Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- USA
Looks like our threading the needle last turn with some of our choices seems to have improved our stability, which is good, considering how much things will likely change now that we have a crisis down South.
Interesting, it seems like our hierarchy and specialization shot up by a lot. We should probably keep an eye on this as I am not sure we can afford to increase this anymore without any problems cropping up.
Interesting...it seems like our culture has likely been boosted by this. It seems that even without our intervention, we likely have an answer to the Peace Builders through our standardized trials of adulthood.
So would megaprojects like the Hill have been impossible due to the centralization required if we had this government? What types of projects are locked for example?
Yeah, this was totally expected. The QM did warn us overall to not become too over reliant on agriculture. I mean, considering how vulnerable agriculture can be to shifts in the climate and weather, while I do think we should still focus on agriculture in the sense that we should cultivate it for storage in silos or something, we should also try to improve our other food options such as fishing and hunting, that way we can weather these changes.
That being said, I wonder if it might be worth it after this crisis is past to see if we can venture down south in order to pick up some of those crops and plants. I'm not entirely sure how significant those flowers are though. Anyone know botany around here?
Yeah, we really need to eliminate them before they become an even larger threat. They seem like a proto-Sparta, and that's not a good thing for us. If we let them continue onwards they will only go stronger and will likely pose a danger to us.
Considering the fact that a good portion of South Lake's slaves are former members of the Hundred Bands, a group whom a large part of the people used to call kin, I think it is imperative that we at least try to do something here. Especially considering how brutal this is lookingl
Right, considering that the South Lake tribe has most likely descended into cannibalism, that should be enough of a casus belli to intervene and put an end to this. Right now is after all the best time. If we can work with the resistance group, we can likely improve our chances of success here of eliminating the South Lake tribe in its entirety. Their culture right now seems too evil for us to let continue even for the standards of the time, and their threat will only grow.
Right, I think a good place to start off with this is to point out that while the Island Makers may be the enemies of our enemies in this, they are not likely to be our long term friends. They are probably going to be a rival of us eventually. With that taken into account, they do have a point. The South Lake tribe are pretty clearly evil at this point, what with their brutal slavery and cannibalism, and the fact that it appears that their entire economy is dominated by slavery, while their tribe members itself are warriors suggest we are dealing with a very martial culture. If we leave them be, in time they will grow into a potent threat, especially if they can build off of the fact that a lot of Southern Tribes have been wiped out and potentially raid other tribes for slaves.
Considering how it would be two tribes against one if we allied with the Island Makers here, and the general chaos down south this is likely going to be our best bet at ending the South Lake tribe now before they can recover.
While I would usually agree with Kaspar, in this instance I think that this occasion is one that won't occur everyday, and we need to strike while we still can. Not only would the Island Makers be supplying our warriors with their own stores, but the situation itself is most likely the only time we can strike a decisive blow.
While it might be safer to simply wait things out, I'm not entirely sure by the time the South Lake Tribe actually does strike, if we'll be better able to better eliminate them then, than compared to now. If the South Lake Tribe recuperates, they will likely war with the Island Makers, and if they fall, their technology and their people as slaves will likely reinvigorate the South Lake Tribe. Furthermore, even if they did strike us at that point, I am not entirely sure we would be able to finish them due to the distances involved. We would need to likely set up a point of resupply for our warriors to be able to prosecute any campaign against the South Lake tribe, and if the Island Makers are done for at that point we will likely be waiting a long time to threaten their heartlands directly.
Comparatively, I think right now even if we did just recently trade with them, we have sufficient casus belli in order to declare war and not be seen as hypocrites. After all, the South Lake Tribe are evil, the cannibalism is a just enough excuse here. Furthermore, our absorption of the Hundred Bands will likely be recent in our cultural memory. By striking now we will likely restore support in our rule, and have the enthusiasm of our warriors and leaders in doing so. Right now the South Lake tribe are reeling. They have a slave revolt at home, a resistance group opposing them from the shadows, and their crops are dead. If we attack alongside the Island Makers, we can likely finish them now, at least near the White River, and make it so that they are not a threat to us in the foreseeable future.
Out of the options, I think the no option is right out at the moment. This is too good to be true, and this is an opportunity we should take.
I think the middle option of allowing young men south to go fight is a middle ground that might give us plausible deniability however it will also likely decrease our effectiveness and our chances of success. The young men going south likely won't be as organized, and I doubt they will have the support of our elite holy orders in this. Also remember the South Lake tribe seems to have specialized in having their members all be warriors, with slaves as the economy. Small numbers will not be enough here as they will likely have more skill at arms compared to our young men, and will likely be better led and organized.
