We'll, how do you feel about Taylor saying things like "Dad, can we talk" or "Dad, I need to talk to you" and him replying with a "Not now Taylor" or a "We'll talk later baby" and never doing so? After something like that happens a few times a child would likely give up and it does fit with what Chibipoe wrote.
Firebird, a Worm AU/Xover?
- Thread starter chibipoe
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We'll, how do you feel about Taylor saying things like "Dad, can we talk" or "Dad, I need to talk to you" and him replying with a "Not now Taylor" or a "We'll talk later baby" and never doing so? After something like that happens a few times a child would likely give up and it does fit with what Chibipoe wrote.
Actually canon is that she tried going to authority figures early on and lost faith in the practice when it was spectacularly unsuccessful.
While sad, that doesn't not change the fact that he almost certainly was never told who was bullying her, or even straight out that she was being bullied. I am not trying to say it's Taylor's fault at all, but if she had insisted and told him straight up, he probably would have listened.
Ok, you are repeating the post I replied to almost verbatim. Look you can not ignore canon characterization while at the same time using the PRT's canon sins against it.
Taylor has proven to be an unreliable narrator, and if you refuse to see any other point of view we are just going to go in circles.
Fact Taylor is sneaking out and lying about it.
She refuses to stop
Danny cannot control her
The. Protectorate can.
Even if she runs away, which Danny cannot stop, they can watch her.
Drich
Von Neumann Writing Machine
Which Danny knows how? Remember in story knowledge vs meta knowledge, let's avoid space battles competent if we can, huh?
OverReactionGuy
Verified Sanity
Honestly... I am going to ignore this thread until the next update.
The debate about Danny Taylor and the PRT being evil mustache twirling villains has gone on in complete circles.
The debate about Danny Taylor and the PRT being evil mustache twirling villains has gone on in complete circles.
Eh, I've done it before. Later.
Of course acknowledging that argument acknowledges that Danny's goal here isn't just keeping her safe it's controlling her. If he just wanted her to be safe then he'd be more open to the alternatives she has available (and may or may not have brought up because ambiguous precog attempts). Looking at it from the perspective of him being in the right for doing it is looking at it from the perspective that Taylor is solely responsible for the situation which has been established as not true. Maybe the wards are the "best choice" from the frame of reference Danny and Taylor have and based off Danny's motives and goals (as opposed to Taylor's), I know that placed in Taylor's position (to the maximum amount I am capable of projecting myself into her position) I would go straight to the wards, except that's not the point. The point is that joining the Wards is something which will color her entire future and career as a cape whether in a good or bad light and someone else is trying to make that choice for her for their own selfish reasons and that cannot be okay.
Edit- and yes Taylor's an unreliable narrator but there's a limit to how far you can take that unless you are putting forth that Taylor has had an insanity break and is imagining actual conversations instead of just the motives behind them and that strikes me as something that should be the basis of its own other fic.
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What can I say, I haven't changed my opinion. I believe that the main reason Danny wants to sign her up as a Ward is not because he believes it would be better for her but because he doesn't want the responsibility. I've given my opinion and the reasons why I believe it. (Nicholai has also posted something about this that I found quite insightful.)
As to Taylor being an unreliable narrator, did her father dispute what she said? I did not read it that way. Which means that until we get this from another angle there is no reason to doubt it. Her words to him may by biased but should be considered to be based on facts until we learn differently.
I'm also not arguing about the facts as given by yourself. (Taylor is sneaking out and lying about it, refusing to stop, Danny being unable to control her or the PRT/Protectorate being able to do so in his eyes.) I'm talking about Danny's motivations and why I have a problem with the way he attempted to sign her up for the Wards.
As to cannon characterization, what do you believe she was like before being bullied in the original story?
I believe she was a chatterbox, although a bit less so than before her mothers death. (Interlude 19)
I also believe she was did well at school. (Tangle 6.9)
Being bullied changed her. A great deal. Danny did not notice.
Well, until we get more information we'll have to disagree.
It's pretty clear that both Taylor and Danny are at fault. And you know what? That's something for them to work out together, after they manage to not self-destruct their relationship. And with the pieces falling into place, things will probably work out.
There's the mildly successful independent heroes, who are her friends, who have survived in no small part due to their ex-military leader, who also happens to be a dad.
