General Exalted Thread
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I was a little off with the Confederacy invocation but now I would like to return to the thread of several posts ago
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mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm ngl I just got really really confused for a second
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Ultimately, it's not even about whether portrayals of Empire and imperialists are sympathetic. That's a red herring. We're talking about fictional characters here; they don't need to be sympathetic, they need to be interesting. Anybody who's familiar with the phrase 'I want to study him like a bug' on the internet should know that characters can be completely unsympathetic, profoundly fucked up, and still enthralling to analyse, write stories about, and consume media about.
Hannibal Lector is not a popular character because he provokes ardent defense of his eroticised cannibalism from people insisting I Can Fix Him, He Was Sad One Time, and Darth Vader did not become a fictional juggernaut because of his backstory as Anakin Skywalker, or his deathbed reconciliation with Luke; he got those reveals because the costume design, voice work, and direction that went into portraying him on the silver screen succeeded in giving him the presence and dramatic energy to warrant further narrative exploration.
Not all fiction is or should be didactic. When discussing characters rather than people, awful but interesting is better than righteous but boring.
I have very little interest in fiction exploring Empire and imperialists that seeks to be sympathetic to them, but Imperialism is a seductive philosophy that has had a profound impact on world history, and because of that I think it is both important and engaging to explore why. Why does the Realm act as it does, why do people (citizens and foreigners) believe in its cause, why do they view the world the way they do, why do they... buy into the hype, I suppose.
A Memory Called Empire is a fascinating read not because it is sympathetic to the empire of Teixcalaan, but because it is empathetic; it seeks to understand their views, their way of looking at the world, and it does so from the perspective of Mahit Dzmare, a foreigner to that empire navigating her loyalty and love of the home which sits (and would fiercely like to stay) outside the empire, and the immense pull that Teixcalaan's cultural and political gravity well has exerted on her, her interests, her ways of thinking, and her sense of self.
Speaking as somebody who grew up outside of the USA, yet bombarded by the cultural dominance, perhaps hegemony, of the US through outlets like Hollywood, to the point that I've sometimes known more about US political developments than those of my own home, that's a pretty interesting and important topic to read about!
Hannibal Lector is not a popular character because he provokes ardent defense of his eroticised cannibalism from people insisting I Can Fix Him, He Was Sad One Time, and Darth Vader did not become a fictional juggernaut because of his backstory as Anakin Skywalker, or his deathbed reconciliation with Luke; he got those reveals because the costume design, voice work, and direction that went into portraying him on the silver screen succeeded in giving him the presence and dramatic energy to warrant further narrative exploration.
Not all fiction is or should be didactic. When discussing characters rather than people, awful but interesting is better than righteous but boring.
I have very little interest in fiction exploring Empire and imperialists that seeks to be sympathetic to them, but Imperialism is a seductive philosophy that has had a profound impact on world history, and because of that I think it is both important and engaging to explore why. Why does the Realm act as it does, why do people (citizens and foreigners) believe in its cause, why do they view the world the way they do, why do they... buy into the hype, I suppose.
A Memory Called Empire is a fascinating read not because it is sympathetic to the empire of Teixcalaan, but because it is empathetic; it seeks to understand their views, their way of looking at the world, and it does so from the perspective of Mahit Dzmare, a foreigner to that empire navigating her loyalty and love of the home which sits (and would fiercely like to stay) outside the empire, and the immense pull that Teixcalaan's cultural and political gravity well has exerted on her, her interests, her ways of thinking, and her sense of self.
Speaking as somebody who grew up outside of the USA, yet bombarded by the cultural dominance, perhaps hegemony, of the US through outlets like Hollywood, to the point that I've sometimes known more about US political developments than those of my own home, that's a pretty interesting and important topic to read about!
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Manic Dogma
This, I can't deny.
