Did he even give her the option to stay at home?
Firebird, a Worm AU/Xover?
- Thread starter chibipoe
- Start date
Did he even give her the option to stay at home?
Which is why I hoped that Armsmaster, Miss Militia, Piggot or some PRT flunky would call Danny to ask about those papers. Causing him to hopefully:
- Get angry in their direction.
- Have Taylor find out he's angry with them.
- Give them an opportunity to awkwardly talk about interfering whoever's.
- Have this reduce the distance between them.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
I'd assume if she told him she'd rather not put herself in harms way he'd agree with it.
But did he ever mention the possibility? (If he did I've misjudged him and I'm going to have to apologize about a number of statements I've made.)
This is probably a fair assumption to make and I think it was applied somewhere in story that he was latching onto the wards thing because he knew she wouldn't be able to except the "do nothing" option.
this... seems unlikely.
I've got a bit of a question. I know that Taylor's researching alternatives to the Wards to convince her dad not to make her join. Is it too much of a stretch to think that Danny might be doing the same kinds of research to convince her to join? Or is Danny just going with the information the PRT provided to him?
Would you be able to point me towards the chapter where Danny realizes, speculates or states that she's unable to accept the "stay at home" option. (A quote would be very helpful.) I did not spot anything like this while skimming through his and Taylor's conversations in chapters 2.5 and 2.7.
True. It's just that I can't see anyway that their relationship will improve without some form of outside interference.
Taylor doesn't want to join the Wards because of Armsmaster actions and what they imply. She's using her precognition to check every discussion she can think of with Danny and the only ones that have him reconsider the Wards are ones she aren't willing to have. She is making an effort.
Danny isn't considering her position. (Or even doing a good job of pretending.) He did not even ask what her powers are, how many times she went out as a cape, what happened on those occasions, what she thinks about Armsmaster, the Protectorate, the Wards or the PRT, what Armsmaster said to her after he left her alone or anything else. He's just pushing her to join the Wards.
So what happens when Taylor believes that there's nothing else to try and Danny still hasn't show any interest except in pushing her into the Wards. I imagine things being said by her and done by him that might be forgiven with time and distance, but which can't be forgotten. Add Miss Militia being called in to "escort" her to the PRT headquarters to prevent her from leaving the city (after Danny hands in some signed papers, after Taylor has taken a bag and left the house), a squad on standby for just in case and things could be very bad.
Chibipoe might intend for there to be a serious break between them, he might intend a confrontation with the Protectorate or he might intend something else. (And it will be better than whatever I could guess.) But I can't see their relationship doing anything but crash and burn if things go on the way they are currently.
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Edit
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I have just reread the exchange in chapter 2.5 and have to appologize. Their talk started badly with Taylor still angry about Danny leaving her alone with Armsmaster, but Danny did start asking questions of Taylor. (Whether she was a cape and how and when it happened.) Unfortunately bringing up Danny's meeting with Armsmaster, how they discussed her and his question about how she became a cape (a traumatic memory) angered/agitated/embittered her. (I'm not sure what word works best.) Then the revalation of the Ward papers and Danny responces to her after that killed that conversation. It now seems likely to me that if he did not have the Ward papers out for her to see and did not mention his decision to force her to become a Ward the conversation would likely have become calmer and the questions I mentioned would have been asked. Although I doubt whether either Danny or Taylor would have changed their minds about the Wards.
Chapter 2.7's conversation starts with an apology from Taylor to Danny and it does seem as if he wants to start asking about her.
Unfortunately Taylor wants to start talking about the Wards and the lack of time kills the oportunity for any other questions.
KJYL, thank you for irritating me enough to go and reread them while focussing on Danny. Although I cannot agree that he is in the right my view of him has improved.
Also, please can you let me know where you got that Danny believes she would not accept the "do nothing" option.
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Do me a favor an re read that exchange, that is pretty much nothing but Danny asking questions and Taylor refusing to answer as well as her telling him that he has no control over her. Danny even says that he wants her to be safe and he feels like there is nothing he can do hence protectorate.
Taylor is very much in the wrong here.
They're both in the wrong.
Remember Taylor said to herself in that conversation that she already used precognition to see what would happen if she did try to convince Danny to see her point of view, and nothing she was willing to do worked.
Correction, nothing she was willing to do worked just then. I doubt she kept it up for the next few days...
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
This is the major problem I see with the precog and that is actually very very in character to canon.
