...at which point you're still kind of missing the point? Like, the world is supposed to be changing, and part of it is that the Realm kinda, you know, sucked? It might be better than some alternatives and different homebrewers will fall in different shades of how they treat the Realm, sure, but 'Empress disappears, Solars come back, Infernals and Abyssals also come back' is pretty central to it? Have 'Empress Disappears and no it's actually a great thing for the oppressive Realm, which now has EVEN MORE resources to hunt down the Solars' and it seems like you're missing the point?

Perhaps, I am missing the point. Perhaps I am trying to arrive at different than canon. I wanted ruthless, supernaturally efficient Realm for my campaigns world. Also, with resurgence of Solars and creation of Abyssals, the Realm is doomed. It will just take longer and PCs won't get an option to "just wait, Dragon-blooded will kill each other. Ha ha, what a morons".
Especially the part where "more efficient" suddenly means that, apparently, people turn to its side so it gets even closer to conquest.


You mean they lost key super-weapon and numbers of their most dangerous enemies just shoot through the roof? Things are not going better for the Realm. Also:

Unless the point of the whole game was to stop the Realm, that feels a little too much like, well. Making up a scenario where things get better for the Realm with no real downsides. IE: kinda wank?

Lookshy-Realm merging into Restored Shogunate was premise for specific campaign. Few things that snowballed in total war in Scavenger Lands. So, yes, the whole game boiled down to stopping Realm...until one of the Deathlord allies unleashed zombie apocalypse with exponential growth curve (and PCs didn't know which, both Mask and Walker blaming the other) and it turned into even more glorious mess.
 
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Yeah, "the empire going to explode after SE disappearance" needs to die in fire. I always made fallowing changes to Realm fluff:

[STUFF]

The books on the Realm, particularly 1e's The Dragon-Blooded, went to great lengths to explain the Empress' policy of deliberate division and misrule to maintain her personal control at the expense of efficiency. It worked while the Empress was around, but now chickens are coming home to roost, because everything has been set up to implode without her continued guidance.

I submit that, from the perspective of a story set in the canon timeline, the entire point of the Scarlet Empire is that it's ending. Your Dragon-Blooded characters can fight against the odds to prop up the corrupt empire, or to reform it, or reconquer it, or just loot what spoils you can while the going is good. The Realm is right in the middle of its interesting times, and that's the best time for a story in which unlikely heroes take the stage.

I don't think changing the setting to provide a stable continuity of empire actually helps.
 
The Anarchy of the South West

South of Nightfall Island and west of the Wailing Fen, large-scale governance is largely extinct in the far South West. Hundreds of archipelagos and island chains scatter the shallow seas and disappear out into the endless waters of the West. Many of these islands are lush, fertile and volcanic, while others are coral reefs with a thin coating of soil; some measure hundreds of miles across, while others are smaller than a mile and only have room for a single village. The Anarchy is a fractious region, where pirate lords replace the mounted aristocrats of other lands and rule by mastery of the sea rather than mastery of the horse. As one heads south, the number of Terrestrials falls sharply and the local tribes of the sweltering islands instead war and feud with no less violence than the pirate-nobility.

Three hundred years ago, this region was under the control of the Blue Monkey Shogunate and ruled over by loyal damiyos of the Shogun. However, when the Third Scarlet laid waste to the Shogunate and executed the last boy-Shogun, those lords were hunted down by the Imperial Navy if they did not present themselves to the Scarlet Emperor and swear personal loyalty. In the resultant power vacuum, the surviving power-hungry Dragonblooded turned on each other, and broken Gens tore themselves apart, fighting over trade routes. Some Dragonblooded conveniently discovered bloodline ties to Houses of the Realm seeking adoption and avoided the choice of the Razor or the Coin, but most instead grabbed what islands they could as petty warlords.

In the present day, the Anarchy exists on the periphery of the Realm's attentions. If the trading routes that bring rare spices, fine furs and slaves from the Far South West were interrupted, it might pay more attention - but as it is, those Dynasts with commercial interests find that the pirate-lords can be hired for much less than a conquest. Pay such men to acquire tiger furs, cinnamon and nutmeg and they will do so, and several Dynasts have found profitable arrangements with outcaste families who protect their trading posts and deliver the goods to the North. Certainly, it is easier than dealing with the intricate webs of pirate-clans, ancestor-cultist cannibals, Tengese triads, and of course the dreaded Lintha.

