[Exalted, ?] Most High

What is this "Blood of the Shogun" and why is it important?
A long while back, someone undertook a Sorcerous project to create a bloodline of Terrestrial Exalts with the ability to match Solars in power and longevity. They partially succeeded, but the resulting Exalts were almost totally sterile, which is why Creation isn't overrun with them. Zao and Moon are both Shoguns.
 
Solar dice caps, celestial-grade longevity, and general boosts to Dragon Blooded abilities that put them closer to what a Celestial can be at, with the cost of "Zao has lived for well over a thousand years. He has had one child". Their blood doesn't pass down very easily.
So basically it's a breeding program to create knock-off Celestial Exalts?
 
Oh, of course, we cannot forget the central and tragic flaw of Odyssial: his hubris. We are not talking about the cliche of the smooth operator that is almost as good as he thinks he is.

Odyssial was as good as he thought he was. And that was arguably much, much worse than a thousand smooth operators.
 
But... he never sacrificed millions of innocents, unless you mean the incidental damage Creation took when he was fighting at full strength against the Usurpation which was already happening. That was the point of my earlier post.
1. Neither of us said the word innocent in the posts in question
2. What did heartless 10 signify then? We got extra picks for raising heartlessness, the obvious method for this to work is that we simply did not spare the time to save people, instead devoting more time to our great works.
3. Pearl conversion did mention massive amounts of mortals killed via our actions.
4. The whole thing was a metaphor you set up "do you save billions at the cost of millions" you asked. Then I extended the metaphor. Then you counter with "no millions were sacrificed". If you are going to be that literal about it then you undermined your own metaphor from your previous post
 
I noticed a some overlap between the embrace faction and the sorcery faction... isn't that a contradiction? if we leave we are not going to have the resources of a satrapy to make sorcerous works, we are not going to have mortal armies to turn into a horde of mortal sorcerers.
Rihaku, has explicitly stated that staying behind and creating a Time Dilation field to train in Luseng could be more useful than searching for Lea if we could add a few more write-in incentives.

I propose that we set up a Time Dilation Field in Luseng (thus incentivising staying there by investing a month of time in building its personal usefulness up) and try and work towards shifting the running of Luseng to Nilul (perhaps with Moon as a figurehead should we eventually leave) while we focus on retrieving our memories, perhaps letting our autonomous combat skill be used to fend off any martial incursions that wouldn't demand our full attention.

With relatively little effort we could seek out the Great Library captured by the Beastmen, and secure that knowledge-base as a Sorcerous and Prophetic resource.

What is this "Blood of the Shogun" and why is it important?
It allows DBs to approach Celestial-level, both in lifespan and power.

Inspired by this, I'm just going to reiterate the actual consequences of Embrace:
Let's clarify what Embracing the Clarity will do -
*Odyssial will not try to end this Limit Break prematurely.
*Nor does he have the ability to maintain permanent Limit Break.
*He will not become an emotionless robot outside of Limit Break, though he will emerge with a greatly changed understanding of his priorities.
*While previously he was somewhat unsure and irresolute, he now will focus on the fastest path to Creation-saving power: recovering his memories and unlocking the sane and useful Elder Exalts, like Lea.
*As Ulyssian he will still experience the full range of human emotions, as suboptimal normal, and will have to deal with how those interact and conflict with his new priorities. It should be fun!
*Future decision points will use an incentive gradient that reflects his re-prioritization of Becoming Stronger.
 
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Yes, exactly that!
Look, I LIKE moon (although I am not fawning over her like some people do), but have you seen our votes about her so far? a lot of players want her dead
The small subsection of people who actively dislike her have no traction in Ulyssian's consciousness; he isn't going to take actions with the intended purpose of hurting Moon. If she takes a more central role, she is both useful and we have a chance of converting some of the dissenters. Sidelining her to protect her does Moon a disservice.
 
considering he has been at it for 1000 years, and we don't know what her mother's breeding is, she might not be
IIRC Moon's mother was a random chick from a Far North village who died in the frozen wastes, which does somewhat imply that she didn't have high breeding, as breeding decreases in the Threshold and I wouldn't expect a High-Breeding DB to die quietly.
 
