General Exalted Thread

[BlueBiscuit]

Nah, I was more thinking of the part where we had to ban a specific kind of mortal-appropriate magic because a Godbound learning it for a single fact could be more worthwhile than Gifts for several levels.

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Out of curiousity do you remember which magic path/spell was that? Cuz I remember finding the lesser magic in Godbound weak to the point I wondered why a GB player character would take them.

I think what made Godbound such a nonstarter for me is the fact that it repeats a lot of the things I disliked from Exalted 2E. Gifts like Nine Iron Walls or Defy the Iron are more or less functional equivalents to Perfect Defenses from Exalted 2E, where as long as you have Effort to spend you autoblock an attack without any additional drawback. Which, when combined with "Perfect Attack" style Gifts like Unerring Blade, basically means that unless you can fiat damage away with a Defense you're pretty much dead. If you can fiat it away though, then combat basically becomes a binary where the winner is the one who is able to run out of Effort last, coupled with intervening rounds where nothing more significant happens then "I automatically hit" and "I automatically block" which is just a boring waste of time for everyone.

It wasn't a good idea in 2E Exalted, it isn't a good idea now, and the most I can say about Godbound is that at least the lower Effort pools make the resource attrition process at least somewhat quicker than base 2E and is somewhat more comparable to 2.5E.

Take this sample combat here: Staff Pick [Sine Nomine] Godbound - Page 84

It's uncomfortably familiar, in the sense that two of the PCs end up eating shit because they lack applicable defenses to the Villain spamming unavoidable hits, with the third managing to grind down the Villain's effort first only to have the people who chose less Optimal abilities during char-gen used as hostages against him

At the very least, Exalted 3E gave abilities like these more of a drawback than just a flat cost, but Godbound seems to just repeat mistakes rather than solve them where combat is concerned.

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Meh, I'll still take Godbound's combat experience and balance over Exalted's, 3rd or 2e (the only one's I have experience with).

I'll 100% admit that personal anecdotes and experience aren't the meter for a game's balance, but 3E was kinda ok out of combat and a dreadfully dry experience once fists and blades started flying, to the point that by the sixth session we unanimously killed the game, and with that also died my interest in using Exalted as anything more that a greatly interesting setting to adapt for games I find more enjoyable to play, like Godbound or Mutants and Masterminds like someone mentioned upthread.

For all the undeniable flaws of the d20 system and it's derivatives, neither of those games ever made me feel like the mechanics where detracting from my enjoyment of the game.

 

[ichypa]

Exalted's mechanical system has always underwhelmed me with its ability to actually make me feel like an epic hero or a demigod. I like (most of) its setting and ideas, but when I actually look deep inside myself, I dunno if I'd ever actually want to play it using the given mechanics.

 

[Deations]

Meh, I'll still take Godbound's combat experience and balance over Exalted's, 3rd or 2e (the only one's I have experience with).

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My issue is that Godbound feels a lot like Exalted 2E. Though I will say that, as a GM, 3E at least let me throw credible opponents at the PCs without turning things into a masochistic grind or a total party kill. I don't have fond memories of all the times in 2E where had Abyssal antagonists ignore their easily applicable perfect defenses, or the time I killed a PC Dawn when both he and the NPC Dusk used Iron Whirlwind Technique on each other.

 

[Maugan Ra]

I do not recommend Godbound. It makes an attempt at providing for large scale society building rules, but they are honestly not great, and the entire combat engine explodes dramatically if two Godbound try to duke it out in any meaningful fashion.

 

[BossFight]

So what are everyone's thoughts on refluffing Infernal Charms? I'm a big fan of letting players do so for combos using different Yozi Charms.

As an example, Thousand-Fold Typhoon Hand and Green Sun Nimbus Flare being refluffed as a bolt of green lightning.

 

[QafianSage]

So what are everyone's thoughts on refluffing Infernal Charms? I'm a big fan of letting players do so for combos using different Yozi Charms.

As an example, Thousand-Fold Typhoon Hand and Green Sun Nimbus Flare being refluffed as a bolt of green lightning.

