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General Exalted Thread

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Demons are driven by alien urges, raised in violently cruel environments, and used as servants to powerful masters. They're certainly not inherently evil or lacking in free will.
 
Half Moon said:
Demons are driven by alien urges, raised in violently cruel environments, and used as servants to powerful masters. They're certainly not inherently evil or lacking in free will.
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Blood Apes are one of the best examples of this, they don't need death. They need a fight, it's in their nature to fight. But they don't need to kill to fight.
 
Blood Apes do tend to be somewhat anathematic to humans. (Whether that makes them evil is another question). But there are demons that just play music, or drink alcohol, or create life from flesh, and they're only rarely acting on anyone else's behalf except the sorcerer that summoned them.
 
gale said:
(You did come off as if I was lying which was my main issue. )
I honestly disagree outright tho, demons have to have free will for a list of reasons. Some are still agents of their masters first and everything else second. But that is an explicitly their choice. Demons have the free will to choose, that is possible even without that charm. That charm does nothing to the demon but it says, it doesn't make them consent or give them the ability to consent. Also, demon cults can be a lot of things, some of them even good things. But just saying that are all evil seems reductive given how much demons can do and be. Also, my core idea was worship to make use of them. But my main point here, and something your argument agrees on even if you don't realize it. A demon has to consent, something that they wouldn't be able to do if they were always gents of their masters first.
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I do not think that all demons are evil, I do not think the Yozis themselves are all evil, though the ED certainly is. I do think that all demons are all alien and dangerous for mortals to deal with. Even those cults that start out doing good things degenerate because they come under the sway of beings that don't really understand how humans word whether they would like to or not and so they end up breaking a lot of humans.

A good Yozis cult is like a Repentant Abyssal, it can happen, but you really should not count on it IMO.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not think that all demons are evil, I do not think the Yozis themselves are all evil, though the ED certainly is. I do think that all demons are all alien and dangerous for mortals to deal with. Even those cults that start out doing good things degenerate because they come under the sway of beings that don't really understand how humans word whether they would like to or not and so they end up breaking a lot of humans.

A good Yozis cult is like a Repentant Abyssal, it can happen, but you really should not count on it IMO.
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That fits more for the thread, and under an Exalted it's very easy to have not a yozi cult as you keep saying. Which is something I have said more then once I didn't want. I said demon cult, one mainly for helping demons regain their forms.

DragonParadox said:
Yeah and some of those music players are going to play until the humans die dancing and not even understand why that is a problem
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Yes because they do not understand humans, this is the point in 2e. Demons do not understand human biology half the time. They don't know humans have needs. They can be taught rather explicitly.
 
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gale said:
That fits more for the thread, and under an Exalted it's very easy to have not a yozi cult as you keep saying. Which is something I have said more then once I didn't want. I said demon cult, one mainly for helping demons regain their forms.


Yes because they do not understand humans, this is the point in 2e. Demons do not understand human biology half the time. They don't know humans have needs. They can be taught rather explicitly.
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The thing is if you are directing faith at a demon, especially a Second Circle, it is going to talk about what it is to the morals you persuaded to worship it Humans want to know the nature of their gods. This is that Immaculate thing again, regulating Faith, but without the manpower the Immaculates have and with the added issue that the demon might kill its worshipers on accident
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is if you are directing faith at a demon, especially a Second Circle, it is going to talk about what it is to the morals you persuaded to worship it Humans want to know the nature of their gods. This is that Immaculate thing again, regulating Faith, but without the manpower the Immaculates have and with the added issue that the demon might kill its worshipers on accident
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Let us take this back the to thread given if we are going to talk about that aspect. Mainly because it involved aspects of it. Mainly your point here fails falt to me given that is even more reason to have peity not be our lowest stat.
 
