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General Exalted Thread

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Kaiya said:
Yeah, you're running into the core tradeoff Essence chooses to make compared to Ex3, bringing it back in mechanically'll just make Essence worse at being Essence. Write whatever flavor you want into your Charms as you play, so they feel right for you, IMO. Heck, in the Essence game I'm in, my Solar uses Glorious Solar Arsenal, but has it congeal her anima over her skin into tan ultrahard durability instead of summoning magic armor, because I wanted the aesthetics of Diamond Body Prana despite the differences between "Summon armor" and "make skin into armor" being below the resolution of XS.
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I guess I just don't see why this makes Essence worse? It's not increasing the word count, and modes are almost universally better anyway.

You could say it gives players less freedom, but reading through essence the impression I got was that it's primary goal was simplification, not freedom of play
 
I feel like if someone has enough of a track record of espousing strong opinions on material they have either not internalised or like, often seemingly read at all that it's become a noticeable fixture of the thread, at some point comments to the effect of "please read the book" are not unwarranted.
 
BossFight said:
Yeah, but there are certain charms which are bread and butter enough you *want* every exalt to have them (like righteous lion defense) but which aesthetically it would be nice to have a little more differentiation.

Because, TBC, my biggest complaint with the Universal charms is that, on an aesthetic/thematic level they make each Exalt feel less unique.

And I get why they exist. A lot of charms were *already* basically the same across multiple exalts. You don't need to write out how the Ox Body equivalent works for every exalt, that just adds a ton of work for no real benefit.

But at the same time, one of the things I like about exalted is how each exalts charms feels unique. Because the makeup of an exalts charms defines the thematics of the splat.

And I think that forcing modes allows you to maintain that thematic difference while still keeping the benefits of universal charms
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Forcing limiting modes on Universal Charms is unnecessary to add more distinctiveness in play, and is in fact counter-productive. Universal Charms are, by intent, the baseline "a PC Exalt should be able to be this heroic at this task" competency, and they grant that. Something like All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight means that any PC who specializes in being able to see dematerialized spirits and various Essence flows can do so. Every PC can make significant use of this. The fact that a Solar can also use Eye of the Unconquered Sun is an expansion that makes this more appealing. Look at how much the Solar can see! But don't worry, they're not the only cool ones: Getimians can use Forgotten World Echoes to get more information from things that interact with fate. Both the Solar and the Getimian have reasons why they'd be excited to get this Charm, and their modes give them more that others could get. This is how thematic differences are expressed in Essence. Solars get more modes than almost all others, and a lot of their modes are extremely good: very powerful, very direct.

On the other hand, if we had a mode for All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight that was "Making-Up-For-Poor-Eyesight Grasping Mudra (mode for the Exigent of the God of Making Clear Examples): You can only feel Essence flows with your fingertips, instead of seeing them, and roll 1 fewer dice when trying to understand spirit magics and sorcerous workings", then the player looking at this has less reason to pick this Charm up than literally any other PC doing so. They get less out of doing so than another would. They have a strong disincentive to use any Universal Charm that has a mostly or wholly limiting mode, instead of picking ones that have a positive mode or no additional mode at all.

Additional thematics are, like Chehrazad and Kaiya point out, very easily added in by the specific table or ST. My experience echoes that of both of these women. This is easy and intuitive and good.

BossFight said:
I guess I just don't see why this makes Essence worse? It's not increasing the word count, and modes are almost universally better anyway.

You could say it gives players less freedom, but reading through essence the impression I got was that it's primary goal was simplification, not freedom of play
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There are 45 unique playable Exalt types available in the Essence corebook, counting each caste/aspect separately. With their different advantages and anima effects and Exalt milestones, they already have a lot more room where they feel distinct in practice than I would have expected that they would on just reading the book. That's my practical experience after playing and running rather a lot of Essence. There's a lot of freedom in play. Trying to get overly granular with the distinctions in Charms makes things more complicated and runs several risks, and does not open additional options for play.