- Location
- The far side of tired
- Pronouns
- Whatever
Speaking as someone with no personal interest in playing a Dynast, and who generally makes Intelligence 1 Dawn Castes with explicit beef with the Realm, I believe said empire not being a solid block of jellied evil from top to bottom makes my play experience more interesting and engaging. Can't have a heartfelt swordfight with my nemesis atop a crumbling pagoda during a thunderstorm where we exchange passionate speeches in defense of our ideals if my nemesis doesn't have any ideals more complicated than "hee hoo me like money and killing the poor."
HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
*shrug* I like Deebs. They're not my favorite splat but I've played them more in 3e and they work really well for what they are. Part of that IS the Realm, the dynasts, and the institutions built around them. I like that there is nuance and shades of grey, because it means you can have heroic people from a place that is otherwise horrible.
Mustache twirling monsters have their place in fiction (and we need more of them imo). So do Heroes Of Their Own Story. Just saying.
Unrelated: Am I the only person who set up an encounter thinking Flight of the Brilliant Raptor was an AOE spell only to realize that 'no it's single-target but also creates a huge bonfire' *after* casting it?
Mustache twirling monsters have their place in fiction (and we need more of them imo). So do Heroes Of Their Own Story. Just saying.
Unrelated: Am I the only person who set up an encounter thinking Flight of the Brilliant Raptor was an AOE spell only to realize that 'no it's single-target but also creates a huge bonfire' *after* casting it?
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Manic Dogma
This, I can't deny.
- Location
- The far side of tired
- Pronouns
- Whatever
Of course they do, that's what makes the principled nemesis figure working for them tragic. We could have been friends, he and I.
HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
The problem with doing that in Exalted is if I give the party's nemesis any kind of principles they immediately seduce him with like 40 successes.
All of my player's characters are hot.
Manic Dogma
This, I can't deny.
- Location
- The far side of tired
- Pronouns
- Whatever
Ah yes, the Chin-tilting Sword Technique. Fearsome indeed.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Why is that a problem?
"I can redeem them" is just as much a power fantasy as "I can kill them."
Queshire
Wants a pink flamingo for their lawn.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The way I tend to do imperialist characters is that they feel that ultimately getting their way is inevitable.
They won't call people primatives or use force to try and get control of that Jade mine. Why that would be simply uncouth! In fact they'll downright respect their foe by treating them as a player in the Great Game of Politics. However this view is backed by the knowledge that they have the bigger army, better martial artists, a school of magic they can tap if they need to, more Exalted per capita and the knowledge that even if they lose here it won't affect the Realm as a whole. They hold all the cards to start with and if their foe comes up with a surpise? Why, just learn from that and add it to your hand. It's simply how the game is played.
They won't call people primatives or use force to try and get control of that Jade mine. Why that would be simply uncouth! In fact they'll downright respect their foe by treating them as a player in the Great Game of Politics. However this view is backed by the knowledge that they have the bigger army, better martial artists, a school of magic they can tap if they need to, more Exalted per capita and the knowledge that even if they lose here it won't affect the Realm as a whole. They hold all the cards to start with and if their foe comes up with a surpise? Why, just learn from that and add it to your hand. It's simply how the game is played.
HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
Oh it's not a problem for the game or the players or even really me
It's a problem for introducing a principled villain character specifically if the character isn't a villain for more than one or two encounters
Oh I know. I went into one game as a Zenith with the goal of winning Mnemon's love. Made the ST laugh.
- Location
- United States
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I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't want to make anyone boring either, but also how on earth are you going to be able to present this sympathetic view of Dynasts to Solar and Lunar players? They're Anathema by default, they're not going to get any mercy from any halfway devout Immaculate. The best deal you could probably get from a legion commander as a known Solar or Lunar is, "I will spare your followers, as they have been mislead by you, and let them return to their lives if you lay down your arms and accept immediate execution by my hands. I assure you that I will end your life cleanly and with minimal pain." The best I really can do in 90% of scenarios involving them is to make one as bombastic as Colonel Kilgore, because its not going to be a Peleps clerk of the Thousand Scales who holds abolitionist views and helps the peasants of his community make ends meet that the players interact with, its going to be the Cathaks and the Mnemons and the Sesuses (Sesusi?) who took a post where the job description is, "Go abroad and kill an insane amount of people so that the order of the Scarlet Empress may prevail (and also you'll probably get a great retirement out of it)," and there's not many good dudes at all who take that position willingly.
