I would literally no shit pay someone to rewrite the solar craft charm tree.

How I've changed it for my irl group that's new to exalted. Is that I allow evocation like effects from non artifact but very well made items. That caused a player to swap from a straight forward craft character into a more diverse character that does a lot of painting and art stuff that gets paired with linguistics.
 
Taking it from the White Wolf thread.


Ultimately, a proper Exalted crafting system, should probably depend extremely much on whether you go big on strategic actions or not, because in one where you don't, the power of the Crafter should probably be analogous to pulling X amounts of Cool Stuff out of their ass per story, rather than sitting down and crafting it ala Exaltted 3e. It'd be pretty hard to design a Charmtree around, but frankly, if there is anything that has made me lose sympathy to Craft in the context of Exalted, it is having to read how many times writers can cram effects that are all variations on "Craft Gooder" into the same Charm tree.

EDIT: Ultimately, this system would likely run the closest to actual mythological crafters; Weyland's flying machine that saves him from captivity and Daedalus' wings for one. The big problem is, that as you say, the entire archetype of a dedicated craftsman is just very gameified, and Exalted's notion that Magical Stuff were crafted as Magical Stuff rather than something that became Magical Stuff, leads it to actively require the craftsman in a way that is probably self-sabotaging.

Pretty much. It's amusing to see the Lunar Charmset desperately try to patch up these things, like the Wits charm that's just like "Yeah, you can pull out an already-crafted artefact you picked up somewhere that does what you need for the narrative".

But that would require Exalted to decide if it's results-based or process-based, and also what its abilities actually are. Are they processes, or are they jobs?
 
Pretty much. It's amusing to see the Lunar Charmset desperately try to patch up these things, like the Wits charm that's just like "Yeah, you can pull out an already-crafted artefact you picked up somewhere that does what you need for the narrative".

But that would require Exalted to decide if it's results-based or process-based, and also what its abilities actually are. Are they processes, or are they jobs?
integrity waves bleakly from around the corner
 
I would literally no shit pay someone to rewrite the solar craft charm tree.

Good news!

I did, ages ago. Terrestrial and Lunar Craft too. You can see my rewrite linked in the big repository I just posted.

Ultimately, a proper Exalted crafting system, should probably depend extremely much on whether you go big on strategic actions or not, because in one where you don't, the power of the Crafter should probably be analogous to pulling X amounts of Cool Stuff out of their ass per story, rather than sitting down and crafting it ala Exaltted 3e. It'd be pretty hard to design a Charmtree around, but frankly, if there is anything that has made me lose sympathy to Craft in the context of Exalted, it is having to read how many times writers can cram effects that are all variations on "Craft Gooder" into the same Charm tree.

EDIT: Ultimately, this system would likely run the closest to actual mythological crafters; Weyland's flying machine that saves him from captivity and Daedalus' wings for one. The big problem is, that as you say, the entire archetype of a dedicated craftsman is just very gameified, and Exalted's notion that Magical Stuff were crafted as Magical Stuff rather than something that became Magical Stuff, leads it to actively require the craftsman in a way that is probably self-sabotaging.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I did that rewrite.

In order to be worthwhile, Craft needs to focus less on being the artifactory and more on adventure-timescale stuff. Agatha Heterodyne produces surprisingly few real lasting Artifacts; the same should be true of most Craft Supernal Solars.
 
Taking it from the White Wolf thread.


Ultimately, a proper Exalted crafting system, should probably depend extremely much on whether you go big on strategic actions or not, because in one where you don't, the power of the Crafter should probably be analogous to pulling X amounts of Cool Stuff out of their ass per story, rather than sitting down and crafting it ala Exaltted 3e. It'd be pretty hard to design a Charmtree around, but frankly, if there is anything that has made me lose sympathy to Craft in the context of Exalted, it is having to read how many times writers can cram effects that are all variations on "Craft Gooder" into the same Charm tree.

EDIT: Ultimately, this system would likely run the closest to actual mythological crafters; Weyland's flying machine that saves him from captivity and Daedalus' wings for one. The big problem is, that as you say, the entire archetype of a dedicated craftsman is just very gameified, and Exalted's notion that Magical Stuff were crafted as Magical Stuff rather than something that became Magical Stuff, leads it to actively require the craftsman in a way that is probably self-sabotaging.
This is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I did that rewrite.