Essence is a lot simpler than any edition of Exalted before. To its detriment, in some cases! I'm quite happy to explain my view on things, and I will not judge any sort of question about it (rules, experiences, thoughts about houserules, issues that have arisen in play, whatever); I firmly believe that the dumbest questions are the ones that don't get asked, and have endeavored to give you good responses to your various questions, because sharing views is how all our experiences can be improved. But I would like to gently encourage you to phrase things in a manner that's more trying to understand things as they are, because otherwise it certainly can come across like you're incredibly self-assured about how things are or should be while simultaneously just being unaware of how it has actually been experienced by those of us who have put a great deal of time into internalizing the content of the books and playing with the rules.
 
Alright, without further ado, I present the first draft of the charmless design seed for:

The Swarm-Born, Chosen of the Myrmidon Horde

docs.google.com

Apocryphal Seed: The Swarm-Born, Chosen of the Myrmidon Horde v1

Apocryphal Seed: The Swarm-Born, Chosen of the Myrmidon Horde “The tiny ant, a creature of great industry, drags with its mouth whatever it can, and adds it to the heap which she is piling up, not unaware nor careless of the future.” - from Satires, by Quintus Horatio Flaccus A mortal hero slum...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Feedback is welcome
 
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Gazetteer said:
I feel like if someone has enough of a track record of espousing strong opinions on material they have either not internalised or like, often seemingly read at all that it's become a noticeable fixture of the thread, at some point comments to the effect of "please read the book" are not unwarranted.
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Good thing I read it thrice.

And like... Why would you do this? I just asked someone not to be passive aggressive, and your response was to be passive aggressive in the exact same way? Like what is the point of this? To hurt my feelings? Congratulations. Mission Accomplished!

VagueZ said:
Forcing limiting modes on Universal Charms is unnecessary to add more distinctiveness in play, and is in fact counter-productive. Universal Charms are, by intent, the baseline "a PC Exalt should be able to be this heroic at this task" competency, and they grant that. Something like All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight means that any PC who specializes in being able to see dematerialized spirits and various Essence flows can do so. Every PC can make significant use of this. The fact that a Solar can also use Eye of the Unconquered Sun is an expansion that makes this more appealing. Look at how much the Solar can see! But don't worry, they're not the only cool ones: Getimians can use Forgotten World Echoes to get more information from things that interact with fate. Both the Solar and the Getimian have reasons why they'd be excited to get this Charm, and their modes give them more that others could get. This is how thematic differences are expressed in Essence. Solars get more modes than almost all others, and a lot of their modes are extremely good: very powerful, very direct.

On the other hand, if we had a mode for All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight that was "Making-Up-For-Poor-Eyesight Grasping Mudra (mode for the Exigent of the God of Making Clear Examples): You can only feel Essence flows with your fingertips, instead of seeing them, and roll 1 fewer dice when trying to understand spirit magics and sorcerous workings", then the player looking at this has less reason to pick this Charm up than literally any other PC doing so. They get less out of doing so than another would. They have a strong disincentive to use any Universal Charm that has a mostly or wholly limiting mode, instead of picking ones that have a positive mode or no additional mode at all.

Additional thematics are, like Chehrazad and Kaiya point out, very easily added in by the specific table or ST. My experience echoes that of both of these women. This is easy and intuitive and good.



There are 45 unique playable Exalt types available in the Essence corebook, counting each caste/aspect separately. With their different advantages and anima effects and Exalt milestones, they already have a lot more room where they feel distinct in practice than I would have expected that they would on just reading the book. That's my practical experience after playing and running rather a lot of Essence. There's a lot of freedom in play. Trying to get overly granular with the distinctions in Charms makes things more complicated and runs several risks, and does not open additional options for play.

Essence is a lot simpler than any edition of Exalted before. To its detriment, in some cases! I'm quite happy to explain my view on things, and I will not judge any sort of question about it (rules, experiences, thoughts about houserules, issues that have arisen in play, whatever); I firmly believe that the dumbest questions are the ones that don't get asked, and have endeavored to give you good responses to your various questions, because sharing views is how all our experiences can be improved. But I would like to gently encourage you to phrase things in a manner that's more trying to understand things as they are, because otherwise it certainly can come across like you're incredibly self-assured about how things are or should be while simultaneously just being unaware of how it has actually been experienced by those of us who have put a great deal of time into internalizing the content of the books and playing with the rules.
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So there are two points here, so I'll reply separately:

1. I notice you're assuming that making modes *required* means making them *worse*. Which is a misrepresentation of my argument. Rather, I am arguing that if the modes are always required, you open up the space for modes to make thematic statements about how the splat differs from the baseline.

