@notanautomaton I'd be interested, if you are willing to intitiate a complete noob into this game.
I've got a lot of Exalted books from my brother, including the 3e core book so i got that mostly covered, but i never had a chance to actually play it.

My first pitch for a character would be a Jafar-type puppet master, who uses mind whammying sorcery and a demonic entourage to gain power and build himself an empire of proxy rulers who are poised to take the fall should things go pear-shaped.
I recently read the Black and White Treatise and i marvel at the kind of precise low risk brainwashing one can do with it.
 
My first pitch for a character would be a Jafar-type puppet master, who uses mind whammying sorcery and a demonic entourage to gain power and build himself an empire of proxy rulers who are poised to take the fall should things go pear-shaped.
I recently read the Black and White Treatise and i marvel at the kind of precise low risk brainwashing one can do with it.
What Host and Caste/Aspect? What location?
 
as for representing aspects of lieger i do take a lot of liberties with this so bear with me, and please if you have suggestions on how i can do a better job at this i would be very much appreciative hearing them since i want to make the fiction the best it can be as well.

Honestly I think the issue's less in the specifics than in the structure. I tend to try and follow (with some degrees of success and self-indulgence :V) Escorp's models for designing demons and shit. Y'don't have to follow it as gospel or anything like that but it provides a pretty solid skeleton for organizing your thoughts around. Fundamentally stuff like demons doesn't exist just to exist, it exists to (at least hypothetically) be used. So in light of that you want your fiction and fluff to at least hit a few main points. 1. What is his personality/appearance (like what's it like to physically interact with this guy), 2. What's his relationship like with his 3CD, 3. How does he express his role in his (ex)-3CD's hierarchy, 4. Just a sort of laying out of "why you would want to talk to this dude".

I'll note though that as a general rule "change for the sake of change" often comes across as...like. It doesn't really say a lot and can pretty easily give way to sorta whimsical whatever-the-fuck. Change in service to some ideal is usually better because it informs at least some other aspects of behavior. Basically just articulating "he likes x and here's y". He likes change because he feels the Primordials are inherently stagnant is a good starting point but it needs to be tied in more strongly with who he is and what he does ('cause with demons that's often one and the same).

Although I would dispute the idea that Ligier's Empire of the Green Sun is built out of pity necessarily. The dude's got an ego on him and the whole grand project is basically him playing house, fantasizing and working out everything just right so that when he retakes Creation (which he has no real idea how to do) he'll know exactly what to do to make it Perfect. It speaks to Ligier as a guy who makes things and does things versus a guy who meticulously plans things. Having a comprehensive, well thought out plan for what he's going to make Creation like is a good thing for an aspiring conquerer to have! He's just not really sure how to go about the whole "conquest" bit and hasn't really tripped over (or made) any magic bullets in the few thousand years he's been trapped beneath his dad's ribs.

As for the first circle demons, this is a part i will protest about as i feel it is a bit of a misunderstanding of them, but also disagrees with what u think first circle demons represent, but thats fine, we don't all have to agree on these things.

Well it more goes back to the general design principles I think. First Circle Demons are designed as tools by 2CDs, employed as tools in Malfeas, and summoned as tools by Sorcerers. They're mass produced workers and laborers and servants of some sort or fashion. It's not necessarily about being benevolent exactly so much as the fact that even their benevolence or good intentions is filtered through the lens of "this is what I am and this is what I was made to do". Demons who manage to break this mold are usually able to attain citizenship.
 
@TenfoldShields wow thats a lot of great information, i just got done reading the link you posted and i think i'm going to have a good time combining that info with what i've learned from the devs and what you helped me figure out in the other post, i can definitely understand why escorp would think that first circle demons should look funky, especially with the way that a lot of demons like the deer who hunt men look, but i think having that be the rule kind of robs the demons who look explicitly weird of their inherent weirdness as it becomes the norm for them.
Also really appreciate your thoughts on how to change the characterization of the demon/former demon's motivations.(i asked the devs about this specifically due to our conversation and vance's thoughts were that the titles of demon and god and the like were based on context and presented the possibility that demons might not think of C'al as a demon any longer which was interesting) I'm going to try to type something up in the morning and share the updated fiction on here after that, I hope I can look forward to your comments on it when i do.
 
