[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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- exalted (white wolf)
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- USA
Citation needed.
The slippery slope is a well documented and proven fact which some people have argued against for a variety of reasons, mostly political. It is a real shame that instead of replying to fools who misapply it by telling them "this is not a case that will result in a slippery slope because <facts/reasons/logic>" they have instead sought to declare the very concept of slippery slope itself a fallacy.
And even among those who actually claim that there exists a fallacy called "the slippery slope fallacy" the definition most commonly used is:
People are clearly explaining why and how this choice will lead to the bad result. Clearly failing the "without any argument" part. They might be wrong, they might be right, but they are definitely not commiting a slippery slope so long as they are actually justifying it (and you can feel free to attack said justifications and prove them wrong if you can)
Besides that, there is the claim that they are arguing that the end result in question is the inevitable result of choosing to take that first step. I haven't seen anyone make such a strong statement, instead people are arguing that it will require significant effort to change course once we do it.
Also, the biggest mistake people are doing is calling this a first step, it is not a first step that causes an avalanche, it is the willful declaration to decide on an end goal.
Hey, Rihaku, would training Ambition Evocations (as Ody had mastered it) or learning Sorcery (you described it as reawakening Odyssial's talent for willing reality into submission) count as methods towards remembering Odyssial's life?
We're supposed to learn from the mistakes of the past and what that incident taught us is that sometimes getting stronger isn't worth it if it means hurting or giving up the things and people you care about.
Let's not continue down the path that led us to that decision. Oh sure people claim we won't give everything up for power but considering how we've been voting the last few rounds, the desire to get stronger to combat all the shit coming our way, Rihaku's tendency to never make votes easy, the possibility of Uly reorganizing his priorities to get stronger as fast as possible and getting incentives to pick options that increase his strength I'm not so sure.
And now I have to do a fan work to counter meian's.
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Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Resist the Clarity
No. of votes: 27
DOOMPOTATO, LastChronicler, Emerald Oracle, MrGazzer, arrepio, pinkturnip, CharlBaal, Anasurimbor, Kurowari, SirLagginton, cyberswordsmen, mrttao, Alectai, Daniel14541, SometimesMaybe, Mishco, LordOfMurder, Yun, Cerillian, Dream Logic, Walkin' Man, Elero, Random Asian Person, wingstrike96, LastChronicler, Emerald Oracle, MrGazzer, arrepio, pinkturnip, CharlBaal, Anasurimbor, Kurowari, SirLagginton, cyberswordsmen, mrttao, Alectai, Daniel14541, SometimesMaybe, Mishco, LordOfMurder, Yun, Cerillian, Dream Logic, Walkin' Man, Elero, Random Asian Person, wingstrike96, aja318, Diller, veekie
[X] Embrace the Clarity
No. of votes: 44
TheOtherSandman, CrawlingChaos74, vel10, Savonarola, CrossyCross, Valor, Reckless_Sun, gigantisrex, dragon, Ridiculously Average Guy, Jouaint, Grimmair, Faux, VanusDraco, Emdeman, me.me.here, 1986ctcel, sithmor, Thomasfoolery, EnderofWorlds, drasky, useofstrike32, afterthought53, meianmaru, Vikerage, BSRK Aditya, Khaos, WorldSlayer, inventive alias, skaro, Aloysius, Usernames, Vanguard_D, Mannan, Robotninja, trekbook, Fumbles, CrawlingChaos74, vel10, Savonarola, CrossyCross, Valor, Reckless_Sun, gigantisrex, dragon, Ridiculously Average Guy, Jouaint, Grimmair, Faux, VanusDraco, Emdeman, me.me.here, 1986ctcel, sithmor, Thomasfoolery, EnderofWorlds, drasky, useofstrike32, meianmaru, Vikerage, BSRK Aditya, Khaos, WorldSlayer, inventive alias, skaro, Aloysius, Usernames, Vanguard_D, Mannan, Robotninja, trekbook, Fumbles, Gerrou, afterthought53, Da Boyz, Legion1771, Vanathor, Legion1771, Vanathor, AZATHOTHoth, Dark Lord Bob, longmasher, Dark Lord Bob, longmasher
