Could be, perhaps the trauma from the time we decided to learn Martial Arts from him is influencing people.
[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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- exalted (white wolf)
Could be, perhaps the trauma from the time we decided to learn Martial Arts from him is influencing people.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Yes, but why is mortal welfare suddenly such a huge concern? It's a vague one, sure, and theoretically the long term goal of Ody's desire to remake reality...but the fact that these options synergize for mortal welfare...so what? Why is it our focus now.
Mortal welfare isn't going to matter until Anys is eliminated and Creation rallied against the threats it faces. Building up Luseng and making the mortals in it happy...meh? The power base is nice, if worryingly small/brittle, and the fact that we are an example for satrapies everywhere is lovely, but how are we going to be getting rid of Anys in the end?
[X] Metropolis
[X] He could try.
[X] Grin and bear it.
I don't mind minor investment in mortal welfare, and with the stated intent of Metropolis, it should be a trivial side effect. I'm swapping to Grin and bear it because Metropolis seems better positioned to do so while building our strength.
So, getting back to the important things, what kind of visual aesthetic will we grant our first creation? I'm very fond of royal colors, and I think it should have an appearance which makes its artificial nature obvious. Some sort of signature or theme which calls Ulyssian to mind, as well, so there's never any doubt who built it.
Will it be specialized as an administrator, or to fill some other role?
Would it be possible to build a sorcerer?
[X] He could try.
[X] Grin and bear it.
I don't mind minor investment in mortal welfare, and with the stated intent of Metropolis, it should be a trivial side effect. I'm swapping to Grin and bear it because Metropolis seems better positioned to do so while building our strength.
So, getting back to the important things, what kind of visual aesthetic will we grant our first creation? I'm very fond of royal colors, and I think it should have an appearance which makes its artificial nature obvious. Some sort of signature or theme which calls Ulyssian to mind, as well, so there's never any doubt who built it.
Will it be specialized as an administrator, or to fill some other role?
Would it be possible to build a sorcerer?
I see it as a big deal for two reasons.
1. Force multiplier. Mortals are massively numerous so if we find away to buff them in bulk enough to matter we can build a army superior to basically anything in creation right now. Especially with our support.
2. Propaganda. Making our city an awesome place to live boosts our reputation and gives us a resume for being awesome in more ways that just being very killy.
[X] Metropolis
[X] He could try.
[X] Grin and bear it.
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Unforunately mortals don't matter that much when essence combat is involved.
SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
[X] Grin and Bear It
[X] The Shining Metropolis
[X] He could try
[X] The Shining Metropolis
[X] He could try
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[X] The Shining Metropolis
[X] He could try
[X] Grin and Bear It
Aren't a number of votes being nulled in the vote counter because people are only voting for the latest one.
Edit - Just read Rihaku's latest posts and that it is on arguments for which direction Luseng goes.
[X] He could try
[X] Grin and Bear It
Aren't a number of votes being nulled in the vote counter because people are only voting for the latest one.
Edit - Just read Rihaku's latest posts and that it is on arguments for which direction Luseng goes.
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While I don't mind Grin, but I think we should consider Naval as well.
Naval allows us to buy a lot more time than Grin. The main disadvantage is that it would cause trouble for Zao. However, he is better equipped to deal with it than us, and if we buy enough time, Anys would no longer be able to send such orders to us. The possible loss of Zao's political capital is not such a big issue, since if we kick off the Civil War it won't really matter much.
Naval allows us to buy a lot more time than Grin. The main disadvantage is that it would cause trouble for Zao. However, he is better equipped to deal with it than us, and if we buy enough time, Anys would no longer be able to send such orders to us. The possible loss of Zao's political capital is not such a big issue, since if we kick off the Civil War it won't really matter much.