1. Neither of us said the word innocent in the posts in question

...Okay? So, what, you consider enemy combatants to be "sacrifices?" Odyssial did kill quintiillions of daevas, but that was kinda the point of the Exalted Host. He also killed billions of Creation's enemies, because they were... attacking Creation. *shrug*

2. What did heartless 10 signify then? We got extra picks for raising heartlessness, the obvious method for this to work is that we simply did not spare the time to save people, instead devoting more time to our great works.

This was addressed in literally the post you referenced. And, of course, the many other references to his H10 actions I have cited in many, many previous posts.

Of course, he does have many facets that people would consider monstrous - basically enslaving gods that slacked on their jobs, assassinating his fellow Exalts, performing experiments on the fabric of reality, etc.

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3. Pearl conversion did mention massive amounts of mortals killed via our actions.

Yes, during the Usurpation.

4. The whole thing was a metaphor you set up "do you save billions at the cost of millions" you asked. Then I extended the metaphor. Then you counter with "no millions were sacrificed". If you are going to be that literal about it then you undermined your own metaphor from your previous post

You literally said "people saw him sacrifice millions and ganged up on him as evil, he sacrificed millions for nothing." That is not a hypothetical metaphor. Who's undermining whose self?

The problem is that ody did not actually save billions. because people saw him sacrifice millions and ganged up on him as "evil", he sacrificed millions for nothing, he failed.

In any case, he did not perform any "sacrifice millions" actions, so they did not gang up on him for that reason. The Lathe of Heaven is not a "sacrifice millions action," it's a "we don't trust you to be the omnipotent dictator of the future"* action. But they didn't gang up on him for that; the Usurpation happened for the normal reason, not because of Odyssial alone.

My "which would you pick, A or B" question was a (rhetorical) question to the PLAYERS about which one you guys would literally pick, because it is easy to criticize but different to actually decide. That is eminently obvious in the text of the post; only rampant cherry-picking or obvious bias would miss that.

*An entirely reasonable distrust, even if Odyssial had been likeable, and he mostly wasn't.
 
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That's cute, and fucking hilarious; the Fairest was listened to because she was wise beyond her years and was a really powerful Sid.
To be slightly more cynical, the Fairest was listened to because the Maidens of Destiny painstakingly engineered and cultivated her to appeal to Odyssial in an attempt to tame him. I doubt Odyssial was unaware of this yet the result was so perfect that they succeeded regardless.

Ultimately, the matter of why he listened to her is irrelevant, only the fact that he did mattered. Such a relationship is something that could possibly be replicated here, at least in part.
 
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Hm... it looks like we may need a sub-decision point on whether to stay in Luseng, regardless of which option wins. Or even if a crappy compromise vote wins.

To be slightly more cynical, the Fairest was listened to because the Maidens of Destiny painstakingly engineered and cultivated her to appeal to Odyssial in an attempt to tame him. I doubt Odyssial was unaware of this yet the result was so perfect that they succeeded regardless.

An interesting hypothesis!
 
Embracing Clarity is just going to be doubling down on Odyssial's flaws. This decision is our path forward: embrace Odyssial cherry pick or reject it all. Ulyssian lived a similar life pre-Second Breath, but there were differences that matter. Odyssial was ground down by the cruel Primordials. Ulyssian had Moon, Zhao, Mountain Hero and others to help pick him up. Fundamentally, I think that Ulyssian is too optimistic to be Odyssial.

What if Odyssial wins? Let's say he reforges Creation, will he ever be satisfied? Perfection is a pretty damn far way away for someone who is scarred, suboptimal and hypocritical. Rihaku listed his flaws; things that keep him back from perfection. How many experiments, how many rewrites of reality is it going to take before he's satisfied?

Ulyssian knows that he can stop. He can soften and can put other things ahead of his goal and allow things to simply be. He can be convinced that experimenting on reality can stop and that things are good.

You have been reading Rihaku's posts right? The souls of everyone would have been transported into the new Creation Odyssial was making.

Because he cares for everyone in it and wants them to move to his new Creation? Seriously he isn't trying to kill everyone and just wants to make their lives better.

That's the problem: he cares about everyone, not someone. If people (other than his personal friends) were replaced then he wouldn't notice or care. Mortals are numbers to be crunched to find an optimal solution: he's a calculator. That's great in some ways but is bad in a leader. Being a strict number cruncher does not make you allies.

The long term effects of Odyssial's actions would have prevented the Wracking from happen, keep in mind that he had been dead for centuries. We decided not to go for the option because we preferred others and didn't think that it would be good for Ulyssian. The Lathe of Heaven on the other hand was the culmination of an Age of work by Odyssial and an attempt to make everything better, created over millenia by the greatest-god king with perfect clarity and terrifyingly rational thought going into it's work.

