grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
A blade that is six inches thick at any point, if it is still a useful blade, is not a sword.
It is an axe.
General Exalted Thread
It is an axe.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
You're right, I misread.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
nah man don't you know ichigo never actually had his shikai
he never even had a zanpakutou
all along he was unwittingly faking it with his quincy powers that you didn't even know about
his real zanpakutou powers
were his hollow powers
it was planned all along
But yeah, Bleach is a pretty bad example for a number of reasons, starting with the insurmountable and largely passive power gap that opens up in the Soul Society arc and continues to widen quite cheerfully from there on in, and including a bunch of other considerations. The basic principle of Ichigo being an Abyssal who quickly leaps up the ranks of power compared to all these ancient ghost swordsman is fine, and soul-cutters themselves continue to be cool as hell, but the actual structure and a lot of the details aren't great for translating into Exalted.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Blade Spirit Unlocking Meditation
Cost: 3m Type: Simple (Dramatic Action) Duration: Indefinite
Keywords: None
Mins: Melee 3, Essence 1 Prereqs: None
The Solar knows that the spirit of each sword is unique and powerful in its own right, even the most humble blacksmith's dagger may strike with the potential of the flamboyant weapons of legend. To perform this Charm the Solar must spend one hour interacting with a weapon he has Ownership of to awaken its least god and win its loyalty. So long as the motes remain committed the weapon gains the benefits of the Orichalcum Magical Material bonus. So long as the motes remain committed anyone but the Solar attempting to use the weapons suffers (-Solar's Essence) internal penalty to his attack roles as the spirit of the blade rejects them.
This Charm may be repurchased at Essence 2. Doing so allows the weapon to act as a Artifact 2 weapon of the equivalent type, this increase the committment cost by 2m. The Solar may repurchase it again at Essence 3, 4 and 5. Each repurchase raises the effective Artifact rating of the weapon by one and the commitment cost by 2m. Generally weapons enhanced by this Charm gain unique artifact powers equivalent to other artifacts once past the 2 dot range. The effective artifact dots granted by this Charm do not stack with actual artifacts.
Weapons enhanced by this Charm tend to develop strong personalities and may become NPCs in their own right, but this is not required. Weapons enhanced by this Charm have a Conviction of 5 and an unbreakable Intimacy towards their master.
Bam. Done. It's not really hard.
Okay so, you yourself said that artifacts are equalizers, but you're still approaching the point of artifacts as though they exist to be nothing more than an instantly-applied damage bonus to everything, when that's not how one balances an "equalizing" bonus.
Since the thread keeps bringing up Berserk and Guts, lets actually take a look at how the show itself used and portrayed Guts' skill with fucking enormous swords. (Content warning for general blood and violent mayhem, but well, its Berserk, so you know what you're getting into)
So here we see Guts using what is arguably an extremely huge mundane sword to mow down dudes (extras) by the handful. This is pre-Dragonslayer, so he's just using a large metal wedge and might, nothing more. This is why when Samson comes into things, he's suddenly in trouble, because this is a heavily-armed and armored, peer-level opponent.
Guts cannot immediately trivialize this guy with a weapon that big, he can only use the sheer hugeness of his sword to prevent himself or Casca from becoming instant-paste against his attacks, and doing so puts him on an entrenched defensive stance. But when he DOES press the attack, he uses that same weight to smash Samson's flail, disarming him and leaving him open to a deathblow. He then goes back to killing piles and piles and piles of enemy soldiers, as one of them even says, "a man dies every time he swings his sword." Not long after he takes an arrow to his hand, keeping him from two-handing, and this is treated as a significant downgrade, suddenly mook-enemies are no longer so trivial.
So what can we draw out of this mechanically? The reach of the weapon matters as much as the power it hits with, and Guts cleaves his way through enemies below his stature by making great sweeping blows which are more useful against multiple enemies than one-on-one. The damage is enough to kill with a single blow, yes, but these are also bumbling mooks, so the damage doesn't have to be Incredible. Samson is another issue entirely, because now blocking equally potent attacks (we see the deflected shot Also instant-kill a bystanding soldier) is Guts' top priority until he can leverage the offensive again, which requires insuring his enemy cannot block and receives the Maximum amount of damage he can inflict with the blow. The arrow-shot preventing him from using both hands shifts the battle out of his favor, so wielding it one-handed is obviously not-ideal, despite his strength.
