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From Stone to the Stars

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I mean, talking about that problem in particular is partially relevant.

Because the weighting? That was due to two things in particular combining: One Value Line getting advanced rather far, and another bunch of Values that combined in strange ways with our previously chosen actions.

The Value line that got advanced? It was the line that's all about Elites. And it hurt hard when combined with the other Values and actions put together.

It basically became a case of 'We're the centre of the world, everything important comes to us and anything new has probably been discovered by us already'... Which is what cost us further development into gunpowder once it was invented. Because we'd gone heavy on agriculture and the things that boost agriculture, including stuff that meant we either used the saltpetre from sewage for gunpowder, or used the sewage as fertiliser/to produce black earth for better farming.

Of course, the Ymaryn being the best people in the world had no need for this quaint thing called 'gunpowder' when our legions of crossbowmen serve just as well. And using the sewage for better agriculture means we can feed even MORE crossbowmen. Basically, we stumbled, tripped and ran into becoming an Isolationist China. Unfortunately for us, we were right next door to the equivalent of Europe, which would have meant bad things in the future for us sooner than happened to the IRL Chinese... and is possibly going to happen to the Not!Chinese in the continuation thread of PoC.

Of course, the Mongol Hordes broke us before that could happen due to that vote happening like that. But the weighting was all due to the fact we'd ended up having a nation that emphasised being the best with being isolationist. And we were good enough to pull it off for a long time. Just not forever, as innovations happened, our best started getting caught up in their own propaganda and became less than they could be, and then someone else appeared who was as great as our best believed they were, and they weren't happy with how we'd treated him... Oh, and there's all these cool inventions that we've ignored as useless or beneath us which just might have something to them after all...

Shorter version: The disaster at the end of the first PoC thread, and especially the lightning rounds, is a way of showing that you have to be careful with how you balance things. Because some things seem great at first, and they are! But as you develop them more and more, without developing the things around it that assist in it being as great as it is, then you start seeing problems happen... And if you aren't very careful once those problems start appearing, then you may discover that the thing you were focusing on developing has started to improve itself for the sake of itself, instead of anything else. Which typically means you are headed for a collapse when everything else can't hold up to the demands that the 'improving' thing puts on them.

Which is also why I'm really nervous of how our Elite Value Line can develop, and want to ensure that once it unlocks, we only develop it further once all the other Values have been improved to compensate. As well as having the administrative, educational, and social structures needed to support the development.

Really Short Version: Unbalanced Value development can hurt really hard, really easily, especially if there's an unseen (or seen but nothing done to deal with) synergy with the actions the nation takes.
 
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PoC ended because the QM wanted it to in a meta decision. In-universe reasons happened later in order to justify the OOC decision made by the QM.

Not that over empathising elite isn't a horrible idea, but that was how PoC died, not why it died. The method not the cause.

Pyro Hawk said:
Really Short Version: Unbalanced Value development can hurt really hard, really easily, especially if there's an unseen (or seen but nothing done to deal with) synergy with the actions the nation takes.
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This is still correct.
 
Personally speaking, I like all of the values we currently have.

The question is, to counteract our own elite trait, which of our values exactly do we promote to support it? Three of our values are at maxed development, those being that of flat arrow outlook, be the very best, and trial by fire. That leaves us with stone skinned, wonderful world, and retributive justice. Arguably the only one I can see out of those which might possibly counteract any corrupt elites would be our justice trait.

I don't see how we can try to guide our way into improving it however, as it will likely have to spring up on its own due to a crisis or dilemma or something.

Any thoughts on how we can avoid the pitfalls of others?
 
Oshha said:
PoC ended because the QM wanted it to in a meta decision. In-universe reasons happened later in order to justify the OOC decision made by the QM.

Not that over empathising elite isn't a horrible idea, but that was how PoC died, not why it died. The method not the cause.
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To be fair to AN, I can very easily see the initial direction of the Lightning Rounds being how we actually would have played. We most likely wouldn't have ignored gunpowder as much, but I can see further development of it being slow and only done when the Econ damaging effects of diverting sewage for saltpetre production can be countered.