What Host and Caste/Aspect? What location?

Depending on whether you allow Devil Tiger i'd go with a Defiler, who uses those puppet kindoms as resources to fuel his sorcerous experiments and ultimatly his ascension.
But a Malefactor who enjoys how easy effective governing can be, when everyone is but a puppet dancing to his tune, would also be an option

As for where i would probably start in the south, but i could see him relocating somewhere else when things go out of hand.
 
Honestly I think the issue's less in the specifics than in the structure. I tend to try and follow (with some degrees of success and self-indulgence :V) Escorp's models for designing demons and shit. Y'don't have to follow it as gospel or anything like that but it provides a pretty solid skeleton for organizing your thoughts around. Fundamentally stuff like demons doesn't exist just to exist, it exists to (at least hypothetically) be used. So in light of that you want your fiction and fluff to at least hit a few main points. 1. What is his personality/appearance (like what's it like to physically interact with this guy), 2. What's his relationship like with his 3CD, 3. How does he express his role in his (ex)-3CD's hierarchy, 4. Just a sort of laying out of "why you would want to talk to this dude".

Indeed. Take this one, who I just wrote up on a whim:

Zabah, the Gargoyle Duchess
Demon of the Second Circle
Wisdom Soul of the Scar of Empires


Upon the heights of Hidrae, Zabah rules supreme, and from this homeground she seeks to expand her domain over the rooftops of Malfeas. Eight foot tall at the shoulder, with black basalt skin and verdigris horns, she rules the stony creatures of the heights with a brutal clawed hand. One of her arms was lost in a duel, and a replacement of living brass has taken its place. She can exhale a lethal cloud of lung-shredding ash, or take a man's head with the great daiklaive strapped to her muscular tail. Despite her incredible bulk, her colossal wings can bear her aloft, though she moves from place to place in a flickering motion of stops and starts. Copper takes on her verdigris'd nature when she touches it, and thunderclouds gather overhead.

The laws that Zabah inflicts upon her rooftop realm are the laws of the street; violence must be met with violence, generosity with generosity, and those who betray their fellows for their own gain are the worst filth. All must pierce, brand or tattoo their flesh to declare their allegiance to the world, for loyalty untested by pain is worthless. When Zabah flies through her domain she is escorted by countless winged demons who beat drums and let the wind catch the wind in pipes tied to their wings. It is said that this sounds much like the screaming of men and the beating of hearts - and that her war-drums can cause heart-attacks out of fear.

For a thousand years, Zabah has both warred with and loved Nidamento, the Hidden Langrave of the Blood-Red Moon. They are much of a likeness in both their ugliness and their love of flight, and Nidamento's elegant flights have smashed time and time again into the savage mobs of Zabah. Such bloody foreplay only feeds their secret romance, and their hideous bastards shriek and holler from the spires of Zabah's domain.

Sorcerers call upon Zabah as a flying monstrosity, and care not for her laws. The Gargoyle Duchess can smash down the gates to a city wall and shrug off arrows with her stone skin, or fly over enemy fortifications and snatch up men and siege weapons alike. The presence of one with no loyalty to another being abhors her, and she gains one Limit for each scene she is forced to remain in their presence. Zabah can escape the Demon Realm when the custodian of an ancient city betrays his lord while wearing his colours. Such infidelity grants his soul to Zabah, who takes the place of one of the statuary of the heights.
 
So, i have been thinking a bit about mote regen rules, and my problems with them.

First of, what are limited mote pools for? The obvious answer, of course, is that they are there so that Exalts can be defeated by attrition. So that long battles (or other exhausting action) takes a dent to their effectivity. So that Sun Wukong and Zhu Bajie have to interrupt their battle after both are exhausted and start again at the next day.