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i mean, they just have to be baba yaga to do it
or go crazy(ier)
I kinda love Heart Eaters*, but I also kinda wish it was easier to use them without them being a threat you should be stabbing or arranging to be stabbed.
*I also wuv Umbrals in the edgiest portions of my heart. Dream Souled, I just really don't feel though.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
I dunno, maybe like, read up on the various other people who do this and look for pointers? @Gazetteer's Rising in the East is a good example off the top of my head, but there's plenty of others, this isn't some out-there idea or unbroken ground by any means. It's just not that hard.
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- Location
- some computer lab
I also love hearteater, the ones from Exigents, because they really make the Solars seem less shiny. If hearteater are canon, then the Solar Purge wasn't some unprecedented betrayal that ruined the perfect unity of the Exalted Host,the Solars are just mad that it was their turn to go to the infinite timeout zone.
- Location
- United States
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I'm not writing a book, though, I'm making a fun game for people to play, and I don't think any of my players would disagree that most Dynasts deserve nothing more than a Lunar doing sick martial arts combos on them until they die.
Queshire
Wants a pink flamingo for their lawn.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
"I've got a quarter of the men I'm supposed to, there's a bloody walking graveyard shambling in this direction and if the Jade from this mine stops flowing the wolves back home will use it as an example of our House's 'inepitude'. ....Dragons forgive me, but fine. I'll work with you damn Anathema. For now."
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Brief interruption of this very important discussion, but my Exalted quest which gets updated like once every year and is entirely about sympathetic but non-endorsing takes on people who are deeply aristocratic, has just gotten an update. Go check it out, all five of you who remember it. It's not dead, my update schedule is just psychotic.
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HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
Making characters in villainous factions look sympathetic or even heroic has been done, and done very well without ruining the faction's villany.
A few general possibilities off the top of my head:
-While immaculate principles guide the Realm as a whole this does not mean every dragon follows its strictures perfectly or even closely. You can probably worm your way into having a dynast let a solar or lunar go in exchange for a deal as you outlined, depending on the circumstances.
-Have a character who serves the Realm because he thinks it's genuinely the best option. Harder to square with an order for genocide, but an order to pacify a group of rebels? Doable. Or something else that doesn't require he go in guns blazing.
-Keep in mind that as far as Immaculates are concerned, Lunars and Solars are outright monsters that need to be stopped no matter what. This does not prevent said Immaculates from having their own guiding ideas and principles, and in fact does very little to prevent it. A very basic and quick idea: monk stops fighting Solar to throw himself in front of a ballista during an invasion, saving some rando.
-An easy way to build sympathy for a character in a system you find repugnant is to have them push back against its worst excesses. Have a dragon receive an order for a genocide, say 'no' and wipe his ass with the order.
-Introduce a third force (say a rampaging Behemoth) that forces one or both sides to stop hitting each other until the third is dealt with. I'm not a fan of this kind of thing, I think it's overdone, but it's an option and it's overdone partly because it works. (Queshire posted dialogue from this option while I was typing this, it works well)
-Have a dragon who's done atrocities in the name of empire, realizes he's the baddies, and sets out to put right what he can.
-Bit of a silly one here: Have your Dynast start flirting with one of the PCs before they realize they're a Solar/Lunar. People like people who like them
If the 2 dimensional bad guys is all your table needs, then that's all you'll need and you can stop there. No need to worry about sympathetic dynasts.