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Well, I'm currently fiddling with an alternate set of (rather lower-essence) Devil-Tiger charms, one aspect of which is that instead of requiring you to immediately create a complete set of charms the first charm in the tree allows you to A) create a set of Yozi general charms and B) adapt other Yozi charms to your aesthetics - GSNF might become a crackling burst of lightning, for instance, if your Devil-Tiger self was the Heavenly Thunder. So I'm open to the idea, but I'm not sure that Infernals should be able to do it normally.

 

[Crawling Chaos]

I do not recommend Godbound. It makes an attempt at providing for large scale society building rules, but they are honestly not great, and the entire combat engine explodes dramatically if two Godbound try to duke it out in any meaningful fashion.

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To be fair Exalted suffers from the same issues with rocket tag being a noted problem of 2e. Hell, does Exalted even have large scale society building rules? I honestly can't remember.

I do know I tried to cobble together some organization mechanics for Exalted using the Reign 'Company Rules' way back when. Hmm, I'll need to see about digging those up and seeing how they look now after all this time.

 

[QafianSage]

To be fair Exalted suffers from the same issues with rocket tag being a noted problem of 2e. Hell, does Exalted even have large scale society building rules? I honestly can't remember.

I do know I tried to cobble together some organization mechanics for Exalted using the Reign 'Company Rules' way back when. Hmm, I'll need to see about digging those up and seeing how they look now after all this time.

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There's the Creation-Ruling Mandate system, but I have no idea how usable that is.

 

[BossFight]

Well, I'm currently fiddling with an alternate set of (rather lower-essence) Devil-Tiger charms, one aspect of which is that instead of requiring you to immediately create a complete set of charms the first charm in the tree allows you to A) create a set of Yozi general charms and B) adapt other Yozi charms to your aesthetics - GSNF might become a crackling burst of lightning, for instance, if your Devil-Tiger self was the Heavenly Thunder. So I'm open to the idea, but I'm not sure that Infernals should be able to do it normally.

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Honestly if you're going that route, my idea would be to have the devil tiger charm to allow you to create new charms based on your themes. That way you can do it PM a per charm basis and keep all your old chamrs

 

[QafianSage]

Honestly if you're going that route, my idea would be to have the devil tiger charm to allow you to create new charms based on your themes. That way you can do it PM a per charm basis and keep all your old chamrs

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That's the second charm in the tree. The way it goes is:

1. You make a set of General charms and can adapt other charms to your Mythos (though you don't have to)
2. You can make new charms based on your Mythos and teach your charms to others
3. You get to redefine your caste mark, Urge, Torment and anima, as well as make yourself a Precipitous Fiat (i.e. Act of Villainy) as a massive Blasphemy effect

In that order. Though I'm considering removing the second charm to reduce the XP-sink-ness.

 

[Maugan Ra]

To be fair Exalted suffers from the same issues with rocket tag being a noted problem of 2e. Hell, does Exalted even have large scale society building rules? I honestly can't remember.

I do know I tried to cobble together some organization mechanics for Exalted using the Reign 'Company Rules' way back when. Hmm, I'll need to see about digging those up and seeing how they look now after all this time.

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No, I mean Godbound is literally worse than Exalted 2e when it comes to rocket tag. Not just in physical combat either - it also shatters into pieces when you look at social influence as well.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

That's the second charm in the tree. The way it goes is:

1. You make a set of General charms and can adapt other charms to your Mythos (though you don't have to)
2. You can make new charms based on your Mythos and teach your charms to others
3. You get to redefine your caste mark, Urge, Torment and anima, as well as make yourself a Precipitous Fiat (i.e. Act of Villainy) as a massive Blasphemy effect

In that order. Though I'm considering removing the second charm to reduce the XP-sink-ness.

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Honestly, it might work better to just say that Infernal Exalts tend to display weird distortions of their Charms' visual aesthetic as their Essence rises, without needing to pay XP on Charms to represent it. As their souls begin to stabilize and grow into their new status as a Neo-Primordial, elements of their embryonic Mythos seeps into how they channel their Yozic gifts, like a spray of water being altered by a differently-shaped nozzle.