That said, the 'Piss off Genghis Khan' vote is definitely something that only happened because of the short voting period, though I suspect we would have run into a very similar problem sooner rather than later even if we didn't end up fighting him if we'd actually played that long.

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As for something relevant... Really, there's two main ways to counter the Elite line causing problems.

First is to only pick it as one of the values we advance, not the main one. Which we have been doing.

The other way is to ensure that our education capabilities are very strong, because that allows more people to be able to become Elites due to the reduced social stratification that easy education allows. That is where PoC fell down. We pushed the Elites hard (albeit unknowingly in parts) and we always meant to improve education infrastructure, but with everything bursting into flames all the time, it was always dropped for more immediate needs.

As it turns out, a bunch of the problems were caused by that lack of education. We just couldn't see why for some of them, so didn't know that part of the way to prevent fires popping up was to fix education.

We'd finally gotten around to actually knowing we needed to do Education now no matter what when the game ended and went to Lightning Rounds. It was also when we discovered just how horrible the Elite line can get because we'd pushed it forward much faster than the supporting infrastructure...
 
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Pyro Hawk said:
To be fair to AN, I can very easily see the initial direction of the Lightning Rounds being how we actually would have played. We most likely wouldn't have ignored gunpowder as much, but I can see further development of it being slow and only done when the Econ damaging effects of diverting sewage for saltpetre production can be countered.

That said, the 'Piss off Genghis Khan' vote is definitely something that only happened because of the short voting period, though I suspect we would have run into a very similar problem sooner rather than later even if we didn't end up fighting him if we'd actually played that long.
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Naw it had a historical basis. Nearly every single nomad invasion had the early vote being some variant of "Charge in and break their face before they get momentum" before the analysts come in and show with powerpoint charts how fucked we'd be.
 
Pyro Hawk said:
That said, the 'Piss off Genghis Khan' vote is definitely something that only happened because of the short voting period, though I suspect we would have run into a very similar problem sooner rather than later even if we didn't end up fighting him if we'd actually played that long.
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We would have had a chance to beat him, since PoC was very diplomatic and tech taking, it was literally one of our values, there wasn't any reason to not take gunpowder, hell we've NEVER been isolationist in that quest, except for when we were stuck in our cities due to plague. We were even stupidly interventionist, with the war about slaves. The lightning round didn't match anything we did the whole quest.

Edit; Shit still of topic... Uhhh... anyways I don't think we'll have any such problems here for some time due to our low hierarchy
 
Eh, it was a victim of success. Player base was too large to effectively communicate with over steering the angry mob.
Speaking as one of those running in front trying to channel it in the direction of my preference :p
 
I'm going to ask that people remain on topic for now. This isn't PoC and I don't want the quest start rehashing the arguments that occurred there.
 
Just found this quest. I like it!

[X] [Pay] An elected council.
[X] [Politics] Select one Big Man to become a Bigger Man (likely Crystal Lake)
[X] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Motherhood: a girl becomes a woman when she gives birth.
 
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Shadows said:
Just found this quest. I like it!

[X] [Pay] An elected council.
[X] [Politics] Select one Big Man to become a Bigger Man (likely Crystal Lake)
[X] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Utility: a girl becomes a woman when she becomes an asset to her settlement.
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Vote is closed. Though your first two options won, and i think the men one as well.
 
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14.1 Cauldron of Earth
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] [Pay] An elected council.
    [X] [Politics] Select one Big Man to become a Bigger Man (likely Crystal Lake)
    [X] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
    [X] [Women] Trial of Motherhood: a girl becomes a woman when she gives birth.

    Government Upgraded: Duarchic Big Man (Archaic) -> Tribal Council (First Among Equals)
    The People are ruled by a council, made of their best. Men and women of great strength, popularity, intelligence, and ambition; they are the ones that have outwitted all of their competition. A decentralized system of government, it is highly meritocratic, and combines the best parts of overarching policy and local control, with neither quite as effective as a more specialized system. Two levels of this council exist; one at a local level, elected from all adult members of the settlement, and a second that makes decisions for the People as a whole. The second council is made up of those who have been elected at the lower level.
    Pros: Development occurs organically
    Cons: Decentralized government, some centralization required projects locked

    The lands to the south boiled. Roiling and bubbling like sweet sap being transformed to sugar in a great stone cauldron, the south quickly bubbled over. The reports that Kaspar had of the land to the south were muddled, perhaps even unbelievable. There were tales of a kind most dark. Families turning against brother and sister, women abandoning their children and men feasting on the flesh of other men. The struggles that the People experienced seemed to be nothing as compared to chaos that was born down south.