Culture

To accurately describe the full range of societies of these pirate-lords domains and tiny principalities would take years, and in that time the entire work would have been rendered obsolete. However, there are broad patterns of the states and families that generally hold true, and most works describe the local cultures separate them into three kinds; daimyo cultures, pirate cultures and tribal cultures.

Most of the largest powers in the region are daimyo cultures and inheritors of some degree of cultural continuity from the Blue Monkey Shogunate. Such states are usually oligarchies or monarchies, ruled over by families with some degree of dragon blood and a line of inheritance which - they claim - they can trace back to some family or another from the Shogunate. Such states tend to be in the marginally cooler north of the Anarchy, where they can grow similar breeds of rice to those found in An Teng. These are noted for their fondness for building castles or fortifying the old Shogunate ruins that litter many coastlines, and so these fortifications provide some measure of safety from raiders. The mountainous terrain of the larger volcanic islands breaks up the coastline, and few of the islands are unified, instead producing fractious clans who claim fertile valleys and the vital teak for shipbuilding.

It is said by some that a pirate culture is a daimyo culture without a good bloodline, and there is some truth to that. The lines between the two are blurred, with a fair degree of passing of customs in both directions. Generally speaking, pirate lords lack the extensive rice paddies that daimyo cultures display, and so are more flexible. Food comes from the ocean, is plucked from mangrove swamps, or made from upland yams and sweet potatoes. These societies live by the ocean, and some even dwell entirely on floating islands of vegetation or - in the case of the infamous Lintha and some others - upon monstrous creatures who travel the South Western waters. They are usually relatively cosmopolitan - in their own way - and can be autocratic, oligarchal, or democratic. Certainly, many are far more egalitarian than the daimyo cultures.

Tribal cultures are those that have evolved in relative isolation, whether because of how far South they are, their distance from trade routes, or because they are in the broken terrain of some of the larger islands and remain uncontacted. For example, the uplands of Shuu Mua are largely composed of unpassable rifts, isolated plateaus and sheer drops. There are villages of a few hundred people in that broken terrain that no one has left since their ancestors were trapped there during the Balorian Crusade. In the Far South West, there is an island where giant men and women ride tyrant toothbirds, jousting with sharpened trees. In the waters of this region live orcamen whose forms are so unlike humans that they do not realise that the ships they plunder for trinkets are manned by the same race. There are many breeds of beastmen on islands, and the wyldmen are even more diverse.

We cannot mention the Anarchy without Saata, pirate den ruled by a Realm Cadet House and called by some the Nexus of the South West. Many traders from the Far South would rather brave the dive bars and brothels of Saata than the ancestor-cultist cannibals of the Wailing Fen, and so it is perhaps the greatest hub-city of the region. Wary northern traders prefer to buy their goods in the great market of the Daimyo & Yellow rather than risk heading further south. Saata is a melting pot where pirates and merchants from all over the Anarchy rub shoulders - and if one looks very closely, one might even be able to tell them apart.

Military Affairs

Barring a few conflicts on the larger islands, all warfare in the Anarchy is based around the ocean. The ships of this region are often sophisticated junks and cutters with teak hulls, though there remains a proud tradition of outrigger canoes used by families. Southwestern firedust is low grade traps water within it and so produces vast amounts of steam when it is fired; the nations here have learned to use this for a dizzying assortment of fire arrows, explosive bombs, steam-driven harpoons and other fearsome weapons. The epitome of the warship is a turtle ships; so called because they cover their hull above the waterline with thin sheets of copper or iron and so avoids the many incendiary weapons in use.

When two ships fight, it is usually over cargo. There are customs for when one surrenders one's goods or gives up on the attack. These rules are entirely waived when neither side will abide by them; the cannibals of the Wailing Fen show and give no quarter. However, these rules are not always followed, and some captains make a tidy extra sum by seizing the ship and crew of vessels trying to surrender. Many of the lesser sailors on these vessels will immediately join the crew of the victor, with only the officers being sold into slavery or executed.

Attacks against land targets are rarer in the north, but in the far South they are common. Slaving raids are how some pirate lords make their fortune, grabbing entire tribes and confining them to stinking slaving hulks. These slaves are usually sold to northern islands to work the fields growing cash crops like cane sugar, tobacco and cocaine, but some are sent even further north. There are individuals in the Realm with a taste for the more exotic people of the far South West.