But the problem is, with mote regen as it is, while you can mote-tape an enemy, there is no way to keep it mote-taped. In 2e, you just have to make a few random stunts after the battle ends. With ES anima-reactor rules, you just need to wait a bit. (Because, although there is an incentive not to flare your anima, there is no reason not to keep it on after you have already done it).

Ex3 avoids the problems by flatly saying that mote regen happens in battle just because, and ends with the combat. But, honestly, that's a rather un-elegant solution.

I think is better if, instead of mote regen, you get a mote discount. That is, instead of regaining x motes, you can spend x motes in charms in that round without draining your pool. This doesn't affect you in combat or other stressful scenes (Since you where probably going to use those x motes anyway) but it means you can't regen your pool quickly .You need to spend some hours meditating and respirating motes and such.
 
But the problem is, with mote regen as it is, while you can mote-tape an enemy, there is no way to keep it mote-taped. In 2e, you just have to make a few random stunts after the battle ends. With ES anima-reactor rules, you just need to wait a bit. (Because, although there is an incentive not to flare your anima, there is no reason not to keep it on after you have already done it).
Not that I can claim more than a passing familiarity with those houserules, but if I'm correct, EarthScorpion added heavy fatigue penalties for long-term flaring for just such a reason. (It also serves to give you a reason to invest in physical stats that aren't...I think Dexterity and part of Strength became Physique.)
 
So, i have been thinking a bit about mote regen rules, and my problems with them.

First of, what are limited mote pools for? The obvious answer, of course, is that they are there so that Exalts can be defeated by attrition. So that long battles (or other exhausting action) takes a dent to their effectivity. So that Sun Wukong and Zhu Bajie have to interrupt their battle after both are exhausted and start again at the next day.

But the problem is, with mote regen as it is, while you can mote-tape an enemy, there is no way to keep it mote-taped. In 2e, you just have to make a few random stunts after the battle ends. With ES anima-reactor rules, you just need to wait a bit. (Because, although there is an incentive not to flare your anima, there is no reason not to keep it on after you have already done it).

Ex3 avoids the problems by flatly saying that mote regen happens in battle just because, and ends with the combat. But, honestly, that's a rather un-elegant solution.

I think is better if, instead of mote regen, you get a mote discount. That is, instead of regaining x motes, you can spend x motes in charms in that round without draining your pool. This doesn't affect you in combat or other stressful scenes (Since you where probably going to use those x motes anyway) but it means you can't regen your pool quickly .You need to spend some hours meditating and respirating motes and such.

It's worth remembering that 2e combat was meant to be very granular and TCG-like, so motes were 'mana' in the same vein as MtG, though obviously less elegant. I think we should also remember that At-Table Exalted is a lot different than IRC or forum-based, so for all we know, combat in-person actually flows better.

This is also tangential to the issue that most people who run combat tend not to diversify the objectives, it's almost always 'Kill the other guy'. Usually because that's the easiest option or the only option.

Anyway, part of why limited mote pools are a thing, from a design perspective, is to prevent complacency- if you run out of resources, you have to carefully manage how they're spent. Giant 6+ charm doomcombos are meant to be the Exception, not the rule of Exalted, but due to how the mechanics shook out, they became standard.

There's more that could be discussed on the topic, but I'm not sure where to start...
 
So, i have been thinking a bit about mote regen rules, and my problems with them.

First of, what are limited mote pools for? The obvious answer, of course, is that they are there so that Exalts can be defeated by attrition. So that long battles (or other exhausting action) takes a dent to their effectivity. So that Sun Wukong and Zhu Bajie have to interrupt their battle after both are exhausted and start again at the next day.

But the problem is, with mote regen as it is, while you can mote-tape an enemy, there is no way to keep it mote-taped. In 2e, you just have to make a few random stunts after the battle ends. With ES anima-reactor rules, you just need to wait a bit. (Because, although there is an incentive not to flare your anima, there is no reason not to keep it on after you have already done it).

Ex3 avoids the problems by flatly saying that mote regen happens in battle just because, and ends with the combat. But, honestly, that's a rather un-elegant solution.