A huge weighty weapon then could be modeled as a shortish AOE attack, which applies to several bunched-up enemies at once, much like Great Cleave and similar feats, but is fundamentally worthless against single peers. It could give stronger defense against attacks of its own strength, such as not-shattering under the weight of such blows (we've seen inklings of this before in 2e Heavenly Guardian Defense, where mundane weapons shatter against 25 raw damage or higher). Lastly, it could shatter weapons just as strong as itself when used offensively. All of these things are selective and entirely negligible bonuses in the right contexts, primary that of "am I fighting someone as scary as I am or not" and by all accounts can get 'switched off' the moment he can't put both arms behind the strike.
But lets go beyond just human-level enemies, let check out Guts' first battle with Nosferatu Zodd, the Immortal, the most supernatural creature he had ever seen by that point:
Now we see here that his equalizing blade is Not quite so equalizing anymore! In fact, Guts is waaaay out of his league, falling back on that defensive stance simply to survive this time, not just to be protective. Zodd tosses him around like a ragdoll despite his best efforts, and even when Guts gets the option to press the attack, and its clear that this simply huge mundane sword cannot do the job, no matter how many men it can kill with one stroke. Though he breaks Zodd's weapon as he did against Samson, the deathblow doesn't take, and Guts is now suddenly at the mercy of close combat with an angry and transforming Apostle. Things understandably get worse from there.
Clearly, mechanically-speaking, at a certain level of opponent the ridiculous damage of Guts' sword doesn't match up. This might be Soak, it might be Health Levels or Hardness, but in any case, Zodd is not someone who can or will go down in a single hit from Anything. Arguably this comes down to enemy/encounter design rather than base weapon stats, but we can easily see Guts using the same tactics as before, and though they work successfully, this isn't the kind of challenge he can brute-force through on high bonuses alone.
Would these fights be different with the Dragonslayer? Maybe, but maybe not. The only thing the Dragonslayer has over Guts' mundane blade is more size and construction-strength, as sword can only be so sharp. Would that additional weight be enough added damage to one-shot Zodd? Not very likely, and Zodd's status as a single, outlandishly-powerful opponent rules out most benefits we can tease out from just using a large weapon itself.
No, Guts is going to need a lot more than that, and arguably this would be the domain where Exalted starts providing Charms and offensive magic to help even the scales against beasts of Zodd's caliber.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Man, everyone and their dog has made up a "turn a mundane weapon into an Artifact" Charm at some point. This one is a particularly poor example of the type because of its repurchase clauses. You could pay 15xp (or no xp and just some Merit dots and BP at chargen) for an Artifact 5, or you could... Pay 40xp for this suite of Charms? Try again.
Actually, don't, you're going at this the wrong way. You're answering the question "how to balance mundane weapons with Artifacts" by making mundane weapons into Artifacts, which is dodging around the question. It's also a Solar Charm, so the system is still borked for everyone else. You're approaching this in a top-first fashion, when the question of Artifact/mundane balance should be solved bottom-first.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
So, problem 1: you're comparing this against a single Artifact for cost (and ignoring possible opportunity costs). If you commit the motes, you can get as many artifacts from that as you want.
Also, non-unique artifact weapons basically stop at Artifact 3, so that's 9xp vs 24 xp for a single artifact.
Problem 2: you're assuming this is a fix for "Artifacts are broken". It's not. It's a fix for "Artifacts are objectively a better mechanical choice". It does that.
Problem 3: Ctrl+F "Solar", replace with splat of choice. Ctrl+F "Orichalcum", replace with appropriate material. Change Melee to the appropriate Ability for the splat.
Hey, look, it's for a different splat now.
You missed an incredibly obvious template charm.
- Location
- Spain
Dragonblooded get Solar charms now?
Aren't they also the "normal" weight to anyone not attuned to them, including the luckless bastards that get hit by them?
That's just Sanosuke's Zanbatō.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, but "number of Artifacts" has its own innate drawbacks in the size of your mote pool. Having several Artifact weapons at 5+m commitments is not gonna be worth it. That's a lot of perfects you could be paying for with that.
It does not. It fails at it.
It can serve as a compensatory measure, if you decide you really want a high-end Artifact weapon, which you didn't thought you'd need at chargen, and your ST is the kind that won't let you have one through the story. In which case yes, paying oodles of xp may be worth it because there is no other way of getting such a high-end weapon. But that's pretty shitty mechanical grounds. In the end you're still paying a huge xp surcharge over just taking an Artifact.
I didn't miss anything, I just assumed @Aaron Peori would know better than to create a boilerplate Charm that can be used as-is for all splats with no rebalance.
