I did that more than once. Do you just read the first line of my posts, or skip around randomly?
... Would you like to point me to where you actually stated that before? Or can you only point to places where you complained about abstraction turning multiple actions into single rolls?

I disagree. I mean, what else can I say?
Explain why, so the discussion isn't "you're wrong" "I disagree".
I mean, unless you want to explain why this is dramatic but the same actions in this video are not, I'm going to stick to saying you're wrong, but actually have something to back me up. Still. Because you haven't made any points to counter mine.

Does it seriously matter? I could look it up but it still has very little to do with much of anything.
I'm just curious, because from what I can find you were objectively wrong.

It's a vital part of the SV experience, I've found.
And, y'know, you didn't. I'm still not sure you do.

Why did you imply it?
 
hahaha oh my god.

Asking if arguments that you dislike are instantly disregarded as idiotic is not the same thing as calling you upset.

This fucking forum!
Hey, maybe if you don't mean to say that your argument upsetting someone is the reason they're criticizing you, you should fucking include it.
 
Violation of Rule 3 - This is not civil.
hahaha oh my god.

Asking if arguments that you dislike are instantly disregarded as idiotic is not the same thing as calling you upset.

This fucking forum!
Is it the case that arguments that upset you or that you personally disagree with are de-facto idiotic?
Is it the case that arguments that upset you ...
Can you fucking read what you write?
 
hahaha oh my god.

Asking if arguments that you dislike are instantly disregarded as idiotic is not the same thing as calling you upset.

This fucking forum!
Dude. You asked if arguments that upset them (or other thing) are considered idiotic. This implies that you consider it a possibility that the arguments in the discussion upset them (although other thing is also a possibility) or why in the name of the Unconquered Sun's shining orichalcum love sausage did you even bring it up?

And, yeah, when we're just saying shit off the cuff sometimes we throw in things that imply stuff we don't really mean. But when someone then misinterprets that as being something we totally do mean, it ain't the audience that done goofed.
 
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Can you fucking read what you write?

"Or that you personally disagree with"

Dude. You asked if arguments that upset them (or other thing) are considered idiotic. This implies that you consider it a possibility that the arguments in the discussion upset them (although other thing is also a possibility) or why in the name of the Unconquered Sun's shining orichalcum love sausage did you even bring it up?

"Or other thing" yeah. And asking "if" does not mean "I am saying you are." Why is this so surreal?
 
I'm done, you guys win. Exalted is fucking shit. Long live, I don't fucking know, Fate Accelerated or some shit. I really can't compete with this level of discourse, holy shit.
 
"Or that you personally disagree with"

"Or other thing" yeah. And asking "if" does not mean "I am saying you are." Why is this so surreal?
Because that's not how the English language actually works. You laid out two options, which gives the implication that you believe notanautomaton fits into one category. Especially given the subject matter and phrasing of the question. Or why include the option if it isn't relevant to the situation at hand?

The manner in which you're protesting this actually provides more support for Aaron's argument that you are intentionally engaging in bad faith.
 
Because that's not how the English language actually works. You laid out two options, which gives the implication that you believe notanautomaton fits into one category. Especially given the subject matter and phrasing of the question. Or why include the option if it isn't relevant to the situation at hand?

The manner in which you're protesting this actually provides more support for Aaron's argument that you are intentionally engaging in bad faith.

If I felt the need to insult Notanautomaton, I'd simply do so. We've been doing that to each other for the last five pages or so.
 
...okay, I'm convinced that my supposition that Deations was having miscommunication issues, rather than just trolling the debate, was incorrect.

I would like to apologize to the thread; I am deeply sorry for my contributions to extending this fiasco.
 
You know what would be cool? more guidelines on spirit courts and religious rites. i had to port over the prayer rules from 2e when i ran my short lived game.

I would have expected a more developed system for gaining/managing divine favor in 3e, instead of silence.

Wasn't Holden the one who complained that exalted was getting too gonzo and he missed his peach orchard oaths?

then where are my rites of honor and blessing and propitiation, modbannit?



also, please use the edit button, there were way too many double and tripple posts.
 
Naturally, this is what I assume would happen as well. But what do they do? I'm a newbie GM in this example, and I am not really sure how they'd deal with this situation. I've run D&D before, and I know basic aggro mechanics from computer rpgs, so I usually just have people focus on the biggest and most dangerous looking PC. As you say in your post, I don't have any political knowledge and I'm not sure how they'll mitigate the blockade or hurt the organization doing the blockading.