    Kaspar's mind ached as he slowly worked to separate fact from fiction. The web of lies versus half-truths or mistakes unknowingly made. Numerous refugees had streamed up from the south, begging for the People's protection. All of them were eager to share stories in exchange for food.

    According to them, many of the tribes that lived there depended greatly on agriculture. Instead of wild rice like the People primarily grew, they depended most on corn. There were other grains, similar to wild rice, but that grew on land, and a flower that apparently came in a riot of colours from green and yellow, to purple, orange, and red. The freezing rain came in the middle of early planting for corn. Many of the plants were wiped out instantly. The riot flowers mostly lived and grew, but only for a single year. After that, the flowers did not bloom again. Fields of them were left in the years after, brown and dead. Bones slowly piled upon beneath the flowers, half-eaten stems trapped in desperate fingers, vainly trying to stuff empty bellies.

    Little food was grown that year in the south.

    It might have been something that the south could have survived. It would require extensive hunts, fishing, and other traditional techniques, but all ones that were well known. It would be a year of hardship, one without new births, one where the weak would starve, and the curse of sickness would stalk those once thought healthy, but it would have been something that could have passed. A terrible Ordeal, but one that could be overcome.

    For the south, that was not an option. South Lake, the greatest, or at least most threatening, of the tribes to the south, depended heavily on slave labour. Insatiable in demand, they forced ever greater numbers to toil endlessly under fear of the scourge. They grew necessary crops to feed South Lake's burgeoning population. Many of their men and women hadn't the faintest idea how to clear land, plant, or tend to crops. They had turned everything within themselves to be warriors.

    When the raining ice destroyed the crops, everything collapsed. Their slaves realized that suddenly there was not going to be enough food to get everyone through the winter. South Lake's warriors had never been shy about ensuring they would be feed — comfortably — before any of the slaves received even a scrap.

    Death was clearly in the future. It could be a long, slow death from starvation over the winter, or it could be the uncertain threat that all of the slaves lived under. South Lake was capricious and brutal in stamping out dissent, breaking anyone who might rise amongst their slaves and led them against the tribe. Thus, when the revolt finally came, it was uncoordinated, bloody, and spontaneous. South Lake's farmers rose up in dribs and drabs, turning the tools of the field into weapons with which to kill their masters. A digging sick was a pale imitation of a proper war club, but when a group of dozens came for you in the night?

    The response from South Lake's warriors was immediate and utterly eclipsed everything that they had done to their slaves previously. Tales carried by the few slaves that had escaped up to the north claimed that the warriors of South Lake had transformed. Taking on the shapes and skins of beasts, they devoured any who opposed them.

    The purges continued for years. Another disparate group of farmers would rise up, strike down their immediate oppresses, and then end up crushed once reinforcements came. Many fled, taking off into the wilds, near to be seen again. Some, a small resistance, fled into the mountains east of South Lake. Instead of dispersing like many of those that fled north or south, they concentrated and continued their War of The Knife against South Lake. They were few in number, but they were a group of the hardest, most willful and most hateful. Nothing would dissuade them, there would be vengeance.

    Seeing all of this, the Island Makers responded with absolute glee. Due to their defeats in previous years, they were unable to truly capitalize on South Lake's weakness and force them back. What they could do instead was grow and recover nearly all of their old wounds. Unlike South Lake, the Island Makes drew most of the food they ate from the waters. Fish, seaweed, and other products were more than enough to sustain and grow their numbers. They still struck viciously against any strangers that passed by them. They clearly wanted revenge for previous defeats, but those they struck down were often not the warriors of South Lake that had so humbled them. Instead, they were mostly escaped slaves, trying to make their way north, trying to reach somewhere that old, vague tales mentioned as being safe.