One rule that nearly every pirate lord holds to is really more of a law of nature. In the typhoon season, all conflict stops. Vessels return to their home port and moor themselves safely away from sail-shredding winds and hull-breaking waves. However, there is a distinct edge of respect shown to those mad and brave enough to conduct raids in such seasons, and the bar songs of Saata lavishly praise acts like landing a force in an enemy dockyard during the middle of a storm to destroy their ships so blame falls on the typhoon.
 
So, I went and looked at the Multiple Opponents rules, and I feel like you should be able to stunt your way out of that, instead of needing a paranoia combo? I mean, the actual wording is that one of your opponents gets the benefits of an unexpected attack the character has no room to maneuver. It explicitly points out that this could be because of being ganged up on or because of the terrain, and earlier says that someone between two tyrant lizards would be just as fully clustered as someone surrounded by five human-sized opponents. So opponents would be able to gain the benefits of an unexpected attack not just by having a bunch of mooks surrounding you, but also by two large opponents circling you or attacking you while you're dangling from a rope at the edge of a cliff. Also, it says that a character pressed in by a cluster has no room to maneuver (the condition to acquire the benefits of an unexpected attack) and a -2 to Dodge DV, unless they use a Charm or stunt to evade without giving ground.

All told, this says to me that you should be able to negate the "unable to maneuver" malus with an appropriate stunt; it seems perfectly logical to me that someone hanging from a rope should be able to kick off against the cliff and swing out of the way of an attack, and someone trapped between two Tyrant Lizards should be able to say they feel the hot breath of the one behind them wafting over them as it lunges forward to devour them, and throws themselves backwards to duck beneath its jaws, using its own immense form as temporary shelter; so I don't see why it should be impossible for an Exalt to also be able to leap into the air just as his enemies attack, their weapons clashing against each other harmlessly just beneath his feet. After all, the "unexpected attack" isn't actually an unexpected attack, it just "gains the benefits" of such; the player of the trapped character is the one who chooses which opponent they expose their back to, so they should logically still know that opponent is there, they just can't defend against them conventionally.

Anyway, to actually be contributive with this post, is it likely that Liminal Exalted will get their own "Colossus" Charms, like Alchemicals do, or at least Charms that lets them develop organs and the like that clearly transcend what human bodies could produce? Because I reread Embalming - Another Tale of Frankenstein recently, and I feel like a Breath Aspect with an overpowered respiratory system that lets them move at supersonic speeds and spit out tornados like Ripper Hopper could would be amaaaaaaazing.
 
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So, I actually have a question about the most basic charms in the entire setting. Excellencies. The Third Excellency in particular. I remember reading somewhere that using the Third Excellency on a static value doubles the entire thing, but I can't find that rule now that I'm looking for it. Am I remembering correctly, and can someone give me a reference?

Also, Infernal Excellencies mention that their dice cap adds Essence to rolls using only one of an Attribute or Ability, right? Can they be applied to damage rolls because Strength is part of the pool? Or even to the damage pool of the original version of Mind Hand Manipulation, where the effective Strength is your Essence score?

...Finally, is there a particular reason Infernals don't have a Third Excellency? It just seems wierd to me.
 
No one uses it, really.
Yeah, see, with Infernals specifically, I would personally make it one of my priorities. That is, as long as I'm correctly remembering it's effect on static values. One of the big things about it is that it almost completely negates the single biggest disadvantage of Effortless Yozi Dominance, where you have to build up your discount, and thus have a much lower DV unless you're willing to spend more motes than you would on perfects for the first several attacks.
 