In order to be worthwhile, Craft needs to focus less on being the artifactory and more on adventure-timescale stuff. Agatha Heterodyne produces surprisingly few real lasting Artifacts; the same should be true of most Craft Supernal Solars.
I mean, I can't speak for all people-who-want-to-play Crafters, but... well, tbh most of what I want is the... the larger-scale, long-term stuff. Yes, go big on strategic actions; to me that's half the point of Exalted as a setting, you're god-kings not murderhobos[1]. Make a blinged out fortress base, a manse, a place of power. Be the sorcerer in his tower, that he raised from the bones of his earth himself. (This concept has a lot of overlap with Sorcery, tbf.) Be the dark lord, that somehow inexplicably always seems to have an evil dark fortress floating in the sky or what have you even when there's really no possible way he could get the manpower or resources for it. If the social character is building a nation, then build him a terracotta army to defend it and golden roads to connect his peoples. That sort of archetype.

I'm not super interested being Agatha Heterodyne, for precisely the reason that she so rarely gets a chance to really do stuff, that isn't just on-the-fly tinkering with what she has available. MacGuyver is cool and all, but ... as the guy behind the screen, it doesn't really feel like being a crafter, any more than pushing the Firaga button in a Final Fantasy game makes me feel like being a wizard; for that matter, there isn't a whole lot of gameplay difference between "I cast fireball" and "I shoot a gun that casts fireball". For that I need to have some simulation, some actual implementation-rules to dig into and work with and around. In that regard I would much prefer @Shyft's system of abstracted projects and means, or the existing bootleg "let's just pirate the 3E Sorcery Ambition rules" hack, over what sounds to me like basically playing a D&D Artificer.

[1] (Except the ones that are. @Aleph. :V)
 
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I mean, I can't speak for all people-who-want-to-play Crafters, but... well, tbh most of what I want is the... the larger-scale, long-term stuff. Yes, go big on strategic actions; to me that's half the point of Exalted as a setting, you're god-kings not murderhobos[1]. Make a blinged out fortress base, a manse, a place of power. Be the sorcerer in his tower, that he raised from the bones of his earth himself. (This concept has a lot of overlap with Sorcery, tbf.) Be the dark lord, that somehow inexplicably always seems to have an evil dark fortress floating in the sky or what have you even when there's really no possible way he could get the manpower or resources for it. If the social character is building a nation, then build him a terracotta army to defend it and golden roads to connect his peoples. That sort of archetype.

I'm not super interested being Agatha Heterodyne, for precisely the reason that she so rarely gets a chance to really do stuff, that isn't just on-the-fly tinkering with what she has available. MacGuyver is cool and all, but ... as the guy behind the screen, it doesn't really feel like being a crafter, any more than pushing the Firaga button in a Final Fantasy game makes me feel like being a wizard; for that matter, there isn't a whole lot of gameplay difference between "I cast fireball" and "I shoot a gun that casts fireball". For that I need to have some simulation, some actual implementation-rules to dig into and work with and around. In that regard I would much prefer @Shyft's system of abstracted projects and means, or the existing bootleg "let's just pirate the 3E Sorcery Ambition rules" hack, over what sounds to me like basically playing a D&D Artificer.

[1] (Except the ones that are. @Aleph. :V)
I agree with this
 
EDIT: Ultimately, this system would likely run the closest to actual mythological crafters; Weyland's flying machine that saves him from captivity and Daedalus' wings for one. The big problem is, that as you say, the entire archetype of a dedicated craftsman is just very gameified, and Exalted's notion that Magical Stuff were crafted as Magical Stuff rather than something that became Magical Stuff, leads it to actively require the craftsman in a way that is probably self-sabotaging.

Remarkable, someone was saying this literally yesterday in a discord group of mine. This line of reply didn't generate much sympathy, so perhaps my thinking is slipshod.

Some items do not have mundane equivalents which can become the magical item they are. Take the Shiekah everything from BotW. I don't think the guardians were ever giant upsidedown pots that spontaneously developed legs and laser eyes. To use a more Exalted example, Warstriders didn't grow from regular armor into iron gods striding across the dusty plains of earth.

The world is littered with nice stuff or the ruined remnants thereof that are almost gone. Stuff that people like you made. And for me, and some other people I have played with, wanting to make that kind of stuff is a big draw.
 
