AZATHOTHoth
༼ つ ☀️_☀️ ༽つ
Hey, I always wondered if Odyssial had killed the unconquered sun would he take the place of the one he killed? And what would the repercussions of that act be?(Don't know much about Exalted)
[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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- exalted (white wolf)
It seems kind of hypocritical to argue against the terribleness of Odyssial after working to make him that terrible. This isn't even specific to the Lathe; people speak of the "mistakes of the past" when they voted for them because they wanted them.
I don't have my Exalted books on me (so if someone else could get Return of the Scarlet Empress out that'd be nice) but as for becoming the Sun, no. There are rituals the Incarnae can enact to make someone inherit the mantle of a dead one, but they aren't automatically applied to the killer and it'd be a downgrade for Odyssial.
Should have voted Sorcery, would've gotten a better reincarnation.
Then we will be accused of using social magic to brain wash the masses into loving us.
The nature of our mission is that a significant portion of the population finds it objectionable. The DB's will always prefer to be in power even if a Raksha horde coming for them. We can't please everyone, even trying to do it leads to an inferior outcome.
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- The end of all things
A truly sad statement about the end of the First Age, that mere competence and distance made for one of the best rulers.
He clearly did a lot of good, but also much harm. Could we have gotten the former without the latter? Isn't that half the debate here?
I don't think I had really seen anyone suggesting this, though that may have been scant comfort to those he crushed in that apocalypse.
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
By Ulyssian's own admission he is terrible at being charasmatic, while it would be possible for him to struggle against it it runs into the same problems that the Lily faced with administration, it simply isn't where his talents lie.
While people were pretty hyped about getting the triple crown of terror Odyssial's rage against the world and the impact it would have on Ulyssian were always the main reason for getting the Lathe if you'll look back.
- Location
- The end of all things
I don't think so. I thought it was interesting to set Odyssial up as someone who had good goals and then went way, way too far. As a mistake not to be repeated, something that would leave messy fallout for us to deal with.
Though honestly, I would have preferred something less than Heartlessness 10, but that was always extremely unlikely at best.
Generally ideas are defined as "good" because they're effective in seeking some goal. What goal are you espousing?
Because if it's helping people there is an option that makes Uly prioritize that and give him extra power to enact that, and it isn't Resist.
We have goals that, to get people to agree with them through love, would require us to brainwash them. I'm all for brainwashing people (other people seem more leery), but if we're going that far Odyssial already has his own effective brainwashing style. Plus:
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To some extent it could be applied to the current day, as well.
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EnderofWorlds
Kneel, mongrel
- Location
- My Ship of Light in the Cosmos
How can we attain a better understanding of Odyssial if we don't, you know, seek out the memories of Odyssial? Also, the argument of going with Clarity means abandoning our friends is a fallacy; sure, there may be less focus on them, but that happens in life all the goddamn time. There are stretches of time wherein one's responsibilities and ones friendships come into conflict, and they must choose which to prioritize. And guess what? 99% of the time, it's the responsibilities that win out because that's how life works. Yes, some distance grows between you and your friends, but the responsibilities that you must face are done so with the understanding that it is what's best for everyone; them included.
Solar competence, so don't undersell Odyssial's rule here. And, with the understanding of Limit Breaks, distance is the best thing for a Solar ruler.
When someone who can literally strategize so well that it's borderline prophecy at work believes that it's the most optimal path, then it's pretty hard to argue against that. Odyssial did the best he could with the skills and resources available to him, to deny that is to deny the character himself and devalue everything he did. Every kill he committed was done with good cause and minimize the amount of lives lost, he did not commit any action unjustly or without the best of intentions.
And those he crushed were crushed in the name of the countless lives he would save in doing so, and given that he didn't commit wanton slaughter chances are those that he killed were far from innocent and were likely on the field of battle.
I disagree, it wasn't too far; it was a realization of what Creation truly is, a plaything/farm for the greater Powers That Be, be they the Titans, the Gods, or whatever may come after - Creation and it's denizens have and always will be but amusements and playthings to them. The only way to change that is to change the game in its entirety and make a new board.