Let's assume I do have a system in this example! Looking at the stats, I know that the blockaded nation is weak and poor, with a lot of unexploited resources and a smaller population. There really isn't much they can do to respond with military force, and without PCs giving them bonuses they're not going to accomplish much of anything with their dice pools.

Whelp, I'm still stuck. Hopefully my players can think of something when I describe the scenario to them.

So maybe they surrender and barter away resource rights to get the blockade to back off. I mean, it would be a bad system if it didn't provide for that option, that someone might just not fight a bigger, meaner opponent, just like the Exalted 3E combat system would be a bad system if there was no way for a combatant to run away when they crest the ridge and see that there's 100 angry Dragonbloods here because you made someone really mad. Like what you're saying is that this person has no idea how war and conflict works which is possible but also means you have a GM who is running a game they don't understand at all-at which point failure is not only expected but the usual course of things.

This scenario is where you probably should go "okay I don't like this focus, let's play something else." Or have a Storytelling chapter to point out that 'yes, conquering people who can't fight back is an important part of running an empire, but is generally not something that generates many gudfites-so this is why you have 10,000 goons to deal with these problems.'

And then what? Just roll for the Tiger Warriors and Harmonious academics off screen and see if they win or lose? If my player isn't interested enough to intervene in a situation directly, why would I want to bore him in the first place? So yes, if the situation is small enough or trivial enough, I can just have it dealt with off-screen, or else balloon into something much bigger that the group might find more interesting.

Well, maybe the player wants this as part of the plan, and it should have a chance of failure, but you really don't want to just wing it because that might make them mad at you rather than the dice if they fail, and if they succeed you'll feel like you just granted them a freebie? The other benefit of a system is the perception of fairness. The GM going "you drop your sword because that guy parries you super-well" is bullshit if they do it out of the blue, if the system says "you drop your sword" when you roll no successes and a dozen 1s on your attack, it feels a lot less bullshit. I would think that even if the system is not great, having that illusion of fairness is a huge benefit sometimes.

There's a lot of boring but risky stuff that's involved in nation building-things which might fail, and create more plot, but also might go off without a hitch. A system to specifically deal with this isn't a bad thing. Yes, you can wing it. However the entire point of a RPG is to create a structure for your make-believe. And when an important part of your make-believe is 'just wing it' it feels kind of incomplete somehow. And this might just be my experience, but I find sometimes giving the players a chance to solve a huge problem pretty trivially because of the things they've built up tends to actually make them more, not less, happy. You'll obviously want challenges but sometimes the players might just want to take over Town X because it's important to a long-term plan but they're god-kings with hundreds of XP, they don't need to show up like Harbinger and go "I WILL SEE TO THIS PERSONALLY." Well, until their empire botches their 'conquer tiny village' roll and that means they probably need to do something because obviously that village was more than just a tiny village of no import.

Or maybe you don't even want this. You could very well set up the large-scale system as a method of determining what small-scale actions are taken to get to that point, and then suggesting potential complications. Simply because it's a system doesn't mean it has to be a minigame unto itself like the Company rules are-it could very well be more tightly integrated with the personal-scale rules, much like how Exalted 3E handles mass combat compared to Exalted 2E. Would that be more complex? Probably! Instead of resolving everything with one dice roll it'd probably require a session or more to resolve a single action because it gets split down into more and more parts because of being less abstract. But that's not inherently a bad thing. The Company rules are supposed to add context then largely get out of the way, if you want to have Exalted: A Game of God-Kings you might not want the king part of 'god-king' to get out of the way as often.

How so? What are the consequences of a successful Raid aside from increasing my Treasure and/or decreasing my enemy's? What happens in a territory that I annex? How do I handle a scenario that the game doesn't explicitly cover, like blackmailing someone with state secrets, or setting up a trade deal with a foreign power? And while the system tells me what the mechanical changes are from the codified actions, I still need to know how to reflect this in the narrative.

I'm not sure how this is an objection. You need some basic idea of how organizations work (like "deposing a ruler will probably cause their loyalists, if any, to turn against you" or "raiding another guy and stealing their money will probably put you on their shit-list somewhere") to use the system, but I think you need a basic idea of how combat works to run a combat system-it's just that people have that basic idea from well... the media world is pretty hugely violence-saturated. What you're asking is 'where do I go to learn a system' rather than 'how does the system work.' And the answer to that is "well obviously you'd probably want a Storytelling chapter on running large-scale games."