Finally, is there a particular reason Infernals don't have a Third Excellency? It just seems wierd to me.
Infernals enhance their rolls; they get easier access to success and dice, lower the target number and generally give them more success. The Yozi however aren't being used to failing, within their themes they come pretty close to omnipotent, so they never evolved something like the Third Excellency to catch themselves during the rare times that they did fail. And as the heirs to the might of the Yozi, the Green Sun Princes also lack a Third Excellency, though they could probably develop them if they wanted. (Not commenting if that is a good thing)
 
So, I went and looked at the Multiple Opponents rules, and I feel like you should be able to stunt your way out of that, instead of needing a paranoia combo? I mean, the actual wording is that one of your opponents gets the benefits of an unexpected attack the character has no room to maneuver. It explicitly points out that this could be because of being ganged up on or because of the terrain, and earlier says that someone between two tyrant lizards would be just as fully clustered as someone surrounded by five human-sized opponents. So opponents would be able to gain the benefits of an unexpected attack not just by having a bunch of mooks surrounding you, but also by two large opponents circling you or attacking you while you're dangling from a rope at the edge of a cliff. Also, it says that a character pressed in by a cluster has no room to maneuver (the condition to acquire the benefits of an unexpected attack) and a -2 to Dodge DV, unless they use a Charm or stunt to evade without giving ground.

All told, this says to me that you should be able to negate the "unable to maneuver" malus with an appropriate stunt; it seems perfectly logical to me that someone hanging from a rope should be able to kick off against the cliff and swing out of the way of an attack, and someone trapped between two Tyrant Lizards should be able to say they feel the hot breath of the one behind them wafting over them as it lunges forward to devour them, and throws themselves backwards to duck beneath its jaws, using its own immense form as temporary shelter; so I don't see why it should be impossible for an Exalt to also be able to leap into the air just as his enemies attack, their weapons clashing against each other harmlessly just beneath his feet. After all, the "unexpected attack" isn't actually an unexpected attack, it just "gains the benefits" of such; the player of the trapped character is the one who chooses which opponent they expose their back to, so they should logically still know that opponent is there, they just can't defend against them conventionally.

Yes, and the effects of an unexpected attack are that you don't get your DVs and your perfect defenses cannot be invoked. If you want to try and quibble over this extremely questionable interpretation of the rules in order to argue that you may not need the P-combo to defend against being surrounded, okay, for the purposes of this argument let's say you don't, even if I think this is a pretty long stretch. I'm doing this in order to illustrate a point.

Here's an example of what I mean when I say the lethality of Exalted 2 is ludicrous. You are Solar Bob, who doesn't want to die. There are Dragon-Blooded trying to kill you, because according to their religion you are an existential threat to the world, worse than an actual demon.

Dragon-Blooded Steve rolls for Re-Establish Surprise, succeeds, then swings at you with his jade grand daiklave boosted by his Melee Excellency. This does 14L Piercing base damage and requires a base strength of 3 to use, so if he touches you with a 1 success hit you take 18L Piercing damage. Superheavy plate is 12/12 soak. If you have 1 lethal soak from Stamina, you have 7 lethal soak against 18 damage and actually eat 11 dice of damage, averaging to 4.5 health levels. You are now in -2 and one more strike will outright kill you. If he gets a little bit lucky on that damage roll, you are now gibbed or in -4. If he rolls his full pool of up to 23-ish dice against 0 DV because this is a surprise attack, you will take 23 dice of damage and will absolutely be gibbed in one hit. Do you, Solar Bob, pop Reflex Sidestep Technique to make it not unexpected? Well, let's say you do.

Paranoia combo status: 1/3 complete - surprise negator.

However, your Reflex Sidestep Technique is not in a combo. Now you don't have a charm activation to use to raise your DV or otherwise avoid the attack, so he's probably going to hit you anyway since he's using an Excellency and you've used up your charm activation, with the aforementioned terrible consequences. You're screwed, right? How do you avoid this? Well, we could use a perfect soak strategy instead of a perfect dodge strategy, because perfect soaks don't have the requirement that the attack is not unexpected to be invoked, so skip Reflex Sidestep and just use Adamant Skin Technique.

However, attacks can kill us even if they deal no damage, such as if Dragon-Blooded Steve was Immaculate Wood Dragon Monk Steve with Soul Mastery, his touch is a oneshot, so that's an ineffective approach. Steve could also have coated his weapon with contact poison because Wood DBs are immune to plant toxins and/or he could be a grappler so if he touches us we're screwed, etc etc - therefore we've got to actually not be hit. In order to do that, we need to have Reflex Sidestep Technique in a combo with whatever we use in order to not be hit. Immediately, we note that the only two options available to us are spending ten motes on a Dodge Excellency to increase our dicepool by 10, or spending three motes on Seven Shadow Evasion to perfectly dodge the attack. Which one we use at this point should be pretty obvious, so let's throw that into our growing combo.

