[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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- exalted (white wolf)
But the options seem pretty linear in their effects, if one votes for Base Sentimentality, they are naturally closer to Trying than Finding a Way?
Rihaku
The Internet
If Finding a Way wins, that won't matter.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
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[X] He could find a way
Taxes up ten percent across the board. Orders to aggressively promote the Immaculate Philosophy, to strike immediately at all the Realm's enemies in the region, to build up Luseng's economy... a contradictory and ill-formed mess.
Alright.
So turn the refugee's into soldiers while teaching them As much of Terrestrial Martial Arts as they can be taught, build the economy by Ransacking the enemies.
Taxes up ten percent across the board. Orders to aggressively promote the Immaculate Philosophy, to strike immediately at all the Realm's enemies in the region, to build up Luseng's economy... a contradictory and ill-formed mess.
Alright.
So turn the refugee's into soldiers while teaching them As much of Terrestrial Martial Arts as they can be taught, build the economy by Ransacking the enemies.
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But Finding a Way and Sentimentality are diametrically opposite extremes. Arguing for one should weaken the other.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
[X] The Seat of the Empire
[X] He could try
[X] Grin and bear it
My less than two cents. Traveling, not feeling like arguing this out heavily. An open-ended commitment like "Find a Way" strikes me as a tad undesirable and likely to pin Ulyssian in place, and setting off the Realm Civil War now would run counter to our previous choices and strategy. We should wait until Luseng is an appropriate power-base, and then Prophecy spam Anys Syn to Hell.
I'd also be on-board with getting together with Ivory and breaking into the Loom of Fate if we get the chance; sounds like we might need to beat Anys to the punch there anyway.
[X] He could try
[X] Grin and bear it
My less than two cents. Traveling, not feeling like arguing this out heavily. An open-ended commitment like "Find a Way" strikes me as a tad undesirable and likely to pin Ulyssian in place, and setting off the Realm Civil War now would run counter to our previous choices and strategy. We should wait until Luseng is an appropriate power-base, and then Prophecy spam Anys Syn to Hell.
I'd also be on-board with getting together with Ivory and breaking into the Loom of Fate if we get the chance; sounds like we might need to beat Anys to the punch there anyway.
Rihaku
The Internet
But if Find a Way wins, that won't matter. It's not as if your action will be a composite of what's argued for, it'll be whichever option wins. So you should make every argument you can against a position you don't like, and if it doesn't seem to be working, then vote and argue strategically.
Gerrou's argument just convinced me due to synergy.
[X] The Seat of the Empire
[X] He could try
[X] Subversion
[X] The Seat of the Empire
[X] He could try
[X] Subversion
Rihaku
The Internet
It currently looks like Shining Metropolis is ahead on arguments, mostly due to Serous and some other posters arguing heavily for it. However, it's a pretty close race.
Hm... Teaching them TMA and turning them into soldiers wouldn't qualify as 'finding a way.' It's insufficient security and actively places them against supernatural harm. Rather, doing something like ripping the local fabric of reality to ensure that humans in Luseng automatically turn into ghosts when they die, and then binding those ghosts into something indestructible, like a soulsteel artifact, would better qualify. Alloy the soulsteel or structure its evocations so they aren't in constant pain, and then use Summoning the Loyal Steel to banish it to Elsewhere to ensure that no one else can get at it. Alternatively, cast Luseng and its people outside of space and time to ensure that nothing can hurt them until you are powerful enough to protect them properly, or fuse their souls into a single multifaceted overmind and bind it to a body of pure moonsilver, then isolate it from the world by a sequence of eight Ambition 3 Solar Circle Workings to create a Seal of Eight Divinities / Avalon-level defense against outside intrusion.
That's finding a way. Half-assed measures that leave open the possibility of their death with even mediocre Exalted intereference is not up to Odyssial's standards. Finding a way doesn't mean doing what looks good or what doing what is conventionally secure. Finding a way means attaining victory at any cost, even in the face of determined and epic heroism against you.
Also, mortals can't learn TMA in 3E (TMA doesn't strictly exist).
Hm... Teaching them TMA and turning them into soldiers wouldn't qualify as 'finding a way.' It's insufficient security and actively places them against supernatural harm. Rather, doing something like ripping the local fabric of reality to ensure that humans in Luseng automatically turn into ghosts when they die, and then binding those ghosts into something indestructible, like a soulsteel artifact, would better qualify. Alloy the soulsteel or structure its evocations so they aren't in constant pain, and then use Summoning the Loyal Steel to banish it to Elsewhere to ensure that no one else can get at it. Alternatively, cast Luseng and its people outside of space and time to ensure that nothing can hurt them until you are powerful enough to protect them properly, or fuse their souls into a single multifaceted overmind and bind it to a body of pure moonsilver, then isolate it from the world by a sequence of eight Ambition 3 Solar Circle Workings to create a Seal of Eight Divinities / Avalon-level defense against outside intrusion.
That's finding a way. Half-assed measures that leave open the possibility of their death with even mediocre Exalted intereference is not up to Odyssial's standards. Finding a way doesn't mean doing what looks good or what doing what is conventionally secure. Finding a way means attaining victory at any cost, even in the face of determined and epic heroism against you.