Taylor is not reasonable and more importantly she wants to win and win absolutely right now. She doesn't seem to get escaltating punishments and her precog is negatively feeding into that habit it making it seem useless when in fact seven dire losses can wear him down till she gets a win.
It's like with the bullies and the meeting. Absent the crimanal clusterfuck that happened later and made it all irrelevant the ball would have started running shit would have escalated in her favor as things got noticed and the bullies tried to escalate. Shit would have gotten better until she won and sophia snapped and went off the reservation due to agent interjection.
She goes through the conversation trying all these tactics and none gets instant capitulation and so she gives up, after having experienced trying all those things and so seeming far more demorialized than her aparent effort with those courses discarded even when parts of them over time may have changed his mind with time to sleep on it.
Also Taylor's a major telekinetic but it does not seem like she can actually handle keeping her defenses active passively and permanently. Unlike the simurgh she doesn't have a brute rating just a thinker adn shaker rating and standard countermeasures still work on her. She just almost got assasinated after all. Which is really something that Danny should know about. If only through the idea is some thinkers fucking around like that with her he might need to start watching his back more.
She walks into a delayed action trap she's fucked without back up.
Though I was under the impression that Wards can't be signed up against there will minus a prison sentence. Seems like exactly up the Youth gaurds alley.
PRT quest basically made it seems like getting shit done with a ward was net to impossible without literally everyone on board or a severe obvious felony.
You are wrong on this.
chibipoe
May I tell you of the glory that is Catradora?
- Location
- Astoria, Oregon
Think they're referencing the Sophia incident.
This feels like we've spent 99 out of our 100 pages beating each other over the head with clubs because of this Armsmaster/Danny/Piggot vs Taylor debacle. Can I just offer a reasonable conclusion to this subject based off the vast majority of what I've seen people saying without all the extreme beliefs being applied, and then we can all call this over and done?
Taylor genuinely wants to help people and be a hero (which is good). She is developing as a young adult, learning of making her own choices and consequences of those choices (which is also good). She has major trust and communication issues (which is bad). She has very major unresolved issues between herself and her father (which is very bad). If she reflects on things she'll realize that she has viable reasons to not want to join the Wards (Good-ish because those reasons are the corruption/failure of a government agency, and I think we can all agree that is NOT a good thing), and she has personal reasons (not as good, but requires a certain Context* to be bad) too. She, with justifiable reasons, won't communicate these reasons with her father (which is bad because there IS worth in the act of trying).
Verdict on Taylor: She is not the most rational (bad), but she still isn't entirely wrong (good). She's a teenager trying to make something good from a lot of bad, and that is never wrong.
Danny loves Taylor and wants what is best for her (good). As a father he believes it is his responsibility to ensure Taylor's safety (also good). He is incompetent at being a father (bad), and he knows this (good-ish because it's still the silver lining on a bad thing). He fails at communicating with Taylor (bad). He fails to even try to understand her (very bad). He took unilateral action against Taylor (bad) by signing her up for an organization that could and would (meta knowledge says it should, but likely won't. Danny doesn't have meta knowledge.) benefit and protect her (good, and the Context* to make Taylor's personal reasons amount to nose-cutting for face-spiting). As a father it is his right, and the right thing, to ensure her well being and start bridging the parental gulf he allowed them to form (very good). He is passing responsibility to the Wards program (which would normally be considered abdicating his parental responsibilities and thus bad), but only because he knows that they are experts who would (meta knowledge would like to edit in 'should,' but meta isn't allowed in Danny's head) do a better job than him (so Good, Bad, or Ugly Truth?). He poisoned the hell out of his relationship with Taylor by doing it the absolutely wrong way via subverting any agency Taylor had in her own life (Very, Very Bad).
Verdict on Danny: He's a concerned dad who wants what is best for his daughter (if you think that's wrong you deserve to be punched), but he isn't very good at it... at all (which is both bad and sad).
Conclusion: They are both people with reasons and flaws in their beliefs and actions. Objectively, Danny took the entirely wrong course of action in an attempt to walk the entirely right path. Both parties need to talk to a Wards affiliated family counselor, it will both help them put their familial issues straight and assist the two in deciding on Taylor's parahuman career path. Given that this is Worm it isn't likely to happen, but now that we've managed to establish that can we please stop beating the horse? It's being run in circles and just wants to die.