Odyssial's greatest flaw was his obsession. He never backs down. Remember all the stuff that Ulyssian got up to as a mortal trying to tie with dragonbloods? Extend that over an age and set the stakes higher than ever. Of his two real flaws (obsession and asociality) this is the central product of the first.

Rihaku acknowledged that his most fatal flaw was hubris. Here he is, rewriting reality in search of perfection. Odyssial will never be able to stop and call his works complete. For someone so near perfection and yet so far, the gulf would be unbearable.

Because we have friends here and are personally attached to Luseng? Seriously we know that tapping Odyssial's memories is going to take a while and by word of Rihaku Luseng can potentially offer benefits which offset not immediately going for Lea. I don't understand why you think that a vote for Clarity means immediately running like a bat out of hell. One of the main conflicts of this choice was always going to be reconciling our emotions with our new perspective.

Did you read what Rihaku posted? Staying in Luseng only works if we went for Solar Circle Sorcery and picked up Time Dilation. We didn't. The option to stay exists only if we go against a defining and major principle and risk another limit break. Even then, it was only arguble if Time Dilation was better than seeking Lea.

This entire choice is about our path to power forwards. Embrace: become Odyssial mrk 2. Resist: take advantage of Odyssial but don't peg yourself to it. Reject Ambition: throw away Odyssial-that-was-Ulyssian.

And they are all that Odyssial wishes to save, the citizens of his new reality and the ones he wishes to protect. It's just that he takes this to a monstrous extent, please don't strawman and say that if we choose Clarity we will immediately think of mortals as dirt.

No, it's worse than thinking mortals are dirt. Odyssial doesn't care about them at all; his realm was better because of profound indifference. Mortals are almost literally extras in his mind. Odyssial isn't terrifying because he's an amoral or evil bastard but because of his utility. He's a calculator, one with power but he's cut out his heart and operates solely on 'best or least bad options'.

People have compared him to Kiritsugu and they're half right. Unless someone worms his way into his heart, they're interchangeable. Odyssial is just the great machine that grinds down mortals, dragonbloods, and Exalts and tries to leave something better behind. A machine is not interesting to play as.

Because Ulyssian cares about them holy shit why have you been going on like this choice can suddenly turn him into a heartless monster. We care about them and want to be with them for all that we recognize that it is horribly inefficient.

Compared to his defining tie of 'I must grow stronger' and major principle of 'Loves Training', not really. We'd be accumulating limit every scene; this entire decision is about whether we embrace Odyssial's path going forward or will accept suboptimal choices. We've missed out since we lack Solar Circle Sorcery.
 
So from the perspective of a well informed mortal living in the first age Odyssials territory was one of the best places to live even if they would never hope to be in the same room as him because he solves problems in horrifying if not fatal ways and if he is near you, you are likely a problem?

Hm... it looks like we may need a sub-decision point on whether to stay in Luseng, regardless of which option wins. Or even if a crappy compromise vote wins.
Please don't do a crappy compromise vote. Both options work better on their own if in radially different manners.
 
...Okay? So, what, you consider enemy combatants to be "sacrifices?"
Nobody that followed odyssials ever died? He never ever ever engaged in a sacrifice play where he allowed a small group of his followers to die to save a larger group or to achieve a goal? He never ever left a village to be ravaged to save a larger city because he couldn't be in both places at once?
Also, you explicitly stated I am correct in:
Of course, that's not to say he wouldn't kill the few to save the many, but that would apply only to scenarios where there was literally no other choice

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This was addressed in literally the post you referenced. And, of course, the many other references to his H10 actions I have cited in many, many previous posts.
Of course, he does have many facets that people would consider monstrous - basically enslaving gods that slacked on their jobs, assassinating his fellow Exalts, performing experiments on the fabric of reality, etc.
And nobody ever died from those?