- Location
- USA
1. I thought it meant saving people in general, not just those specific people at the cost of other people elsewhere.
2. I thought it meant properly framing our main goal as protecting people rather then vengeance, or protecting creation itself (the objects not the people), or the killing of creations enemies. If it comes to a choice between killing some fae and saving humans, go with saving humans.
subversion isn't destroying the realm. the goal is usurp the realm and actually get ex immaculate DB masters fighting alongside anathema to save the world together. You can't do it without breaking a few eggs. The realm is massively wasting lives and effort on suppressing celestials, their biggest deathtoll comes from them fighting pointless the bull of the north, a solar whose own empire now surpasses the realm army and the only reason he didn't conquer them yet is that the realm still controls the sea and prevents him from marshalling his troops properly against them (something we have been helping with a lot)
do we need to reiterate previous arguments? or are you taking into account all the arguments made since we started?
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- Location
- USA
Metropolis is explicitly the option where we completely forgo any and all strength building (as explicitly stated by QM), the justification given for it by people thus far is that it gives us political clout in the realm and also lets us perform more prophecies than other options, which was explicitly argued as a way to subvert the realm and usurp control over it from anys.
You are marrying a vote to explicitly avoid any realm subversion with avoiding personal strength buildup as well! And then you are calling it "the best way to build up our strength"? how in the world is it strength building?
If you want to vote metropolis then you should vote subversion and lets get serious about usurping control over the realm and perpetuating immaculate heresy.
If you don't want to usurp the realm/immaculate heresy then go with seat of empire where we are explicitly carving ourselves an empire whose army equals the realm in power... and doing so without weakening the realm itself by conquering its enemies (death lords, fae, solars, lunars. With many of those actually becoming our vassals rather than dying)
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- Location
- USA
QM explicitly warned us that this means sacrificing the lives of mortals elsewhere for the well being of those in our satrapy, as well as potentially doing henious stuff and sacrificing their quality of life to save their life, as well as making other major sacrifices. just so you know. (I had similar reasons to yours but changed my vote when he explained)
Because that is not actually what we are voting for. Its not that we don't want to use zao, its that we want to use zao for something useful.
Using zao here is explicitly stated to weaken his authority, we are consuming his political clout to bail us out, without harming anys. The end result is our power bloc in the realm becomes weaker.
Using subversion on the other hand means that under our own power we actively work to weaken immaculate dogma, weaken anys, and not weaken zao, and not tie up zao's time and effort. Zao can then simultaneously work on chipping away at her authority elsewhere. Thus overall this choice improves our power bloc.
given the choice between improving our power bloc and degrading it, I would go with improving it. Especially if we end up going with metroplis and realm usurpation route. And the social engineering experience we gain performing subversion will only help us further.
This is a useful choice regardless if we go metro, empire, or polis.
Some say we are "weakening the realm", but in truth I find that the realm hunting down and murdering their baby solars and lunars instead of recruiting them is what is truly weakening it, the reason creation has decades to survive, and that it will be far stronger when solars and DB can openly fight side by side
I am still really hyped up about my previous idea of teaching sorcery to disprove immaculate dogma (QM found the notion interesting). I realize now that I never formally stated what the overall plan of action would have been, so here it is:
1. Choose Polis of Legend, using the jade mountain to get massive army of DB by bribing them with jade artifacts
2. subvert those DBs that work for us by requiring them to study sorcery, which allows them to disprove immaculate dogma under their own power (as well as give their word to their peers who haven't studied sorcery)
3. use subversion choice on latest vote to further weaken immaculate dogma and not tie up zao's action
4. use subversive prophecies to further undermine immaculates
5. have zao subvert the cream of the realm's DB in his school, with both his own personal authority (he is the man who mentored the empress, older than the empire) and teaching sorcery so they can get proof on their own.
Thanks, I was misinformed on how the vote counter work.
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Naval Assistance is looking very good, actually. It buys us time at the expense of Zao's political capital, sure, but aren't we trying to more or less overthrow the Realm anyway? I guess the resources that Zao expends to delay the messenger could otherwise be used on convincing people to ally with us/him? Of course, we might not need that delay, in which case Subversion might be nice - go immediately for the throat or try and pick off the other Satrapys.