I mean, I can't speak for all people-who-want-to-play Crafters, but... well, tbh most of what I want is the... the larger-scale, long-term stuff.

Fair enough. I'm not saying that artifact creation rules shouldn't exist; in fact, I wrote some.

But the kind of craft you're interested in causes a lot of trouble when it's a character's central focus. Especially in a system with no bureaucracy subsystem and very few rules for long-term action.

You've gotta have other stuff going on. If you don't want to be Agatha Heterodyne you can be a front-line fighter or a socialite or anything else, as long you're good at doing something that takes less than a week.

ES said it pretty well, I think:

Honestly, hot take here, but you should probably ban anyone automatically whose character concept is "a crafter". It's a peculiarly game-ised concept that always requires disproportionate amounts of dev time and warps the game around it. You can accept characters who can do such things, but it can't be the focus of their character.

Hotter take - most RPGs would be vastly improved if devs stopped enabling the idea of "the crafter" when they're not going to do the same for other long-term options.

If Craft is gonna be a viable Supernal, it needs to be able to support concepts other than "source of Artifacts". Besides, the Craft tree needs Charms to fill it. Artifact crafting can't provide that many without turning into nonsense like the Ex3 Solar Craft Charmset. Fortunately, there are plenty of usable concepts for short-time-scale abilities would feel distinctly Craft-esque.

For that I need to have some simulation, some actual implementation-rules to dig into and work with and around. In that regard I would much prefer @Shyft's system of abstracted projects and means, or the existing bootleg "let's just pirate the 3E Sorcery Ambition rules" hack, over what sounds to me like basically playing a D&D Artificer.

Funny thing is, you're playing a D&D artificer either way. The only question is whether it's a 3.5e Artificer or a 5e Artificer.

It should be noted that the 3.5e Artificer, the one that takes the "artifactory" approach, is by all accounts kind of a disaster of a class. From a balance perspective, at least.
 
Five Harmonies Sanctuary
Situated in rural Myion Prefecture, the Five Harmonies Sanctuary stands as a monument to the auspiciousness of the Realm and the divine mandate held by the Scarlet Empress(or so the Immaculates say). Somewhere between monastery and temple-city, the sprawling Sanctuary portrays a Creation in microcosm, perfectly in line with the Immaculate Hierarchy. Consisting of five elemental manses arranged so as to mimic the arrangement of the elemental poles, the Sanctuary's geomancy is taken by the Scarlet Dynasty to be a sign of heavenly approval for the Realm, for what other nation would be so blessed with such an auspicious set of demesnes.
For centuries, pious dynasts and esteemed monks have made pilgrimages to the sanctuary in order to commune with each manse's elemental aspect, visiting each of the Elemental poles by way of safe proxy. Tradition holds that monks of appropriate aspect tend to the sanctuary's natural geomancy, as the manses themselves cannot contain the primal flow elemental essence from the powerful demesnes they cap. Long considered spiritually enlightening, the Sanctuary has seen an increase in pilgrims ever since the Empress's disappearance. Fearful monks pray to avert Civil War, while desperate dynasts hope that the Sanctuary's essence will provide an alternative to the Caul's revitalizing effect on the Dragon's Blood.
Aside from the five manses (each referred to as sanctums), the complex contains numerous dwellings for monks and pilgrims, as well as shrines along the paths connecting each manse, each an idealized step along the journey through the model Creation. Small areas are landscaped by mortal monks to resemble various satrapies, while others are recreations of allegorical locations mentioned in the Immaculate Texts.

The Air Sanctum
Located in the northern part of the sanctuary, the Air Sanctum is constantly beset by winds of varying intensity. Windmills and prayer flags cover the sanctum's jade-roofed minarets, some of them connected to occult mechanisms housed within. The monks at this sanctum always have at least one sorcerer and several thaumaturges among them to help manage and manipulate the local weather, whether that means quieting dangerous lightning storms or inciting them in accordance with certain directives from the Palace Sublime. The monks sometimes attempt to read the future using the local weather, setting out divinatory kite effigies to be blown about by the wind and interpreting fate by their flight patterns. Some kites have remained in the air for decades without being attached to a line, one, said to have first been flown by the Empress herself, has even been in flight for centuries.