Look, this is a bad Charm. It's okay. When you throw something together really quickly just to Prove Someone Wrong On The Internet, chances are it won't be very good. This mostly misses the point of the Artifact/mundane weapon question and answers it with bad mechanics. It's cool, just go back to the drawing board.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Well, the idea behind it is two fold. First, yes it costs more to buy this Charm five times than a daiklave once. This is intended. As others have said this Charm allows you to master any weapon you want. Want to play a Dark Souls character who picks whatever weapon is most practical for the fight? Spend an hour and 11m and now you have an Artifact 5 dagger for sneaking into that ball rather than the artifact 5 spear you were using to fight that river dragon last week. I balanced the Charm around the idea that someone with five Craft Charms should be able to pop out a useful artifact on demand as well. This one is faster, but only works for weapons so eh.
Second, clearly other PC origins would have their own variations on these effects. The response to "if one uses magic and one doesn't the guy with magic is better!" basically should be "well than use magic, too". Charms exist to make you able to do unique magical things with previously mundane means. So if your problem is "my mundane sword is suboptimal" the response should be "well, here is an effect that makes it not suboptimal."
The exact form the Charm takes is really irrelevant. It's not an insoluble problem unless you choose to make it one.
- Location
- NYC
It's always seemed to me (since 1E, at least) that half the problem with Artifact balance is how the fluff of Artifacts (super rare, super valuable, super powerful) doesn't match up with their crunch (pretty much everyone we see written up has one or two if it makes sense for their build, they're seemingly trivial to acquire from adventures, crafting, or defeated foes, and they're often more (minor) force multipliers for already extremely powerful individuals).
The solution, it seems to me, is to actually support the fluff in-setting. Make Artifacts harder to acquire in character creation, with some kind of associated cost (ability points or charms, maybe) that a combat character will actively care about. Say that Artifacts require immense training to be able to even wield effectively in combat and require a Specialty to use without penalty. Have their core stats be tied to Evocation progression, so that a freshly acquiring Daiklaive is barely more powerful than a mundane weapon, but fully tapped into it's incomparable.
The solution, it seems to me, is to actually support the fluff in-setting. Make Artifacts harder to acquire in character creation, with some kind of associated cost (ability points or charms, maybe) that a combat character will actively care about. Say that Artifacts require immense training to be able to even wield effectively in combat and require a Specialty to use without penalty. Have their core stats be tied to Evocation progression, so that a freshly acquiring Daiklaive is barely more powerful than a mundane weapon, but fully tapped into it's incomparable.
notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Meanwhile, you're ignoring the Charm sketch I tossed together entirely.
And being pretty damn condescending; maybe tone it down a notch, dude.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
For what it's worth, I believe that the actual way to "balance" artifact-grade weapons with non-artifact grade weapons is the same way you balance weapon fighters with bare-handed fighters.
Namely, the resources (xp, motes, time and effort) allocated to retaining the artifact-grade weapon can be assigned elsewhere by the other fighter. Their weapon will never be as good, but they will have other advantages and are less vulnerable to the loss of their weapon - not to mention, losing a mundane blade is simpler to resolve than losing an artifact-grade weapon.
In practice this hasn't been the case, because the resources tied up by an artifact weapon have always far and away been worth it, rather than being an investment you'd actually have to think about. Still, in theory it's the way to go.
Namely, the resources (xp, motes, time and effort) allocated to retaining the artifact-grade weapon can be assigned elsewhere by the other fighter. Their weapon will never be as good, but they will have other advantages and are less vulnerable to the loss of their weapon - not to mention, losing a mundane blade is simpler to resolve than losing an artifact-grade weapon.
In practice this hasn't been the case, because the resources tied up by an artifact weapon have always far and away been worth it, rather than being an investment you'd actually have to think about. Still, in theory it's the way to go.
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Keep in mind that Artifacts are "Super Rare" in a world where even if there was a Daiklaive for every Celestial Exalt that's still just seven hundred swords scattered across an area larger than the Earth.
And they are "Super Valuable" because you are doing things like making a sword from a single huge slab of super-holy-gold.
And they are "Super Powerful" because, again, the Magical Material are nearly indestructible and even more-so if part of an Attuned Artifact.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sorry. Your Charm sketch is fine! I'm not sure I would use for my player, but the idea of a custom Charm building upon "multisword iaido" is cool. It's a bespoke answer to a given problem rather than a weak one-size-fits-all attempt and I could work with it.
I will defend my condescension under the "he shot first" principle, though.