There's the mother of her other friend, a Parahuman lawyer and leader of an independent hero team who's more than capable of articulating her opinions of the PRT/Protectorate. In other words, "What's that my (favorite) daughter? A friend of yours is being railroaded into the Wards after having every layer of privacy systematically dismantled by the PRT/Protectorate? To arms!"
And finally, there's the girl with all the answers who legitimately needs Taylor's help and, if worst comes to worst, serves as a perfect example of what could happen if Danny checks out of being a parent.
There's the mildly successful independent heroes, who are her friends, who have survived in no small part due to their ex-military leader, who also happens to be a dad.
There's the mother of her other friend, a Parahuman lawyer and leader of an independent hero team who's more than capable of articulating her opinions of the PRT/Protectorate. In other words, "What's that my (favorite) daughter? A friend of yours is being railroaded into the Wards after having every layer of privacy systematically dismantled by the PRT/Protectorate? To arms!"
And finally, there's the girl with all the answers who legitimately needs Taylor's help and, if worst comes to worst, serves as a perfect example of what could happen if Danny checks out of being a parent.
Yep should be interesting.
Yes parents control their children, it is one of their jobs. And what other options? She doesn't want to join new wave, and being an independent is not an option Danny will accept. Should could say that she will just stop going out but she has lied about that very recently.
You said that you put yourself in Taylor's position, now put yourself in Danny's. What would you do?
Edit: I think Danny is a flawed but good man, that has little in the way of options, and wants to protect his daughter. Danny doesn't want Taylor to join the wards, he doesn't want her even going out. But she will regardless of what he says. She has already proved that. So wards.
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I said that in Taylor's position I'd do what Taylor's not doing way before this came up (probably) but that what I would do didn't really matter because it's not me. I don't know what I would do if I were Danny because I've never really been in the situation Danny's in but I would hope I wouldn't do a lot of things. Not shut down on my daughter in a time of extreme loss. Try to convince her to work with other people and actively ask about the super-heroing she obviously cares about and try harder to convince her to at least work with the Wards or those independents she almost sort of likes or something before trying to law hammer her. I can't be sure I would have the strength of character to do that and I can't be sure it would work but I would hope I would at least try.
Yes but parents forcing their kids to take a certain career path or go to a certain college is frowned upon and they certainly don't have a way to use the law to force it. And if Danny can't accept Taylor being independent even with the possibility of teammates or back-up that's Danny's problem. Heck Taylor didn't originally want to join New Wave but she's at least working with and talking to at least on of them now isn't she? Why? Because no one forced her to but after trying it out she decided she wanted to anyway.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
And when her battered corpse turns up in the morgue after Lung is through with it I'm sure he'll take comfort that she was making her own choices.
And when her waterlogged, pulverized corpse turns up in the morgue after Leviathan is through I'm sure he'll take comfort in the fact that she was under the direction of the Protectorate.
It can be done that way too, Volant.
thefluffyone
Big Ego for Something so Small, eh?
- Location
- Earth
Can she even be burned by fire? Considering she's host to a primordial fire entity made to burn away parts of the universe?
Doesn't mean she can't be smashed by a giant scaly fist, but eh.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
Wards can op'd out of Endbringer fights.
And Sirin can run away from Lung. Your point?
So can independents doesn't mean either of them will. Heck wards and independents both can get killed in the line of duty in general.
Imp'ed - and he/she kind of said it better.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
My point is that she is safer with the Wards. That's established fact in-universe. Wards are far far safer than anyone else out on their own. To Danny Taylor is putting herself in grave danger, and the Wards seems like a way to keep her safe. Any parent would want their child safe over their child being a free and independent soul. If the choice is making Taylor hate him and live and being a fun parent that watches his child die I think he'll choose the former.
I'll agree with the overall tone here, that being in groups is safer. Good thing her last few outings were with others (Hanabi, Rockshow, GG) then, right?
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
And the Wards are safer still. That's not just me saying that. It's a fact, both in Canon and in Firebird that the Wards are the safest capes out there. They're far more supported and they're better equipped than anyone else. Was signing her up behind her back a dick move? Yes, and Taylor has every right to be angry about it, but Danny did it because it was the best way he had that he could feel she was safe.
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And they actively engage less which is great for Danny's selfish goals but not for Taylor's selfish goals.
Okay so that's what their names are. Thanks for that.