    The entire region had descended into chaos and everything was in flux. Kaspar knew that it was better to let the south shake itself out, but that was not possible. The Island Makers had equipped a delegation and sent them up the White River to the People. There were tales of the People's war against the Hundred Bands. It was well know that the Hundred Bands fought, and lost, along the White River, but nothing was known about the powerful tribe that defeated them.

    The Island Makers wanted to put that to use. They spoke of the evils of South Lake, the brutality with which they treated those they conquered. Everyone not born fully to their tribe were little more than animals decorating the landscape. If South Lake were to put down their slave revolts and recover from their wounds, they would eventually come for the People. South Lake would not be satisfied until the Island Makers worked side-by-side in their fields. With that as the only other option, why shouldn't the People work together with the Island Makers?

    Kaspar could easily see where their logic fell apart. The Island Makers were ignorant. They didn't know that the People had managed to trade with South Lake for a full generation without incident. If South Lake did recover, a prospect that would likely take generations, the People could easily tempt them again with more obsidian. Eventually, South Lake would grow over confident and strike at the People, but by that time, it was likely that the People would absolutely eclipse them in strength.

    On the other hand, now would be the ideal time to strike. South Lake's food stores and fields had been destroyed by freezing rain, their slaves were in revolt, and many of the ones who hadn't fled had turned things into a brutal hit-and-run war to the knife. If the People could rely on the Island Makers as allies, now would be the time to strike. The Island Makers even suggested that they were willing as to go so far to supply any of the People's warriors out of their own stores.

    Should the People aid the Island Makers against South Lake?

    [ ] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
    [ ] [Raid] Yes, allow young men to go south and fight.
    [ ] [Raid] No. This war is not the People's.

    Within a few weeks of the departure of the Island Maker's delegation, Arrow Lake returned to trade. They spoke of difficulties, but not ones that had plagued the rest of the region. The mountains west of them had apparently shielded Arrow Lake from most of the freezing rain that had ravaged the south. Their crops were reduced due to the linger cold in the air, but not nearly to the degree that would likely be a problem. What did trouble them lived in the mountains to the west.

    There had always been a number of small bands that made their homes among the forests, mountains, and valleys to the west, but that number had rapidly been increasing in recent years. Normally not a concern, they were sometimes trade partners, sometimes enemies. Violence had increased, and Arrow Lake had begun to worry about the security of their lapis mines. Nestled in the foothills that surrounded the mountains, their main mine was almost opposite of their main settlement. If the mine was raided, reinforcing it would be almost impossible. The soil was too poor to allow the building of proper farms and what hunting and fishing existed was as utilized as heavily as Arrow Lake could make it.

    Since the People have traded with Arrow Lake for longer than anyone could remember, they though the People would be motivated in finding a solution, one that would protect Arrow Lake's livelihood while also securing an import for the People. Any help would be rewarded, Arrow Lake was quick to promise.

    How do the People help Arrow Lake?

    [ ] [Arrow] Break the Mountain Clans! (Raid: Mountain Clans)
    [ ] [Arrow] Talk to them, maybe there's a solution there? (Trade: Mountain Clans)
    [ ] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
    [ ] [Arrow] Let Arrow Lake solve their own problems.

    Kaspar had kept as close an eye as possible on the Peace Builders. If conflict was going to arise as a result of the poor weather destroy crops, it would be from them. Miraculously, the Peace Builders had been remarkably sheltered from the freezing rain. Kaspar could hardly deduce what quirk of the spirits had saved them, but the evidence was obvious. Their settlement on the east of the Great Bay continued to grow, perhaps even swelled with the number of refugees that it was taking on from the south. Most of those were simply more of the Peace Builders, relocating away from their ravaged farmlands in the south.

    A few years into the weather crisis, the Peace Builder's Skalds completely failed to return to Hill Guard. Scouting of the Peace Builder's camp showed that they were missing an enormous section of their tribe. Closer scouting indicated that it was mostly young and middle-aged men who had left the Peace Builder's camp. It was clear to all what had occurred. The Peace Builders had gone to war, taking advantage of their relative immunity to the weather. Their rivals in the south were not going to be in for a good time.

    All that was left was to organize the People's response to the crisis.