[X] Snap Out of It
No. of votes: 9
Serous, Eliar, Orm Embar, Vitaris, Deadly Snark, Redium, Wing101, Jorlem, Eliar, Orm Embar, Vitaris, Deadly Snark, Redium, Wing101, Jorlem, Neptune
##### 3.21
[X] Resist the Clarity
No. of votes: 27
DOOMPOTATO, LastChronicler, Emerald Oracle, MrGazzer, arrepio, pinkturnip, CharlBaal, Anasurimbor, Kurowari, SirLagginton, cyberswordsmen, mrttao, Alectai, Daniel14541, SometimesMaybe, Mishco, LordOfMurder, Yun, Cerillian, Dream Logic, Walkin' Man, Elero, Random Asian Person, wingstrike96, LastChronicler, Emerald Oracle, MrGazzer, arrepio, pinkturnip, CharlBaal, Anasurimbor, Kurowari, SirLagginton, cyberswordsmen, mrttao, Alectai, Daniel14541, SometimesMaybe, Mishco, LordOfMurder, Yun, Cerillian, Dream Logic, Walkin' Man, Elero, Random Asian Person, wingstrike96, aja318, Diller, veekie
[X] Embrace the Clarity
No. of votes: 44
TheOtherSandman, CrawlingChaos74, vel10, Savonarola, CrossyCross, Valor, Reckless_Sun, gigantisrex, dragon, Ridiculously Average Guy, Jouaint, Grimmair, Faux, VanusDraco, Emdeman, me.me.here, 1986ctcel, sithmor, Thomasfoolery, EnderofWorlds, drasky, useofstrike32, afterthought53, meianmaru, Vikerage, BSRK Aditya, Khaos, WorldSlayer, inventive alias, skaro, Aloysius, Usernames, Vanguard_D, Mannan, Robotninja, trekbook, Fumbles, CrawlingChaos74, vel10, Savonarola, CrossyCross, Valor, Reckless_Sun, gigantisrex, dragon, Ridiculously Average Guy, Jouaint, Grimmair, Faux, VanusDraco, Emdeman, me.me.here, 1986ctcel, sithmor, Thomasfoolery, EnderofWorlds, drasky, useofstrike32, meianmaru, Vikerage, BSRK Aditya, Khaos, WorldSlayer, inventive alias, skaro, Aloysius, Usernames, Vanguard_D, Mannan, Robotninja, trekbook, Fumbles, Gerrou, afterthought53, Da Boyz, Legion1771, Vanathor, Legion1771, Vanathor, AZATHOTHoth, Dark Lord Bob, longmasher, Dark Lord Bob, longmasher
[X] Snap Out of It
No. of votes: 9
Serous, Eliar, Orm Embar, Vitaris, Deadly Snark, Redium, Wing101, Jorlem, Eliar, Orm Embar, Vitaris, Deadly Snark, Redium, Wing101, Jorlem, Neptune
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Rihaku
The Internet
You won't know whether any method is successful unless you try it.
The easy votes are just what Uly already does! You only vote when there's the chance he would be conflicted.
Which is, like, the definition of slippery? Haven't seen much explanation behind that argument actually.
I fail to see the problem when the end goal is something as neutral as to gain power and unlock memories. We're not voting to execute plan Lathe of Heaven Mk2. Also, your avalanche argument is another name for the same slippery slope. What are then your arguments for declaration of a goal causing the avalanche?
- Location
- USA
No it isn't, I literally posted the definition and it literally says "inevitable". Hard to change course =! inevitable.
Furthermore the definition is very explicit that you must not provide any explanation or justification as to WHY doing A leads to B. By providing explanation, even a wrong explanation, you are automatically not engaging in a slippery slope as per the definition. Instead you might be engaging in any number of other fallacies or errors (specifically, whatever error is making your justification wrong). The error lies in the specific false argument you have placed in the middle and that is what you should seek to disprove rather then trying to dismiss the other side with a "you made a slippery slope argument"
Unlocking memories is not in any way shape or form "neutral".