If we truly wish to eliminate the South Lake Tribe our best bet is a coordinated raid. With the Island Makers as a launching point for that raid, our combined forces with elite units and all should be able to crush them. We can likely concentrate our numbers down south without worrying about running out of food, and possibly organize with the local resistance to take down the South Lake tribe in its entirety by using their local knowledge. Plus if we succeed in eliminating them, we will likely get a lot of prestige.
I'm somewhat curious where these mountain clans came from, since their west is to our direct east. Could it possibly be that some of the mountain clans are former members of the people like the Old Warrior faction? @Redium
In any case, we really should try to help the Arrow Lake Tribe here, not only will this get goodwill with them, but we will likely bind them closer to us by doing so. Plus rewards are always nice.
If we are going to raid the South Lake Tribe, I don't think trying to break the Mountain Clans is a good idea. First of all we likely don't have the manpower. Secondly we don't know the terrain and our advantages that we rely on likely won't apply in combat against them.
Trading seems like a longer term solution, though our diplomacy has been hit or miss on occasion and I'm not sure I want to gamble with an option like that when we already hav a conflict brewing.
Letting Arrow Lake deal with it themselves will likely isolate our ally, or make them trust us less, and possibly cost us some lapis lazuli.
I think a wall would work best here. Considering we know the area around Arrow Lake has clay, we could likely build a wall right there rather than having to cart bricks all the way over there. Then again, we'd obviously be gifting them with an important technology.
I'm guessing the Peace Builders have some aquaculture of some sort considering how long they've been on the Great Bay.
If we chose to raid the Peace Builders right now while their warriors were away we could likely eliminate them when their warriors return and futilely assault our walls. Then again that might be seen as too treacherous.
Right now out of all of these options I think food should be a key consideration. We are barely on the edge as it is with a tiny surplus, and our agriculture will take some time to recover. Expanding our fishing will likely give us more resistance from climate changes, and will help us innovate in that instance.
I think our morale is fine right now, but keep in mind, we have two stacks of Annual Festival at the moment, if we choose this again we will likely lock it in, which might help us against the Peace Builders in our ideological war later.
Another raid has appeal to me, as doubling down on it will probably trigger our trait and will likely increase our chance of success against the South Lake Tribe.
What exactly will undergo ordeal do here? @Redium
Don't think we need to trade with the Northlands right now, we already have it locked in with them. While trading with the Pearl Divers may be nice, our crisis right now takes more priority. Same with the Peace Builders.
Right, if we vote to raid, vote to do so under the Raid rather than the Crisis choice. Will our Trial By Fire Trait help us here if one of our raid fails at first and a second raid is chosen?
Gotcha. Does this change how our actions will be taken during non-hero turns?
So he's definitely dead next turn then?
Can we even feasibly trade with them from where we are?
In any case here are my votes:
[X] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
[X] [Crisis] Build morale. (Annual Festival)
You're generally locked out of things based on the number of actions it would take. Rush Builders actually saves you a lot here since it gives a flat 33% buff to build rates. You'll need to develop better technology in order overcome that.
The big one is canals. You're currently locked out of larger boat technologies because the White River and Great River have rapids on them. There's one right by the Fingers that aren't really a problem for canoes, but go any bigger and the rapids become impassible. The Great River also has at least two sections that will need to be bypassed if you want to be able to sail, say, longships up and down.
You're also generally locked out of certain centralizing projects. Something like The Law, a Great Library, Wonder tier walls, a lot of Wonders that only have a single location really, a Grand Temple; all of those are too centralized for your mode of government. People aren't willing to send resources to another part of the country for the benefit of something they won't see. If it serves as a prototype that they can then use (i.e. The Hill), then that's fine, but not if it's something that would only benefit one settlement.
There's also going to be issues if you centralize to heavily around one settlement.
The Mountain Clans are basically directly south of the Fingers. They're the mountain range between South Lake and Arrow Lake.
There's probably some of the Old Warriors amongst the Mountain Clans, but not that many. The Mountain Clans have always been a minor faction. The land they're on is marginal and difficult to navigate. Most of the bands living there are likely former slaves who escaped from South Lake.