 

[QafianSage]

Honestly, it might work better to just say that Infernal Exalts tend to display weird distortions of their Charms' visual aesthetic as their Essence rises, without needing to pay XP on Charms to represent it. As their souls begin to stabilize and grow into their new status as a Neo-Primordial, elements of their embryonic Mythos seeps into how they channel their Yozic gifts, like a spray of water being altered by a differently-shaped nozzle.

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Hmm. That could be interesting - some kind of system directly plugged into Essence - but it makes it hard to have powerful 'straight' Yozi loyalists. It also detracts from the idea that going Devil-Tiger is something that requires an Infernal to look at themselves, look at their charms and say 'This is not me', then proceed to break their powers over their metaphysical knee until they are 'true'. On the other hand, that in itself could be interesting, and add even more to the fractious nature of the Reclamation - on one hand, the 3CDs want powerful pawns in Creation, while at the same time the more powerful their pawns become the more they self-define as 'themselves'. I guess you could get around the 'all my Infernals look different' problem by simply having the diehard loyalists 'evolve' towards simply embodying their patrons (Deveh begins to express even non-SWLiHN charms in a Pyrian sort of way, for instance).

 

[GardenerBriareus]

I guess you could get around the 'all my Infernals look different' problem by simply having the diehard loyalists 'evolve' towards simply embodying their patrons (Deveh begins to express even non-SWLiHN charms in a Pyrian sort of way, for instance).

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That definitely works.

 

[QafianSage]

That definitely works.

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What kind of changes would you attach to each level of Essence? I don't really want to do the thing that BWC did in locking all this up in really high Essence-scores.

 

[BossFight]

What kind of changes would you attach to each level of Essence? I don't really want to do the thing that BWC did in locking all this up in really high Essence-scores.

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I'd just make it a case by case basis. Someone who uses their charms in methods and combinations distinct from their intended purpose will see this happen sooner, while those who hew closely to design intent may never see this happen at all.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

What kind of changes would you attach to each level of Essence? I don't really want to do the thing that BWC did in locking all this up in really high Essence-scores.

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I'd say it probably starts happening at either E3 or E4, depending on whether you want it to be something that almost any Green Sun Prince starts developing if they don't die within a few seasons of Exalting, or more of a subtle signifier that the Infernal is starting to "grow up" as they close in on the E5/E6 divide that separates a powerful warlock from a newborn Primordial.

So let's say that at E3, you get very subtle twists, like the visual "language" of one Yozi bleeding into the Charms of another - sparks of Malfean fire inside of Pyrean crystal, or Szoreny's cinnabar flowers blossoming on the grey shoots of Metagaos' swamp. It's minor enough to be mistaken for a sign that the Infernal is acclimatizing to their role as a vessel for the Yozis' collective power, and more ignorant Infernals might not even notice it until someone else points it out to them. At this point, the Coadjutor starts to fade from their anima banner, and is usually completely gone by the time they raise their Essence again.

At E4, that sort of Yozic chimerism becomes more pronounced, to the point where if they go fully totemic you can see crazy smorgasbords like Szorenian branch-limbs made of Pyrean glass and studded with corrosive Kimberian barnacles. Also, some of their Charms start to outright mutate visually towards their proto-Mythos' themes, and this is where loyalist GSPs start visibly showing their favoritism (potentially through displaying the themes of a specific Unquestionable, rather than a Yozi). This is where your Green Sun Nimbus Flare becomes a swarm of flesh-eating locusts or a Volumen Hydrargyros-style blob of murderous mercury.

E5 is the precipice, where the Charm refluffs become more numerous and components of the Infernal's anima may start to subtract Yozic iconography in favor of their own. Green Sun Princes with a strong positive Intimacy toward their patrons likely now have a collage of their symbolism on display in their Charm use, rather than that of the patron's greater self - which likely earns them a few extra brownie points with said patrons. Elements of a Devil-Tiger's inner pantheon might also start expressing themselves through his Charms, and their anima and Charms might alter aesthetics multiple times as the Infernal's goals and values shuffle and twist during this pseudo-adolescent phase before the Mythos crystallizes.

Still, @rogthnor's suggestion to make it case-by-case is a pretty good way of letting players tilt the progression to their liking, which is good because this is very much about letting players have more say in how their character's powers look and otherwise control the optics.