This is explicitly setting your end goal to vastly increase the influence of odyssial's personality on the uly-ody gestalt.
- Location
- USA
My goal is to protect the people of Creation. Each vote I have voted for the option that I believed would best do that. Making friends along the way (Moon, Nilul, etc) is nice, but not as important as saving people's lives.
I don't know how to save the people of creation. Ulyssian/Oddysial can come up with and judge this much better than I can. So I'll let the more informed being help us save lives.
I don't know how to save the people of creation. Ulyssian/Oddysial can come up with and judge this much better than I can. So I'll let the more informed being help us save lives.
- Location
- USA
- Location
- USA
Supposedly ody "always finds a way"
except he didn't, he FAILED. He died, his works fell, his plans for "I will do this stuff when powerful enough" are broken and incomplete. How many people have waited outside of reality and time for him to retrieve them when powerful enough? only to be lost forever with his death?
we are now trying to redo that but without thousands of years of buildup of power.
I would argue that "finding a way" would be:
1. you can't find a way to achieve everything at once, you must choose to prioritize some goals over others. So no more deciding to "finding a way" (rather then merely "trying really hard so long as it doesn't undermine my core goals") that actively detracts us from our end goal (infinite singularity husk... incidentally, so many people are saying our goal is to save creation when our goal is actually to destroy it; food for thought.)
2. good PR is important. being slightly diminished in various tasks and not getting the absolute best result is worth not making too many powerful enemies and worth it to not appear is a cruel and evil tyrant. Because there are a ton of other power players out there and if we are distasteful enough they will gang bang us just like they did ody at his prime. Yes, many innocents will die because we weren't hardcore enough to save them... but think how many fell since the usurpation because we didn't have good enough PR to avoid that?
speaking of the infinite singularity husk, frankly I think actually the whole "its easier to destroy and rebuild than it is to modify the existing" is grossly underestimating the strength of the resistance we would face, ody at his prime got killed because of it.
Also, rather than destroy creation and then rebuild, we should first build our "creation 2.0", then relocate everyone from creation 1.0 to v2.0, then destroy it. it is a much better sale.
except he didn't, he FAILED. He died, his works fell, his plans for "I will do this stuff when powerful enough" are broken and incomplete. How many people have waited outside of reality and time for him to retrieve them when powerful enough? only to be lost forever with his death?
we are now trying to redo that but without thousands of years of buildup of power.
I would argue that "finding a way" would be:
1. you can't find a way to achieve everything at once, you must choose to prioritize some goals over others. So no more deciding to "finding a way" (rather then merely "trying really hard so long as it doesn't undermine my core goals") that actively detracts us from our end goal (infinite singularity husk... incidentally, so many people are saying our goal is to save creation when our goal is actually to destroy it; food for thought.)
2. good PR is important. being slightly diminished in various tasks and not getting the absolute best result is worth not making too many powerful enemies and worth it to not appear is a cruel and evil tyrant. Because there are a ton of other power players out there and if we are distasteful enough they will gang bang us just like they did ody at his prime. Yes, many innocents will die because we weren't hardcore enough to save them... but think how many fell since the usurpation because we didn't have good enough PR to avoid that?
speaking of the infinite singularity husk, frankly I think actually the whole "its easier to destroy and rebuild than it is to modify the existing" is grossly underestimating the strength of the resistance we would face, ody at his prime got killed because of it.
Also, rather than destroy creation and then rebuild, we should first build our "creation 2.0", then relocate everyone from creation 1.0 to v2.0, then destroy it. it is a much better sale.
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Mardukth thing was the best part of a quest that has gone stale. What messed it up was people insisting to moon after Moon.
An interesting statement, from someone who didn't even participate in Sword; almost as if you're just trolling me, but surely you're above such juvenile tactics. In any case, you have your opinion, and I have mine. I refuse to accept that caring for our friends is a bad thing.