The Wood Sanctum
Located in the eastern part of the sanctuary, the Wood Sanctum lies in a naturally formed depression colloquially called the Ampitheatre of Sextes Jylis. Columns of jade veined marble ring the outer edge of depression, while benches, small dwellings, and geomantic structures fill the "seats" of the theatre. The central "stage" is dominated by an ever changing play orchestrated by the manse's own essence. Countless trees and flowers grow from the earth at an astounding pace, reminiscent of scenes playing out in theatre, sprouting to full height and then withering away within hours. It is considered good luck for expectant mothers to walk amongst the plant "actors" and participate in their esoteric plays, while many an elderly citizen has passed away while peacefully meditating in the audience section.

The Fire Sanctum
The Southern part of the sanctuary houses the most austere sanctum. The surrounding environs are barren save for a few hardy shrubs and the air is constantly arid. The Fire Sanctum itself is a towering basalt structure, encircling an open air courtyard littered with ashes. In the center of the courtyard lies a great, rainbow colored bonfire. Brave monks, long adjusted to the sanctum's oppressive heat, stoke the fire with offerings to the Dragons and take embers away in glass flasks to serve as wards against evil omens. The ashes from the courtyard are used in ritual cleansings by duelists, while athletes meditate in the presence of the bonfire or dance atop beds of coals, honing their bodies to Hesiesh's ideal.

The Water Sanctum
The Sanctuary's western section houses the Water Sanctum. A great rectangular temple basin sits in the centre of the sanctum, the stairs leading down to it chiseled with excerpts from the Immaculate Texts. Miniature dragon boats containing offerings sail in the basin, the currents subtly manipulated by water aspected monks on the shore. At times, the monks arrange the boats like a great abacus and perform sums calculating the amount of time spent worshipping the gods subject to the local prayer calendar. Much like ashes of the Fire Sanctum, the water here is used in ritual purifications, with dynasts and monks bathing in the water to symbolically wash away unwanted aspects of themselves or to search for answers to spiritual questions in the depths of the reservoir.

The Earth Sanctum
The very center of the Sanctuary holds the imposing Earth Sanctum, a temple with a courtyard containing an exquisite rock garden with multi-hued sand. The resident monks meticulously trace patterns and prayers into the sand, or bring boulders that they chisel into the images of the Immaculate Dragons. Ascetics bury themselves in the sand, leaving only their heads or faces exposed, and meditate for days without food or water. In the very heart of the rock garden contains an immense boulder shot through with veins of jade, encircled with sacred rope and covered with carvings of scenes from the Immaculate Texts. This proxy omphalos is traditionally the last stop on a pilgrimage, the faithful encircle it five times(carefully covering the tracks they make in the sand) and legend has it that the sacred essence of the boulder kills any impious being that touches it.

Intrigues and Mysteries
  • The Sanctuary is normally peaceful and harmonious(else it would not be an ideal model of Creation), but very recently, a most inauspicious event occurred on the grounds. Four years after the Empress's disappearance, during Calibration, a respected dragon-blood was found dead on the grounds of each of the sanctums, each discovered to have taken their own life in a manner that resonated with the manses' aspects. The monks have covered up the deaths, but the elder immaculates and their Sidereal handlers ponder what this ill omen means.
  • In truth, not all of the demesnes that power the Sanctuary are natural, and not all of them are of Dynastic construction. The Air and Fire Sanctums were created by Sidereals using powerful geomancy, while the Earth Sanctum and Water sanctums was renovated from manses dating back to the Realm Before. The artificial nature of two of the demesnes(though not the involvement of the Sidereals) is a bit of an open secret in the Immaculate Order, the truth of the matter being deemed less important than the glorification of the Perfected Hierachy. In truth though, the Earth Sanctum contains a few dark secrets that the Sidereal and Immaculate censors failed to discover, while the Water manse is due for repairs that the resident Dragon-Blooded have no idea how to perform.
  • The current Abbot, Tepet Asira, is nearing death, and her likely successor, a monk known as Red Fern, is poised to assume her position. Red Fern secretly harbors some radical ideas regarding the administration of the Sanctuary's surrounding lands. She plans to geomantically arrange and relocate the farmlands and villages neighboring the Sanctum as an extension of its model Creation, hopefully creating a system that spreads to the rest of the Blessed Isle. She has willfully ignored the level of economic and social disruption this might cause as well as the prospect the project's infringement on the administrative purview of the Thousand Scales and the Great Houses.
  • A cell of Iselsi sleeper agents has infiltrated the Sanctuary, spying on the pilgrims and subverting the administration. They have not yet decided what to do about Red Fern, but in the meantime, they wormed their way deep into the Sanctuary's hierarchy. One has even discovered a hidden sepulchre beneath the Earth Sanctum and the pre-human relics housed within, not yet aware of the antediluvian horror that slumbers in the depths.
 