I think is better if, instead of mote regen, you get a mote discount. That is, instead of regaining x motes, you can spend x motes in charms in that round without draining your pool. This doesn't affect you in combat or other stressful scenes (Since you where probably going to use those x motes anyway) but it means you can't regen your pool quickly .You need to spend some hours meditating and respirating motes and such.

This is exactly how Aberrant 2.0 handles quantum expenditures FYI. You get to use X points worth of powers free, and that covers the use of about 1 power per round and maybe a maintenance power or two, but anything else and you start digging into a rather small reserve.
 
I think is better if, instead of mote regen, you get a mote discount. That is, instead of regaining x motes, you can spend x motes in charms in that round without draining your pool.

I like this and would be able to handle it, but I've found that adding another type of mathematical operation tends to slow down play a lot.

One other method I tried was increasing default regen to 10m, but make all committed costs lower the regen value by 1m per 4m of normal commit cost. This included artifacts.

I think we should also remember that At-Table Exalted is a lot different than IRC or forum-based, so for all we know, combat in-person actually flows better.

Almost all of my experience comes from au the table, in person, Exalted and combat is just as bad as many make it out to be in forums or irc. Though, it will often resolve more quickly because the other players will hassle someone taking a long time.

It tended to become less ccg like in my experience because very few players bother remembering all of the different Charms they could use. So most wound up with 2 or 3 different combo types, and that was for heavy combat characters. The math effort and time costof adding up most costs for different Charms and excellencies made it hard to use too many.

They'd use whatever the dominant combat combo at their current tier was and figure out a new one when it needed to happen.

Combat typically processed along this path. The only way to avoid it was to have everyone purposefully decide to not go into the options that bumped general combat to the next tier.

1 Seeking edges: At this stage, peer opponents would have similar dice polls and equipment dominated a character's combat effectiveness. Combats were normally decided by seeking edges small enough to tip the scales without spending all of their resources or risking too much (coordinated attacks, flurries, terrestrial martial arts, etc).

Combat was incredibly fun and quick to resolve because most edges had counters. Mortal and spirit blooded games spent most of their time here and low essence, low resources DB games could live here as well.

2 Rocket tag: One of the edges from before has become potent enough that instead of giving a bonus, it resolves the combat all by itself. Grand killsticks and extra action Charms were the worst offenders regarding moving to this tier.

Combat is incredibly fast and lethal with initiative and action economy dominating all other options. Whoever gets their kill combo off first wins because offense dominates defense. The tension was fun, in small doses.

Mid essence DBs and low essence celestials lived in this region. A lot of gm fiat was needed for peer level opponents to not splatter characters.

There's still a decent amount of character diversity and charm use because there are a while host of different one shot effects. One character might use a grand killstick, the next an unexpected attack, and a third a crippling charm. You'll die before you run out of motes, so cost is no problem.

3 Perfect or die. Reliable perfect defenses, against each attack tag, enter the picture. Now the main goal is to mote tap your opponent, with extra action Charms being the dominant strategy. You may also find a tag which they have no perfect against, in which case it's back to phase 2.

Starting Adamant and mid essence celestials wind up here. Combat can still be fun, but it's starting to become a drag because only weak attacks that're unlikely to knock someone out of their - 0s will land. Everyone will gravitate to the cheapest one shot ability because your mote pool is now your HP.

4 Paranoia Combat: I think enough has been said about this already. It sucks and I will never again run a high essence celestial or mid essence adamant game in 2.x- that uses the default combat engine -because of it.
 
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I like this and would be able to handle it, but I've found that adding another type of mathematical operation tends to slow down play a lot.

It really doesn't, though?

I mean, you aren't adding more maths, you are just susbstituting one kind of math with another. Instead of adding x motes to your pool, you just substract x motes less when using charms.
 
It really doesn't, though?

I mean, you aren't adding more maths, you are just susbstituting one kind of math with another. Instead of adding x motes to your pool, you just substract x motes less when using charms.

