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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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I would like to point out to everyone that Rihaku consistently "supports" the vote that isn't doing well or a bad choice to follow. I've never seen him do anything but that. Now Embrace Clarity is well in the lead... meaning Rihaku isn't supporting Embrace Clarity because its the vote behind. There must be another reason why he is pushing the voter block to go for it...


Given his previous actions in every other quest I can find and have read up on. I come to the inescapable conclusion that Clarity is a trap option. Well either that or Rihaku has broken character entirely from his previous set character. Which one is more likely? I leave that for the voter base to decide. Remember Embrace Clarity has been literally in the lead from the start, it has never even been threatened by the other votes.
 
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Daniel14541 said:
I would like to point out to everyone that Rihaku consistently "supports" the vote that isn't doing well or a bad choice to follow. I've never seen him do anything but that. Now Embrace Clarity is well in the lead... meaning Rihaku isn't supporting Embrace Clarity because its the vote behind. There must be another reason why he is pushing the voter block to go for it...


Given his previous actions in every other quest I can find and have read up on. I come to the inescapable conclusion that Clarity is a trap option. Well either that or Rihaku has broken character entirely from his previous set character. Which one is more likely? I leave that for the voter base to decide. Remember Embrace Clarity has been literally in the lead from the start, it has never even been threatened by the other votes.
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Or maybe his is clarifying what he finds to be blatant misconceptions about the choice. As arguments that base themselves on information that is simply wrong would be likely inherently inferior in his eyes when he weights them, it could also be seen as supporting Clarity's opposition so that they can make more coherent counter-points.
 
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I used to think so as well, but there have been several times that he has argued against the losing option since then and those actions haven't gone wrong.

A number of times he's seemingly argued for the option he thought was the most interesting, and expressed disappointment when it didn't get voted in.

I don't think it's worth voting based on guesses about Rihaku's reasoning. He's mixed it up quite a bit and it's not always consistent why.

Also, as Thomasfoolery points out, he hasn't really been arguing for Embraced much, simply correcting misconceptions. In fact, the last time he seemingly argued for the winning choice, he explicitly stated he was correcting misconceptions.

Anyway, we've really run out of arguments if we're arguing meta-meta-game about what the GM means. Hopefully we'll get an update soon, because we're just spinning in circles.
 
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As far as I am concerned choosing embracing clarity will only lead to this.

"There is no need to talk about an obvious outcome.
Emiya Shirou will turn his mind to steel and
become a superhero" - Bad End 30

What is the point of continuing this quest if this is the only possible outcome. We become more and more like Odyssial, more of a concept then a man. Who is optimized towards optimization itself. Does that sound like an interesting story to you, where every ic choice is a mechanical calculation towards a more optimized choice 'saving' creation. Which ultimately means we will destroy it. However horrible creation is I don't see anyone (except the deathlords and so on) who are demanding it's utter destruction. Or will you destroy creation using a better world that doesn't exist yet as a justification? Since when did that logic work.

I would personally prefer snap out if, but inevitably due to the voting system it seems we are forced only between embrace and resist. There is only one real choice here.
 
Random Asian Person said:
What is the point of continuing this quest if this is the only possible outcome.
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I presume you have a citation for this.

Like, your middle paragraph, word for word, wouldn't be out of place in arguing against the Essentially As Planned reincarnation, and have just as much evidence.

Obviously we're already fucked.
/sarcasm

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Random Asian Person said:
Or will you destroy creation using a better world that doesn't exist yet as a justification? Since when did that logic work.
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Since it was possible to replace Creation with a perfect world, actually.
 
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Dark Lord Bob said:
I presume you have a citation for this.
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It's not an inevitable conclusion, but it is a logical one. This starts us down the road that leads to maximum utilitarianism; in light of the overwhelming popularity of this choice, it seems we're likely to make similar choices in the future. If he doesn't want that to happen, voting to head the trend off at the pass is perfectly valid.
 
Orm Embar said:
It's not an inevitable conclusion, but it is a logical one. This starts us down the road that leads to maximum utilitarianism; in light of the overwhelming popularity of this choice, it seems we're likely to make similar choices in the future. If he doesn't want that to happen, voting to head the trend off at the pass is perfectly valid.
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I acknowledge that it could happen, I just object to characterising it as the only possibility. Unless I've been hallucinating for a while we have things called votes. And, as I mentioned, if we characterise this choice as leading inevitably to Odyssial then we've already made other choices just as "inevitable" and so the quest is already "doomed" to that.
 