Chibipoe, new subject of discussion please, or a God's Final Say on this so people will quit debating it? Preferably with an enforced policy of needing a damn good point about bringing it back up.
Taylor genuinely wants to help people and be a hero (which is good). She is developing as a young adult, learning of making her own choices and consequences of those choices (which is also good). She has major trust and communication issues (which is bad). She has very major unresolved issues between herself and her father (which is very bad). If she reflects on things she'll realize that she has viable reasons to not want to join the Wards (Good-ish because those reasons are the corruption/failure of a government agency, and I think we can all agree that is NOT a good thing), and she has personal reasons (not as good, but requires a certain Context* to be bad) too. She, with justifiable reasons, won't communicate these reasons with her father (which is bad because there IS worth in the act of trying).
Verdict on Taylor: She is not the most rational (bad), but she still isn't entirely wrong (good). She's a teenager trying to make something good from a lot of bad, and that is never wrong.
Danny loves Taylor and wants what is best for her (good). As a father he believes it is his responsibility to ensure Taylor's safety (also good). He is incompetent at being a father (bad), and he knows this (good-ish because it's still the silver lining on a bad thing). He fails at communicating with Taylor (bad). He fails to even try to understand her (very bad). He took unilateral action against Taylor (bad) by signing her up for an organization that could and would (meta knowledge says it should, but likely won't. Danny doesn't have meta knowledge.) benefit and protect her (good, and the Context* to make Taylor's personal reasons amount to nose-cutting for face-spiting). As a father it is his right, and the right thing, to ensure her well being and start bridging the parental gulf he allowed them to form (very good). He is passing responsibility to the Wards program (which would normally be considered abdicating his parental responsibilities and thus bad), but only because he knows that they are experts who would (meta knowledge would like to edit in 'should,' but meta isn't allowed in Danny's head) do a better job than him (so Good, Bad, or Ugly Truth?). He poisoned the hell out of his relationship with Taylor by doing it the absolutely wrong way via subverting any agency Taylor had in her own life (Very, Very Bad).
Verdict on Danny: He's a concerned dad who wants what is best for his daughter (if you think that's wrong you deserve to be punched), but he isn't very good at it... at all (which is both bad and sad).
Conclusion: They are both people with reasons and flaws in their beliefs and actions. Objectively, Danny took the entirely wrong course of action in an attempt to walk the entirely right path. Both parties need to talk to a Wards affiliated family counselor, it will both help them put their familial issues straight and assist the two in deciding on Taylor's parahuman career path. Given that this is Worm it isn't likely to happen, but now that we've managed to establish that can we please stop beating the horse? It's being run in circles and just wants to die.
Chibipoe, new subject of discussion please, or a God's Final Say on this so people will quit debating it? Preferably with an enforced policy of needing a damn good point about bringing it back up.
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Or you could just set you alerts to author only and only read the story posts? Since you know that and threadmarks are a thing?
Edit: with the aside that I disagree with you final statement , decent post once readable.
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- Location
- Crackship Space!
For everyone's sake, I reformatted your post in the Quote above because it was a freaking AMAZING wall 'o Text that hurt just to look at.
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
Sorry I meant tranqued and kidnapped in broad daylight with only being able to do massive property damage to defend yourself that would not have in fact saved you as you wen unconscious to shuttled off by the second wave or if they'd decided to cut the middle man and poison you fatally. Or follow up the tranq with flashbangs and more long range disorientation.
chibipoe
May I tell you of the glory that is Catradora?
- Location
- Astoria, Oregon
Yeah, going to lay down that this topic has been exhausted quite thoroughly. 2.9 will address a great deal of this. So, move to another discussion.
- Location
- Crackship Space!
NP.Thank you oh great God of Firebird for bringing peace with your irrefutable Word.
Epic wall of text...Would you guys believe it made perfect sense in my head and to my eyes? Thanks for the reformatting.
I could read it but I realized other's might not be so used to reading compressed text so easily, and it only really took me a minute to reformat it.
OverReactionGuy
Verified Sanity
Bets on who sets off the dark phoenix first?
My money is on Amy in a jealous rage.
A close second would be Armsmaster.
My money is on Amy in a jealous rage.
A close second would be Armsmaster.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
I bet Ziz. Because everything is a plot by Ziz, and you can't prove me wrong.
chibipoe
May I tell you of the glory that is Catradora?
- Location
- Astoria, Oregon
I can.
All three of these are wrong.