Does it, really? Are you still the same person if you've been killed and perfectly resurrected or are you a perfect copy of who you were? Would you be willing to be killed if you knew you were going to be 'perfectly' resurrected?
[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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- exalted (white wolf)
Rihaku said that in response to this question:
It seems pretty clear that we can and still will focus on diplomacy when outside of Limit Break, which we will most of the time. If we want to do diplomacy, we can.
If we choose to. and we probably will because lots of people want to.
It does not lock us out of diplomacy. Does not. Nor does it lock us out of friendships or make us a robot.
With extra EXP, we even have more time to devote to gaining diplomatic skills!
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Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
While this is a good argument it kinda falls flat when you consider that souls are a thing in Exalted and all of the souls of the previous Creation would have been transported to Odyssial's utopia, so yes?
It is hard to argue against killing the viziers. I certainly don't expect Lily to take umbrage over that. She, after all killed a lot of people because they did bad things.
Most dying/suffering people are willing to choose this option. Creation is in such dire straights that most could be considered "dying" or "suffering" in no small part thanks to the Dragon-Bloods.
And yes, it will be a perfect resurrection and not just a copy. Odyssial did it already.
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Will it be so awesome after Ulyssian arranges some version of the Red Wedding for a sympathetic Dynast? Will it be awesome after he breaks the Unconquered Sun? Will it be awesome when Moon walks away in disgust? Will it be awesome when he has Lealope seduce some Raksha prince he needs to exploit? Will it be awesome when he sacrifices convicts to bribe dubious gods and demons? Will it be awesome when he destroys the Realm and reduces it's proud Dragonblooded to his penitent cannon fodder? Will it be awesome when he has to make up with (or mind break) Flame because his bloodline is too valuable, and arrange for a breeding program like Any Syn was going to do? Will it be awesome to abandon Luseng to be overrun by Fae and beast men if it means Ulyssian can get stronger by focusing on something else?
It is easy to say playing the villain sounds cool, but once you actually start...
You're arguing against a strawman. I understand that he said that your initial strawman was awesome, but it doesn't have much to do with the actual debate. Rihaku has stated that even with Embrace the Clarity, it's not difficult to salvage our relationships, we will not lose our emotional connections to them or intimacies, and we will be perfectly able to continue diplomacy.
We do not have to take the evil path just because we go Red option. We do not lose control of the character.
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Odyssial could be that diplomat, or, at the least, the one who keeps that diplomat safe and well-advised. We have two allies with a heavily social focus, Nilul and Lily. We have plenty of resources for negotiation, and plenty of power to kill those who will not listen to reason.
That sounds very cool, yes. I always considered Luseng a waste of time, a meaningless diversion that does not help us achieve our goals.
The winning condition has always been a combination of (A) control the Sword of Creation. (B) reunite with Lealope to get all the goodies nessisary to slaughter all opposition.
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If you are actually your soul, why does it matter that mortals in Creation die? After all, the soul reincarnates.
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The Sidereal curse only affects them when they work in groups (and only porpotionally at that), and I would like to remind you the God and the Incarnae are two separate groups and nowhere does it state that they intervened to "keep creation as is", they intervened because its their job to put down huge Creation destroying threats which Odyssial happened to be since HE was causing more damage to Creation than the Sids and DBs at the time AND he refused to stop (and since the Lathe wasn't finished he would have lost everything when he caused Creation to go Kablooey)
Ok just stop arguing, you're probably helping the other side more than us
Because "personality death" due to no memories upon reincarnation.
Ulyssian focus on socializing? When he has people like Lea, Nilul ad Lily or that? When he hates doing so because it's time he could better use training? When embracing clarity is specifically said to be focusing on getting stronger?
OCC you expect people to spend XP on social stuff when we still have Anys, Hell and (probably) heaven and the underworld to worry about, have to worry about Sorcery to buy, Sorcerous workings to do, etc?
When we could have the people actually specialized at that kind of stuff work their magic while we get stronger so we don't get killed by everyone who will want Ody's reincarnation dead before he fully regains his power(which is nearly everyone old enough to remember him).
I'm talking about in the future where we might do a more general limit break around her. Remember one of the advantages of having Lily as an Ally is that she can mitigate our limit break. Likely though fighting us given we only had a minor intimacy with her. And people have said that if we leave Luseng we could take her with us to mitigate future limit breaks.
OCC you expect people to spend XP on social stuff when we still have Anys, Hell and (probably) heaven and the underworld to worry about, have to worry about Sorcery to buy, Sorcerous workings to do, etc?