Of course, if we end up having a bunch of Celestial Exalted we don't really need very many DB allies from Zao, do we? On top of picking The Seat of the Empire, we can also ally ourselves with Lily, who's supposed to be a crazy strong Abyssal.
That's not to say we should ignore any possible Realm allies, just that we don't need to rely on them too heavily, which is good because we don't exactly jive with their whole Immaculate thing. (Looking at possible Realm allies, House Nellens? Our city is pretty nice for mortals, although He Could Find A Way might ruin that. I guess I don't really know much about the DB Houses, so that's about all I got.)
[X] The Seat of the Empire
[X] He could try
[X] Subversion
Also, I think we should really work on getting the Lily on our side. What kind of Solar would we be without a full "harem" of Abyssals following us?
Of course, if we end up having a bunch of Celestial Exalted we don't really need very many DB allies from Zao, do we? On top of picking The Seat of the Empire, we can also ally ourselves with Lily, who's supposed to be a crazy strong Abyssal.
That's not to say we should ignore any possible Realm allies, just that we don't need to rely on them too heavily, which is good because we don't exactly jive with their whole Immaculate thing. (Looking at possible Realm allies, House Nellens? Our city is pretty nice for mortals, although He Could Find A Way might ruin that. I guess I don't really know much about the DB Houses, so that's about all I got.)
[X] The Seat of the Empire
[X] He could try
[X] Subversion
Also, I think we should really work on getting the Lily on our side. What kind of Solar would we be without a full "harem" of Abyssals following us?
Emerald Oracle
Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force
- Location
- The Else
Y'know, something I haven't thought of. If Subversion wins, could it be used to buff Zao as much as it does screw over Anys? or is that too blatant? Because, if the initiatives of Hesiesh fail, but those of Admiral Zao prosper, I have to wonder how it will look to the higher ups of the Realm. The more she is less than immaculately perfect the more threadbare her bluff becomes and the more unstable her position.
My great worry about the option still stands. I don't want Anys Syn to go Full Crazy on us. But, helping Zao is still attractive!
My great worry about the option still stands. I don't want Anys Syn to go Full Crazy on us. But, helping Zao is still attractive!
- Location
- USA
As someone who has been pushing the subversion option, I gotta say its not out of any desire for vengeance (I hope this is taken to account when the details of our acts are hammered out); I would even be willing to work with anys if she can be convinced to see reason.
Rather we need to make sure that we are the winner of a realm civil war so that creation will be defended by celestials and DB armies fighting side by side. Weakening the realm in a way that harms our enemies and strengthens our allies within the realm is simply a sensible path for survival of creation. Weakening the realm in such a way is a necessary evil akin to amputating a gangrened arm to save a life, or chemotherapy for a cancer patient.
I previously explained what I thought it meant. However, thinking over it and looking back on the thread and people's posts. Certainly some people understood, and they voted "He could try".
But I am pretty sure that most people who are voting for "Find a way" have that same misconception as I had.
Here are those that voted for "find a way" and explained why:
It seems to me that they mostly share my prior misconception
Then we have:
who initially had the misconception, but then figured it out.
and here is someone who voted for it and explained his vote in a manner which I think does not address that specific part, but I am not sure (I think he was explaining the grin and bear it rather than he will find a way)
As for uly's personality. His personality is someone who works all day and night to acquire enough power to matter. who also tries to help people when he can because he cares somewhat and it makes his friends (and moon) happy.
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- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
We're fucking over the Realm in that option by seriously weakening it bureaucracy as well as starting the civil war which means Zao is likely going to be really busy with that AND stopping any enemies of the Realm from trying to take advantage of it
- Location
- USA
I assumed that was obvious. although I figured it would require some extra actions from us in the future, such as some prophecies.
It might be better to outright state it, though
She is bound to do so eventually if we fail to die and actually grow in power, this just moves up her time table.