Relevant to this, the aforementioned multisword player (Song of Life's Summer from my Gloam game) decided to go around with several swords after she lost her first sword in a duel with an Immaculate (also one of the best stunts in the game). Having multiple blades is an insurance against breaking them with her too-powerful attacks.
I wouldn't say it's exactly relevant because losing the sword was a voluntary choice on the player's part, though, so it doesn't really play into the idea of weapons having the drawback that you can take them away; but I still think this idea applies in general. Overall I agree with your point.
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- Location
- NYC
The issue is that, despite the size of Creation, pretty much every Celestial Exalt seems to have at least one.
That despite how apparently valuable they are, the cost to acquire it in Background Points is roughly the same as... a moderate to high amount of money, or a fairly small army, or a mutation that gives you an extra health level, or a strange animal familiar. And that background cost is the only actual evaluation we have in the game. There are no rules, or even setting guidelines, on how much an Artifact should cost. Are they priceless, or worthless? Can I start with Artifact 3 and sell that for Resources 5 (if I can find a buyer)?
Indestructibility in a system without much item destruction isn't particularly useful or powerful. It's neat, the kind of perk that can occasionally come in handy, but not powerful. Power means that the Artifact can do things, be a force multiplier or open up new options or such. A blade so sharp that it can cut a shadow from the floor is powerful. Armor so pure that weapons refuse to mar its surface, turning lesser blows aside is powerful. Evocations do a good job of this: you know Joe McDragonblooded is terrifying because he has mastered the cursed spear Limitless Ambition, which devours the blood of those it strikes to fuel the unthinking madness of Joe.
greensun
You shall all burn beneath my light!!!
I feel very happy that I ditched Bleach after the Aizen arc.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Well, artifacts are theoretically to be an investment that offers power but carries the risk that it'll be lost or destroyed or unavailable, like Thor's hammer being stolen by giants or Gram being shattered by Odin or Zangetsu being destroyed by Shinigami or Darth Maul's lightsaber being cut in half or Harry's wand snapping or Armstrong breaking Raiden's HF sword or Ice being stolen and reforged or the Fellowship needing to set aside their weapons to enter the hall of Theoden.
In practice, every writer has gone all faint at the idea of characters' super cool weapons being ever the least bit at risk, so this never happens and there's basically no risk of it happening. And even if it did happen here have two Charms to cheaply and imperceptibly store your weapon in a pocket dimension ready for use whenever, and other to instantly recall it to your side, both easily accessible at chargen.
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In practice, smashing shit the players spent a bunch of points on is a good way to piss them off and make them try to kill you IRL.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I do know that the last time I had a suspicious garrison ask the players that they leave their weapons before entering, there was half an hour of bickering and they almost did not go into the fort at all. In the end they chose to leave one of their own behind with all the weapons heaped up in his arms or something silly like that. It kind of undermined my enthusiasm for running the Hall of Theoden scene.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
in general based on the discussion of Artifacts and 'sacrosanctness of Players', I note this desire:
I want to be able to play or run in a game (and this is more a question of the table, not the rules), where if a player says they spend the night drinking and spending cash on prostitutes, the ST has every opportunity to roll, and say the PC wakes up next morning naked and thrown into a gladiator pit.
Now, implicit to myself, is the idea that being put in that situation is not meant to be punishment or 'Trying to kill your character'. Instead, it's the idea that of being in a comfortable enough player group that it can happen.
I want to be able to play or run in a game (and this is more a question of the table, not the rules), where if a player says they spend the night drinking and spending cash on prostitutes, the ST has every opportunity to roll, and say the PC wakes up next morning naked and thrown into a gladiator pit.
Now, implicit to myself, is the idea that being put in that situation is not meant to be punishment or 'Trying to kill your character'. Instead, it's the idea that of being in a comfortable enough player group that it can happen.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
I'm allowed to kill or cripple their characters entirely, just not touch their stuff. Gotcha.
This will also get people pissed off at you, since Exalts are supposed to be able to (eventually)fully heal from anything they can survive.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Well, facetiously, we have proven mechanics for healing, and most crippling effects are temporary assuming you don't die. Death is of course Death.
More seriously, it comes down to the fact that players do not want to be penalized. They want to be Optimal At All Times. The issue is that people don't understand that weakness creates drama, which makes things memorable.
The other factor is that when you steal gear, the only guarantee the PC will get it back is the whim of the storyteller- Exalted does a very good job of declaring player primacy in its Charms. If you are crippled, your charms will heal it.
Basically, outside of proven groups, PCs and STs are enemies first and all interactions are seen through that lens.