When we could have the people actually specialized at that kind of stuff work their magic while we get stronger so we don't get killed by everyone who will want Ody's reincarnation dead before he fully regains his power(which is nearly everyone old enough to remember him).
I'm talking about in the future where we might do a more general limit break around her. Remember one of the advantages of having Lily as an Ally is that she can mitigate our limit break. Likely though fighting us given we only had a minor intimacy with her. And people have said that if we leave Luseng we could take her with us to mitigate future limit breaks.
Yes, because we're getting twice as much Exp? If people don't care enough about diplomacy to spend Exp on it when we have all that extra Exp, I don't think they'll care enough to do it when we -lose- hundreds of thousands of EXP.
It lets us have the necessary power and diversify into social stuff.
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If it was this simple, why not simply rework reincarnation to not scrub memories?
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What do you think "playing the supervillain" entails other than choosing to do morally dubious things because they are expedient? We don't have to make those choices, but then what is the point of embracing Odyssial's power and methods if we go right back to an inconsistent, wishy-washy course where ruthlessness and sentimentality win and lose randomly?
Granted inconsistency and bipolar behavior are a curse of Quests by their nature...
Guess what, the Icarnae betraying the Primordials is the reason Creation is in the state it is now. They did it to get access to the Cosmic X-Box. And when Odyssial tried to take that away, they killed him. Don't act like they have the moral superiority here. The Icarnae did it to save their own asses.
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It won't harm our relationships in the short run. The long run is another matter entirely, especially if the personal consequences for them are more severe than merely being splattered with blood and then ignored entirely during a long-awaited reunion.
That's not even getting into our less close allies. Like Zao. Anys Syn would absolutely love to turn him, and this is the kind of thing that may make him question the wisdom of his choices. Proof that the Solars, or least Odyssial, are fundamentally flawed. That corruption and madness is baked in at the start rather than something that emerged because of time and circumstances.
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
Yes? For all that Frey and Bolton were dicks the Red Wedding was pretty awesome.
Well that's so far off in the future it isn't even funny but as it would likely be one of the last steps before remaking creation into a utopia yes?
That's why you elevate her into a defining tie and keep people like her and Lily around to temper his ambition.
No but given that that decision would be entirely up to Lealope given the massive difference in power I really don't see why it would be all that objectionable.
Like he wouldn't just give them an Intimacy of Terrified Helplessness instead.
The Autarchy must rise! More seriously that's far in the future and The Realm comprises such a powerful and populous amount of Creation that destroying it while 50 dooms ravage it isn't something Ulyssian would do without hesitation. I mean if the Scarlet Empress returns riding on her new husbando then going full Odyssial would probably be the best possible option.
I'll just be wondering how we managed to break through the heavy duty conditioning that Anys doubtlessly has in place by now, Immaculate Grandmasters are hard to break. I would be interested in a reconciliation with everyone's favorite shonen protagonist though.
You see this is where you start campaigning for staying in Luseng in the next vote.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Because it is one of the hard laws in the actual rulebooks in all the editions (or at least I think it was in the first edition too). "No resurrection". Odyssial is the only one to ever to break that rule, and only with enormous effort at the apex of his power. Even then, it was not perfect and wouldn't have been even with Adamant Sorcery that would have boosted it if chosen in the character creation.
We are not getting into the mindset of slaying few people to save many. That is not what this option is about.
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Rihaku
The Internet
Yeah, that's not happening. Flame is your enemy, now and forever, protected by social perfects.
Looks at his intimacies
Getting stronger in one f his defining principles while a dislike of social interaction is a major one.
Focusing on Social stuff is nearly
unthinkable to him when he could be using that time to get stronger. Hell Odyissial had Millennia to pick up some social skill and he had freaking the social expert Lea as his wife. Yet he still didn't chose to do that because that would take time away from training and getting stronger.
Wait can't we get limit for going against our intimacies? So if we focus on social stuff instead of getting stronger wouldn't that make us gain limit?
I'm pretty sure tracking down the soul of someone that died, implanting it in a body that's identical to the old one and then giving them the old person's memories is actually possible in Exalted. It just doesn't count as a resurrection.
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
Because that doesn't solve the underlying problems that make Creation such a shithole and would just be putting a bandaid on the problem.
Well damn.
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Why would I do that? It would be massively inconsistent with the prior vote because it is so blatantly suboptimal a course of action given Odyssial's priorities, methods, and resources.