So. Update: Had a long talk with the ST tonight and tried hashing some things out. Didn't really get a solution, but did elucidate some of his feelings on the matter.
Right then lets take a look.
Your ST said:
Ok - no experience debt limits. But that means the npc's will follow the lack of limits as well. [NATURE-REINFORCING ALLOCATION (Gregness' note: Some sort of Lunar equivalent to Beastial Traits Technique, not all that familiar with it)]
[imagine] Tyrant Lizards and Ice Weasels that have no limits with this charm. No image truly scary familiars like Animal Avatars and Godblooded Beasts?
[No limits] on mutations and the skills are open to the PC's level.
I am familiar with it. And I'm kinda boggling a bit.
First: those familiars are not canon. Animal Avatars would be Allies not familiar, and further more are gods an not applicable. Godblooded animals are murkier (I think the only way to access them is in Scroll of Heroes) but would maybe work? Depend on the Sts ruling on a lot of levels.
Second: those trait boosts aren't that bad. Sure they make your animal buddy more dangerous, (ice weasel of doooooooom), but its nowhere near the point that a well prepped group of mortal couldn't drop it (more dangerous animals would probably kill a few, if not all, but its a Lunar supercharged death machine).
Third: Mutations. They suck. Their certainly not going to break the setting, unless your taping into Scroll of Heroes Godblooded mutations (aka:
why would you do that, their broken as shit).
Forth: Scope. It affect one animal. And raises the traits at the rate of one per week. Note each point of mutation counts as a trait, so it takes a month and a half to instill an abomination. It is slow as hell, and best used for a lunar charged death familiar (or used on a rat to instill disease carrier, and then you send it to the Realm. Revel in your act of bio-terrorism.)
Your ST said:
[note: this actually came later in the conversation, but it's on this earlier topic so I'm putting it here]
Why are the Lunars not sending 50 soak eagles that blot out the sun and breath lighting out into Creation at a cruise speed of 200 mph every few months to destroy the Realms assets?
The mechanics support that ^
The fluff does not.
MoEP Lunars is terrible, news at eleven. Incidentally, this awesome, and totally happened. And then the elemental supersoliders murdered the fuck out of the eagles because thats what they do. And holy shit, where on earth is he getting those insanely inflated numbers. Mutations can literally not do what he is saying, and even if they could, remember the scope issue? Each one of those doom eagles is months of work, if not years, nevermind 200 miles/hour probably requires artifacts, which is even more cost down the drain.
So uh, yeah, the mechanics don't support it either.
Your ST said:
Mutations, also, they have like what 12 HL's? Mutate Stamina for more, giant for more - double all at the end.
Warhawks have 7HLs and Stamina 3 by default. Giant adds 5hls, and boosts Stamina to 6. Seven after the charm. The charm can add Stamina (not double) more -1hls, so 7. Grand total: 19hls (rather less then he was implying) and
three months of work. On the plus side: you have a bitching warhawk.
Your ST said:
Yurgan is a Dawn. He has 1000 Tiger Warriors. They are not maxed in everything and he's had 6 years.
Uh, going by the stat blocks in Compass North, he has. Well, maybe not archery, but I assumed he only used that on the archers, and not the melee guys presented.
Your ST said:
[A bunch of the sample Solars, (Dace, Panther, Etc) and their DV's of ~5. I made a comment about them not being optimized]
Optimized...I said I wanted an unoptimized game. I straight said min/maxers could find the door. People starting the game with 15 acc. and 10 D.V. is total bs. I don't kill people for nothing - I just want the Exalted PC's to reflect as the same thing, in the same ball park, as the other Exalts. They are supposed to be equal.
Not saying that's the case here.
Just, fuck, 5 DV is the norm.
Ahahahaha wtf. He's using
1e traits as the baseline for the setting? And yes, those are copy pasted out of the Caste Books. I also note that Harmonious 'I'm-actually-kinda-optimized' Jade is not mentioned. Tell him to look at the Alchemicals in Scroll of Exalts, particularly the ones known for being fighty. Its also worth noting I(A)M doubles your DV in effect.
Your ST said:
Optimized characters is why this game is broken under so many ST's. Why people say Dragon Bloods suck and are worthless.
Uh, no, they say that because their book said they were and was generally god awful. Optimization is more a facet of the game being broken enough that optimization is the main way to survive.