Paranoia combo status: 2/3 complete - surprise negator, perfect defense.

So, we can now avoid being instantly defeated, because no attack can hit us until we're out of motes, and we need to be hit in order to lose. How to defeat us? Make us run out of motes really fast. Dragon-Blooded Bob can use Ringing Anvil Onslaught and throw a lot of Grand Daiklave swings at us, making us spend a lot of motes because we need to perfectly avoid each individual hit, while he is spending not a lot. Doing this lets Bob burn a bit of his HP in order to make us use up a lot of ours, which his friends can exploit, so we don't want that to happen. The best way to defend against a flurry is to not be there, so let's throw Leaping Dodge Technique in so that we can perfect dodge the first attack and then jump away, spending a maximum of 6 motes instead of 3 motes * number of incoming attacks.

Paranoia combo status: 3/3 complete - surprise negator, perfect defense, flurry breaker.

Oh, and we want to kill Dragon-Blooded Steve, because otherwise we'll lose anyway because we'll just run out of motes constantly defending with no way to hit him back, so let's throw in our own offensive Excellency. We can spend 20 motes at the start of the fight and then invoke it for free from then on with Infinite Ability Mastery, but only if we can actually invoke the Charm, so it's got to be in a Combo or we can't do this and defend at the same time.

Paranoia combo status: 3/3 complete + offense - surprise negator, perfect defense, flurry breaker, excellency.

From where we're standing now, what happens to poor Bob if you remove any of the components of the combo?
a) No surprise negator: well, Bob's dead, he got cut in half.
b) No perfect defense: that DB Excellency has a cap only 2 dice below Bob's, so he's gonna get hit around 40% of the time, and if he loses half his health every time he gets touched by Steve's sword, that's not a working strategy.
c) No flurry breaker: Bob loses 18+ motes per action.
d) No excellency: Bob can't effectively attack, and therefore is inevitably doomed.

Okay, so, every Exalted combatant needs a paranoia combo to not die... what happens if every combatant has a paranoia combo? Well, combat sucks to play now, right? Not much fun? Big swathes of your combat charmset being totally unusable, stuff like that?

Note: For combat characters looking for optimality, you want that perfect soak anyway so you can use your DV against stuff that doesn't end you upon just a touch, soaking only the hits that get through. This gives you the 2/7 filter, the advanced paranoia combo. It's not required like the base paranoia combo is, just helpful.
 
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even if I think this is a pretty long stretch.
Well, if that's how you see it, then I doubt I'll convince you otherwise, but I look at it and see a specific circumstance in which a defense is not applicable because of those circumstances, but that limitation can be overcome through the use of magic or being awesome; I don't see it as much different than being unable to parry lethal damage unarmed without the use of a Charm or a stunt. I don't feel that its a much greater deviation from the rules than, say, houseruling out the need for crit confirmation in D&D.

I'm doing this in order to illustrate a point.
And I certainly won't contest it, because if a Solar goes up against an E4 Immaculate Master and a likely equally experienced and powerful DB (as a relevant aside, whatever problems I may have with their presentation in fluff, Terrestrial reflexive hax is fucking awesome), he's going to fucking die without defenses equal to the threat. You're definitely in the right in this scenario, but this scenario isn't what I was thinking of.

When I made my supposition, I was thinking of your earlier explanation to me (thank you again for that), where you said that because of the automatic unexpected attack being surrounded gave, a bunch of extras could just form a circle around a Solar Exalt and be able to whack him to death without at least a surprise negator; because even extras could hit the Exalt using that unexpected attack that the Exalt cannot avoid or defend against without his magic powers. That was the kind of scenario I had in mind when I was typing that post.

Against a DB, even just E2, with a Grand Daiklave? No fucking way, I would slap myself for thinking up something so mind-boggling ludicrous. That same scenario, except its a mortal extra with a Great Sword? Yeah, I think you could manage to survive that without a perfect defense.
 
being an Extra is largely irrelevant for the sake of this discussion. According to my reading of the (2e) rules, it works like this:

If you are surrounded on all sides due some combination of multiple opponents and restricted space, you are at -2 DV penalty and cannot take movement or dash actions (but you can jump?) - that is, without a Stunt or Charm.