If you're worried the Realm will stop looking like the villain to your Solars and Lunars if you introduce dynasts who don't completely suck: Don't be. The Realm still wants you dead and have been convincing the entire world you deserve to die. The one Earth Aspect you have an understanding with isn't going to be able to stop the Wyld Hunt, even if he were willing.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Yes, this is why you read more than one thing and take pointers, which you can think about how to adapt to your game.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I can safely say that I've never run for a Lunar or Solar player who was upset or uninterested in their antagonists having interesting motivations or memorable characterisation, nor have I ever felt particularly constrained toward having only a small number of personalities or great houses represented in the Dragon-Blooded who they encounter in the threshold. Dynasts, and people within Immaculate-influenced areas in general, are raised to think of Anathema as like, horrible monsters who are genuinely a danger to both the Perfected Hierarchy and to the ordinary people ostensibly under Dragon-Blooded protection. Many of those Dragon-Blooded who are going to be most committed to hunting down Anathema are not just like, dicks murdering people for fun, they are quite possibly going to be people with strong moral or material reasons for doing this.
A fight with a moustache twirling villain where the players beat him up and move on is cathartic. It absolutely has its place. A fight involving a genuinely heroic monk, beloved of the common people, who views you as a monstrous threat to her way of life and to those she's defending, is memorable in part because the tragedy is fucking rad? Like, that's a cool story, it complicates what can be a simplistic narrative and creates great moments. I introduced an antagonist like that who was hearthmates with a more standard unsympathetic villain, and she fought one of the Lunar PCs to the death essentially to let him flee with his life from a fight he picked. The Lunar killed her, but like, also didn't feel fantastic about it, and buried her beneath earth and stone as a way to honour her last wishes and show respect to a worthy adversary.
The benefit of the Realm being a big, complicated, well-developed setting element is that there's just a lot you can do for both antagonists and player backgrounds, even if you're not playing a Dragon-Blooded game. "Anathema Dynast" or "ex Immaculate monk Anathema" are both classics for a reason! They're melodramatic and compelling, and they're backgrounds that benefit from being more nuanced than just "I used to be bad and now I'm good and I have no mixed feelings about the culture that raised me".
A fight with a moustache twirling villain where the players beat him up and move on is cathartic. It absolutely has its place. A fight involving a genuinely heroic monk, beloved of the common people, who views you as a monstrous threat to her way of life and to those she's defending, is memorable in part because the tragedy is fucking rad? Like, that's a cool story, it complicates what can be a simplistic narrative and creates great moments. I introduced an antagonist like that who was hearthmates with a more standard unsympathetic villain, and she fought one of the Lunar PCs to the death essentially to let him flee with his life from a fight he picked. The Lunar killed her, but like, also didn't feel fantastic about it, and buried her beneath earth and stone as a way to honour her last wishes and show respect to a worthy adversary.
The benefit of the Realm being a big, complicated, well-developed setting element is that there's just a lot you can do for both antagonists and player backgrounds, even if you're not playing a Dragon-Blooded game. "Anathema Dynast" or "ex Immaculate monk Anathema" are both classics for a reason! They're melodramatic and compelling, and they're backgrounds that benefit from being more nuanced than just "I used to be bad and now I'm good and I have no mixed feelings about the culture that raised me".
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- Location
- United States
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But what is more joyous than emulating Avatar 2 and using your whale familiar to rout the horrid Dynasts and their invading vessels? I honestly scratch my head at Exalted discussion because so much of it seems to be focused on making people play the way that suits their individual desires, when that seems futile to me and a little disrespectful of other people. But I just can't really envision any conversation with any Dynast that isn't already primed to defect to someone that's even mildly better as playing out as anything other than this.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFM2xZ7dytk
"Ah, there we go. I fixed your wheel on your wagon, Dragons be praised, and with time to spare! I can get back to negotiating my family's slave contracts with Cynis for the year without being too late."
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFM2xZ7dytk
"Ah, there we go. I fixed your wheel on your wagon, Dragons be praised, and with time to spare! I can get back to negotiating my family's slave contracts with Cynis for the year without being too late."
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- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, storytelling interesting and dynamic characters can be hard, but it's something you get better at over time with more experience. Imagination is a skill like anything else.
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You can just say that you don't like the way I run things without implying I'm inexperienced or unimaginative, Jesus fucking Christ.