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Fair enough. I'm not saying that artifact creation rules shouldn't exist; in fact, I wrote some.

But the kind of craft you're interested in causes a lot of trouble when it's a character's central focus. Especially in a system with no bureaucracy subsystem and very few rules for long-term action.

You've gotta have other stuff going on. If you don't want to be Agatha Heterodyne you can be a front-line fighter or a socialite or anything else, as long you're good at doing something that takes less than a week.

ES said it pretty well, I think:
Why?

Or like, the solution is to make a Bureaucracy subsystem and proper mechanics for nation-building large-scale projects in general. A socialite might be able to get close to one person or convince a few people, but -- Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe aside -- as a general rule doing any major long term change will take weeks and months. A general is going to be spending large amounts of time marching around, gathering troops, and otherwise operating on a pretty large scale, too.

A craft character can have MacGuyver Charms to do a few things on the fly -- but it's perfectly reasonable, in a game like Exalted, to have a focus on long-term projects. Again, god-kings, not murderhobos; or like, I'm much more interested in a nation-building story than the classic "wander the land, cut down people you think are evil, leave it to everyone else to clean up the mess" RPG story.

As such,

If Craft is gonna be a viable Supernal, it needs to be able to support concepts other than "source of Artifacts". Besides, the Craft tree needs Charms to fill it. Artifact crafting can't provide that many without turning into nonsense like the Ex3 Solar Craft Charmset. Fortunately, there are plenty of usable concepts for short-time-scale abilities would feel distinctly Craft-esque.
I disagree. You can just really really double down hard on "source of Artifacts." You don't make Charms that make Artifacts, you make Charms that make factories to make Artifacts; you provide, say, a "mass production" tree that specializes towards large quantities of simple miracles, and an "Infinity-Plus-One" tree that specializes towards hand-made treasures of incredible power, and then a scatter of MacGuyver Charms -- but by far the focus isn't on "make the next thing good," but rather on "make a really good place to make lots of good things."

(And just drop Craftsman Needs No Tools into a shredder, lol. Or make it into a MacGuyver Charm that lets you rip apart a bunch of priceless treasures to make a one-use piece of crap that does something narratively useful on the fly or something.)

But I see no reason why Craft can't be like, say, Bureaucracy or War in concept, and be an Ability that fundamentally assumes large scale and large time scales.

-- Except, of course, for the fact that Exalted doesn't in fact have those subsystems, lol. But I think that these are all the same fix, that you should be able to write a generalized Exalted-at-scale rules that would solve the Bureaucracy problem and the War problem and the Craft problem all at once. (I'm even sort of poking at it now, in fact...)
 
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I disagree. You can just really really double down hard on "source of Artifacts." You don't make Charms that make Artifacts, you make Charms that make factories to make Artifacts; you provide, say, a "mass production" tree that specializes towards large quantities of simple miracles, and an "Infinity-Plus-One" tree that specializes towards hand-made treasures of incredible power, and then a scatter of MacGuyver Charms -- but by far the focus isn't on "make the next thing good," but rather on "make a really good place to make lots of good things."

(And just drop Craftsman Needs No Tools into a shredder, lol. Or make it into a MacGuyver Charm that lets you rip apart a bunch of priceless treasures to make a one-use piece of crap that does something narratively useful on the fly or something.)

But I see no reason why Craft can't be like, say, Bureaucracy or War in concept, and be an Ability that fundamentally assumes large scale and large time scales.

-- Except, of course, for the fact that Exalted doesn't in fact have those subsystems, lol. But I think that these are all the same fix, that you should be able to write a generalized Exalted-at-scale rules that would solve the Bureaucracy problem and the War problem and the Craft problem all at once. (I'm even sort of poking at it now, in fact...)

At the risk of excessive focus on minutia detracting from my general agreement with your general points:

I don't know that those should be charms. Rather, I think there should be charms that enable you to build things that improve your ability. Charms that let you build factories, not charms that replace factories.
 