[X] Resist the Clarity
We've already seen the road that Odyssial follows and where it ends up. Doing the exact same thing and expecting things to be different is insanity.
Anys knows we are Odyssial and we're going to prove her every fear right? Honestly, I think Odyssial is the absolute worst of the Solars. People go on and on about the Solar's deprivations during the First Age where mortal's lives were worth less than dirt. Why do we want to go back there? If Odyssial embraces the Great Curse then suddenly all those little people don't matter, only Odyssial's ambition. Sure, you can tell yourself that it's going to be better but that's what they all say. It's easy to slaughter millions today and tomorrow for the uncounted billions in the future. And the best part? That never goes away. Exponential grow always means that sacrificing people for the unborn future is a good trade. It never ends. The ends justify the means.
And guess what? Odyssial could've avoided the Wracking and Usurpation had he been a bit less focused on those future unborn.
Rihaku's already said that we'd be abandoning our Satrapy almost immediately in order to try and regain more memories and secure Odyssial's caches. The Satrapy just isn't efficient. Doing anything or associating with anyone outside of a few Elder Exalts is inefficient. Just like the great Solars of old we care nothing for mortals and are certain that we're going to end up making things better. Why is Odyssial different when he's embraced the madness that drove on all the others?
The last time Odyssial grew into his power he nearly cracked Creation open like an egg. Why will that be different this time? The Celestial Incarnae know how far Odyssial's ambition goes so they are going to intervene far, far sooner. Especially when Ayns shows that we reincarnated and learned nothing from it. In the last quest, Lyteck nearly shit himself just from our presence, the Incarnae are never going to leave us be when they see us on the same path.
The double EXP is obviously the first step along the path of a slippery slope. It's an outright mechanic to encourage us along that path!
Odyssial had his chance. He was supposedly nigh omnipotent and even cast down the Unconqured Sun. And he still failed. He didn't prevent the Wracking. He merely mitigated the Dooms. He didn't avoid the Usurpation. For someone with all the power he's got obvious, massive blindspots and weaknesses. Both the Wracking and the Usurpation could've been avoided if Odyssial was less head-in-the-clouds and actually cared about the little people. There was a lot of good he could've done had Odyssial been less consumed by his own vision of perfection.
We need to learn from his mistakes not embrace them and tie ourselves into learning from, and being perversely rewarded by, following the old route.
We've already seen the road that Odyssial follows and where it ends up. Doing the exact same thing and expecting things to be different is insanity.
Anys knows we are Odyssial and we're going to prove her every fear right? Honestly, I think Odyssial is the absolute worst of the Solars. People go on and on about the Solar's deprivations during the First Age where mortal's lives were worth less than dirt. Why do we want to go back there? If Odyssial embraces the Great Curse then suddenly all those little people don't matter, only Odyssial's ambition. Sure, you can tell yourself that it's going to be better but that's what they all say. It's easy to slaughter millions today and tomorrow for the uncounted billions in the future. And the best part? That never goes away. Exponential grow always means that sacrificing people for the unborn future is a good trade. It never ends. The ends justify the means.
And guess what? Odyssial could've avoided the Wracking and Usurpation had he been a bit less focused on those future unborn.
Rihaku's already said that we'd be abandoning our Satrapy almost immediately in order to try and regain more memories and secure Odyssial's caches. The Satrapy just isn't efficient. Doing anything or associating with anyone outside of a few Elder Exalts is inefficient. Just like the great Solars of old we care nothing for mortals and are certain that we're going to end up making things better. Why is Odyssial different when he's embraced the madness that drove on all the others?
The last time Odyssial grew into his power he nearly cracked Creation open like an egg. Why will that be different this time? The Celestial Incarnae know how far Odyssial's ambition goes so they are going to intervene far, far sooner. Especially when Ayns shows that we reincarnated and learned nothing from it. In the last quest, Lyteck nearly shit himself just from our presence, the Incarnae are never going to leave us be when they see us on the same path.