Using All Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight as an example we have the base charm who's effect boils down to "can see spirits".

The solar mode for this is "bonus to seeing through illusions and deceptions".

The infernal mode is... Nothing. They don't get one.

Now, I'm a fan of 2e Infernals. So immediately when I see AESS I think "oh, Infernals had one of these!".

So I give them a mode called "Essence Disecting Touch". This mode let's them sense spirits by touch, and also lets them "feel" anything within essence yards with invisible telekinetic hands. This "touch" is explicitly as good as sight. So basically it's a slight upgrade to AESS which let's you see through walls/around corners/etc**

Except now we have this weird situation where Infernals can choose to see *or* touch spirits because they can choose to use the mode or not.

So, since modes are almost universally upgrades anyway, why not just make them required when you use the charm for the sake of thematic consistency?

2.This I just do not understand at all. I offered the most mild critical of the game line. I didn't say my option was better. I didn't say the game made a bad decision. I didn't say the game sucked. I said "I *feel* this is a missed opportunity". Like, I literally used an "I feel" statement. I really don't know how I'm expected to engage with the game is the mildest criticism comes across as arrogance?

*And before you ask, an exalt having an alternative *rather* than an upgrade should.not be a problem as not every exalt gets a mode for every charm.
** This is an off the cuff example created for this discussion and not a serious attempt at creating a mode.
 
BossFight said:
Seriously, can you not? This is the second time in a row I've said something in this forum, and rather than engage with any of my points you've done this condescending bullshit sniping.

I can't block you because you're an administrator, but if you're not going to actually engage with my points like a human being then just don't fucking talk to me.
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Last time you felt I was condescending, you leapt to insulting me directly and I apologized for being sarcastic. So I don't really feel like respecting this request. I have not done what you are accusing me of, and it is not my responsibility that you feel I have. Normally I would be more conciliatory, but I have sort of stared at this for hours, confused about what to say. So I really don't feel up to that spirit.

EDIT: I added my actual commentary on your idea in another post earlier, which I will reiterate here: I don't think your idea will make Essence worse, but I think it seems like something best decided upon by a player and their ST at the table to customize or personalize their character, no different from personal modes.
 
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BossFight said:
And like... Why would you do this? I just asked someone not to be passive aggressive, and your response was to be passive aggressive in the exact same way? Like what is the point of this? To hurt my feelings? Congratulations. Mission Accomplished!
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I feel that it's important to consider that multiple people alluding to being frustrated with the same pattern of behaviour from you may simply be finding this pattern of behaviour frustrating. Like, "it seems like you come in hot with opinions or suggested rules changes when you have a poor grasp of the material or are outright operating on secondhand information" is not passive aggression, it's not being indirect, it's not a secret ploy to hurt your feelings. It's just a very straightforward statement of feeling, and ideally the goal would be for you to approach these conversations differently rather than for you to feel bad. It is a little bit startling to me that you're taking this as such a personal attack.

If you read through Essence that many times and feel like you have a strong grasp of the material, actually, I can apologise for being mistaken in this instance, but this is not the first time you have posted in this thread, and that must unavoidably colour all our interactions.
 
Gazetteer said:
I feel that it's important to consider that multiple people alluding to being frustrated with the same pattern of behaviour from you may simply be finding this pattern of behaviour frustrating. Like, "it seems like you come in hot with opinions or suggested rules changes when you have a poor grasp of the material or are outright operating on secondhand information" is not passive aggression, it's not being indirect, it's not a secret ploy to hurt your feelings. It's just a very straightforward statement of feeling, and ideally the goal would be for you to approach these conversations differently rather than for you to feel bad. It is a little bit startling to me that you're taking this as such a personal attack.

If you read through Essence that many times and feel like you have a strong grasp of the material, actually, I can apologise for being mistaken in this instance, but this is not the first time you have posted in this thread, and that must unavoidably colour all our interactions.
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Ah yes the extremely hot take of *checks notes* "I feel this is a missed opportunity".
 
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Instead, have a demon.

I used them in a combat against one of @Kaiya's characters - she ended up using a Feat of Strength to tear down a wall to trap the bastards on the ground and stop them jumping around. And then beat them to death, as she does.