    [ ] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
    [ ] [Crisis] Build morale. (Annual Festival)
    [ ] [Crisis] Take out a rival. (Raid: Peace Builders OR South Lake)
    [ ] [Crisis] Appease the spirits! (Undergo Ordeal)
    [ ] [Crisis] Touch base with someone? (Trade: Pearl Divers OR Northlands OR Peace Builders)

    AN: There is a Vote Moratorium currently on. I will open voting after I wake up. Any votes before the threadmark will not be counted. Tag me if you have any questions you want answered.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • [ ] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
    [ ] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)

    Nurture what allies we have and gain the friendship of the soon to be dominant power to the South.

    [ ] [Crisis] Build morale. (Annual Festival)
    [ ] [Crisis] Take out a rival. (Raid: Peace Builders OR South Lake)
    [ ] [Crisis] Appease the spirits! (Undergo Ordeal)

    Torn between the three of these. Ordeals, if we can succeed in them, will do wonders for us, but a chance to show off our military might against South Lake by utterly crushing them would do wonders in securing our position as people no one wants to mess with.

    Then, there's the Festival. We need to build up our Culture while the Peace Builder's are busy so we can better resist their attempts to convert us.
     
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    Redium said:
    ] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
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    Redium said:
    [ ] [Crisis] Take out a rival. (Raid: Peace Builders OR South Lake)
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    What would happen if we selected both vs South Lake? Or, stranger still, 'no' wins in the specific South Lake task but then we simultaneously vote to raid South Lake in the [Crisis] task?

    Edit:
    @Redium I am also a bit confused regarding the government type. I thought we voted to have a Bigger Man, and that the elected council was clearly below him in hierarchy.

    Lastly, regarding the Trials of Adulthood, I assume that (based on the megaprojects tab in the first page) while food surplus/motherhood is the hard part, there are still some symbolic trials and rites which mean that children don't instantly become adults after reaching the main criterion, but first have to be ritually acknowledged as such. How does that currently look?
     
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    Hannz said:
    [ ] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
    [ ] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)

    Nurture what allies we have and gain the friendship of the soon to be dominant power to the South.

    [ ] [Crisis] Build morale. (Annual Festival)
    [ ] [Crisis] Take out a rival. (Raid: Peace Builders OR South Lake)
    [ ] [Crisis] Appease the spirits! (Undergo Ordeal)

    Torn between the three of these. Ordeals, if we can succeed in them, will do wonders for us, but a chance to show off our military might against South Lake by utterly crushing them would do wonders in securing our position as people no one wants to mess with.

    Then, there's the Festival. We need to build up our Culture while the Peace Builder's are busy so we can better resist their attempts to convert us.
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    Hm from what I understand of this you want us to build our culture during the crisis while also getting rid of rivals and dangerous around us?

    At the same time stating to most of the the other settlements that we are stable power, I could also see us later doing a join us follow our bigger man in times of war. Due to us building them walls, which from what I understand of the update are being threatened by this crisis.

    Man if we keep this up we would build THEE wall around our settlement surrounding it like south park


    Settlements are surrounded by walls like south part, before said walls go off to continue to loop around our lands!

    If we make the walls big enough they could be used like roads to transport goods over a smooth surface.

    Just a thought for the future.
     
    Rafin said:
    Or, stranger still, 'no' wins in the specific South Lake task but then we simultaneously vote to raid South Lake in the [Crisis] task?
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    We would probably be raiding them separately from the Island Makers.

    Also, if we do not break South Lake, we may well be seeing an influx of refugees/slaves running from them or the conflict with Island Makers. Because of that, I think we need to prepare our economy in case some people will end up running to us.

    [] [Crisis] Food, you fools!

    Helping Arrow Lake also seems like a good idea, the question is how. Raiding Mountain Clans might work but we should avoid commiting to multiple raids at once, I think. If we want to tie them closer to us, then negotiating and becoming the middleman in their relations is good. And finally, we could make them a nice wall. The tech will inevitably be stolen in the process of building (we won't be doing all the work ourselves, will we?) and strenghten Arrow Lake in future conflicts against Mountain Clans as the Clans seem to live at high altitude, where climate is colder and winds are harsher, which means they should have good fire mastery to survive. And guess what fire is bad against? Brick walls.
     