That's a trivial operation for me and many of my players, it may also be for your group, but I've found that the additional step does become important for a lot of people because they have to preform the operation separately.

The difference between

Pf​ = Pi​ - c1​ - c2​... - cn​ + 5

And

Pf​ = Pi​ - (c1​ + c2​... + cn​ - 5)

It adds another number that needs to be held in their head, because a mote discount will never result in you having more motes than you started with, and adds a second operation to calculating the number spent because they can't just keep counting current mote pool down as they use Charms.

When using discounts in other systems, Shadowrun and mage being the most common, the discount frequently has to be remembered at the end or a partial discount remembered as they go along with their action, which takes up mental processing time and causes 'oops, need to start counting again from the beginning' mistakes.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I rather like it, but this is something that I've seen add a bunch of extra time /frustration before. Though, all of this would primarily apply to at table, multi person games where this can add up.
 
Question: Is Nightingale style + Performance charms, especially stuff like trance of fuge vision, really as good as it seems to be?

Also, could you use stealth charms + the voice thowing and mimicry charms to have a character be assulted by his own hard words burning themselves into him from all around him? because that would be Rad.
 
I think is better if, instead of mote regen, you get a mote discount. That is, instead of regaining x motes, you can spend x motes in charms in that round without draining your pool. This doesn't affect you in combat or other stressful scenes (Since you where probably going to use those x motes anyway) but it means you can't regen your pool quickly .You need to spend some hours meditating and respirating motes and such.

A mathematically more elegant way of that would be to cut peripheral essence way down - maybe only 5-10m - and make that the fast-recharging pool. Every action, your peripheral pool recharges to max. Then the personal pool is the long term pool, that requires rest to recharge. That's mathematically equivalent to "you have 5-10m of discounted charms", but simpler to handle since you just pay for things first out of your peripheral pool and when that's empty you have to dip into your personal pool.

(if you hybridise that with anima-reactor, then the anima increases the size of your peripheral pool when you flare it)
 
PACT (•-•••••)

The spirits of Creation, the demon-lords of Hell, the counts of the Dead and the princes of Chaos all have power and wisdom for those willing to make the sacrifices required to obtain it. Ambitious men implore Hell for demon-spawn to make up their armies and for the aristocracy of Malfeas to tend to their every whim. Queens venture to the Underworld and return laden with tarnished grave gold and with the ghost of their lover restored to her body - not quite alive, but a fascimile thereof. And tribal magicians across the fringes of Creation know how to barter with the greater powers of the Wyld for wonders. Such power always comes at a price, but many are willing to pay it.

Certain ancient contracts provide ritual formulae for known bargains with the spirits. Others call up an image of the spirit or venture to them in person to make good their deal. The old rituals are a known quantity, but ambitious men have often believed that they could negotitate a better deal in person. Sometimes they are even right.

The Pact can last for a fixed period of time, until the character or the patron chooses to end it in some pre-determined way, or for the duration of a certain task.

This background provides all the benefits of an equivalently-rated Mentor - this represents the knowledge and teaching the spirit is willing to provide.
The character may speak with their patron in their dreams, allowing them to serve as a Mentor even when they're in another realm of existence. Additionally, it also provides a number of background dots equal to Pact, which the character may assign and reassign to a range of other backgrounds negotiated at the time of the pact - commonly including things like Abyssal Command, Allies, Artefacts, Contacts, Demonic Familiar, Familiar, Followers, Spies, Resources and other such things. These backgrounds must be in theme for the spirit patron and must be something they can grant - for example, unless Ligier has a way to access Creation, he cannot serve as an Ally in person - but may send one of his easier-to-escape Second Circles to aid the character instead.

Drawback: A Pact is a merchantile exchange, born of self-interest, not generosity. The spirits demand payment for their aid. Spirits will not offer or agree to pacts that act too far against their own interests, even if the Background costs balance out.

Firstly, this pact serves to permit spirits from outside Creation - such as the princes of chaos, demons and the Dead - access to the world. Demons enjoy additional escape conditions, chaos-beings hide from the calcification of Creation within the letter of the law, and the Dead may ignore certain banes and bypass thresholds as they have been invited in. Even gods pacted to an Exalt are permitted to go outside the scope of their duties, as they borrow the authority of the princes of the Earth.