Fustnayl, the Fume-Mouthed Mantis
Progeny of the Assayer of Men
Demon of the First Circle

It is the fustnyal that Tereki sends into the Malfean cities to capture new specimens for her dark research, and it is the fustnyal who raise their voices in beautiful song as they patrol her gaols as her wardens. These demons are small-minded, obedient to a fault, and overly literal with no understanding of metaphor; so bloody-minded that sometimes through sheer unimaginative stupidity they fail to fall for clever deceptions. The only creative impulse within them is their talent for music. In that, they are exactly as their creator intended.

Taking the form of a stone-carapaced mantis-man with arms that can extend great distances, the fustnyal skitter over the surfaces of Tereki's laboratories and clatter their claws against the jail bars. They get their name from the ice-cold bile that fills their abdomens. When spat and exposed to the air, the bile quickly sublimates into thick caustic clouds of white-grey fumes which burn the eyes and lungs. They use this to blind and obstruct their targets, whether bringing them in or preventing them from escaping.

Sorcerers put the fustnyal to the same purpose as their creator. These demons are more than content clinging to the outside of a sorcerer's tower, watching for months or even years for an intruder. Other sorcerers call on them for the purpose of war, using them to spew out clouds of caustic fumes that can force ill-trained bands of soldiers to retreat with running eyes. Exorcists who would go against such demonologists make use of the fact that acid burns the fustnyal terribly, and they flee the scent of fuming agua regia. These demons can escape hell when a gargoyle falls from a tower due to long weathered erosion, the fustnyal taking the place of the fallen masonry.

Fustnyal, the Fume-Mouthed Mantises​
Toxic Loyal Muscle, Resisting Poison​
9
Noticing Threats, Perfect Pitch​
6
Creative Thinking​
2
Resolve3Health7Hardness4
Essence2Defence4Soak4
Qualities:
  • Smoke Spit: Accuracy [1], Damage [1], Overwhelming [1], Range Med, Thrown (Attacking a target in a closer Range band grants three bonus to the Accuracy rating for the attack.)
  • Extending Stone Claws: Accuracy [0], Damage [1], Defence +1, Reaching (ignores advantages of mounted combats/enormous size), Paired (Successful withering attacks generate 1 additional Power)
  • Choking Caustic Spit: Once per scene, spend 1 mote to fill a range band up to Medium range away with a caustic cloud. This is an environmental hazard with Damage 1/round, Duration 3 rounds, Difficulty 3. Non-Fustnyal characters in the affected range band suffer +3 difficulty to all vision-based rolls from the thick, caustic fumes that burn the eyes. The demon may reflexively activate this quality upon its death if slain with a weapon that would puncture its carapace.
  • Scuttling Wardens: When in dense terrain, a fustnyal can Dash reflexively if its movement would change its elevation, as it springs from object to object with the aid of its extending arms.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Instead, have a demon.

I used them in a combat against one of @Kaiya's characters - she ended up using a Feat of Strength to tear down a wall to trap the bastards on the ground and stop them jumping around. And then beat them to death, as she does.


Fustnayl, the Fume-Mouthed Mantis
Progeny of the Assayer of Men
Demon of the First Circle

It is the fustnyal that Tereki sends into the Malfean cities to capture new specimens for her dark research, and it is the fustnyal who raise their voices in beautiful song as they patrol her gaols as her wardens. These demons are small-minded, obedient to a fault, and overly literal with no understanding of metaphor; so bloody-minded that sometimes through sheer unimaginative stupidity they fail to fall for clever deceptions. The only creative impulse within them is their talent for music. In that, they are exactly as their creator intended.

Taking the form of a stone-carapaced mantis-man with arms that can extend great distances, the fustnyal skitter over the surfaces of Tereki's laboratories and clatter their claws against the jail bars. They get their name from the ice-cold bile that fills their abdomens. When spat and exposed to the air, the bile quickly sublimates into thick caustic clouds of white-grey fumes which burn the eyes and lungs. They use this to blind and obstruct their targets, whether bringing them in or preventing them from escaping.