So Solar Bob gets surrounded by 5 dudes, he's at -2 DV. He stunts like a beast and negates that penalty plus gets his stunt bonus.

But, since he's still surrounded, he must present his back to one opponent. That opponent gets the free Unexpected Attack.

Now, idly considering this, if you were in a scrum like that, I imagine everyone is not acting on the same tick unless Coordinated (which DBs can definitely do but it's not a standard assumption)- You can in theory present your back to someone who's DV will refresh after yours and therefore won't be in a position to get the unexpected swing off.

Unfortunately- while I imagine there is a time and place for that above usecase, the rules as I see them basically go 'The person inside the kill-ring can't move, but the ones outside can. So if the outsiders DO have sufficient Movement Rate to get into position, they can still take a free swing.
 
Against a DB, even just E2, with a Grand Daiklave? No fucking way, I would slap myself for thinking up something so mind-boggling ludicrous. That same scenario, except its a mortal extra with a Great Sword? Yeah, I think you could manage to survive that without a perfect defense.
It doesn't make much difference. Like, damage of a Grand Goremaul: 16L. Damage of a sledgehammer: 14B. 2.5 tweaked the numbers a bit but they're still very close.
 
Well, if that's how you see it, then I doubt I'll convince you otherwise, but I look at it and see a specific circumstance in which a defense is not applicable because of those circumstances, but that limitation can be overcome through the use of magic or being awesome; I don't see it as much different than being unable to parry lethal damage unarmed without the use of a Charm or a stunt. I don't feel that its a much greater deviation from the rules than, say, houseruling out the need for crit confirmation in D&D.

"Never be subject to an explicit combat condition due to stunting" is a stretch. If all it takes to never be subject to ever being surrounded is coming up with a stunt, I don't think your textual evidence is sufficient for me to allow this to apply, because this is trespassing beyond the explicitly granted boundaries of the power of stunts and effectively giving yourself Reflex Sidestep Technique for free against being surrounded, permanently. In order to convince me to allow you to do that if I was your GM, I would require you to have an explicit call out in the stunt rules spelling out in absolutely certain terms that this entire section of the combat rules is actually never applicable, given that stunting is a cost-free qualifier.

My reading of the rules is that you can stunt to get a bonus to your DV or allow you to dodge against the other four guys who have you surrounded, which you don't get to apply to that fifth guy because the unexpected attack is something he gets on top of you not being able to dodge without a stunt. You cannot stunt your way out of being surrounded: that is a hard mechanical condition. Similar to how you cannot stunt your way into getting the higher ground DV bonus if you do not actually use your movement to get onto higher ground, you still only get the stunt dice bonus no matter how you describe your dodge.

And I certainly won't contest it, because if a Solar goes up against an E4 Immaculate Master and a likely equally experienced and powerful DB (as a relevant aside, whatever problems I may have with their presentation in fluff, Terrestrial reflexive hax is fucking awesome), he's going to fucking die without defenses equal to the threat. You're definitely in the right in this scenario, but this scenario isn't what I was thinking of.

When I made my supposition, I was thinking of your earlier explanation to me (thank you again for that), where you said that because of the automatic unexpected attack being surrounded gave, a bunch of extras could just form a circle around a Solar Exalt and be able to whack him to death without at least a surprise negator; because even extras could hit the Exalt using that unexpected attack that the Exalt cannot avoid or defend against without his magic powers. That was the kind of scenario I had in mind when I was typing that post.

Against a DB, even just E2, with a Grand Daiklave? No fucking way, I would slap myself for thinking up something so mind-boggling ludicrous. That same scenario, except its a mortal extra with a Great Sword? Yeah, I think you could manage to survive that without a perfect defense.

Well, do you think "have the paranoia combo or die" is appropriate against Steve the Starting Character DB? Note that all Steve's got is a Melee Excellency, possibly a Stealth Excellency and a big sword. He'll also execute any player character in the game who doesn't have the P-combo.
 
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"Never be subject to an explicit combat condition due to stunting" is a stretch. If all it takes to never be subject to ever being surrounded is coming up with a stunt, I don't think your textual evidence is sufficient for me to allow this to apply, because this is trespassing beyond the explicitly granted boundaries of the power of stunts and effectively giving yourself Reflex Sidestep Technique for free against being surrounded, permanently. In order to convince me to allow you to do that if I was your GM, I would require you to have an explicit call out in the stunt rules spelling out in absolutely certain terms that this entire section of the combat rules is actually never applicable, given that stunting is a cost-free qualifier.