At the risk of excessive focus on minutia detracting from my general agreement with your general points:

I don't know that those should be charms. Rather, I think there should be charms that enable you to build things that improve your ability. Charms that let you build factories, not charms that replace factories.
The problem with that is, they'd basically be "Charms that Build Gooder" in concept, at which point it'd be weird if the Charm also said "btw you can only use these on things that make other things." And even if it did, it'd imply that you could totally just invent your own Charm that directly Builds Gooder. I want direct "Build Gooder" to be completely out of the design space; the only Charms that do that are the First, Second, and Third Craft Excellencies (and the similar "template" Charms like Infinite Mastery.)

Thus, one way or another, the Charms that exist should basically all be factories; perhaps not necessarily replacing factories (unless you're an Infernal, in which case I would totally give you a Shintai Charm to just be a factory lol), but ultimately "you use this Charm, and you make a place that lets you Build Gooder", so there's a step of indirection in between and motivation to stay in vaguely one place and uptech one particular workshop.
 
For what it's worth, I've seen exactly one player run a crafter in a way that didn't try and overwhelm the game and every other character in it.
 
Or like, the solution is to make a Bureaucracy subsystem and proper mechanics for nation-building large-scale projects in general. A socialite might be able to get close to one person or convince a few people, but -- Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe aside -- as a general rule doing any major long term change will take weeks and months. A general is going to be spending large amounts of time marching around, gathering troops, and otherwise operating on a pretty large scale, too.

A craft character can have MacGuyver Charms to do a few things on the fly -- but it's perfectly reasonable, in a game like Exalted, to have a focus on long-term projects. Again, god-kings, not murderhobos; or like, I'm much more interested in a nation-building story than the classic "wander the land, cut down people you think are evil, leave it to everyone else to clean up the mess" RPG story.

...

But I see no reason why Craft can't be like, say, Bureaucracy or War in concept, and be an Ability that fundamentally assumes large scale and large time scales.

-- Except, of course, for the fact that Exalted doesn't in fact have those subsystems, lol. But I think that these are all the same fix, that you should be able to write a generalized Exalted-at-scale rules that would solve the Bureaucracy problem and the War problem and the Craft problem all at once. (I'm even sort of poking at it now, in fact...)

Having poked at the same idea myself, I'm confident that you won't get anywhere good. There's a reason my bureaucracy rules are very different from my craft rules; crafting and bureaucracy are very different activities.

If you want to focus Exalted on long-term activity, you'll need to revamp it pretty thoroughly. And it's possible that a long-term focus for the Craft ability might work in a revamped system. But that system doesn't exist; in the game that is real and can be played, craft needs the ability to work quickly.

Also, one cautionary note: RPGs are not played solitaire. Characters need to interact with each other for the game to be worth playing. Any long-term-action-focused system needs to keep that in mind.

I disagree. You can just really really double down hard on "source of Artifacts." You don't make Charms that make Artifacts, you make Charms that make factories to make Artifacts; you provide, say, a "mass production" tree that specializes towards large quantities of simple miracles, and an "Infinity-Plus-One" tree that specializes towards hand-made treasures of incredible power, and then a scatter of MacGuyver Charms -- but by far the focus isn't on "make the next thing good," but rather on "make a really good place to make lots of good things."

That's just the current 3e paradigm, with factories instead of abstract slots and points.

Making the path to a simple result more complex isn't gonna lead to a fun system. If you really want to double down on making Artifact creation interesting in itself, you need to make Artifacts themselves a lot more complicated. You need to make creating a direlance meaningfully different from creating a daiklave, and creating an Artifact-grade meal meaningfully different from both.

v(And just drop Craftsman Needs No Tools into a shredder, lol. Or make it into a MacGuyver Charm that lets you rip apart a bunch of priceless treasures to make a one-use piece of crap that does something narratively useful on the fly or something.)

You realize that's the best-loved Craft Charm in the game, right?

It's also the one that does the most to get people actually using Craft. Any rewrite which bins it is either bad or incredibly narrowly targeted.