Sorcerers put the fustnyal to the same purpose as their creator. These demons are more than content clinging to the outside of a sorcerer's tower, watching for months or even years for an intruder. Other sorcerers call on them for the purpose of war, using them to spew out clouds of caustic fumes that can force ill-trained bands of soldiers to retreat with running eyes. Exorcists who would go against such demonologists make use of the fact that acid burns the fustnyal terribly, and they flee the scent of fuming agua regia. These demons can escape hell when a gargoyle falls from a tower due to long weathered erosion, the fustnyal taking the place of the fallen masonry.

Fustnyal, the Fume-Mouthed Mantises​
Toxic Loyal Muscle, Resisting Poison​
9
Noticing Threats, Perfect Pitch​
6
Creative Thinking​
2
Resolve3Health7Hardness4
Essence2Defence4Soak4
Qualities:
  • Smoke Spit: Accuracy [1], Damage [1], Overwhelming [1], Range Med, Thrown (Attacking a target in a closer Range band grants three bonus to the Accuracy rating for the attack.)
  • Extending Stone Claws: Accuracy [0], Damage [1], Defence +1, Reaching (ignores advantages of mounted combats/enormous size), Paired (Successful withering attacks generate 1 additional Power)
  • Choking Caustic Spit: Once per scene, spend 1 mote to fill a range band up to Medium range away with a caustic cloud. This is an environmental hazard with Damage 1/round, Duration 3 rounds, Difficulty 3. Non-Fustnyal characters in the affected range band suffer +3 difficulty to all vision-based rolls from the thick, caustic fumes that burn the eyes. The demon may reflexively activate this quality upon its death if slain with a weapon that would puncture its carapace.
  • Scuttling Wardens: When in dense terrain, a fustnyal can Dash reflexively if its movement would change its elevation, as it springs from object to object with the aid of its extending arms.
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"My skin is like tenfold shields, my teeth crush stone, my fists crush bone, my kick is a thunderbolt, my charge a hurricane, my grapple death!"
-Snowfall Probably.
 
BossFight said:
So I give them a mode called "Essence Disecting Touch". This mode let's them sense spirits by touch, and also lets them "feel" anything within essence yards with invisible telekinetic hands. This "touch" is explicitly as good as sight. So basically it's a slight upgrade to AESS which let's you see through walls/around corners/etc**

Except now we have this weird situation where Infernals can choose to see *or* touch spirits because they can choose to use the mode or not.

So, since modes are almost universally upgrades anyway, why not just make them required when you use the charm for the sake of thematic consistency?
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I feel like this issue could be resolved if "Essence-Dissecting Touch" included the words "additionally" and "may also", like many of the modes in the book do.

But really, isn't this kind of a non-issue, when talking about thematic consistency? If there's no real point to preventing it, then why prevent it?

edit: Apologies, I was on an older tab and I didn't realize we'd moved past the whole topic.
 
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Chehrazad said:
frankly, rude and quite mean of her
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hey, if they didn't wanna be murdered by someone impossibly more powerful than themselves, the demon kings who control their lives shouldn't have lost a war five thousand years ago whose surrender terms included their subjects being slaves to the victors and their successors forever and ever
 
Gazetteer said:
I feel like if someone has enough of a track record of espousing strong opinions on material they have either not internalised or like, often seemingly read at all that it's become a noticeable fixture of the thread, at some point comments to the effect of "please read the book" are not unwarranted.
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Except when it comes to the use of Triremes

Fuck Triremes
 
Critian Caceorte said:
Agreed, Galleons all the way. Use the wind like it should be instead of dozens of men.
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It's not even that.

Triremes are historically death traps with 30% casualties in peace time. I'd rather some nice genre neutral Panoksen or Geobukseon if they don't want to give off Age of Sail vibe vessels.

mothematics said:
compromise: triremes in the dreaming sea
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Triremes in the same area as Ysyr is an... interesting choice ?
 
Sucal said:
It's not even that.

Triremes are historically death traps with 30% casualties in peace time. I'd rather some nice genre neutral Panoksen or Geobukseon if they don't want to give off Age of Sail vibe vessels.
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This is an untrue historical misconception based on some extremely dubious numbers that used to be thrown around a lot in these threads. Triremes were highly effective ships for their time, and they were no more death traps than any other pieces of wood humans put to sea with men in them.
 
What year is it that people are actually trying to reboot Trireme Discourse like a bad nostalgia exploitation revival
 
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