 

[BossFight]

I'd say it probably starts happening at either E3 or E4, depending on whether you want it to be something that almost any Green Sun Prince starts developing if they don't die within a few seasons of Exalting, or more of a subtle signifier that the Infernal is starting to "grow up" as they close in on the E5/E6 divide that separates a powerful warlock from a newborn Primordial.

So let's say that at E3, you get very subtle twists, like the visual "language" of one Yozi bleeding into the Charms of another - sparks of Malfean fire inside of Pyrean crystal, or Szoreny's cinnabar flowers blossoming on the grey shoots of Metagaos' swamp. It's minor enough to be mistaken for a sign that the Infernal is acclimatizing to their role as a vessel for the Yozis' collective power, and more ignorant Infernals might not even notice it until someone else points it out to them. At this point, the Coadjutor starts to fade from their anima banner, and is usually completely gone by the time they raise their Essence again.

At E4, that sort of Yozic chimerism becomes more pronounced, to the point where if they go fully totemic you can see crazy smorgasbords like Szorenian branch-limbs made of Pyrean glass and studded with corrosive Kimberian barnacles. Also, some of their Charms start to outright mutate visually towards their proto-Mythos' themes, and this is where loyalist GSPs start visibly showing their favoritism (potentially through displaying the themes of a specific Unquestionable, rather than a Yozi). This is where your Green Sun Nimbus Flare becomes a swarm of flesh-eating locusts or a Volumen Hydrargyros-style blob of murderous mercury.

E5 is the precipice, where the Charm refluffs become more numerous and components of the Infernal's anima may start to subtract Yozic iconography in favor of their own. Green Sun Princes with a strong positive Intimacy toward their patrons likely now have a collage of their symbolism on display in their Charm use, rather than that of the patron's greater self - which likely earns them a few extra brownie points with said patrons. Elements of a Devil-Tiger's inner pantheon might also start expressing themselves through his Charms, and their anima and Charms might alter aesthetics multiple times as the Infernal's goals and values shuffle and twist during this pseudo-adolescent phase before the Mythos crystallizes.

Still, @rogthnor's suggestion to make it case-by-case is a pretty good way of letting players tilt the progression to their liking, which is good because this is very much about letting players have more say in how their character's powers look and otherwise control the optics.

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Yeah, def agree it should be something decided between player and GM. I definitely lean more subtle than @GardenerBriareus seems to for instance, and would only really apply it to combos and charms developed using your new themes, but that's a personal taste thing and there's no reason someone shouldn't be able to go more blatant with it. One of the great strengths of tabletops is their flexibility after all.


As an aside, one of the reasons I want it to apply to signature combos and the like is because they cost more motes. Using Thousand-Fold Typhoon Hands and GSNF to pull of a lightning strike is more expensive than just refluffing GSNF as lightning. This means that when you start to get mote tapped (fatigued) you have to start relying on the component charms instead.

This opens up this great little narrative about how the essence of the Yozi doesn't naturally combine, that its only the Infernal's strength which allows them to force these two opposing forces together. I have this great scene in mind where Denoak the living lightning tries to combine his Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai with his Scarlet Rapture Shintai to take on his namesake lightning form during a tough fight, but he's waited to long and doesn't have the energy to wrangle the two opposing energies together. The Adjoran essence slips from his grasp and so he instead becomes a towering form of brass and flesh as he fights our noble heroes. Mechanically it's just the player deciding to only activate Devil-Tyrant Avatar, but in the story its so much more, and the scene really fits the Infernal theme of being villain coded.

Also a combo is basically a custom charm already, and if you use it often enough that it becomes a signature then its already a natural part of your mythos. Malfeas burns things with green fire, Denoak strikes his foes with blindingly fast radioactive lightning. And of course no two combos are ever the same. Lots of Infernals may have Thousand-Fold Typhoon Hand and GSNF, but only Denoak* mastered them to the point where he can combine the two to develop his own custom technique where the plasma of Malfeas is transmuted into a lightning bolt which carries within it all the blinding speed of Adjoran.