It's going to be 'bet' of 1 Stabiltiy. If your strategy to live out the crisis goes well, +1 Stab. If it goes poorly, you lose an additional -1 Stab.
Narratively, it's all about psyching yourselves up for struggles. It involves a lot of generic but good advice; securing extra food, training for war, building more tools, etc. There's also a ritualistic component; chanting, songs and dance, animal sacrifices, etc.
Yes. Trial by Fire will help you if either raid fails.
Your Economy does, not your Government.
Do you think he's feeling lucky?
If you use Arrow Lake as a relay, then yes. If you want to personally trade with them, you're going to need to secure the settlement location at the mouth of the White River.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I'm not quite sure I got it right yet. Do mothers/food surplus males have to wait till Christmas to be full adults or is it just that their collective welcome party is then? Also, how is the adulthood of people that marry or get adopted into the tribe work now? It has happened several times in living memory and even more often in legends of the recent past after all.
And is there any difference in how we treat prisoner "children" vs prisoner adults and/or how we consider the difference between one and the other? After all we could very easily capture some South Lakers alive that happen to be childless female warriors, not to mention that we have no clue how productive the enemy men were before we subdued them.
On that note, aren't debtors practically always people that somehow consumed more than they produced lately, be it due to tough luck or incompetence?
Lastly, how rigid is our trial gendering right now. I mean a gatherer man (feminine bearing or sexual attraction aside) can't possibly pass the Trial of Motherhood but can still become a "man" at least on paper and live their lives as especially productive gatherers, but what about the rare female hunters and warriors who wish to adopt a man's role in life? They could easily achieve food surplus and may very well forego motherhood, if only allowed to do so by the tribe. From what you wrote this kind of Stone age transgenderism is not unprecedented in our tribe. The formalization of the Trials of Adulthood leaving our female hunters to suddenly be considered children would definitely be a hit to their masculine pride.
- Location
- USA
So would a canal be a megaproject then and would our dam technology we learned a while back be useful?
How exactly do we try to increase centralization? Or will that occur naturally? These all sound like cool projects for much later, as we don't even have writing yet.
Are they united or are they disparate clans? That might change how we deal with them now and later.
Oh okay, I'm pretty sure our strategy for now is a good one, however I don't think the benefits are worth it considering I don't think Kaspar will live again next turn. Watch as he lives to 100 just to spite me...
So would that help us if we only take one raid option?
What's the difference here?
Yes, now please roll at nat 100 so our god emperor ascends.
Yeah, this makes things harder if we want a long term relationship.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
So what if we do that and then no ordeal comes along? Also, how would we "lose" the bet?
Right now I feel like the Undergo Ordeal action is misnamed. It seems it should be called Prepare for Ordeal instead. As it is now, it seems I'm not the only one who thinks time and time again that we are purposely initiating some kind of planned and announced crisis in order to prove ourselves to ourselves and the spirits.
- Location
- nz
[X] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
'Christmas' is just their welcome party. They're full adults from the moment they complete their trials.
For those who didn't grow up among the People, there's a certain amount of assumption about who's an adult and who is not. If you're dealing with someone else, the People would just default to whatever form of hierarchy that the other tribe has. They would respect those who are shown respect and ignore those who are ignored. They would be more respectful in general because there's no reason to cause pointless offense, but that's it.
Outsiders who come to live among the People are put through their trials as quickly as possible. Someone who's a 'full' member of the People would simply complete their trials as normal. A woman who's captured who claims to be a mother but has no children, will be examined by the tribe's female elders for signs of past pregnancy. They're likely to be found because pregnancy is destructive on the body and fairly obvious if you know what to look for.
If they're a captive, then their status doesn't matter. They're treated as Debtors and Debtors are, at least temporarily, net drains on society, so their voice isn't considered. Captives are treated the same. After all, it's not like you're going to give enemy warriors a say in policy decisions. The distinction between 'child' and 'adult' captive doesn't really exist, their voice doesn't matter either way. Someone who's taken by the tribe and is extremely young will either be raised by their family (if they can be found) or adopted by one of the People's families.
South Lake doesn't have any female warriors so that's not really going to come up.
Female warriors are going to be in an interesting position for the next few turns. They technically wouldn't be considered adults if they put off childbirth, so there's going to be a certain amount of agitation for them either focus on having children or to be recognized and trialed as men. Considering that low-level elective councils are dominated by women, that agitation is going to get support and you're likely going to get a chance to recognize female warriors either directly as men or 'something different', but still equivalent, or ban female warriors all together.