Orm Embar said:
It's not an inevitable conclusion, but it is a logical one. This starts us down the road that leads to maximum utilitarianism; in light of the overwhelming popularity of this choice, it seems we're likely to make similar choices in the future. If he doesn't want that to happen, voting to head the trend off at the pass is perfectly valid.
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i suppose that does make the quest sound a little boring but i have faith that @Rihaku wouldn't let it turn out like that
 
Random Asian Person said:
I would personally prefer snap out if, but inevitably due to the voting system it seems we are forced only between embrace and resist. There is only one real choice here.
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I was the same, but Rihaku said:
Rihaku said:
We are going off the general dichotomy of deciding whether he will oppose or embrace the Limit Break first, then into specifics of how he will, so don't hesitate to vote for your favored option!
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So voting for what you want shouldn't be an issue, and it will be easier to come up with arguments supporting your favored option.
 
Orm Embar said:
It's not an inevitable conclusion, but it is a logical one. This starts us down the road that leads to maximum utilitarianism; in light of the overwhelming popularity of this choice, it seems we're likely to make similar choices in the future. If he doesn't want that to happen, voting to head the trend off at the pass is perfectly valid.
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Obviously, he can use his vote in any way he wants. If, however, he characterizes his choice as the only way to prevent a bad end, it is perfectly justified for us to call him on his bullshit.
 
Wow, this decision is controversial.

@Rihaku say Ulyssian resisted the limit break, governed Luseng well, survived Syn's retribution, won the realm civil war and even married moon at that point-How is he gonna fare against the HMK when he comes calling for a rematch?
 
Actually that's a cool mental image. What better way to reintroduce Ody to Lea than tagging in on her duel with the Handsome Monkey King in an opportune moment.
 
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gigantisrex said:
Wow, this decision is controversial.

@Rihaku say Ulyssian resisted the limit break, governed Luseng well, survived Syn's retribution, won the realm civil war and even married moon at that point-How is he gonna fare against the HMK when he comes calling for a rematch?
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That's not a scenario that's guaranteed to arise. All available evidence indicates that the HMK is being contained by Lealope; personally, I'm of the 'if it isn't broken, don't fix it' persuasion, where our resident Sun Wukong expy is concerned. In any case, the combined power of the Realm entire, backed by the Defense Grid... these are formidable assets. I don't accept that we must blindly pursue personal power at all costs simply because, somewhere in the vastness of Creation, a bigger fish yet exists.
 
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I'm not as philosophical as you guys, nor am I great with words, whether written or oral. But I have something to add (and no, I don't feel like trawling through dozens of pages to read discussions), so here go.

If Odyssial, as @Rihaku said, wants to save Creation by making a better version of it, blah blah blah - oh fuck it! -

Look, if Odyssial is so goddamn focused on the entire forest that he neglected the individual trees and shrub, you can't exactly call him the bastion of justice and shit, right?

And if Odyssial puts terror into his rivals and all, then I won't be surprised that it was one of the many reasons that the Usurpation even happened. After all, Yoda once said that 'Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering, and Suffering...is what leads a person to the Dark Side...'

Since Odyssial is determined to get rid of suffering forever, that sounds kinda unproductive, is it not?
 
kinglugia said:
I'm not as philosophical as you guys, nor am I great with words, whether written or oral. But I have something to add (and no, I don't feel like trawling through dozens of pages to read discussions), so here go.

If Odyssial, as @Rihaku said, wants to save Creation by making a better version of it, blah blah blah - oh fuck it! -

Look, if Odyssial is so goddamn focused on the entire forest that he neglected the individual trees and shrub, you can't exactly call him the bastion of justice and shit, right?

And if Odyssial puts terror into his rivals and all, then I won't be surprised that it was one of the many reasons that the Usurpation even happened. After all, Yoda once said that 'Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering, and Suffering...is what leads a person to the Dark Side...'

Since Odyssial is determined to get rid of suffering forever, that sounds kinda unproductive, is it not?
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Relevant stuff:
Rihaku said:
Odyssial didn't slaughter any innocents or indulge in any of the deprivations of the other Solars until the Usurpation. He didn't give governance and administration his all, but his realm was probably more orderly and less horrific than the majority of Solar realms before the Usurpation. When the Usurpation came, he did fight with his full power, which did cause apocalyptic damage to Creation, but as far as actual depravities inflicted upon the mortals, he was probably one of the best Solars - not because he was uber compassionate, but because he was a competent ruler and mostly kept to himself.

Mm, I wouldn't downplay his campaigns against the Dooms as mere "mitigation." He's a Dawn, they kill stuff, and destroying enemies was his primary talent. He annihilated 99.5% of the Dooms facing Creation; only in this Age of Sorrows can the remaining 50 (buttressed by those Dooms that spawned in the meantime) mount a credible assault (aside from the Balorin Crusade / Great Contagion).