*Denoak's rival, The City Which Swallowed the Sun, has of course developed his own technique to compensate. By using the wind of Adjoran he can compress the flames of Malfeas behind the head of his hammer, keeping them contained until they explode outward and propel his weapon like a rocket into the body of his foes. Mechanically this is also simply a combo of TFTH and GSNF.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

As an aside, one of the reasons I want it to apply to signature combos and the like is because they cost more motes. Using Thousand-Fold Typhoon Hands and GSNF to pull of a lightning strike is more expensive than just refluffing GSNF as lightning. This means that when you start to get mote tapped (fatigued) you have to start relying on the component charms instead.

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Oh. Man, I've been using the anima reactor and multi-Charm activation hacks for so long I forgot those were things.

This opens up this great little narrative about how the essence of the Yozi doesn't naturally combine, that its only the Infernal's strength which allows them to force these two opposing forces together. I have this great scene in mind where Denoak the living lightning tries to combine his Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai with his Scarlet Rapture Shintai to take on his namesake lightning form during a tough fight, but he's waited to long and doesn't have the energy to wrangle the two opposing energies together. The Adjoran essence slips from his grasp and so he instead becomes a towering form of brass and flesh as he fights our noble heroes. Mechanically it's just the player deciding to only activate Devil-Tyrant Avatar, but in the story its so much more, and the scene really fits the Infernal theme of being villain coded.

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That's a pretty cool scene. I suppose you could alter it to fit the anima reactor version by using the fact that, well, even if you're at full Super Saiyan and regenning 12 motes every round, a long fight still means that you'll trend towards only having 12m per round to work with. Denoak's ad hoc lightning-shintai fails because the fighting has depleted his mote pool to the point where he can't save up enough power to pull it off without cutting into his defensive Charm use.

*Denoak's rival, The City Which Swallowed the Sun, has of course developed his own technique to compensate. By using the wind of Adjoran he can compress the flames of Malfeas behind the head of his hammer, keeping them contained until they explode outward and propel his weapon like a rocket into the body of his foes. Mechanically this is also simply a combo of TFTH and GSNF.

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Again, the idea of having commonly-combined Charm uses be personalized "special techniques" made by futzing with Yozic Essence is really neat, and I'm going to steal it for my own use.

 

[BossFight]

Again, the idea of having commonly-combined Charm uses be personalized "special techniques" made by futzing with Yozic Essence is really neat, and I'm going to steal it for my own use.

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Thanks, it grew out of my earlier thoughts on how to go about developing a new charmer for the devil tiger charm which are threadmarked earlier in the thresd.

The TL; DR of it was that people by there very nature aren't going to make optimal use of every charm they have. They're going to find very charms usages and combos which they tend to rely on instead, and that will shape how they deal with problems, developing into their personal myth. Like Hercules is known for his berserker rage and Boruto's grandfather is known for his teleportation jutsu, so too is The City Which Swallows the Sun known for the burning crown above his brow which forces all who hear him to understand the truth of his words and obey him. (That Horrific Wisdom + Crowned with Fury)

 

[ichypa]

To be fair Exalted suffers from the same issues with rocket tag being a noted problem of 2e. Hell, does Exalted even have large scale society building rules? I honestly can't remember.

I do know I tried to cobble together some organization mechanics for Exalted using the Reign 'Company Rules' way back when. Hmm, I'll need to see about digging those up and seeing how they look now after all this time.

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There's the Creation-Ruling Mandate system, but I have no idea how usable that is.

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The fact that rules for creating/impacting and being impacted by societies and social groups are not a part of the core system rules is one of the more damning flaws in Exalted's mechanics imo, given that it's a game about being demigods with the capacity and the will to reshape the world around themselves.

 

[greensun]

Qaf should be SEELE, Orochimaru, Voldemort, Olivia Pierce (of NuDoom fame) and the bad guy who made the Homucluous in Full-Metal Alchemist.

Every villian who wanted to become more, to ascend beyond their limits and to reinvent themselves, gain mastery, achieve immortality or to change the world into one more to their liking etc. Often they will help their subordinates to achieve their own, often more limited, enlightenment or growth. But often they are used and discarded as suits their master.

Look to Orochimaru; the Sound Four were very competent and powerful, their training must have taken time and effort on Orochimaru's part - the material costs of housing and their equipment would have been high. They were elite Ninja, made stronger by the unholy power of the Cursed Seal. Such assets wouldn't be discarded casually. But as soon as the potential to further his own personal prowess arises, their lives were spent without hesitation on the Snake-Lord's part - like pebbles cast aside.