The double EXP is obviously the first step along the path of a slippery slope. It's an outright mechanic to encourage us along that path!
Odyssial had his chance. He was supposedly nigh omnipotent and even cast down the Unconqured Sun. And he still failed. He didn't prevent the Wracking. He merely mitigated the Dooms. He didn't avoid the Usurpation. For someone with all the power he's got obvious, massive blindspots and weaknesses. Both the Wracking and the Usurpation could've been avoided if Odyssial was less head-in-the-clouds and actually cared about the little people. There was a lot of good he could've done had Odyssial been less consumed by his own vision of perfection.
We need to learn from his mistakes not embrace them and tie ourselves into learning from, and being perversely rewarded by, following the old route.
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
We ARE NOT FOLLOWING IN ODYSSIAL'S FOOTSTEPS we are focusing on unlocking his memories to help us get stronger so we can protect MORE people and I don't see how tthe hell leaving our satrapy in capable hands is "abandoning it"
And unlike those other Solaris we really CAN walk the walk with the Lathe
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Please explain how going for power by unloking more of his memories at the expense of everything else will not make us go further down that route?
The desire for power is neverending, and even Odyssial never reached the point where he could solo the universe. We won't get that kind of time.
And Rihaku has explicitly said that picking this option will encourage picking more and more along the Odyssial line, and this argument will come up again and again and again and again.
Even Odyssial was never "Strong Enough to win everything forever", he always sought out more and more and more and more power, and when the time came to put his endless cultivation to the test... He lost. Despite doing nothing with his life but cultivating his power endlessly.
We won't get his time and leisure, our only response would be to draw on his memories so deeply that there would be nothing of Ulyssian left by the end of that road. Thus, your argument is a fool's bargain, as to get what you claim you want, we'd have to take what you claim you don't want.
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Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
The situation has changed and so have we, as is Odyssial nearly won last time.
Again unless we create a Creation so terrible that Oblivion would be the better option we haven't proved Anys right.
He was inarguable the most terrible though I don't think him the worst.
Because the entire purpose of the Lathe was to create a Creation where mortals lives weren't shit and were worth more then dirt, an indisputably noble goal with horrific means.
We aren't embracing the curse we are deciding to dedicate ourselves to opening up as many memories Odyssial has as possible to better deal with the oncoming threats and eventually ascend to omnipotence. Remember that by Zao's and Ivory's estimations Creation has maybe 20-30 years before its end if nothing changes.
1. The Usurpation could only have been avoided if we had completly gone with a social focused Odyssial, in a way it was doomed the moment we chose Dawn.
2.Blaming Odyssial for the results of Sidereal Hubris catching up to them millennia after his death is rather hillarious.
If you don't like it then vote to say, how is this hard to comprehend? We won't suddenly dash out of Luseng the moment we embrace the Clarity, if nothing else we will have the option to vote on it otherwise there would be no conflict between our emotions and priorities.
Of course we care for the mortals, we just have a temporary SWILHN fixation on saving as many as possible till we establish our utopia.
And to answer your question: An unmatched drive and eventual power.
It probably won't? Odyssial's entire actions towards the end were all about destroying Creation and building something less crapsack in its place, that was the entire point behind the Lathe.
So because the opposition is strong we shouldn't even try, all of Creation knows that Odyssial will always find a way, why should that change now?
You did read the part where Anys betrayed all of Creation and started her mad march to Malfeas right?
So stick around and ensure that things don't get that bad we aren't going to suddenly surrender control of Ulyssian by making this vote.
Why did we choose the Lathe if we were never going to go after it and finish Odyssial's work?
- Location
- The end of all things
I suppose my basic problem with Odyssial is that he is a person who, when fighting the tide, makes plans to destroy the ocean. Why not simply build a series of locks and dikes to keep it back? Sure, it won't solve everything in one fell swoop, but it will make a huge difference, and relatively immediately, whereas attacking the "root" cause is not possible in the short term. You're also a lot more likely to get people to help you when your plans seem reasonable.