Of course, he does have many facets that people would consider monstrous - basically enslaving gods that slacked on their jobs, assassinating his fellow Exalts, performing experiments on the fabric of reality, etc. I just don't want you guys thinking he went around butchering millions of random civs for no reason. You guys chose Odyssial's actions in the First Age, and while you didn't choose to make him an incredible leader, neither did you choose to make him someone who would slaughter his own people. They stood for him when the Usurpation came and died on the field of battle at his side, including his Dragon-Blood lieutenants.
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Rihaku said:
It was the Usurpation, an ambush sprung by overwhelming initial force from the Sids and DBs. The Incarnae intervened later, when the collateral damage was getting apocalyptic, but the Incarnae basically condoned the Usurpation when the Maidens didn't tell the Sids yes or no (despite it being clear treason).
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Rihaku said:
In any case, he did not perform any "sacrifice millions" actions, so they did not gang up on him for that reason. The Lathe of Heaven is not a "sacrifice millions action," it's a "we don't trust you to be the omnipotent dictator of the future"* action. But they didn't gang up on him for that; the Usurpation happened for the normal reason, not because of Odyssial alone.

My "which would you pick, A or B" question was a (rhetorical) question to the PLAYERS about which one you guys would literally pick, because it is easy to criticize but different to actually decide. That is eminently obvious in the text of the post; only rampant cherry-picking or obvious bias would miss that.

*An entirely reasonable distrust, even if Odyssial had been likeable, and he mostly wasn't.
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As far as reasons to stay in Luseng goes - well, first off, does everyone want to stay in Luseng? We've never actually had a vote on it. But as far as the reasons go, if you're just saying it's to protect Luseng - well, The Lily can protect Luseng, and while Uncle Pan isn't capable of running the city near as well as you would (with the Crown), things probably would get worse only slowly since he is both active and powerful as a City Father. Assuming Ragmar doesn't attack and The Lily can be trusted, etc. But there are assets there, formidable ones.

Of course, a powered-up Lily would also be a great help against the Handsome Monkey King if you're going after him.
 
Well, my main motivations for staying in Luseng are getting Sorcery and getting to stay around with Nilul and Moon, regardless of the fact that we'd have reduced time with them (should Embrace win).

If those worries were assuaged I'd be fine with leaving, as I'm not that attached to Luseng (which isn't to say I'm not attached at all, but it's just not that much).

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Well, I also like being able to brag about being a great king.
 
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I don't particularly prefer staying in Luseng. I do want to eliminate threats like Ragmar/Fae/Gardener before we leave though. Basically the focus should be about destroying threats not administration.
 
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For those of you who say that chosing Embrace Clarity doesn't mean accepting Great Curse, think again.
Choosingbyhis mean we will follow Odyssial patch of pursuing more and more personal power that lead to modification of Curse and discourage any action that would lead to lessening of said power if only by making competing options more shiny in comparison.
Curse make us stroger, this can mot be contested, we also know that only patch to lessen Exaltation is for it's wielder to accept auch lessening.
So will you sacrifice some of our power contain Odyssial's insanity or will you sacrifice Ulyssian humanity in name of power and utility.
 
Random Asian Person said:
Does that sound like an interesting story to you, where every ic choice is a mechanical calculation towards a more optimized choice 'saving' creation.
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Yes, actually. This kind of story does appeal to me. A story about a person using everything they have and know to effectively pursue their goals is an interesting one, especially when we get to see what goes on in their head: how they make their calculation, consider plans, and deal with the unexpected.
This appeals to me more than watching social interaction.
 
BSRK Aditya said:
I don't particularly prefer staying in Luseng. I do want to eliminate threats like Ragmar/Fae/Gardener before we leave though.
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It would take several days, if not weeks of pure traveling just to reach their strongholds, and then you'd have to hunt down all their members, assuming you even win.... that could potentially take ages and turn into a drawn-out, bloody quagmire, unless you want to travel with the Legion. But traveling with the Legion would take about 4x longer.

Of course, if you had Sorcery, you personally would be able to move faster, though the guerilla warfare issue is still a real one unless you get Heaven Sword Flash to work out to long / extreme range. But you guys don't have Four-Bladed Heavenly Emperor Stance.
 
Rihaku said:
It would take several days, if not weeks of pure traveling just to reach their strongholds, and then you'd have to hunt down all their members, assuming you even win.... that could potentially take ages and turn into a drawn-out, bloody quagmire, unless you want to travel with the Legion. But traveling with the Legion would take about 4x longer.

Of course, if you had Sorcery, you personally would be able to move faster, though the guerilla warfare issue is still a real one unless you get Heaven Sword Flash to work out to long / extreme range. But you guys don't have Four-Bladed Heavenly Emperor Stance.
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Then we know what to do with all that XP!:lol

But seriously, if it is too difficult, I am okay with leaving Lily behind to protect the city for us. I would prefer it if we keep her with us though.
 
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