That's what you'll be looking for - a villian who enlightens and uplifts (but only so much) his followers so that they may aid his own enlightenment. But who also discards them without a thought when the time comes. He's not Szorenzy, who needs the attention, needs people to notice him. His students are their to learn and improve themselves so that they might better serve him, not to gratify his ego.

Heck, Thanos works as well - he wanted to change the world to his vision, and he had an army of loyal followers who he sacrificed to fuel his ambition. His relationship with Gamora and Nebula are another example; he disregarded Nebula and was cruel and callous to her, while Gamora was his favourite because of her skill and talent. He was considerate to her - he listened to her opnion and argued against it. We know that Nebula wouldn't have gotten the same consideration.

He loved her, as much as a person like him could, and he still sacrificed her for his own goals.

Qaf is the villian that says no sacrifice is too great, that the ends justify the means.

 

[QafianSage]

Qaf should be SEELE, Orochimaru, Voldemort, Olivia Pierce (of NuDoom fame) and the bad guy who made the Homucluous in Full-Metal Alchemist.

Every villian who wanted to become more, to ascend beyond their limits and to reinvent themselves, gain mastery, achieve immortality or to change the wold into one more to their liking etc. Often they will help their subordinates to achieve their own, often more limited, enlightenment or growth. But often they are used and discarded as suits their master.

Look to Orochimaru; the Sound Four were very competent and powerful, their training must have taken time and effort on Orochimaru's part - the material costs of housing and their equipment would have been high. They were elite Ninja, made stronger by the unholy power of the Cursed Seal. Such assets wouldn't be discarded casually. But as soon as the potential to further his own personal prowess, their lives were spent without hesitation on the Snake-Lord's part - like pebbles cast aside.

That's what you'll be looking for - a villian who enlightens and uplifts (but only so much) his followers so that they may aid his own enlightenment. But who also discards them without a thought when the time comes. He's not Szorenzy, who needs the attention, needs people to notice him. His students are their to learn and improve themselves so that they might better serve him, not to gratify his ego.

Heck, Thanos works as well - he wanted to change the world to his vision, and he had an army of loyal followers who he sacrificed to fuel his ambition. His relationship with Gamora and Nebula are another example; he disregarded Nebula and was cruel and callous to her, while Gamora was his favourite because of her skill and talent. He was considerate to her - he listened to her opnion and argued against it. We know that Nebula wouldn't have gotten the same consideration.

He loved her, as much as a person like him could, and he still sacrificed her for his own goals.

Qaf is the villian that says no sacrifice is too great, that the ends justify the means.

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Well, the current Excellency has been adapted more towards that kind of thing, and an important part of his charms is going to be that, in the excellent words of @GardenerBriareus:

Qaf's teachings are harmful to humans, but beneficial for creatures of Hell: this is because mortals who seek to learn from the Sage Paramount either fail and die, or succeed and cease to be mortals.

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Examples of that 'becoming' that we've thought of so far include:

a student whose body petrifies into pumice-like stone - it's stronger than mortal flesh, but it also heals slowly and leaves him numb to anything but the most extreme sensations.

Another begins to shrink in upon himself, becoming an emaciated pygmy as he discards the elements of himself that he considers "impure"; if he lives long enough to undergo a rite of apotheosis, and is enlightened enough to survive it, his shriveled form tears open and he emerges as a six-limbed behemoth with jewelled eyes and moth-wings that wrap around him like a cloak.

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The idea is that Qaf has charms which, instead of allowing ascension into the ranks of demonkind ala Oramus' Ascension's Lullaby, allow a student to work themselves into their own unique form of akuma/behemothood, using Revlid's Mutation system.