gale said:
Let us take this back the to thread given if we are going to talk about that aspect. Mainly because it involved aspects of it. Mainly your point here fails falt to me given that is even more reason to have peity not be our lowest stat.
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Sure, do you want to quote all the stuff on here for the thread? Because otherwise a people reading through are going to be confused.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yeah and some of those music players are going to play until the humans die dancing and not even understand why that is a problem
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Is that worse than some humans summoning demons, using them for dangerous tasks and not understanding why that is a problem? I mean, I think both of these things are pretty bad, but I don't think that tendency to look at the world through the lens of one's own desires and having difficulty understanding people with vastly different desires are particularly inhuman traits in themselves. I'm also sort of the opinion that while demons are alien they shouldn't be, like, completely alien. I mean, I think they should have more or less the same emotions as humans, even if the ways those emotions are expressed or mixed with other emotions, and even if things arousing fear or rage or happiness can be very different for demons and for humans. I want demons to be something I can use as characters when running a game, rather than just tools or obstacles, and they can't be completely alien for that to work. Besides, it's not like they're completely unrelated to Creation and its inhabitants. Same makers' handiwork, so to speak, should be at least somewhat recognizable in both thing of Hell and things of Creation.
 
Jarovan said:
Is that worse than some humans summoning demons, using them for dangerous tasks and not understanding why that is a problem? I mean, I think both of these things are pretty bad, but I don't think that tendency to look at the world through the lens of one's own desires and having difficulty understanding people with vastly different desires are particularly inhuman traits in themselves. I'm also sort of the opinion that while demons are alien they shouldn't be, like, completely alien. I mean, I think they should have more or less the same emotions as humans, even if the ways those emotions are expressed or mixed with other emotions, and even if things arousing fear or rage or happiness can be very different for demons and for humans. I want demons to be something I can use as characters when running a game, rather than just tools or obstacles, and they can't be completely alien for that to work. Besides, it's not like they're completely unrelated to Creation and its inhabitants. Same makers' handiwork, so to speak, should be at least somewhat recognizable in both thing of Hell and things of Creation.
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This was in the context of a quest where the question is 'do we allow out populace to worship demons for the benefits'. It is not really a question of fault, but more of the general danger of allowing random morals near the shards of the defeated Primordials.
 
DragonParadox said:
This was in the context of a quest where the question is 'do we allow out populace to worship demons for the benefits'. It is not really a question of fault, but more of the general danger of allowing random morals near the shards of the defeated Primordials.
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Fair enough. A lot of demons are definitely dangerous, regardless of arguments about their morality.
 
Kymme said:
Yeah, I agree. Of course any attempt to help another person is going to be some kind of imposition, because people are different from one another.
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Okay, but most people you help are, like, human-shaped with human minds and assumptions. Demons aren't. It's different, that's my whole point.
Even if demonkind, even if the Yozis, aren't human, they are people. It seems to be 3e's standpoint, moreso than any edition of Exalted before, that nothing in the setting, no person or faction or race, should be carelessly dehumanized.
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I don't think I've said anything to imply demons aren't people. They're just not human people. I'm not "carelessly dehumanizing" anything or anyone, this is a really weird response to post.

Edit: I also have nothing to do with the opinions espoused by other people in this thread.
 
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gale said:
Demons don't even know how to help people. They don't even understand human biology half of the time or humans have needs.They need to be taught.
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Is it always possible to do that teaching? Hopping Puppeteers don't leave babies on high places out of malice. They love babies. It's just that they are very absent minded.

That seems less like a problem to be addressed with education and more with a broader accommodation of never leaving them around babies unsupervised.
 
Exthalion said:
Is it always possible to do that teaching? Hopping Puppeteers don't leave babies on high places out of malice. They love babies. It's just that they are very absent minded.

That seems less like a problem to be addressed with education and more with a broader accommodation of never leaving them around babies unsupervised.
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I mean, it can easily be both depending on the demon in question. Different demons of the same species still have personalities.
 
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gale said:
Blood Apes are one of the best examples of this, they don't need death. They need a fight, it's in their nature to fight. But they don't need to kill to fight.
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"Motivation: To battle and kill and consume the blood of their enemies."
Does actually say "kill" right in there specifically, it's not just implied by "battle."
 
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