Your ST said:
People bend and stretch the mechanics rather than playing towards the fluff.
Other way round, really. Exalteds mechanics bend and strech the fluff to pieces. Most players I game with tend to try and keep them in line with the fluff.
Your ST said:
I've seen a lot of games where Infernals become Devil Tigers and then become Immortal Primordial things in like 1 year. Its stupid Gurren Lagann'esk stuff. I'm telling a Conan/Romance of the Three Kingdoms game. It's deeply sunk into Sword and Sandals style of play, grity and mysterious. The game is more like World of Darkness. A vampire is stronger than a man, most see them as beneith notice. Yet, the vampire still hides and knows several could slay them and have killed their kind. Exalted are far above men, but still have so many of mens weaknesses. It's more Vampire level than Superhero level (bullets plinking off the chest - immune to all harm...as many play Exalted. There are no stories like that in cannon)
Don't most vampire in the WoD ignore bullets after a certain point, unless the bullets are some how special? Cause I seem to recall that being a thing. (Its also a semi major thing in the Vampire mythos these days).
Really, your ST is missing a major point: Creation is a harsh gritty world. The Exalted (and the Solars in particular) are not really subjected to that. You tend to emphasis the harsh grittiness by what happens around them, not directly to them.
Your ST said:
Turning farmers, people with ribs showing, feet broken and bleeding from a thosand mile march where half their number died...their spirits strained to the limit. Turning them into the greatest warriors in Creation in a couple months is...insane. Immaculate Monks train decades of their lives using very developed systems with an impressive support structure.
So uh. Does your ST have Thousand Correct Actions? Because DBs have a Tiger Warrior equivalent charm in there. Also, Immaculate Monks mostly are pushing for enlightenment in 2e, which TWT does not grant.
Your ST said:
[another player chimed in here]
I think the point is that it doesn't thematically make sense for near-new Solars to roll up and stomp the forces of two great houses within a handful of months with their super army
If it was that easy, it'd have been done already
*Looks at the Bull of the North.*
You don't say.
Really, for someone that want to emphasize 'gritty realism' he seems to have a persistent issue with thinking things through to actually provide that. To do what he is describing, you need significant numbers (that he conveniently gave you, oops), logistics to support that army and time to train that massive army up. You can't actually hit full tiger warrior from a farmer template in a few months: you need around seven and a half, per unit. You also need to arm and armor, and all those other fun things. Also, War charms, because oboy can you bet the DBs will have them, and theirs are
really good.
Your ST said:
Lend some realism to it all.
Aw crap, your ST is one of those. The one that tend towards 'everything must be realistic' but don't pause to think their version of realism through, or to make sure what they claim matches up. And also tend towards the grit and doom scenarios.
Look, I like realism as much as the next guy, but I try to keep in mind reality is unrealistic, and Exalted is not terribly realistic to start with. See the heroin pissing dinosaurs (that subvert all expectations by actually being fairly serious). Its somewhat of a buzz word for 'ahaha, fuck you magic' with 'this is the way I think things
should be' as a major side note. Nevermind to actually get exalted to 'realistic', you'd need a new game system in effect.
Saying 'I want to get X more in line with Y' or 'X is based on Y' or 'yeah that totally happens, here's the wiki page' is awesome and fun. The fact Exalted like actually have consequences for it magic that mostly make sense logically is part of what people like about it. But 'realism' is largely a buzz word to hide behind and not explain
why you have issues with something at worst, and at best its so vague that it doesn't help.
Your ST said:
Demons are ok because they chafe at their collar. They have their own desires that will cause problems for the summoner. They have limit breaks. The world often turns on those that use them.
Wait and none of this applies to Tiger-Warriors??? The fuck? Demons are in a great many ways more loyal then Tiger-Warriors. I mean, Tiger-Warriors are by default not mystically totally loyal to you, and high Valor carries all kinds of problems. And your Anathema, the world already turns on you by default. A few demons doesn't change that!
(Also, demon limit is rather managable. Ask
@Aleph: you just need to summon more demons to fix your demon problems!)
Actually it's because Solar Medicine is one of the areas where solars have something of a niche - they have comprehensive charms to fix stuff. (unlike, say, Sidereals, who have no way to mitigate agg at all in their charmset.) Every splat can kill things. Most splats can run up walls or sabotage political movements. Actually just straight up fixing agg in the middle of a battle is pretty hard to do.