And this is the only path I can see to actually force her to the negotiation table and to make her compromise her bronze faction ideals. In essence by holding creation hostage (in her mind, as she believes only the realm can save creation). if we demonstrate that the realm cannot survive rebellious solaroids then she must compromise on the immaculate doctrine and integrate them into the realm to save creation.
Alternatively, we force her to attempt to assassinate us with a group of other bronze factions which means giving us a chance to slay her instead (in such a case it would really help if we went with seat of empire and had a circle of celestials)
Perfect opportunity for him and uly to step up and take advantage of it (and technically, they are enemies of the realm as it exists right now, they are immaculate heretics)
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The sudden care for the well-deing of the masses is baffling. Are there actually any practical applications of choosing Trying It or Finding a Way? Because the cost seems quite high.
I guess it may prove useful for supporting positive public opinion of Ulyssian in the face of the rampant conqest of The Seat of Empire, but it it is not like Base Sentimentality equals inefficient governing. On the contrary, being able to see the bigger picture is more useful when surrounded by enemies, both within and without the Realm. We simply do not have the ability to effectively give a fuck about a big amount of people without major investments and, thus, without hampering our main vector of action. Especially so with the Seat, but it is arguable even for Metropolis.
By choosing Metropolis, Ulyssian will already be set as a well-loved Philosopher King of a thriving state; additional actions in that vain would be an overinvestment. In that case it would be more logical to cover the glaring weakness of Metropolis - military strength - rather than direct all attention within.
And, well. Odyssial thinks Base Sentimentality is better, why not trust his experience? We disregarded his opinion once, after killing Polemgaos. Look where that got us.
[X] The Seat of Empire
[X] Base Sentimentality
[X] Subversion
Full attack mode. Obviously trying for synergy. The Seat of Empire became more attractive after this update - the rabble loves us, we continously failed to gain the loyalty of the DBs and administrative workers, time to look for other options. This actually seems quite similar to the previous chance for starting a civil war. We have a starting power-base, we would gain Celestial allies by word of QM, our current forces are still affected by our impossible string of victories. Anys Syn, judging from her indirect method of keeping Ulyssian in check, does not overly expect him to move agressively (relatively). Zao should still have the boost from our recent Prophecy, which is gradually worn away by Syn.
So we can have a still strong ally in the Realm, our own force of elite forces and regular armies, and a weakened Syn. And it will start on our terms, by out initiative. We have been playing exceedingly reactively for some time, let's change the pace.
I guess it may prove useful for supporting positive public opinion of Ulyssian in the face of the rampant conqest of The Seat of Empire, but it it is not like Base Sentimentality equals inefficient governing. On the contrary, being able to see the bigger picture is more useful when surrounded by enemies, both within and without the Realm. We simply do not have the ability to effectively give a fuck about a big amount of people without major investments and, thus, without hampering our main vector of action. Especially so with the Seat, but it is arguable even for Metropolis.
By choosing Metropolis, Ulyssian will already be set as a well-loved Philosopher King of a thriving state; additional actions in that vain would be an overinvestment. In that case it would be more logical to cover the glaring weakness of Metropolis - military strength - rather than direct all attention within.
And, well. Odyssial thinks Base Sentimentality is better, why not trust his experience? We disregarded his opinion once, after killing Polemgaos. Look where that got us.
[X] The Seat of Empire
[X] Base Sentimentality
[X] Subversion
Full attack mode. Obviously trying for synergy. The Seat of Empire became more attractive after this update - the rabble loves us, we continously failed to gain the loyalty of the DBs and administrative workers, time to look for other options. This actually seems quite similar to the previous chance for starting a civil war. We have a starting power-base, we would gain Celestial allies by word of QM, our current forces are still affected by our impossible string of victories. Anys Syn, judging from her indirect method of keeping Ulyssian in check, does not overly expect him to move agressively (relatively). Zao should still have the boost from our recent Prophecy, which is gradually worn away by Syn.
So we can have a still strong ally in the Realm, our own force of elite forces and regular armies, and a weakened Syn. And it will start on our terms, by out initiative. We have been playing exceedingly reactively for some time, let's change the pace.
