren't the children of gods), they Do have all of the above ties into the setting.
This is such a bizarre take to me. The setting is not zero sum. Solars who side with the Yozis still exist. My last game featured not one, but two Sidereals who were primarily concerned with Help and the Demons over Creation because they were born there! The existence of Thousand Venoms Mistress does not mean you can no longer make a Wood Aspect master of poisons who can rival her ability.
This attitude that the existing playspace has to be "protected" from encroachment and new additions to the setting can only come at the expanse of the already established splats, so the setting must stay in a holding pattern because anything new is actually making "your" splat less cool, is I think rooted in the incredibly toxic and competitive attitudes of the old forums and doesn't reflect how the game is written in practice.
Like... The Sovereigns are a princely dynasty of Terrestrial Exalts who fight a game of deadly court politics among themselves, and my personal experience is that this surface similarity to Dynasts actually enhances both splats because of all the ways in which they're actually deeply, deeply different, so having DB and Sovereign characters interact brings out to the fore all these nuances and irreconcilable differences between them (usually leading into one or both sides wanting to rip the other's head off on sheer outrage).
I'll simply say that I'm coming from a position of many, many years of being a writer and that sometimes less is more, and more restrictions can actually improve settings. Sometimes it's necessary to cut cool ideas because they just take away from the core of the story or the setting.
I also think you jump to a lot of unwarranted conclusions and think you're being a wee bit toxic and aggressive yourself (What's "my splat"? What old forums? What cliches did I believe about Exigents?). I could get into the nitty gritty of how these examples do indeed tread on the toes of previous splats but I doubt it would convince you, and that's fine. It's a game, you're allowed to disagree on how its setting ought to be structured.
I would also note that your assumption that "no new Exalt types" equals "setting is in a holding pattern" is an assumption you probably ought to examine more closely.
And I think a lot of that gets projected onto Exigents.
But not only are Exigents not the Godblood-Exalted (they aren't the children of gods), they Do have all of the above ties into the setting.
To be clear, I brought up half-Castes as genuinely nothing more than "there are cool elements and cool stories about them, but the setting is better off without them nonetheless". I didn't intend any deeper comparison than that. And I like Godblooded fine aside from their dubious balance in 2e and feel they fit in the setting quite well.
The most compelling difference between Exigents and god-blooded, for me at least, is that god-blooded are typically born that way, which can really has an impact on the aesthetic and modus operendi of the characters involved.
I'll simply say that I'm coming from a position of many, many years of being a writer and that sometimes less is more, and more restrictions can actually improve settings. Sometimes it's necessary to cut cool ideas because they just take away from the core of the story or the setting.
That's cool! So am I! I write for Exalted, actually. Sometimes different writers have different perspectives on the craft and how broad lessons are best applied in specific instances. We clearly come from different backgrounds and that leads us to different reads on what the setting needs and what works best for it.
I also think you jump to a lot of unwarranted conclusions and think you're being a wee bit toxic and aggressive yourself (What's "my splat"? What old forums? What cliches did I believe about Exigents?). I could get into the nitty gritty of how these examples do indeed tread on the toes of previous splats but I doubt it would convince you, and that's fine. It's a game, you're allowed to disagree on how its setting ought to be structured.
I think you're over-reading into this - your posting earlier inspired me to post about patterns I've noticed over time, but except where I am quoting you directly I wasn't actually addressing you specifically, just things I've noticed in discussions with older players in general. Don't feel singled out.
I hope you harbour no sour feelings over this specific interaction, I didn't expect to be called "toxic" for musing about generalities.