Rihaku
The Internet
Well, people were saying "kill millions to save billions" etc, and he never really did that - he caused apocalyptic damage defending himself from the Usurpation, but I think most people would defend themselves with their full strength if attacked by dozens of Sidereals and millions of DBs.
Of course, that's not to say he wouldn't kill the few to save the many, but that would apply only to scenarios where there was literally no other choice, which pop up fairly rarely - Oramus' hypotheticals and stuff like that, not really in the practical course of rule. Most of the time he could just find a way around it. And, when you get down to it, if there is literally no other option, then the outcome is
A) billions of people die
B) millions of people die
And I think most people would choose B. It's all good and well to say that it's evil to kill millions to save billions, but if there is actually no third way, then the decision-maker has to make a choice, and which is less evil? Every choice looks easy until the person criticizing the choice, becomes the decision-maker themselves. Just like every outcome looks obvious in retrospect, but you rarely see people accurately predicting them and willing to put their actual reputation on the line.
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- USA
I noticed a some overlap between the embrace faction and the sorcery faction... isn't that a contradiction? if we leave we are not going to have the resources of a satrapy to make sorcerous works, we are not going to have mortal armies to turn into a horde of mortal sorcerers.
The problem is that ody did not actually save billions. because people saw him sacrifice millions and ganged up on him as "evil", he sacrificed millions for nothing, he failed.
the fact is, without absolute omniscience you cannot be certain that killing millions will save billions. and we know that essence breaks all forms of future prediction
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- The end of all things
Has anyone thought about why The Fairest was able to tame Odyssial's nigh-permanent limit break? My first thought was some sort of magic, but I no longer think so. Perhaps it was simply a reflection of how important she was to him. More important even than self-improvement. Perhaps he cared about her so much that he listened to her advice, even when at times it seemed illogical and counterproductive to his clarified mind.
This is a chance for Moon to play the same role for Ulyssian. To temper his drive with wisdom and restraint. But she can only do so if we allow her to.
This is a chance for Moon to play the same role for Ulyssian. To temper his drive with wisdom and restraint. But she can only do so if we allow her to.
So we're just going to follow Odyssial's plan but not actually walk in his footsteps?
Odyssial's entire plan was to walk the earth after reincarnating and gathering his memories and caches. Remember, Odyssial knows he's perfection deep in his bones. Since his dream needs him (and he's basically omnipotent) walking along his road, following his plan, is going to do everything possible to generate another Odyssial. Because he's perfect and his way is best way.
You mean the Satrapy where we're 75% of its military might. Ragmar or the Fae would roll over the Legion if we weren't there. Lily's too busy doing her own thing and she's a shit administrator. Even if by some miracle she could replace our military might (which being Anathema, she can't) then people are just going to starve to death or die of disease. It's only our skill at bureaucracy that allows the Satrapy to function.
Don't kid yourself, Luseng was screwed without us and its situation hasn't changed that much.
Instead we'll just reduce all of Creation to ash and then wipe out whatever remains. Remember, human souls were created specifically by the Primordials to be fallible and painful. We'd have to wipe them all out (literally destroying the souls of everything) and start from scratch.
Honestly, oblivion is a pretty good worse-than-death.
...And? Why do we care about Creation?
Odyssial cares about his dream. Everything about Creation was designed to maximize mortal agony, trying to preserve some of that only decreased his future perfect omnipotent utility.
I remember reading through the options and there were chances to prevent the Wracking and Usurpation. Since Odyssial is godlike and virtually omnipotent he should've done so. We knew that those options would've made things better but didn't go through with them. The Lathe of Heaven was a latch-ditch effort to do something. And then suddenly all our Heartlessness is justified. Are we really certain that Odyssial beat the Great Curse by magnifying it? What proof do we have that the Lathe wasn't something created by a mad god-king?
No, why would we stay? We're literally (personally) worth more than the entire Satrapy (Rihaku even quantified how much for us). Odyssial's memories and power were worth more than the Celestial Incarnae themselves. What in the ever loving hell is remotely close to that type of power? Odyssial was basically omnipotent, even if we manage to gasp only a thousandth of that it outweighs everything.