So he trains and plans. And then when he grows strong enough, he begins to realize that the Ocean is not even the true enemy. What about the other oceans? What about the land and the sky? What about the infinite void above? All he can do is gather power, without ever actually helping anyone. That was Odyssial, in his permanent limit break.
So he trains and plans. And then when he grows strong enough, he begins to realize that the Ocean is not even the true enemy. What about the other oceans? What about the land and the sky? What about the infinite void above? All he can do is gather power, without ever actually helping anyone. That was Odyssial, in his permanent limit break.
Rihaku
The Internet
Odyssial didn't slaughter any innocents or indulge in any of the deprivations of the other Solars until the Usurpation. He didn't give governance and administration his all, but his realm was probably more orderly and less horrific than the majority of Solar realms before the Usurpation. When the Usurpation came, he did fight with his full power, which did cause apocalyptic damage to Creation, but as far as actual depravities inflicted upon the mortals, he was probably one of the best Solars - not because he was uber compassionate, but because he was a competent ruler and mostly kept to himself.
Mm, I wouldn't downplay his campaigns against the Dooms as mere "mitigation." He's a Dawn, they kill stuff, and destroying enemies was his primary talent. He annihilated 99.5% of the Dooms facing Creation; only in this Age of Sorrows can the remaining 50 (buttressed by those Dooms that spawned in the meantime) mount a credible assault (aside from the Balorin Crusade / Great Contagion).
Of course, he does have many facets that people would consider monstrous - basically enslaving gods that slacked on their jobs, assassinating his fellow Exalts, performing experiments on the fabric of reality, etc. I just don't want you guys thinking he went around butchering millions of random civs for no reason. You guys chose Odyssial's actions in the First Age, and while you didn't choose to make him an incredible leader, neither did you choose to make him someone who would slaughter his own people. They stood for him when the Usurpation came and died on the field of battle at his side, including his Dragon-Blood lieutenants.
Mm, I wouldn't downplay his campaigns against the Dooms as mere "mitigation." He's a Dawn, they kill stuff, and destroying enemies was his primary talent. He annihilated 99.5% of the Dooms facing Creation; only in this Age of Sorrows can the remaining 50 (buttressed by those Dooms that spawned in the meantime) mount a credible assault (aside from the Balorin Crusade / Great Contagion).
Of course, he does have many facets that people would consider monstrous - basically enslaving gods that slacked on their jobs, assassinating his fellow Exalts, performing experiments on the fabric of reality, etc. I just don't want you guys thinking he went around butchering millions of random civs for no reason. You guys chose Odyssial's actions in the First Age, and while you didn't choose to make him an incredible leader, neither did you choose to make him someone who would slaughter his own people. They stood for him when the Usurpation came and died on the field of battle at his side, including his Dragon-Blood lieutenants.
Just a reminder of (what I consider) the best post in the discussion thus far:
People going on about learning from the mistakes of the past to actually, protect innocents: we have the opportunity to acquire the means to protect innocents. We can choose to do so, or not to do so.
Basically, if you choose not to Embrace Clarity then every time you argue for a moral option this:
People going on about learning from the mistakes of the past to actually, protect innocents: we have the opportunity to acquire the means to protect innocents. We can choose to do so, or not to do so.
Basically, if you choose not to Embrace Clarity then every time you argue for a moral option this:
Becomes a valid reaction post. "You're arguing to be moral after you explicitly and knowing rejected and argued against trying to prevent suffering."
You know he did help people out in the meantime, right (we had the opportunity to make him more helpful, but people voted against it in favor of relationships)? We killed a bunch (at least 10,000) of threats to Creation, and expanded Creation itself with our forays into the Wyld.
- Location
- The end of all things
There can be any number of reasons. Perhaps we simply wanted to see the terror of Odyssial inflicted upon the Exalted host themselves. Perhaps we wanted to see how far the hubris of Odyssial could stretch. Perhaps we wanted a symbol of his past that could be specifically repudiated. Perhaps we were curious and simply wanted to know what it did.
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