This will be a few turns in the future.
Dams would help build better canals. They're both hydrodynamic projects and would thus create cross applicable skills. In some cases, a dam may be required before building a canal becomes possible.
You're likely going to evolve actions later on that give centralization. For now, make decisions that would centralize power in the hands of a few.
To some extent, it's inevitable as technology progresses.
Disparate clans. There's also an enormous variation in size. Some 'clans' are only two dozen people, while others can be a few hundred. There's absolutely no overarching control in the mountains.
Yes.
Government and Economy are the two different broad classes that can be used to define your society. Government type is how your society is run: feudalism, despotism, representative democracy, kingdom, oligarchy, etc. Economy is how resources are allocated: palace economy, mercantilism, capitalism, command economy, guilds, etc.
Both give special effects. Your economy does right now, but your government doesn't yet.
You're in the middle of an Ordeal: the weather. If an Ordeal (and note, the definition of that can be extremely broad) does not come up, then you pass by default. The check is: are things better now than they were before? If yes or about the same, then +1 Stab. If no, -1 Stab.
[X] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
Really common for tribal societies to go "okay, you're a man then, since you do man things, the spirits must be giving you a hell of an ordeal".
Last edited:
- Location
- United States
[X] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
[X] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
[X] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
So there's going to be a push for women to be able to reach adulthood by either parenthood or utility, while men are likely going to get stuck with only a single option regardless?
- Location
- Canada
I think clan families should still form an here is how I think they could form.
To be recognize by the people as an adult a women has to be a mother or to bare a child, and being a mother requires things such as taking care of children and the house you live in which requires lots of hours to do, so to do anything beyond being a mother or baring a child. Large families like say a clan of 20 or more in one family can help take care of children boom you got a clan forming, with things like rotating watch over children or a system where the older watch the young you still got the same amount of adults and people helping and assisting in varying other things more then just taking care of children or the house hold.
Heck with the utility trial for men you get free baby sitters, although they have to be rather trusted in the people to get such a position. Which can open relations among other clans, like say, Clan Fisher has been friends with Clan Wood for generations as such Clan Fisher young boys looking to prove themselves adults can work for Clan Wood doing varying chores and fostering marriages between one another.
Can still keep your elected councilors.
To be recognize by the people as an adult a women has to be a mother or to bare a child, and being a mother requires things such as taking care of children and the house you live in which requires lots of hours to do, so to do anything beyond being a mother or baring a child. Large families like say a clan of 20 or more in one family can help take care of children boom you got a clan forming, with things like rotating watch over children or a system where the older watch the young you still got the same amount of adults and people helping and assisting in varying other things more then just taking care of children or the house hold.
Heck with the utility trial for men you get free baby sitters, although they have to be rather trusted in the people to get such a position. Which can open relations among other clans, like say, Clan Fisher has been friends with Clan Wood for generations as such Clan Fisher young boys looking to prove themselves adults can work for Clan Wood doing varying chores and fostering marriages between one another.
Can still keep your elected councilors.
Maybe...
Not really. Female hunters will push for the opportunity for them to be able to take on the male Trial of Utility since they would be fulfilling a male social role. This wouldn't be open to every woman, only a small subset. How this is interpreted socially will be part of the decision. Additionally, this is only one possible solution to the issue, you'll have other choices that you can make as well. You're probably not going to have to make this decision for 3+/-1 turn so it's not really relevant now.
To some extent you already have clans now (it's on your Concepts section as Extended Kinship Groups). All of your structures are longhouses. Those are big enough that they normally house entire families; generally 20 so around 80-100 people. Newly married adults are given their own alcove so the number can vary quite a bit depending on where the inhabitants are in their life cycle.
The way they're constructed, there's essentially a common aisle running down the middle of the longhouse's structure. It's flanked on both sides by alcoves where individual families bunk down to sleep. Above and below (the alcoves are generally raised off the ground) is storage space for the family's possessions. Every... four alcoves shares a cook fire that's located in the middle of the aisle at the center of the longhouse. The longhouse itself only has two entrances/exits, at the extreme ends of the structure.
This wasn't explained in depth yet, but it's why during turn 14.0, Kaspar could see one of his grandchildren tending to a fire at the other end of his longhouse while he was speaking to his Slate.
Generally, the elected council is made up of one resident of each longhouse. That's not a rule, it's just a simple way to ensure representatives can know the people they support while still having a small and effective council.