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You literally said "people saw him sacrifice millions and ganged up on him as evil, he sacrificed millions for nothing."
No, YOU literally said it, right here
Of course, that's not to say he wouldn't kill the few to save the many, but that would apply only to scenarios where there was literally no other choice, which pop up fairly rarely - Oramus' hypotheticals and stuff like that, not really in the practical course of rule. Most of the time he could just find a way around it. And, when you get down to it, if there is literally no other option, then the outcome is

A) billions of people die
B) millions of people die
Right there you literally said he killed the few to save the many, and that the outcome is "billions of people die" or "millions of people die".
And then you claimed this never happened (aka this was a metaphor for his choices rather than the exact scenario) right here:
But... he never sacrificed millions of innocents

PS. did every single person that was against ody in the usurpation join up at the same time? or did some people sit it out at first but then joined up against ody?
 
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No, YOU literally said it, right here

Right there you literally said he killed the few to save the many, and that the outcome is "billions of people die" or "millions of people die".
And then you claimed this never happened (aka this was a metaphor for his choices rather than the exact scenario) right here:
The choice between A and B was presented as a hypothetical, for the readers to consider; it's not indicative of Odyssial's actual actions.
 
Remember that we only get decision points if Uly feels conflicted about something. So trying to mitigate the effects of embrace would not be very simple, as we would only really affect certain decisions. Others would just be automatically made.
 
Embracing Clarity is just going to be doubling down on Odyssial's flaws. This decision is our path forward: embrace Odyssial cherry pick or reject it all.
Well, I'd certainly like to reject altruism and just go around being a murderhobo, but I don't think the voterbase wants that, so I suppose we'll have to settle for wanting to reduce suffering like Odyssial did.

What if Odyssial wins? Let's say he reforges Creation, will he ever be satisfied?
Odyssial was as good as he thought he was.
He thought he could make a perfect world.

Ulyssian knows that he can stop. He can soften and can put other things ahead of his goal and allow things to simply be. He can be convinced that experimenting on reality can stop and that things are good.
Major Principle - Be suspicious of contentment
Really?


Odyssial's greatest flaw was his obsession. He never backs down. Remember all the stuff that Ulyssian got up to as a mortal trying to tie with dragonbloods? Extend that over an age and set the stakes higher than ever. Of his two real flaws (obsession and asociality) this is the central product of the first.
This isn't a flaw from my perspective; it's the reason I always had nostalgia for Uly as Rihaku's best protagonist.

Rihaku acknowledged that his most fatal flaw was hubris. Here he is, rewriting reality in search of perfection. Odyssial will never be able to stop and call his works complete. For someone so near perfection and yet so far, the gulf would be unbearable.
Do you have evidence that he couldn't create a perfect (for human values) world? Because so far as I can see the opposite is true.

Did you read what Rihaku posted? Staying in Luseng only works if we went for Solar Circle Sorcery and picked up Time Dilation. We didn't. The option to stay exists only if we go against a defining and major principle and risk another limit break. Even then, it was only arguble if Time Dilation was better than seeking Lea.
Hm... it looks like we may need a sub-decision point on whether to stay in Luseng, regardless of which option wins.
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No, it's worse than thinking mortals are dirt. Odyssial doesn't care about them at all;
Well, except for making mortals' live not inherently shit being his Ultimate goal.

People have compared him to Kiritsugu and they're half right. Unless someone worms his way into his heart, they're interchangeable. Odyssial is just the great machine that grinds down mortals, dragonbloods, and Exalts and tries to leave something better behind. A machine is not interesting to play as.
It's a good thing that we will explicitly not be a machine outside of Limit Break, then, isn't it?

Compared to his defining tie of 'I must grow stronger' and major principle of 'Loves Training', not really. We'd be accumulating limit every scene; this entire decision is about whether we embrace Odyssial's path going forward or will accept suboptimal choices. We've missed out since we lack Solar Circle Sorcery.
We already have a Defining Tie of "I must grow stronger". Did we gain Limit from reading to Moon?
 
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The choice between A and B was presented as a hypothetical
in which case see
4. The whole thing was a metaphor you set up "do you save billions at the cost of millions" you asked. Then I extended the metaphor. Then you counter with "no millions were sacrificed". If you are going to be that literal about it then you undermined your own metaphor from your previous post

Either it was hypothetical, or it was literal. I crafted a reply that works equally well for both scenarios without having to ask for clarification on which he meant. If he was being hypothetical i was extending the metaphor, if he was being literal then it literally happened.
I should have made that clearer by placing an if in there as per:
4. if The whole thing was a metaphor you set up "do you save billions at the cost of millions" you asked. Then I extended the metaphor. Then you counter with "no millions were sacrificed". If you are going to be that literal about it then you undermined your own metaphor from your previous post
fix in red
 
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