I don't want an AI script. I want to know if a system like REIGN's can actually help someone who is otherwise clueless (and god only knows why this person wants to play REIGN or Exalted or whatever specifically) map together an internally consistent scenario instead of just concluding it's too much effort and leaving it at that.

When you're asking "I want a system which will tell me what X party will do" when a system which gives you a set of options isn't enough, something that gives you what you ask is going to be Storytelling advice or a flowchart/AI script, neither of which are what people are talking about-and both of which are orthogonal to having a system for large-scale actions. There is nothing which prevents you from having a chapter on premodern societies and also a system to govern their interactions.
 
Your assertion is that it is practically impossible; this is an incredibly strong assertion, and requires commensurate evidence. Yet you've been trumpeting it based on mere fragments.

You are inversing the burden of proof. If person A says that he considers something impossible, and person B disagrees, is the responsability of Person B to prove that it is possible.

On the other hand... a single counterexample fells it.

Correct. Let's see examples.

Sid Meier's Civilization (all five of them) looks like it fits the bill. There's also probably some user-made content in the form of AI files for that sort of thing.
So does Alpha Centauri.
Age of Empires.

All of these are video games, and therefore not applicable.

Imrix's mention of Wrath of the Autarch looks like it might.

Hmmm. I have take a cursory galnce at this. I can't really judge, but i will point out that this is build from the fround up as a strategy/4x game, which is quite different from adding strategic-level play to a system based around individual characters.

--------

For Exalt to have proper strategic play, it should start assuming that it will mostly played at that level, and the players powers shold be designed around that; But alas, it has never been that way, in any edition.

Designing a strategic level play system capable of interacting with the individual actions of the PC's without producing non-sensical output is, i think impossible. Even if it wasn't, is certainly beyond the capability of the current designers.
 
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You are inversing the burden of proof. If person A says that he considers something impossible, and person B disagrees, is the responsability of Person B to prove that it is possible.

What? No.

Claiming a thing is impossible is a positive claim. It needs to be defended. Just like if I said "There is no god" that is a positive claim.

The proper Null Hypothesis would be "I am not convinced such a subsystem is possible."
 
You are inversing the burden of proof. If person A says that he considers something impossible, and person B disagrees, is the responsability of Person B to prove that it is possible.
I wasn't talking about burden of proof, i.e. whose responsibility it is to give proof in any capacity. Or rather, I didn't primarily intend to. I was talking about the amount of proof necessary to confirm (or deny) the claim. Proving an impossibility is attempting to prove a global truth. Proving "possible" requires only a single instance to be demonstrated.
All of these are video games, and therefore not applicable.
So? As I already explained, the important thing is that gameworthy models of large-scale organizations can in fact exist and be practically implemented in some form.

None of the aspects of 'video games' versus 'tabletop games' are relevant. The relevant factors to a city's prosperity and economy are the same. Decision points are the same. Behavioral tendencies are the same.

Total population. Major local resources. Allocations of labor. Imports, exports, available infrastructure. Levels of civil unrest. Patronage and vassalage. Public works and other major projects. Local ruins (oh hai first age). Sudden introductions of technologies, pillaging outlying territories, blockading trade routes. All of these are factors in Civ, and those factors can be represented without massively more overhead than is already present in a tabletop game for a sociopolitical and economic setup.

Whether you want to use Civ in particular for that is an entirely different question, but it is possible, and quod erat demonstrandum.
 
None of the aspects of 'video games' versus 'tabletop games' are relevant.

They are totally relevant. A computer can process much more variable that a human can, more quickly, and perfectly keeping account of everything. If you try to use such a system for a tabletop game you end with a Campaign for North africa monster.

Remember, we aren't talking just about making a strategic level system, we want a strategic level system with certain requirements:

1: No no-sensical output.

2: Capable of properly integrating the personal actions of the PC's.

3: Actually utilizable in practice. (Ie, without generating absurd amounts of bookeeping/Operational burdens.
 
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They are totally relevant. A computer can process much more variable that a human can, more quickly, and perfectly keeping account of everything. If you try to use such a system for a tabletop game you end with a Campaign for North africa monster.
*facepalm*

Which is why you make sure that the particular details of the version for tabletop use don't need the ST to keep track of as many fiddly bits.

Do you seriously think I'm suggesting just porting it over without adjusting the math? When I already said that no, that is obviously dumb?
 
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Which is why you make sure that the particular details of the version for tabletop use don't need the ST to keep track of as many fiddly bits.

It is possible to satisfactorily emulate large organizations with the use of massive amount of maths, so therefore it is possible to satisfactorily emulate large organizations without it.

Great argument mate.
 
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