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    Was kinda we get a bigger man out of the politics, unless right now Kasper is considered automatic ruler of the people due to age so the bigger man thing hasn't formed due to this. It would once he dies.
     
    Yea wheres the Bigger Man? I can only assume that Kasper is taking that role right now because of basically being like a corpse due to immense age leading to his wisdom combined with his super intelligence.
     
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    [ ] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)

    Not sure we are invested enough into doing that. I mean, whats in it for us?

    [ ] [Raid] Yes, allow young men to go south and fight.

    A lesser commitment, but weakens other raid options. This would b e good to get us up to date on latest military ideas and technologies at least.

    [ ] [Raid] No. This war is not the People's.

    South Lake was a trade partner once, and raiding them would hurt future trade prospects...if they survived.

    [ ] [Arrow] Break the Mountain Clans! (Raid: Mountain Clans)

    Preemptive strike, but noting that they're far away enough that doing real damage would be hard.

    [ ] [Arrow] Talk to them, maybe there's a solution there? (Trade: Mountain Clans)

    Try to solve things peacably. However, from all indications these are acts of desperation. I'm not sure how trade could defuse tensions here when the root cause is people being worried that they'd starve.

    [ ] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)

    Definitely secures Arrow Lake, and opens the path to vassalizing them down the road with continued investment
    But if it fails we've shown them how walls are made and it'd be hard to fight them later on.

    [ ] [Arrow] Let Arrow Lake solve their own problems.

    Avoid getting stuck in for good or ill.


    [ ] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
    [ ] [Crisis] Build morale. (Annual Festival)
    [ ] [Crisis] Take out a rival. (Raid: Peace Builders OR South Lake)
    [ ] [Crisis] Appease the spirits! (Undergo Ordeal)
    [ ] [Crisis] Touch base with someone? (Trade: Pearl Divers OR Northlands OR Peace Builders)

    Of these...personally in this time we want to make sure our food supply continues to be stable because the climate is working itself up to something seriously nasty.

    Personal combo:
    [ ] [Raid] Yes, allow young men to go south and fight.
    [ ] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
    [ ] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)
     
    [ ] [Raid] No. This war is not the People's
    [ ] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake)
    [ ] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)

    It's now a time of climate change and food insecurity right? We probably shouldn't go and provoke unnecessary fights. Building walls is something that we do apparently so let's do another wall. Also, we will probably need more food...more food is always good..
     
    I'm thinking of getting rid of South Lake while they are weak. While peace is possible, do we want peace with such horrific people instead of crushing them? I don't so while we could aim for peace and be successful, I want to take the opportunity to crush them. It also allows us to build ties with the Island Builders.

    As for Arrow Lake, I would like to find a peaceful resolution. That means either talking to Mountain Clan or building a wall. If we can just talk to the Mountain Clans using the trade option without having to commit to long term ties and trading like we did with South Lake, I think that option is best. Otherwise, we should build Arrow Lake a wall.

    For the crisis, there are food shortages so we need to stock up on food. Having more food will also provide us with more options depending on how much we have to spare.

    [ ] [Raid] Yes, launch a raid! (Raid: South Lake)
    [ ] [Arrow] Build them a wall. (Build Wall: Arrow Lake) or [ ] [Arrow] Talk to them, maybe there's a solution there? (Trade: Mountain Clans)
    [ ] [Crisis] Food, you fools! (Expand Aquaculture: Fish)

    @Redium Does trading with the Mountain Clans force us to commit to long term trade with them without being able to attack them like it with South Lake or is it just the option to talk with the Mountain Clans without any long term commitment.
     
    Hannz said:
    Stability and helping mend the People/Hundred Band divide. That, and the friendship of South Lake's enemies so we can secure our southern border with a strong, friendly buffer state.
    Click to expand...
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    That and South Lake is pretty evil and I don't want it to exist anymore and we got the perfect opportunity to make that happen. So a mixture of moral and pragmatic reasons.

    We should decide whether or not we want peace with South Lake and if want that sort of people are as neighbours.
     
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