- Location
- USA
You know what, your well reasoned argument convinced me.
I am changing my vote from Trying.
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Rihaku
The Internet
The reason people are switching to Trying is because it had a better chance against Will Find a Way. If you split the vote, it's just going to lose again.
- Location
- USA
Oh, I was not aware the current vote was so lopsided.
Nevermind then. Strategic vote:
[X] The Seat of the Empire
[X] He could try
[X] Subversion
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Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] He could find a way.
No. of votes: 17
Tazered, veekie, dragon, Random Asian Person, LordOfMurder, arrepio, Brekouh, MrGazzer, kinglugia, Delwgun, Jorlem, VanusDraco, Wing101, inawarminister, Reckless_Sun, CrawlingChaos74, Eliar
[X] Base Sentimentality
No. of votes: 4
Orm Embar, Dark Lord Bob, Gerrou, Usernames
[x] He could Try
No. of votes: 25
Emerald Oracle, Darklord., Van Ropen, aja318, 1986ctcel, Elero, afterthought53, Valor, Alectai, meianmaru, Anasurimbor, Jouaint, Serous, jamie96969, Thomasfoolery, Mishco, Fumbles, cyberswordsmen, SirLagginton, Neptune, Coaxmetal, mrttao, Robotninja, Aloysius, WorldSlayer
[X] Grin and bear it.
No. of votes: 23
Tazered, Emerald Oracle, veekie, Darklord., inawarminister, dragon, Random Asian Person, aja318, 1986ctcel, LordOfMurder, Valor, Alectai, meianmaru, Anasurimbor, arrepio, Serous, jamie96969, Mishco, Fumbles, cyberswordsmen, SirLagginton, Neptune, Eliar
[X] Subversion
No. of votes: 18
Dark Lord Bob, Van Ropen, remulian, Elero, afterthought53, Jouaint, Brekouh, Coaxmetal, Gerrou, Usernames, mrttao, MrGazzer, Delwgun, Jorlem, VanusDraco, Wing101, Reckless_Sun, CrawlingChaos74
[X] Naval Assistance
No. of votes: 3
Thomasfoolery, Robotninja, WorldSlayer
##### 3.21
[X] He could find a way.
No. of votes: 17
Tazered, veekie, dragon, Random Asian Person, LordOfMurder, arrepio, Brekouh, MrGazzer, kinglugia, Delwgun, Jorlem, VanusDraco, Wing101, inawarminister, Reckless_Sun, CrawlingChaos74, Eliar
[X] Base Sentimentality
No. of votes: 4
Orm Embar, Dark Lord Bob, Gerrou, Usernames
[x] He could Try
No. of votes: 25
Emerald Oracle, Darklord., Van Ropen, aja318, 1986ctcel, Elero, afterthought53, Valor, Alectai, meianmaru, Anasurimbor, Jouaint, Serous, jamie96969, Thomasfoolery, Mishco, Fumbles, cyberswordsmen, SirLagginton, Neptune, Coaxmetal, mrttao, Robotninja, Aloysius, WorldSlayer
[X] Grin and bear it.
No. of votes: 23
Tazered, Emerald Oracle, veekie, Darklord., inawarminister, dragon, Random Asian Person, aja318, 1986ctcel, LordOfMurder, Valor, Alectai, meianmaru, Anasurimbor, arrepio, Serous, jamie96969, Mishco, Fumbles, cyberswordsmen, SirLagginton, Neptune, Eliar
[X] Subversion
No. of votes: 18
Dark Lord Bob, Van Ropen, remulian, Elero, afterthought53, Jouaint, Brekouh, Coaxmetal, Gerrou, Usernames, mrttao, MrGazzer, Delwgun, Jorlem, VanusDraco, Wing101, Reckless_Sun, CrawlingChaos74
[X] Naval Assistance
No. of votes: 3
Thomasfoolery, Robotninja, WorldSlayer