FIRST QAFIAN EXCELLENCY - ESSENCE OVERWHELMING

Cost: 1m per dice; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Reflexive (Step 1 for attacker, Step 2 for defender)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: None
Since he arose in primordial chaos, Qaf has been consumed by a hunger for meaning. Observant and rigorous, he seeks ever-more knowledge in the hope that he might divine a reason for being through deep contemplation of the world as it is, discarding falsehoods, self-deception and base needs with equal contempt. The existence of the Heaven-Violating Spear is an endless quest, and he is entirely devoted to his goals. He scorns morality in his search, for though he is not sadistic he is rapacious, and the lives and minds of the unenlightened are insignificant to him in comparison to that goal. The Peak Insurmountable conceals his desperation behind a facade of serenity and enlightenment, deceiving others into believing he has already attained what he seeks. Others follow in his footsteps and, although they may learn from his example or suffering through the results of his negligence he does not teach those who study at his foot, merely cultivating their reverence of him that he might make use of them when doing so would further his goals.

This charm may always be used to enhance actions that forgo easy solutions in favour of true accomplishment, to learn without a teacher or to rise above one's bodily concerns to seek a higher purpose. It may never be used to enhance an action which prioritises material concerns over the gain of knowledge or understanding, which directly instructs or which acknowledges another as a superior in enlightenment.

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[beowolf]

. I have this great scene in mind where Denoak the living lightning tries to combine his Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai with his Scarlet Rapture Shintai to take on his namesake lightning form during a tough fight, but he's waited to long and doesn't have the energy to wrangle the two opposing energies together.

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Shintai are Form type charms. I'm not saying you can't house rule that they can be activated simultaneously, but they're really effing strong, so I'd be very hesitant to remove their main balancing factor.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Qaf should be SEELE, Orochimaru, Voldemort, Olivia Pierce (of NuDoom fame) and the bad guy who made the Homucluous in Full-Metal Alchemist.

Every villian who wanted to become more, to ascend beyond their limits and to reinvent themselves, gain mastery, achieve immortality or to change the wold into one more to their liking etc. Often they will help their subordinates to achieve their own, often more limited, enlightenment or growth. But often they are used and discarded as suits their master.

Look to Orochimaru; the Sound Four were very competent and powerful, their training must have taken time and effort on Orochimaru's part - the material costs of housing and their equipment would have been high. They were elite Ninja, made stronger by the unholy power of the Cursed Seal. Such assets wouldn't be discarded casually. But as soon as the potential to further his own personal prowess, their lives were spent without hesitation on the Snake-Lord's part - like pebbles cast aside.

That's what you'll be looking for - a villian who enlightens and uplifts (but only so much) his followers so that they may aid his own enlightenment. But who also discards them without a thought when the time comes. He's not Szorenzy, who needs the attention, needs people to notice him. His students are their to learn and improve themselves so that they might better serve him, not to gratify his ego.

Heck, Thanos works as well - he wanted to change the world to his vision, and he had an army of loyal followers who he sacrificed to fuel his ambition. His relationship with Gamora and Nebula are another example; he disregarded Nebula and was cruel and callous to her, while Gamora was his favourite because of her skill and talent. He was considerate to her - he listened to her opnion and argued against it. We know that Nebula wouldn't have gotten the same consideration.

He loved her, as much as a person like him could, and he still sacrificed her for his own goals.

Qaf is the villian that says no sacrifice is too great, that the ends justify the means.

Click to shrink...

Now that? That's much better. That's pretty well defined something you can actually build a Yozi from. And because you have an archetype, you can start building things from it. That's more important than the Excellency - the Excellency is a later step

Now, the next step should be, rather than directly putting Charms down, should be to start trying to establish the broad themes and aesthetics of the Charmset, because that'll start defining the branches that will eventually become Charms.

Something like this post, which basically turned into my concept document for Szoreny. Notice how quite a lot of the ideas made it it - but likewise, a bunch of them didn't. Some of them were superfluous, some of them were too hard to get working, some of them I had better ideas for. At this stage, you need to be ready to discard bits of the Charmset that just don't work out.

Also, the other thing I'd emphasise is that you need to justify the Yozi's existence as a charmset in its own right. That means cloning effects that already exist in other Yozis as central elements is a big no-no. Trying to focus around "turning people into demons", for example, is a bad idea because now that exists in two different Yozis already which cover different thematic niches, and I don't think there's really much room for a third. If you can't claw out your own niche and interesting things that get people going "I want that!" then no, you can't support a Yozi.