The problem with that is, they'd basically be "Charms that Build Gooder" in concept, at which point it'd be weird if the Charm also said "btw you can only use these on things that make other things." And even if it did, it'd imply that you could totally just invent your own Charm that directly Builds Gooder. I want direct "Build Gooder" to be completely out of the design space; the only Charms that do that are the First, Second, and Third Craft Excellencies (and the similar "template" Charms like Infinite Mastery.)

...why?

Exalts can be superhuman at basically anything imaginable. Why exclude cooking and forging and the like from that?
 
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You realize that's the best-loved Craft Charm in the game, right?

It's also the one that does the most to get people actually using Craft. Any rewrite which bins it is either bad or incredibly narrowly targeted.
You say that, but I think you're the very first person I've met who actually likes it...

That's just the current 3e paradigm, with factories instead of abstract slots and points.

Making the path to a simple result more complex isn't gonna lead to a fun system. If you really want to double down on making Artifact creation interesting in itself, you need to make Artifacts themselves a lot more complicated. You need to make creating a direlance meaningfully different from creating a daiklave, and creating an Artifact-grade meal meaningfully different from both.
Sort of, yes. With an actual physical factory that you have in-character, that only makes things you're interested in, and that you have to protect and negotiate land for and get to and from.

So, you know, not at all the same as an abstract point system.

(Also yes there's a separate problem of "how to make Crafting fun the way Fighting is (allegedly) fun", but that's sort of fundamental to the nature of actually crafting in games in general.)

...why?

Exalts can be superhuman at basically anything imaginable. Why exclude cooking and forging and the like from that?
I'm not. If you want to make a superhuman meal, throw your Excellency at it. If you want to make an incredible normal sword, throw your Excellency at it.

If you want more dice than that, go make yourself tools and a workshop like everyone else, unless you're from a splat that explicitly avoids the usual means of doing things, like Sidereals or Infernals do.
 
You say that, but I think you're the very first person I've met who actually likes it...

How many people have you met who like any Craft Charm?

I did a fair bit of research when I was rewriting things: when people had cool stories about craft being fun, it was usually about CNNT.

Sort of, yes. With an actual physical factory that you have in-character, that only makes things you're interested in, and that you have to protect and negotiate land for and get to and from.

So, you know, not at all the same as an abstract point system.

The problem with the 3e craft paradigm is not that slots are too easy to protect from attack.

Slots and points also only make things you're interested in, and getting land is rarely particularly difficult or interesting. Cookie clicker nonsense sucks, and adding an extra hoop to jump through won't change that.

(Also yes there's a separate problem of "how to make Crafting fun the way Fighting is (allegedly) fun", but that's sort of fundamental to the nature of actually crafting in games in general.)

It's fundamental to the nature of long-term individual activities. If you're using Craft on a short timescale, the solitaire problem doesn't generally arise.

I'm not. If you want to make a superhuman meal, throw your Excellency at it. If you want to make an incredible normal sword, throw your Excellency at it.

If you want more dice than that, go make yourself tools and a workshop like everyone else, unless you're from a splat that explicitly avoids the usual means of doing things, like Sidereals or Infernals do.

It's not about getting tons of dice. It's about doing things that a mortal actually can't do, even if their dice come up tens.

Which Exalted magic can do for every other skill out there.
 
You say that, but I think you're the very first person I've met who actually likes it...

This is because you post on SV. SV is a fairly unique Exalted milieu with particular opinions, I post and moderate regularly on the biggest Exalted discord, and my dislike of CNNT is a minority opinion along with @Kuciwalker and some other peeps. Sanctaphrax is the first person you've met who likes it, because SV is special, not because CNNT is vastly disliked.
 
How many people have you met who like any Craft Charm?

I did a fair bit of research when I was rewriting things: when people had cool stories about craft being fun, it was usually about CNNT.
This is because you post on SV. SV is a fairly unique Exalted milieu with particular opinions, I post and moderate regularly on the biggest Exalted discord, and my dislike of CNNT is a minority opinion along with @Kuciwalker and some other peeps. Sanctaphrax is the first person you've met who likes it, because SV is special, not because CNNT is vastly disliked.
Fair, I suppose. Nevertheless, it's just... not super inspiring to me. As a way to make sure you can work in the worst possible conditions, I guess it works, but it really shouldn't be more than a limited "I guess if I have literally nothing else" last resort, IMO.

The problem with the 3e craft paradigm is not that slots are too easy to protect from attack.