My reading of the rules is that you can stunt to get a bonus to your DV, which you don't get to apply because you're surrounded. You cannot stunt your way out of being surrounded: that is a hard mechanical condition. Similar to how you cannot stunt your way into getting the higher ground DV bonus if you do not actually use your movement to get onto higher ground, you still only get the stunt dice bonus no matter how you describe your dodge.
I do want to note that there's precedence for stunts making DVs applicable when they wouldn't normally be. They're explicitly allowed to make your Parry DV applicable when you're unarmed.
That's also an explicit exception included in the rules, though, so YMMV on applying that precedence to being surrounded.
 
I do want to note that there's precedence for stunts making DVs applicable when they wouldn't normally be. They're explicitly allowed to make your Parry DV applicable when you're unarmed.
That's also an explicit exception included in the rules, though, so YMMV on applying that precedence to being surrounded.

Like I said, it'd take an explicit exception such as the parry lethal unarmed line for me to allow it. Mechanically, stunts can do only what stunts are explicitly allowed to do, like any other component in an exception-based system.
 
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Well, do you think "have the paranoia combo or die" is appropriate against Steve the Starting Character DB? Note that all Steve's got is a Melee Excellency, possibly a Stealth Excellency and a big sword. He'll also execute any player character in the game who doesn't have the P-combo.
Definitely appropriate against Steve. But I guess I'd also say there are many more interesting reasons to need a P-combo to stay alive than "any random asshole with a couple of friends can shank you to death if they're surrounding you in an aggressive manner and you don't have nigh-invincible magical defenses granted unto you by the most powerful god in existence."

For example, you could want to not get hit when Steve and his Sworn Brotherhood combine powers to amp up their Elemental Bolt Attack, because if it hits it will slap you with a -2 penalty, knock you on your ass, delay your next action by three ticks, poison you, and briefly set you on fire. Which would give them more than enough leeway to mosey on over and stab you in the chest several times. Or, they've got you caught between them and are flaring their animas to the max, so you need to have a Survival Charm that makes you immune to magical elemental damage (do Solars actually even have a Charm that does that, or am I thinking of Lunars?) in order to not be taking an assload of lethal damage every tick; so you must absolutely avoid Steve at all costs, because he has an Eye of the Fire Dragon and if he so much as scratches you your defense will disappear, causing you to basically melt from the combined elemental flux over the next couple seconds.

Really, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the existence of P-combos if the reason for why they're needed wasn't so boring.

It doesn't make much difference. Like, damage of a Grand Goremaul: 16L. Damage of a sledgehammer: 14B. 2.5 tweaked the numbers a bit but they're still very close.
For the specific example of sledges and Grand Goremauls, yes, not much difference. In contrast, Grand Daklaves do 12L while Great Swords do 7L, and more importantly Great Sword do not do Piercing damage like Grand Daiklaves do. Since Grand Daiklaves were the weapon used in the example, I went with its mundane equivalent.

I have been assuming that this discussion has been taking place in the context of 2E, since I brought up language from the core rulebook.
 
Really, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the existence of P-combos if the reason for why they're needed wasn't so boring.
IMO, the actual problem with P-combos is that a) using them is boring and b) they're the only path that works, so therefore, you're gonna be stuck with boring. Like, I don't see how anyone can enjoy playing with constant P-combat, it's just not a fun game. For them to do that, they'd have to be aliens from Mars or something.
 
IMO, the actual problem with P-combos is that a) using them is boring and b) they're the only path that works, so therefore, you're gonna be stuck with boring. Like, I don't see how anyone can enjoy playing with constant P-combat, it's just not a fun game. For them to do that, they'd have to be aliens from Mars or something.
Yeah, I remember when I asked "but wouldn't that mean that you couldn't really use offensive Charms" and your response was essentially "pretty much, yeah," my reaction could basically be summed up as "uuuurrrrrggggh why?"

I want to be an asskicking train with no breaks fueled by Sunny-D.
 
Yeah, I remember when I asked "but wouldn't that mean that you couldn't really use offensive Charms" and your response was essentially "pretty much, yeah," my reaction could basically be summed up as "uuuurrrrrggggh why?"