Mortals are dirt beneath our shoe. They contribute nothing meaningful. They affect nothing. They are insignificant. Rihaku's already established that outside of a few Elder Exalts, nobody is worth our time. We can slaughter dragonbloods by the millions and mortals by the billions at peak power. They give us nothing.
I don't understand why people are harping about staying with our friends, it's blatantly, obviously inefficient. Mountain Hero, Moon, Nellus; we can slaughter people like them by the dozens already. Investing in them is profoundly inefficient. Regaining Odyssial's memories will increase our net power by so much more.
Rihaku, does Odyssial have any meaningful flaws? Any at all? Did he ever make a mistake?
EnderofWorlds
Kneel, mongrel
- Location
- My Ship of Light in the Cosmos
That's cute, and fucking hilarious; the Fairest was listened to because she was wise beyond her years and was a really powerful Sid.
Rihaku
The Internet
Everyone has flaws. You can see Odyssial's flaws in the outgrowth of his behavior during the Primordial War. He's antisocial to the extreme, and generally bad at non-hostile social interactions. He had an irrational aversion to learning Sorcery because of Nio. He doesn't get over things easily and tends to obsess/fixate, beyond what is reasonable, on good or bad events that occurred to him as as mortal. He has a completely disproportionate idea of vengeance. And plenty more.
Aside from the social ineptitude, if you're asking whether he had any particular capabilities he was deficient in - not really, though he was far better at killing things than building them. He was a First Age Solar obsessed with becoming powerful; of course he was unassailably skilled and insanely powerful. Whether that power was directed towards a good purpose, is up to you guys to decide. If he was evil, all his power is a bad thing. And there is certainly an argument for his having been evil. I had a series of posts on this topic, earlier in the thread, perhaps you missed them - it should help clarify things. It's understandable that the thread moves fast, so I don't expect everyone to read every post.
Remember Rule 6. This is game about the consequences of extreme power. If Odyssial had not had extreme power, we would not be able to play in the context of its (good at bad) consequences.
She's powerful now, but that's after thousands of years as a Sidereal Elder. We don't know precisely what esoteric quality allowed her to temper Odyssial's madness. Really, though, if we want Moon to shine, we have to give her the chance to do so. She's the Blood of the Shogun, that counts for an awful lot.
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
You have been reading Rihaku's posts right? The souls of everyone would have been transported into the new Creation Odyssial was making.
Because he cares for everyone in it and wants them to move to his new Creation? Seriously he isn't trying to kill everyone and just wants to make their lives better.
The long term effects of Odyssial's actions would have prevented the Wracking from happen, keep in mind that he had been dead for centuries. We decided not to go for the option because we preferred others and didn't think that it would be good for Ulyssian. The Lathe of Heaven on the other hand was the culmination of an Age of work by Odyssial and an attempt to make everything better, created over millenia by the greatest-god king with perfect clarity and terrifyingly rational thought going into it's work.
Because we have friends here and are personally attached to Luseng? Seriously we know that tapping Odyssial's memories is going to take a while and by word of Rihaku Luseng can potentially offer benefits which offset not immediately going for Lea. I don't understand why you think that a vote for Clarity means immediately running like a bat out of hell. One of the main conflicts of this choice was always going to be reconciling our emotions with our new perspective.
And they are all that Odyssial wishes to save, the citizens of his new reality and the ones he wishes to protect. It's just that he takes this to a monstrous extent, please don't strawman and say that if we choose Clarity we will immediately think of mortals as dirt.
Because Ulyssian cares about them holy shit why have you been going on like this choice can suddenly turn him into a heartless monster. We care about them and want to be with them for all that we recognize that it is horribly inefficient.
Rihaku
The Internet
But... he never sacrificed millions of innocents, unless you mean the incidental damage Creation took when he was fighting at full strength against the Usurpation which was already happening. That was the point of my earlier post.
3E is actually a lot vaguer on that than 2E was. It's more of a general, "future sight tells the future but the future can always be changed through actions," instead of "only Exalts get to change the future."
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- USA
you assume everyone wants that
As opposed to squandering a Shogun out of spite? I don't think that's such a great leap to make.
What is this "Blood of the Shogun" and why is it important?
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- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
Moon is one of our Waifus AND is on the verge of becoming a defining intimacy so she'll kinda have to