Slots and points also only make things you're interested in, and getting land is rarely particularly difficult or interesting. Cookie clicker nonsense sucks, and adding an extra hoop to jump through won't change that.
.... Isn't there a whole meme that you have to go build a bajillion Artifact spoons or whatever to get enough Craft xp to make anything interesting?

And... uh, a workshop needs to be: easy to get to, close to useful resources, easy to move large amounts of stuff in and out of, and ideally close to other people. These are all things that other people want, too. Getting a decent patch of land for a workshop that isn't just the middle of nowhere may very well be an arc on its own, just as much as any other "build/find a base" requirement. It's not cookie clicker nonsense, it's having to interact with the setting.

I mean, I guess if you're going 100% mountaintop hobo blacksmith, and you only ever need small amounts of very rare materials or something, you could get away with just taking over a random patch of desert or something, but... well, in that case it really is just a matter of "yeah I'm somewhere around here on the map, nobody else cares because it's ridiculously inhospitable to people who aren't Exalts, we're done"?

It's fundamental to the nature of long-term individual activities. If you're using Craft on a short timescale, the solitaire problem doesn't generally arise.

It's not about getting tons of dice. It's about doing things that a mortal actually can't do, even if their dice come up tens.

Which Exalted magic can do for every other skill out there.
*shrug* I mean, again, long-term activities are fundamentally broad in scope, because of the nature of... well, people over long periods of times.

Or like... it's a lot easier to wage war if you have a pocket crafter mass producing arms and armor; it's a lot easier to take over a nation or change the policies of a large area if you can abuse realpolitik, i.e. are capable of waging war; and of course, it's a pain in the arse to make anything Impressive -- either large like a manse or powerful like, I dunno, a Soulbreaker Orb or something -- without infrastructure and materials, which generally requires influence over a nation. So I really don't think this is all that much of a fundamental problem; it's just a problem with Exalted not actually having any rules for being a god-king.

And well... *shrug* The thing is about Craft is, once an Artifact is created it doesn't really 'care' who or how it was made. Assuming they're capable of getting the job done at all (have enough dice/pass whatever minimums the Craft rules have for an Artifact of that dot rating/whatever), once it's done it's... done, if a Solar and a DB and a 3CD all follow the same blueprints and use the same materials they're going to have basically the same Artifact. So if anything, "Craft Gooder" is "stuff a mortal can do, if their dice come up tens."

So instead, the idea is that you shift all the "Craft Gooder" stuff over to "how good is your workshop?", and save the Charms for a) quickly establishing really good workshops; b) more slowly establishing mini-factory-cathedrals that let you mass produce things that a mortal would have to hand-craft; c) reduce material costs beyond what should be possible, or otherwise break the Craft rules for mortals.

Though I probably should read the 3E Charm list, but bleeeeeh...
 
I love CNNT from a role playing prospective. I just really really love describing how the hell I'm making something with my bare hands. Also, I always hated the very idea of mass produced artifacts. Like, each and everyone of those should be something special in its own way. The idea of it being spit out by a large machine is meh.

My perspective of charms tends to be. Is it fun to roleplay or not? Something like Discretionary Gesture isn't that big of a deal. But like, holy shit is it fun to use.

Where Craft fails for me is that it is boring most of the time. It dosen't let me do cool roleplay stuff as much when I'm making the artifacts.
 
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Pretty much. It's amusing to see the Lunar Charmset desperately try to patch up these things, like the Wits charm that's just like "Yeah, you can pull out an already-crafted artefact you picked up somewhere that does what you need for the narrative".

But that would require Exalted to decide if it's results-based or process-based, and also what its abilities actually are. Are they processes, or are they jobs?
Exalted really desperately needs a narrative-based system rather than trying to go hard on the crunch.

and also devs that aren't insanely weird about how they're making "art" like Holden and Morke believed they were. If you're an Exalted dev, you're making wuxia anime schlock for people to play so they can feel good about owning the evil dead with a big fuck-off sword, you're not writing At Swim-Two-Birds.
 
and also devs that aren't insanely weird about how they're making "art" like Holden and Morke believed they were. If you're an Exalted dev, you're making wuxia anime schlock for people to play so they can feel good about owning the evil dead with a big fuck-off sword, you're not writing At Swim-Two-Birds.

See the issue is some people think Exalted is at its worst when it's anime schlock :V
 
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