I want to be an asskicking train with no breaks fueled by Sunny-D.
That's the normal reaction.
 
This seems like the proper course for me to take moving forwards.

This is basically what everyone else has done, yeah. RAW is fucked, so houserule it, just live with it, or just don't play Exalted (like me).

Note that to make the P-combo no longer the only path that works, you need to go through the entire list of every charm, spell, monster, weapon, etc and remove all the egregiously lethal stuff that causes you to die in one hit / lose automatically / get debuffed to the point of ineffectiveness / etc, etc, which is a, heh, non-trivial job, especially since a lot of what makes you lethal in the system is tied to how the dice curve works, which makes even a shift of +4/-4 on a 20 dice pool a fight-deciding gap.

Or you can look into Exalted 3, which at least solves this problem even if it produces a lot of other problems. YMMV, it depends which set of problems pisses you off more. Personally, both editions piss me off for different reasons, so I don't play Exalted.
 
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Ok, another Infernals question. Assuming a character who's already bought enough combat charms to feel comfortable in their ability to get away and survive if any happens (which I generally see as a bit more than just the paranoia combo, but the main point is that including such things are unnecessary), what is a good way to build an 'intellectual' Infernal? They have a lot of really cool powers, but they're almost all combat or social. I just went back and reread BWC and Chapter 5 of MOEP:I, and I have no idea how I'd make someone who isn't either combat focused or social focused. I suppose there's some support for crafting and Sorcery, but other than that I'm not seeing anything.
 
So, I actually have a question about the most basic charms in the entire setting. Excellencies. The Third Excellency in particular. I remember reading somewhere that using the Third Excellency on a static value doubles the entire thing, but I can't find that rule now that I'm looking for it. Am I remembering correctly, and can someone give me a reference?

In the corebook somewhere. Could be Lunars.

Also, Infernal Excellencies mention that their dice cap adds Essence to rolls using only one of an Attribute or Ability, right? Can they be applied to damage rolls because Strength is part of the pool?

Yes.

Or even to the damage pool of the original version of Mind Hand Manipulation, where the effective Strength is your Essence score?

No, but you don't want to do that anyway, Mind Hand's best usage is ranged high-accuracy grapples which don't expose you to being counter-grappled if you fail, or as a ping spam vector. Practically speaking, you can't get its damage even close to a killstick even if this was allowed, so just force choke them with your mind hands so their DV gets set to 0, then hit them with the killstick for chunky salsa.

Incidentally, mind hands is a great utility dip for combat characters of any kind for this exact reason. The ability to make high-accuracy ranged grapples without actually grappling is kind of insane.

...Finally, is there a particular reason Infernals don't have a Third Excellency? It just seems wierd to me.

No idea, never bothered me, it's not important.

Yeah, see, with Infernals specifically, I would personally make it one of my priorities. That is, as long as I'm correctly remembering it's effect on static values. One of the big things about it is that it almost completely negates the single biggest disadvantage of Effortless Yozi Dominance, where you have to build up your discount, and thus have a much lower DV unless you're willing to spend more motes than you would on perfects for the first several attacks.

You can max it out on the first action for 1 mote if you remember that:
a) You can activate your Yozi Excellency on pretty much everything. Movement distances. DVs. Damage rolls. Awareness checks. Whatever.
b) You don't need to max out the activation. Start at 1 mote, then spend only up to your discount on each subsequent activation until you reach full power.

For example, here's +10 on one mote.
Join Battle: 1 use
Three flurried attacks vs the weaklings or extras: 3 uses
Two or three damage rolls: 2-3 uses
Awareness check for ninjas: 0-1 use
Movement, once a tick for three ticks until your next action: 3 uses
 
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Again: @beowolf, remember that Mr. Chung's advice generally presupposes that you exclusively use the original 2E core rules, with no modifications of any kind. Thus making it more-or-less useless. A lot like how he rants about "infinite fairies" even though 90% of the people who mention raksha do not, in fact, claim that there are an infinite number of raksha waiting to enter Creation at any given time. Also, keep in mind that his analyses usually have more of a mind toward vomiting bile and contempt over the systems in question than actually being useful advice.

Chung's advice should be taken with multiple grains of salt, is what I'm saying.
 
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