Also, mortals can't learn TMA in 3E (TMA doesn't strictly exist).
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Sooooo, yeah.... Rihaku makes a very good argument against Finding A Way.
I don't think the citizens of Luseng have any desire for such overbearing levels of protection, honestly. Our people are a significant portion of Luseng's power, and while we should care for and protect them against all reasonable (and even some unreasonable) threats, both because we're their sovereign and because protecting them is in our best interests as well, this level of adulation is hardly sufficient to warp Ulyssian's values to the point where he will go up against the fundamental forces of reality to defend them.
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- Location
- USA
I believe he is arguing that because the 3 options are effectively linear, then you could easily treat that as a very simple instant runoff where every single "base sentimentality" voter can be assumed to be redirected into "he would try" if that choice obviously loses. (or vice versa)
Such that if the vote was hypothetically:
Find a way 18
He would try = 14
base sentimentality = 10
It would be the win for he would try. Since eliminating base sentimentality folds all those votes into he would try, giving it a total of 24.
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You know what both of these are missing? Any reliance to Uly valuing mortals' wellbeing as an end in and of itself.
If these are actually effective, Uly will do them whether he cares about mortals or not. If they aren't, we shouldn't be doing them in the first place.
Rihaku
The Internet
Don't you care about them living? This world isn't safe, you have to make sure that they survive. Dozens are probably dying of disease and deprivation every single day.
You could change that. But it takes drastic action.
People never do, until their lives are actually and imminently in danger. Ask whether they'd rather have been absolutely secure and experiencing no subjective time or boredom until Odyssial was strong enough to truly protect them, when the Abyssal sword is falling on them, and you'll get quite a different answer in most cases.
Frankly, for a Solar Circle Sorceror of Ulyssian's potential power, this is the work of six months or less. Hardly an epoch-spanning detour, and one that would truly save lives in an age where life is extremely precious and difficult to defend.
It will not be calculated such, especially if the choices are as even as they are.
Using Zao weakens his authority but frees up time for us, time we can use to then cast more prophecies to once again strengthen his authority and do a bunch of other things, rather using that time inefficiently working around Anys strictures.
Rihaku
The Internet
Well, prophecies don't have unlimited power. At some point you're going to run out of factors that you can find definitive sources on to leverage!
- Location
- USA
Yep.
And its better to stack prophecies with other favorable actions rather then using them to mitigate unfavorable actions.
True, but implementing such measures requires becoming a Solar Circle Sorceror in the first place, which has its own opportunity costs. Six months is a long time to focus on one corner of Creation when the whole of it is imperiled.
- Location
- USA
interestingly, people seems to have been switching over to seat of empire:
[] The Polis of Legend
No. of votes: 4
Savonarola, Vitaris, useofstrike32, WorldSlayer
[] The Seat of Empire
No. of votes: 20
Gaudy Guise, skaro, jean5, DakkaMania, Satar, Dark Lord Bob, Van Ropen, 1986ctcel, Elero, LordOfMurder, afterthought53, Jouaint, Gerrou, Usernames, remulian, Coaxmetal, mrttao, CharlBaal, Cavalier, cyberswordsmen
[] The Shining Metropolis
No. of votes: 17
gigantisrex, Deadly Snark, sithmor, inventive alias, Katreus, cb_urk, Daniel14541, Emerald Oracle, veekie, dragon, Diller, andres, Neptune
Algalon, Serous, Fumbles, Brekouh
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Rihaku
The Internet
I think you guys are pretty set on Sorcery, from what I've seen. Not that it's going to pass without a vote - certainly it has to win that first - but I imagine it will win the vote when the time comes.
Anyway, that is what finding a way means. It means winning even if your solution sounds strange or excessive, because the task that the world has set you is difficult enough that the solutions that sound conventional aren't likely to work. The world, after all, doesn't bound its challenges into neat packages that can infallibly be solved by reasonable-sounding initiatives. Winning even when all the circumstances are against you.
In the future, take note of the import of that option. It is nothing to be entered into lightly. It is unleashing the full Ulyssian experience against a subject. He does not stop. He does not give up. He does not hesitate to make preparations others would classify as excessive. He finds a way. Always.
Or he dies trying.
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- Location
- USA
an important distinction. Uly died before vs that solar during the first incarnation of the quest and we ended up death knight instead of solar.
The dice failed us during the second version incarnation and we had to sell ourselves to hell.
And in this incarnation of the quest, odyssius died at the height of his power, and uly might yet end up killing himself
Rihaku
The Internet
Hm. It's a viable write-in option, especially since you are now very strong. With this story coming to a close soon, Wake the Sleeper can see some use as well. After that, getting into Heaven will likely be a lot safer and easier, though still not safe or easy. Is there interest in it, though? It's still a major commitment for something you prophecies can kind of replicate.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Ah, but stack the Loom manipulation with Prophecies (and of course the Loom-hacking can also provide direct, personal assistance to keeping our allies alive) and that should probably accomplish some really powerful effects. It'd be the perfect way to kick off the Realm Civil War and to have heresy sweep through against the Immaculate Order in just the way we want it to, I think.