Secondly, at the time of the negotiation of the Pact, the form of payment must also be agreed upon. The character must provide - in one way or another - the spirit with a Background equal to the rating of the pact, or optionally a Background equal to (Pact -1) once a year for Pacts lasting at least 5 years. Traditionally for demons and the Dead, this must be paid on Calibration or the new moon. For example, the mad green sun of Hell might, in return for Pact 4, demand 100 human souls be tithed to him every Calibration - which is equivalent to Followers 3. The Mask of Winters might put as a condition for his Pact 3 with an ambitious Dynast that she steals a certain storied grand goremaul with a history dating back to the Great Rebellion before he will provide any aid. Failure to live up to the terms of the Pact break ancient laws woven into Creation by the Primordials incurring consequences as if the character had broken an Eclipse oath sworn by an Eclipse with Essence equal to Pact, and also make an enemy of the spirit.

Thirdly and finally, a Pact implies no particular loyalty or friendship. A Pact is a joining of two partners - not master and servant. A demon Pacted to serve as a familiar is not mechanically a familiar and does not automatically obey the character as a bound demon would. Characters would do well to remember this.

::SIDEBAR - Spiritual Resources::

The fabulous wealth of the spirits means the Resources Background is worth less to them. For the purposes of the Pact background, Resources is counted as being two-dots lower rated both as a boon and a cost. Wealth enough to live like a king (Resources 5) can be obtained with a 3-dot Pact, while on the other hand a sizable gem (Resources 4) is only enough to pay off minor services from a 2-dot Pact. How many merchant princes have considered these inequitable terms, and decided that one hundred slaves tithed to the Lords of Death or the dukes of Hell is an excellent deal for years of fortune?

::END SIDEBAR::
 
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Failure to live up to the terms of the Pact break ancient laws woven into Creation by the Primordials incurring consequences as if the character had broken an Eclipse oath sworn by an Eclipse with Essence equal to Pact, and also make an enemy of the spirit.
Do the repercussions still affect you if the spirit hasn't provided any benefits to be reneged on?

For instance, if the Dynast fails to steal the Grand Goremaul will she suffer as if she broke pact even though the Mask didn't provide anything?
 
Hmm. Not sure I like the Eclipse Oath breaking conditions. I put that in provisionally so there's teeth to the thing (because it serves a similar purpose to Leige and Infamy's "you have to spend a certain amount of time working for your bosses"), but maybe it's too reliable a punishment for cheating the devil.

Hmm. I'll leave it in for now, unless I or someone else comes up with a better idea.

Do the repercussions still affect you if the spirit hasn't provided any benefits to be reneged on?

For instance, if the Dynast fails to steal the Grand Goremaul will she suffer as if she broke pact even though the Mask didn't provide anything?

Depends on the precise phrasing of their agreement. Basically, once you have the Background on your sheet, you're party to the pact. Until that point, you're just considering it.

This is why people going into dealing with demons when they know what they're doing prefer to pay in advance, while it's the desperate people who accept deals on credit.
 
Bit of an odd question, but if you were building an Infernal who had Devil Tyrant Avatar Shintai, what mutations would you pick?
Some kind of overly sized monster, preferably animalistic and capable of underground movement/swimming at a good speed.

Ideally a huge Basalt vaguely draconic wyrm with metal teeth that is so big it shatters most buildings IG.

maybe it's too reliable a punishment for cheating the devil.
How about having it so that you roll [Pact dots] die when breaking the oath and all successes count as Eclipse style botches.

Then we can have story arcs interact with that, so a story arc to, say, get in good with the Underworld so that Ligier can't smite you as easily as he could before, and that gives you a -1 on the Pact roll when you betray it, while failing miserably increases the stakes and gets you a +1?

It isn't reliable and allows characters to cheat their patrons if they are willing to risk offending them and prepare for it in story.
 
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